13:59:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
13:59:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/08/21-i18n-irc
13:59:50 <aphillip> trackbot, prepare teleconference
13:59:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:59:54 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 4186
13:59:54 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
13:59:55 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
13:59:55 <trackbot> Date: 21 August 2014
14:00:12 <aphillip> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2014Aug/0042.html
14:00:17 <aphillip> Chair: Addison Phillips
14:00:21 <aphillip> Scribe: Addison Phillips
14:00:26 <aphillip> ScribeNick: aphillips
14:00:32 <aphillip> ScribeNick: aphillip
14:00:37 <aphillip> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:00:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/21-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:00:42 <aphillip> agenda+ RADAR
14:00:47 <aphillip> agenda+ Encoding LC
14:01:05 <aphillip> agenda+ Pre-defined counter styles
14:01:11 <David> David has joined #i18n
14:01:39 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has now started
14:01:46 <Zakim> +aphillip
14:02:09 <leandro> leandro has joined #i18n
14:02:30 <Zakim> +??P10
14:02:43 <r12a> zakim, dial richard
14:02:43 <Zakim> ok, r12a; the call is being made
14:02:45 <Zakim> +Richard
14:02:48 <aphillip> zakim, ??P10 is David
14:02:48 <Zakim> +David; got it
14:03:06 <Zakim> +leandro
14:03:23 <r12a> zakim, who's here?
14:03:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see aphillip, David, Richard, leandro
14:03:25 <Zakim> On IRC I see leandro, David, RRSAgent, Zakim, aphillip, r12a, fantasai, trackbot
14:03:35 <plh> plh has joined #i18n
14:03:44 <Zakim> +Plh
14:04:40 <aphillip> Topic: Agenda
14:04:43 <aphillip> agenda?
14:05:24 <koji> koji has joined #i18n
14:05:42 <aphillip> Topic: Action Items
14:05:53 <aphillip> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
14:06:52 <Zakim> +koji
14:07:54 <matial> matial has joined #i18n
14:08:26 <aphillip> close action-332
14:08:26 <trackbot> Closed action-332.
14:08:35 <aphillip> Topic: Info Share
14:08:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/21-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:08:47 <JcK> JcK has joined #i18n
14:08:55 <aphillip> leandro: coming to TPAC
14:09:26 <aphillip> richard: new community group
14:09:36 <aphillip> ... looking for members
14:09:37 <Zakim> +JcK
14:09:50 <aphillip> ... character description group
14:09:51 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/community/cdl/
14:09:59 <aphillip> ... describing characters based on strokes
14:11:01 <Zakim> +??P18
14:11:11 <matial> zakim, ??p18 is me
14:11:11 <Zakim> +matial; got it
14:11:27 <aphillip> JcK: ietf vs unicode issue about precombined marks suspended by not gone away
14:11:47 <aphillip> agenda+ ietf v. unicode discussion
14:12:08 <aphillip> zakim, take up agendum 1
14:12:08 <Zakim> agendum 1. "RADAR" taken up [from aphillip]
14:12:40 <aphillip> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Review_radar#Scheduled_Last_Call_reviews
14:13:03 <aphillip> zakim, take up agendum 2
14:13:03 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Encoding LC" taken up [from aphillip]
14:13:21 <JcK> Especially if it is to be an action item, that should be more like "new apparently precombined characters without decompositionss" or words to that effect.  A different version would be whether Unicode "characters
14:13:46 <r12a> plh? muted?
14:14:50 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/docs/encoding/encoding-doc.html#issue-26154
14:15:04 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/docs/encoding/encoding-doc.html
14:15:11 <JcK> are language and phonetically independent within a script (as described in Section 2.2 of the Standard) or the degree to which language, phonetic use, and other usage issues that cannot be detected by a reader with no context are significant.
14:15:34 <aphillip> (addison summarizes)
14:16:16 <aphillip> richard: want to reach CR by 12 september
14:16:20 <aphillip> ... what is outstanding?
14:16:27 <aphillip> ... working on clarifying, etc.
14:16:40 <aphillip> richard: going through disposition of comments
14:16:45 <aphillip> ... will help
14:16:47 <aphillip> ... two sections
14:16:53 <aphillip> .... first is the LC issues
14:17:13 <aphillip> ... two raised in bugzilla, rest on winter list
14:17:23 <aphillip> richard: second section is bugzilla items
14:17:44 <aphillip> ... mostly old
14:18:20 <aphillip> richard: anne not willing to work on the larger items
14:19:18 <aphillip> ... he sees this as on-going project without specific deadlines
14:19:35 <aphillip> ... don't know if we can defer
14:20:30 <aphillip> addison: don't know how we could correct later
14:20:47 <aphillip> richard: unicode violation text
14:21:00 <aphillip> ... ken whistler, chief editor, said "none of these are violations"
14:21:08 <aphillip> ... went further and suggested changes
14:21:12 <aphillip> ... anne will change
14:21:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/21-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:21:29 <aphillip> richard: another thing causing worry
14:21:40 <aphillip> ... things are not as clear cut on list of encodings and indexes
14:21:50 <aphillip> ... what characters in what codepoints, etc.
