20:55:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #indie-ui
20:55:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/08/20-indie-ui-irc
20:55:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:55:52 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #indie-ui
20:55:54 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be INDIE
20:55:54 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_Indie()5:00PM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
20:55:55 <trackbot> Meeting: Independent User Interface Task Force Teleconference
20:55:55 <trackbot> Date: 20 August 2014
20:56:04 <janina> agenda?
20:56:09 <janina> Meeting: IndieUI Task Force Teleconference
20:56:09 <janina> Chair: Janina_Sajka
20:56:09 <janina> agenda+ preview agenda with items from two minutes
20:56:09 <janina> agenda+ TPAC 2014 http://www.w3.org/2014/11/TPAC/
20:56:09 <janina> agenda+ Editor's Report
20:56:12 <janina> agenda+ Open Items with Web Apps' Editing TF [See below]
20:56:14 <janina> agenda+ Testing Conversation; Polyfills
20:56:17 <janina> agenda+ User Context Issues & Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/products/3
20:56:20 <janina> agenda+ Events Issues & Actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/products/2
20:56:23 <janina> agenda+  Other Business
20:56:25 <janina> agenda+ Be Done
20:56:41 <Zakim> WAI_Indie()5:00PM has now started
20:56:48 <Zakim> +??P0
20:57:10 <janina>  zakim, ??P0 is me
20:57:10 <Zakim> +janina; got it
20:57:16 <janina> zakim, take up item 1
20:57:16 <Zakim> agendum 1. "preview agenda with items from two minutes" taken up [from janina]
20:57:25 <Ryladog> Ryladog has joined #indie-ui
20:57:44 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
20:58:29 <BenjamP> zakim, [Microsoft] is benjamp
20:58:29 <Zakim> +benjamp; got it
20:58:50 <jasonjgw> jasonjgw has joined #indie-ui
20:59:14 <kurosawa> kurosawa has joined #indie-ui
20:59:35 <Zakim> +??P2
21:00:08 <Zakim> +Katie_Haritos-Shea
21:00:15 <Zakim> +[Apple]
21:00:31 <jcraig> Zakim, Apple is jcraig
21:00:31 <Zakim> +jcraig; got it
21:00:46 <jcraig> zakim, who is on the call?
21:00:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see janina, benjamp, ??P2, Katie_Haritos-Shea, jcraig
21:01:12 <Zakim> +??P4
21:01:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #indie-ui
21:01:19 <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
21:01:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see janina, benjamp, ??P2, Katie_Haritos-Shea, jcraig, ??P4
21:01:32 <jcraig> Zakim, ??P2 is Jason_White
21:01:32 <Zakim> +Jason_White; got it
21:01:33 <janina> zakim, ??P2 is Jason
21:01:33 <Zakim> I already had ??P2 as Jason_White, janina
21:01:40 <kurosawa> Zakim, ??P4 is me
21:01:40 <Zakim> +kurosawa; got it
21:01:49 <Ryladog> Scribe: Katie Haritos-Shea
21:01:59 <Ryladog> zakim, this will be WAI_Indie
21:01:59 <Zakim> ok, Ryladog, I see WAI_Indie()5:00PM already started
21:02:00 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
21:02:18 <Ryladog> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
21:02:28 <Ryladog> ScribeNick: Ryladog
21:02:47 <Zakim> +??P7
21:03:07 <Ryladog> trackbot, status?
21:03:33 <Ryladog> JS: Ben is joining us from WEbApps
21:03:51 <Ryladog> JS: Intro please in a sentnece ot two
21:04:07 <Ryladog> JS: I have been at W3C at 10 years or so
21:04:19 <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
21:04:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see janina, benjamp, Jason_White, Katie_Haritos-Shea, jcraig, kurosawa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Michael_Cooper (muted)
21:04:19 <Ryladog> JS: I am a perosnal and professional
21:04:35 <Ryladog> JW: I have been aound at W3C since 1999, I am also a consumer
21:06:14 <Ryladog> JC: I work at Apple, for over a decade or so, I have worked in WebApps. I am now working with Accessibility
21:06:23 <Ryladog> JS: James is out Tect Editor
21:06:37 <jcraig> s/Tect Editor/Spec Editor/
21:06:46 <Ryladog> TK: I am from Japan.....
