Kevin led the group discussion to review the comments submitted about the progress of Implementing web Accessiiblity.First was a suggestion, widely supported to tighten up the wording on the Key Actions. Next were considerations of section heading titles and the title/subtitle of the document itself. The section heading "Discussion" was considered dubious in terms of translation. After a brainstorm, "More detail" was chosen as a temporary stand in to see how it sits in context. The document title and subtitle were reviewed next. Long discussion made the points that this is not really a "How To" document but it is more than a "consideration" so we decided to try dropping the subtitle and expanding the title to "Implementing Web Accessibility Across Organizations and Projects." We agreed to sleep on it and revisit in the near future. Next there was consideration of other wiki comments, inlcuding the suggestion to point to WAI-IG and WAI-Engage as Related resoruces for "Sharing..." section. The suggestion was rejected as WAI-Engage is not yet sufficiently robust to provide good support. next steps are for EO participants to continue to monitor. Updates will be posted by Tuesday and Kevin will point to sections where he wants specific considerations and comments.
Wilco joined the call to discuss progress on the Wcag-EM Report tool. The example we looked at was one with dummy data and new functionality. The text updates suggested last week were added and Wilco demonstrated the new functions including a "macro-add" feature that people liked but that caused a bit of confusion. Suggestions were made for function clarity and definition, the need for Tool Tips on all buttons, excessive use of color indication, the expectation of expand/collapse behavior based on previous widgets, etc. A new prototype based on this input will be available on Tuesday for review. Wilco asked those who suggested for the macro-add function to be grouped individually on the page bring him suggestions about how they would want that to look.By next week, expect to wrap up functionality and move to UI and fine tuning wording and usability. Shawn extended kudos for the excellent work and reminded EO to watch Upcoming Meetings section of the wiki to keep up with current work. Thanks all!
<shawn> (Comments: https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Planning_and_Managing_Web_Accessibility/Feedback )
Kevin: Gone through the plan and
edited down quite a bit. Reviewed comments, in some cases
made changes. Others need discussion and clarification. Some
specific discussion items are here in order.
... Will start with the broad overview comments such as Sharron's comments about Key Action wording...specifically the Roles part.
<shawn> +1 to sharron to edit down the key actions wording
<Andrew> +1 also - the discussion can pick up the detail
Kevin: we are trying to provide quick, clear actions so if people read nothing else they have this guidance
Sharron: Yes and I think it is a
brilliant approach, just may want to consider the level of
verbosity and hone it down a bit.
... For example it seems that listing all the departments that may have a role is unecessary in the Key Actions list and could even be a distraction. A reader might think "oh, we are small, don't have thsoe departments, this section is not for me."
Andrew: When the Actions get as long as three lines, it becomes more difficult to quickly scan. Since the Discussion section expands, it would be best to edit it down as much as possible.
Kevin: Good, I will review Key Actions to ensure they are as tight as possible. Next there was a consideration of the heading title "Discussion" Sharron captured the list of brainstorms on the feedback page.
<shawn> +1 for word other than discussion
<shadi> Brainstorm from previous meeting: [[
<shadi> details, detailed guidance
<shadi> diving deeper
<shadi> the full scoop
<shadi> applied knowledge
<shadi> more info
<shadi> applying these points
Sharron: Helle had mentioned it as a translation issue, but even in English it does not meet people's expectation.
<shadi> ideas into action
<shadi> Skills Application
<shadi> deeper understanding
Shawn: maybe something around "Implementing..." right now.
Kevin: Taking Action
<Howard> MOre on Roles & Responsibiity
Shadi: It actually is a discussion however as Sharron noted and Andrew reiterated. In my view, it is a continuation of the Key Actions.
Shawn: Explanation. Details
<Howard> I like "explanation"
<paulschantz> Key Actions Application
Kevin: Possible "More on Roles and Responsibility..." More on whatever the main topic is
Shadi: That is the approach we took in "How PWD..."
<shadi> [[Actions Brief - Further Background]]
Shawn: "More about [section title]" How do people feel about that?