14:22:02 <aphillip> ... thought it came from survey
14:22:06 <aphillip> ... of all browsers
14:22:18 <aphillip> ... but seems to be based on older version of opera (12?)
14:22:48 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/tests/repository/encoding/indexes/results-indexes.en.php
14:24:22 <aphillip> addison: did discuss with Anne, many errors are of the same type
14:24:34 <aphillip> richard: above link is from martins tests which I adapted
14:25:15 <aphillip> ... for example 1253
14:25:17 <aphillip> http://www.w3.org/International/tests/repository/run?manifest=encoding/indexes&test=windows-1253_test
14:25:19 <r12a> windows 1253
14:25:19 <r12a> Firefox
14:25:19 <r12a> 0081 -> FFFD
14:25:21 <r12a> 0088 -> FFFD
14:25:23 <r12a> 008A -> FFFD
14:25:25 <r12a> 008C -> FFFD
14:25:27 <r12a> 008D -> FFFD
14:25:29 <r12a> 008E -> FFFD
14:25:31 <r12a> 008F -> FFFD
14:25:33 <r12a> 0090 -> FFFD
14:25:35 <r12a> 0098 -> FFFD
14:25:37 <r12a> 009A -> FFFD
14:25:39 <r12a> 009C -> FFFD
14:25:41 <r12a> 009D -> FFFD
14:25:43 <r12a> 009E -> FFFD
14:25:45 <r12a> 009F -> FFFD
14:25:47 <r12a> Chrome
14:25:49 <r12a> 00AA -> ª instead of FFFD
14:25:51 <r12a> IE
14:25:53 <r12a> 00AA -> ª instead of FFFD
14:25:55 <r12a> 00D2 -> F8FA instead of FFFD
14:25:57 <r12a> 00FF -> F8FB instead of FFFD
14:26:05 <r12a> windows 874
14:26:05 <r12a> Firefox
14:26:05 <r12a> 23 mismatches in rows 8 and 9
14:26:07 <r12a> Chrome
14:26:09 <r12a> 8 mismatches in rows D and F
14:26:11 <r12a> IE
14:26:13 <r12a> same as Chrome
14:27:04 <r12a> ibm866
14:27:04 <r12a> Firefox
14:27:04 <r12a> 001A -> 007F
14:27:05 <aphillip> addison: need to say what to do and get consensus on moving to it or allow variations
14:27:06 <r12a> 001C -> 001A
14:27:08 <r12a> 007F -> 001C
14:27:10 <r12a> Chrome
14:27:12 <r12a> replacement characters after 0080
14:27:14 <r12a> IE
14:27:16 <r12a> same as firefox
14:27:30 <aphillip> richard: bit of a shock
14:27:46 <aphillip> ... calls into question label choices
14:29:03 <aphillip> addison: need to survey the browsers?
14:29:36 <aphillip> JcK: claims of some of the wilder changes are troubling
14:31:16 <aphillip> addison: 1252 thing seems well established
14:31:33 <aphillip> ... multibyte mappings require deeper insight into what is actually happening
14:33:23 <aphillip> addison: any actions?
14:33:27 <aphillip> richard: plh?
14:33:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/21-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:34:02 <aphillip> richard: one option would be to deeply fork
14:35:19 <aphillip> addison: hard to fork because it forms a system
14:35:38 <aphillip> richrad: looked for references
14:35:43 <aphillip> ... mainly sectoin 6
14:35:47 <aphillip> ... utf-8
14:35:49 <aphillip> ... a few things
14:36:06 <aphillip> ... if just going to "normal" CR
14:36:22 <aphillip> ... could then go back to LC if needed to if tests found issues
14:36:52 <aphillip> plh: could work, but can't change things ref by html5
14:37:18 <aphillip> richard: mainly indexes and mainly details
14:37:28 <aphillip> ... check what css and html actrually need
14:38:03 <aphillip> addison: more references now than just the big 2
14:38:44 <aphillip> richard: css cares only about determine encoding, I think
14:39:20 <aphillip> richard: define "indexes and such" as the "registry part"
14:41:25 <aphillip> addison: if only the registyr part is subject to correction, won't cause problems to advance on CR and then correct later
14:41:53 <aphillip> plh: not a REC, so would work to fix if testing came back negative
14:42:08 <aphillip> ... did we address enough of issues to move to CR
14:42:12 <aphillip> richard: probably yes
14:42:41 <aphillip> addison: may know we have some flaws (bugzilla bugs on mbcs)
14:43:02 <aphillip> plh: put notes in CR version to call attention to that
14:43:07 <aphillip> ... on specific encodings
14:43:26 <aphillip> richard: don't know if IE will change as well?