21:07:21 <MichaelC> ack me
21:07:21 <Ryladog> RS: I work W3C at the W3C for over 10 years. I work on ARIA, SVG, HTML
21:07:48 <Ryladog> MC: I am the staff contact for the working group, as well as ARIA WG and others
21:08:11 <Ryladog> BP: I am glad to meet everyone. I am on the editing team at IE
21:08:40 <Ryladog> zakim, next item
21:08:40 <Zakim> agendum 2. "TPAC 2014 http://www.w3.org/2014/11/TPAC/" taken up [from janina]
21:09:20 <Ryladog> JS: Please register. We will be meeting. We are meeting Monday and Tuesday at the end of October
21:09:24 <jcraig> s/, for over a decade or so, I have worked in WebApps. I am now working with Accessibility/. Involved in W3C for a decade or so, not specific to accessibility: I have contributed to CSS, HTML, WebApps, etc and worked on a web rich text editing product prior to working full-time on Accessibility. Looking to make a mainstream solution that also works with accessibility but is not accessibility-specific./
21:09:35 <Ryladog> JS: MC we need to get an Agenda up
21:09:51 <Ryladog> JS: There will be a phone for remote attendees
21:10:02 <Ryladog> zakim, next item
21:10:02 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Editor's Report" taken up [from janina]
21:11:24 <MichaelC> ack me
21:11:41 <Ryladog> JC: For TPAC we need to be sure that there will be better audio support this year
21:12:03 <Ryladog> MC: That is a little out of our control, but they do pay attention to the issue
21:12:35 <Ryladog> JS: I think there were issues in China - bit it will never be like it was at Apple that year
21:13:19 <Ryladog> MC: Yes it should be a smaller rroom
21:14:33 <jcraig> s/bit it will never be like it was at /but don't expect the level of audio quality that we had at /
21:15:23 <Ryladog> JC: No edits since the last time. The only thing of note is that I am getting pushback on UI manipultors
21:15:52 <Ryladog> JC: One of the discussions is around some dumb protocol. I dont have a solution for that.
21:16:31 <Ryladog> JS: What are some of the concersn?
21:17:29 <Ryladog> JC: They are can we find another way to do this? Some scroll views - landing points - Microsoft, and other browser developers
21:18:34 <Ryladog> JC: One suggestion is have a scroll view proptcol for DOM control. This bit would be machine readable but not machine writable - which is exactlty the opossiye issue that ARIA has
21:19:10 <Ryladog> JC: Making it a protocol could make it more robust, It would have some benefits of the DOM
21:19:38 <Ryladog> JC: If you have a native scroll view you can read the native slider directly
21:20:37 <Ryladog> JW: Is there some kind of written summary, it sounds like an interesting alternative to what we have?
21:20:53 <Ryladog> JC: I have not had time to write it all down yet
21:21:10 <Ryladog> JC: This woukd then be outside of the scope of IndieUI or ARAI
21:21:21 <Ryladog> JC: I will write up the summary
21:22:18 <jcraig> s/dumb/DOM/
21:22:20 <Ryladog> JS: This sounds interesting. I am always for more robust. I do not think it
21:22:49 <Ryladog> JC: Dumb or DOM?
21:23:18 <Zakim> +Cooper
21:23:23 <jcraig> minutes said "dumb protocol"; intended DOM protocol. ;-)
21:23:32 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
21:23:37 <Ryladog> JS: Lets not worry about the where it will live at this poit
21:23:47 <Ryladog> JC: So that section may come out,
21:24:44 <janina> I'm having jitter!