Shadi: It makes it a little bit long, but does contextualize. Maybe think of the two titles together and find related headings. "Key Actions" and "Discussion" Need connection.
Kevin: Yes connection would be good.
Andrew: More about... will become very long with some of these titles. In some cases it seems too long.
<shadi> [[More about Determine Your Goal and Gather Support]]
Shawn: What if we truncate using key words?
Andrew: It changes the meaning
Shawn: Should we continue to brainstorm...?
Kevin: We can take this away
Shadi: A bit more brainstorming please
Sharron: I like the "Ideas into Action" concept
Andrew: It's like the discussions in WCAG Techniques that give more explanation
Shawn: Even though it doesn't sing, it is in fact an explanation, details,
Shadi: Let's look at single words - phrases often have an idiom aspect that is difficult to translate
<Andrew> further detail
Shadi: "Further" ties it to the previous section
<shadi> More Detail
<shadi> Key Actions - More Detail
Shadi: It doesn't sing either, but does it do the job?
<paulschantz> It dances
Shawn: If we are OK with something that doesn't sing, maybe just "More"
Sharron: If we add "Further" then discussion is OK
<Andrew> I still like plain old 'discussion' - think we need to ask Helle and/or Sylvie what is the translation issue
Howard: I don't see the problem with having a long subtitle, maybe we should have a vote
Shadi: Seems to have boiled down to "More Detail" "More about...section title" or plain old "discussion"
<Andrew> 'more detail' is ok too
<shawn> three options: 1. leave Discussion, 2. More detail, 3. More about [establshing roles & re...]
<Howard> How about "don't open this?"
<Andrew> vote for 1 (then for 2)
<shawn> OK with 2 (don't like 1)
Sharron: vote for 2 (and then 3)
<shadi> 2, 3, then 1
<shawn> (think 3 would be too long)
<Wayne> no objection to going with 2
Shawn: OK any objections with going with #2?
Howard: OK, sure
<shawn> current title:
<shawn> Implementing Web Accessibility
<shawn> How to integrate accessibility into web projects and bring about organizational change
Kevin: The next topic to discuss is talking about the title of the document. It seems OK as a title so far but would like to open it up to others to consider title and subtitle.
Shawn: Look at how we have done subtitles elsewhere, the font color is not consistent. We have a style for that.
Kevin: Yes this is not the final
Shawn: The subtitle, this is
about more than "web projects" yes?
... isn't it about bringing accesibility into your organziation?
Shadi: But is it only for organizations? What about an individual web sites and projects, not assicated with an organziation? Is the document not for them?
Shawn: If so, it should add to the subtitle but as it is now, seems incomplete.
Kevin: Does the document have enough about organizational change to include in the subtitle?
<shawn> brainstorming: How to integrate accessibility into organizations and web projects
<Andrew> +1 to Wayne - mostly organisational (or large projects within an organisation), not really for small website development
Wayne: I actually do think the focus is on the organization - if you look at the Key Actions they are overwhelmingly addressing organizational challenges. I think this is about implementing an organizational web site.
<shawn> brainstorming: How to integrate accessibility across organizations or in specific web projects
Shadi: Devil's advocate...an individual at an agency is commissioned to make a web site and wants to make it accessible, and must convince team. This could help support that effort.
Andrew: This is really not about the corner web shop. It is a consideration of the organizational buy-in needed to make change.
Shawn: Other people may still get something out of the document, but since the main actions are for large organizitions, that should be the focus of the title.
Shadi: But if we emphasize the large organization, others who may get something from it will not even bother.
<shawn> brainstorming: How to integrate accessibility across organizations or in specific web projects
Shadi: But, is this in fact a "How To" document?
Wayne: integrating accessibility across organizations or in specific web projects
Shawn: But consider it with the title
<shawn> brainstorming: Implementing Web Accessibility: Guidance on integrating accessibility across organizations or in specific web projects
Sharron +1 Guidance
<Andrew> +1 to Guidance ...