14:44:45 <aphillip> plh: best way to get attention is to get CR
14:45:45 <aphillip> richard: obsolete word removal
14:45:54 <aphillip> ... provided option, but anne didn't like
14:47:10 <aphillip> addison: 26514 looks like it could be defer
14:47:20 <aphillip> plh: would agree that it could defer
14:48:09 <aphillip> addison: violation statement
14:48:20 <aphillip> "is not relevant"
14:48:40 <r12a> For the purposes of specifications using this specification, that
14:48:40 <r12a> registry is obsolete
14:48:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/21-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:48:58 <r12a> User agents actually use a subset of the IANA Character Sets registry in a particular way. This specification documents this to establish interoperability on the Open Web Platform. Specifications and applications using this specification must restrict themselves to the encodings as documented in this specification.
14:51:35 <r12a> Anne's preference: For the purposes of specifications using this specification, that registry no longer relevant.
14:52:45 <aphillip> addison: could fork and replace or bin that paragraph
14:53:13 <aphillip> JcK: reuse of lables with different meanings is more problematic
14:53:34 <aphillip> ... hard to tell what an implementation is doing when it sees a given label
14:53:42 <aphillip> ... which standard it follows
14:53:58 <aphillip> richard: already a real problem
14:54:35 <aphillip> plh: not looking for convergence... looking for everyone to use UTF-8
15:00:46 <plh> "Authors must use the utf-8 encoding and must use the ASCII case-insensitive "utf-8" label to identify it. "
15:00:46 <aphillip> addison: mention actual goal (UTF-8) in preface?
15:01:46 <r12a> New protocols and formats, as well as existing formats deployed in new contexts, must use the utf-8 encoding exclusively. If these protocols and formats need to expose the encoding's name or label, they must expose it as "utf-8".
15:03:29 <aphillip> richard: close remaining
15:03:35 <aphillip> ... press on with tests
15:03:42 <aphillip> ... get anne to do edits
15:03:52 <aphillip> ... and work on false statement
15:04:32 <aphillip> ... move towards CR
15:04:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/21-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:06:16 <Zakim> -Plh
15:06:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/21-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:06:43 <aphillip> agenda?
15:07:53 <aphillip> JcK: refocus the preface on moving to UTF-8 and the rest of this is legacy compatibility
15:08:15 <aphillip> richard: "is no longer relevant"
15:12:28 <aphillip> action: richard: kick off additional discussion with anne about preface wording
15:12:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-333 - Kick off additional discussion with anne about preface wording [on Richard Ishida - due 2014-08-28].
15:13:03 <aphillip> JcK: will suggest new text in the next hour
15:13:18 <aphillip> richard: will look into CR
15:13:18 <Zakim> -David
15:14:41 <aphillip> Topic: AOB?
15:14:46 <aphillip> agenda?
15:15:56 <aphillip> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:15:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/21-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:16:08 <Zakim> -matial
15:16:10 <Zakim> -leandro
15:16:12 <Zakim> -aphillip
15:16:14 <Zakim> -JcK
15:16:16 <Zakim> -koji
15:16:37 <aphillip> rrsagent, make minutes
15:16:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/21-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:16:54 <r12a> oh, one thing i forgot to mention in the infoshare - we published an updated WD of Predefined Counter Styles today !
15:17:03 <aphillip> Present: Addison, Richard, JcK, Leandro, Mati, Koji, PLH (guest)
15:17:10 <aphillip> Regrets: Felix
15:17:16 <aphillip> rrsagent, make minutes
15:17:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/21-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:17:52 <aphillip> zakim, who is here?
15:17:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see Richard
15:17:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see plh, David, RRSAgent, Zakim, aphillip, r12a, fantasai, trackbot
15:17:57 <aphillip> zakim, bye
15:17:57 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were aphillip, Richard, David, leandro, Plh, koji, JcK, matial
15:17:57 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n
15:18:03 <aphillip> rrsagent, make minutes
15:18:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/21-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:18:03 <r12a> zakim, drop richaard
15:18:08 <r12a> zakim, drop richard
15:18:08 <aphillip> rrsagent, bye
15:18:08 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/08/21-i18n-actions.rdf :
15:18:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: richard: kick off additional discussion with anne about preface wording [1]
15:18:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/08/21-i18n-irc#T15-12-28