<Howard> sounds wordy
Kevin: Reiterating that as a subtitle it is likely to be wordy cause it needs to say more
AnnaBelle: I like How To...
Shawn: Did you hear Shadi's reason?
<Andrew> not really 'how to' which implies a step-by-step
Shadi: This actually is not a very how to-ish document. Compare to Tutorials.
AnnaBelle: Well, that's a good reason.
<shadi> [[Implementing Web Accessibility: Guidance on integrating accessibility across organizations and web projects]]
<shawn> or Implementing Web Accessibility: Guidance for integrating accessibility across organizations or in specific web projects
Howard: I see it as a step-by-step How To document of how to implement accessibility in this context, don't see a problem with How To
Wayne: From a social organizational structure perspective, I kind of agree with Howard. It doesn't tell you to how to write code but it does tell you how to make change within an organziation.
<Andrew> Wayne is right, but our other "how to's ..." are more tutorial like
Sharron: I am convinced, Shadi this is not a How to in the same sense we have used it elsewhere.
<shawn> or Implementing Web Accessibility: A guide to integrating accessibility across organizations or in specific web projects
Wayne: So how about a Guide To
<Andrew> a guide to ... / guidance on ...
<Howard> I like "a guide to"
AnnaBelle: I like it too
Kevin: Guide to is strong, here is your ticket to implementing
<paulschantz> The document read like a playbook for PMs and accessibility evangelists
<Andrew> maybe 'a guide to ...' is more direct (though I prefer 'guidance on ...')
<Howard> How about "Not a guide to ... "
Shadi: I have some concern
<shawn> Shawn & Shadi slight concern that "A guide" maybe overpromising
Shawn: Are we overpromising
<Andrew> +1 to shawn & shadi re overpromising
Shadi: this is one of the things
that we have been back and forth upon, we are really only
scratching the surface.
... so Wayne, with your expertise now, does this document give you anything?
Wayne: It is a really neat outline of how to go about it.
<Andrew> considerations for implementing ...
Sharron: So what about "An outline for implementing..."
Andrew: It doesn't imply that everything is here, only that it is something to consider
Shadi: We do have resources allocated for the step-by-step for specific roles that will be shorter, briefer and may be able to be more snazzy in the title
<Howard> "A process for"
<shawn> Implementing Web Accessibility: An outline for integrating accessibility across organizations or in specific web projects
Shadi: The issue with "process" is that we are trying to distance ourselves from any particular development process or method.
<shawn> Implementing Web Accessibility: Guidance on integrating accessibility across organizations or in specific web projects
<shawn> 3. Implementing Web Accessibility: Considerations for integrating accessibility across organizations or in specific web projects
Sharron: Guidance seems stuffy and smug. A Guide is more down to earth.
<shawn> 4. Implementing Web Accessibility: A framework for integrating accessibility across organizations or in specific web projects
Jan: Considerations is in IDEA law so it may resonate with educators
<AnnaBelle> I like "framework"
<Andrew> 'framework' also sounds too definitive
Jan: You are trying to give consideration to the varied needs, taking into account all the different moving parts
<Andrew> +1 to jan's suggestions re 'considerations'
AnnaBelle: I like framework and how to because that is what I want, but I realize that is not what it is
<AnnaBelle> I think "guidance" does have a we're superior quality
<AnnaBelle> wouldn't go so far as smug though
Shawn: To me "framework" is too strong, but "considerations" is wimpy
Shadi: Then we are left with outline
<Andrew> +1 for considerations (then guidance) - it's what it is!
Howard: Forgetting about how people will react, what is this?
Shawn: Good question
<AnnaBelle> I like word "help"
<Andrew> help you consider the actions you might want to take
Howard: People have to feel there is some action they can take away from it
<Andrew> remember this is the subtitle - main title is strong
Shadi: "Considerations" makes me understand that these are things that I might overlook
Kevin: So coming back to what it is...it is not a HowTo, it is more than just considerations, it is an outline
<Andrew> an approach to ...
Shadi: For me this document lays a foundation
Paul: Regarding what it is, there seems to be two aspects to the scope. First, there are the specifics for a web project and the second is organizational change. Our ideal target seems to be a large organization, applying this to a web project and creating a template for future.
Andrew: An approach to what we are trying to achieve - integration.
<shawn> Implementing Web Accessibility: An approach to integrating accessibility across organizations or in specific web projects
<Howard> Like "approach"
<shawn> Implementing Web Accessibility: An approach to integrating accessibility across organizations and web projects
Paul: This document has a very specific audience
Shawn: How about approach? Does this bridge the gap of wimpy-smug-too prescriptive- question
<AnnaBelle> IMO "approach" is a bit whimpy
<Andrew> saying 'an' approach makes it a little less definitive, but implies guideance
Paul: These are the same
questions that people will bring
... approach goes in the right direction, but not perfect. may not find the perfect subtitle. maybe we need to drop it?
<paulschantz> +1 to shadi's suggestion
Shadi: It does not seem that we will find a good subtitle so how about the title change to "Implementing Accessibility across Organziations and Web Projects"
<shawn> Implementing Web Accessibility Across Organizations and Projects
<shawn> Implementing Web Accessibility Throughout Organizations and Projects
<shawn> Implementing Web Accessibility in Organizations and Projects
Shawn: I say we change it that for now and sleep on it
AnnaBelle: for what it's worth, I
don't like it.
... I like having a subtitle so that it leaves the title short and you can skim.
Shawn: Which subtitle did you like?
... but I am fine with sleeping on it.
Kevin: Suggestion to have staff connect to WAI Engage or WAI-IG for training support and a question of whether that has enough merit as a suggestion to further investigate?
Shadi: This section is
specifically about "Share Knowledge..." section, a suggestion
was to provide resources to maintain momentum.
... we were thinking more about internal support, and the suggestion was to link to external groups.
<Andrew> could also/alternatively be relevant to link WAI-IG under the 'skills & training'
Sharron: It was meant to be a suggestion to link to Related resources
<Andrew> Additional resources
<shawn> "Related resources" -> "Resources"
Shadi: Those sections are meant to be more in depth resources about the particular topic. Going to WAI-Engage in this case would not provide resources.
Andrew: But WAI-IG could be a place where you go for getting questions answered
Shadi: But would that not apply to all sections?
<Andrew> suggesting for skillsand training section
Shawn: I don't think at this
point we want to point people to WAI-Engage because as it is
now it is kind of a dead end
... unless we create a resource and encourage people to share with the world
... agree with Shadi
... Next steps? Kevin, if there are things we did not get to, send an email and encourage everyone to respond to anything you want more input on.
... and Shadi you have this on next week's agenda again?
Shadi: Yes the plan is to have an updated version available on Tuesday and ask for comment at that time. We took care of many issues about position and structure today and next week's review will be more detail and specifics. We will make them clear in the wiki
Shawn: WCAG-EM Report Tool
Shadi: We built more functionality into this page. Have done the text updates on many - not all - of the issues raised last week. We want today to discuss what we call micro-add
<paulschantz> I still love this.
Shadi: there is a button that can be expanded "Show results for individual web pages" and then one called "macro-add" if you want to add the results for multiple pages at a time.
<AnnaBelle> I second Paul
<Andrew> looks interesting, but complicated
Shadi: the idea is to consider the function itself. We think it is important to be able to do this rather than do each one at a time when there are global failures.
<paulschantz> Love the idea of copying, why not just use the word "copy"?
Shawn: I missed the explanation, I clicked on add macro and then clicked again to get out of it. I was just playing with it trying to figure it out. It is, I agree it is an importantfunctionality
<Andrew> multiple 'add macro' clicks keeps adding homepages
Shadi: Good point about expecting expand/collapse since we use that often
<paulschantz> again, this all makes perfect sense to me
Wayne: I don't know what the
buttons do because I can't get enlarged tool tips
... When I click Show individual...there are buttons on teh right and I don't know what they are.
... is the second step on one of those buttons?
Shadi: Most of the buttons have some kind of tool tips, and they will be added probably omitted in interest of time.
Paul: It appears that macro
result is a duplication of the function of the checkboxes on
the left. If you check those, does it apply to all of the
... so the macro result will only add the specific SC is that correct?
Kevin: I like this. But I think of the use case and how would I do this? You have the capacity to add in items from your sample and comment. So this provides the ability to add the comment to multiple pages and how is it merging with comments already made?
Kevin: can you add multiple
comments for 1 SC? It seems to flip the function around
... For each SC you can choose a page. Now instead of many pages to one SC, it seems you can add multiple comments to each SC
... will that not introduce a level of confusion or is it adding something really really good? I am not sure at this point.
<paulschantz> Exactly my feeling.
<shadi> [[Add result to multiple page]]
Paul: Yes, I was trying to say that as well. The name "macro-add" is not clear. I think you should keep both functions but need to describe each more clearly.
Shawn: OK, one comment related to
this is the fact that even to be able to process, it would help
if that function had its own grouping.
... can you put a box around that somehow?
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask others about colors and to say separate macro box
Shadi: So you want to differentiate and that is on our list to do.
Wilco: let me know what you think it should look like? If you have thoughts on that, please offer them
Shawn: Maybe shading...but I have a question about how it is used now. The colors change as you enter a result. What reactions do people have to that?
Paul: You need to have a color
change there to indicate it is separate from the other
... it lets you know that it has been checked and what the outcome is.
Shadi: It is easier for skimability
<Andrew> change of shading works well for me (indifferent about text colour changing too)
<Howard> it provides feedback that something has changed
Wilco: Not exactly subtle
<paulschantz> I strongly support the use of color or some other indicator (an icon, whatever)
Shadi: What if it was more subtle than having the entire background and text change happen?
Shawn: When I am looking at a
report, I want to able to skim and locate specifics but looking
at this it is too much of a change...maybe not change the text
color, only the background.
... it is clever and neat I want to acknowledge that, but a bit overwhelming.
Shadi: Individual pages? Should they have color coding as well?
<Andrew> yes - or some other colour indicator to match
Shawn: I think just the word, but don't feel strongly
Andrew: I think 3 or 4 of us are in favor of the color coding
<Wayne> there is a luminosity contrast problem with the red on red
Shadi: Yes I think we agree to use color but to be a bit more subtle
Shadi: when you have the macro-add open, there is an input called Page Handle and if you start typing, it will select the page from your sample
<paulschantz> yes, typeahead feature is nice
Andrew: If I choose the dropdown rather than typing ahead, it allows me to choose another page handle
<Andrew> I can select multiple handles
Shadi: The first time this appeared was in Step 2, Explore and there is a widget with Component and we got the feedback that it was unclear what was the webpage and what was the handle. The handle is meant to be a short version of the full page title or URL
<Andrew> handle = 'short name'
Shadi: is that clear?
<Andrew> short name is more descriptive (handle needs explanation - for some of us at least)
Howard: Maybe URL rather than webpage and short name rather than handle
<paulschantz> +1 to andrew "page name" suggestion
Shadi: So if we have page name rather than page handle would that be clear Andrew?
Andrew: or "short name"
Shadi: So there needs to be a bit of instruction
<paulschantz> Very nice work!
Shadi: OK we got good feedback, thanks everyone. Wilco and I will continue to work on this. Please put comments on GitHUb if you use it or the wiki.
<shawn> kudos to Wilco & Shadi -- lots of neat functionality !!! (we just need to make it understandable ;)
Shadi: there is also a copy function for those who want to look ahead, there is a copy function. We will have a new version for you to look at next week that will wrap up functionality and be able to consider interaction, wording, etc
Shawn: Kudos to Wilco and Shadi
Shawn: between now and Tuesday keep looking at these things and those that we did not have time to talk about. We do have a list on the wiki page about what to work on each week so check in on the Meetings page.Thanks everyone!