21:24:51 <Ryladog> zakim, next item
21:24:51 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Open Items with Web Apps' Editing TF" taken up [from See below]
21:25:10 <Zakim> +??P7
21:25:20 <Zakim> -Cooper
21:27:33 <jasonjgw> Janina: interested in recommencing the discussion with Web Apps. It has been agreed in email that there will be multiple specs, and appears to be broad agreement that we will coordinate vocabulary.
21:27:36 <Zakim> -Katie_Haritos-Shea
21:28:11 <Zakim> -janina
21:28:14 <jcraig> zakim, who is noisy?
21:28:23 <MichaelC> http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer/commands-explainer.html
21:28:25 <Zakim> jcraig, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: benjamp (95%), kurosawa (10%)
21:28:36 <jcraig> zakim, mute kurosawa
21:28:36 <Zakim> kurosawa should now be muted
21:28:50 <jasonjgw> Ben: the Web Apps document is to be split into two so that intentions can be explained broadly with reference to the specs that will cover them.
21:29:08 <jasonjgw> This would refer to IndieUI, editing, etc.
21:29:08 <janina> zakim, call janina-mobile
21:29:08 <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
21:29:10 <Zakim> +Janina
21:29:17 <jasonjgw> Ben raised this on list and there were no objections.
21:29:29 <jasonjgw> (The message was cross-posted.)
21:30:39 <jasonjgw> The cross-posting isn't desirable but presently unavoidable.
21:31:40 <jasonjgw> James: it is necessary to have a specific rich text editing group. Contenteditable isn't sufficient for all use cases and there are implementation inconsistencies. Large-scale Web applications require more; a staged approach is necessary.
21:32:42 <jasonjgw> He agrees that there needs to be an editing-focused task force. The same interface/methodology should be amenable to extension beyond editing, where appropriate.
21:33:01 <jasonjgw> That is, it should be consistent with the handling of custom controls in non-editing contexts.
21:33:29 <jasonjgw> The editing task force should address the editor-specific aspects of the problem.
21:33:49 <jasonjgw> Ben: the explainer document should capture the editing-related requirements.
21:34:16 <jasonjgw> We need to show how the events are divided among specs. For example, having "undo" in IndieUI is potentially confusing.
21:34:33 <MichaelC> q+
21:35:13 <jasonjgw> Having similar/consistent interfaces for the event types (across the different specs) is desirable.
21:36:00 <jasonjgw> Michael notes a similar kind of document produced by the CSS working group.
21:36:07 <MichaelC> ack me
21:36:42 <jasonjgw> Ben: this needs to be done as quickly as possible, but may take longer than hoped. Making the events consistent with those defined elsewhere (i.e., the indie-ui events) would be a good beginning.
21:36:55 <jasonjgw> Drag and drop is a useful example.
21:37:22 <jasonjgw> James comments on the status of drag and drop and the modality-specific nature of it as currently specified.
21:38:26 <jasonjgw> James maintains that drag and drop needs to be generalized to different input modalities, e.g., speech recognition.
21:38:53 <jasonjgw> Ben: beforeInput is also currently under discussion.
21:40:56 <jasonjgw> James notes the use of content editable div-like components which can be used to enable dictation and the placement of input method windows. This functionality is suppored by platform APIs currently but needs to be made available to the Web.
21:41:49 <jasonjgw> Ben: the "explainer" document will set out the scope of the various specs and divide up the functionality, addressing how the components work together.
21:42:26 <jasonjgw> James suggests developing it under source control with multiple editors.
21:42:39 <jasonjgw> Janina expresses a preference for expanding it into a use cases and requirements document.
21:42:48 <jcraig> http://www.w3.org/TR/indie-ui-requirements/
21:44:14 <jasonjgw> Responding to a question from James, Ben clarifies that the use cases and intentions will be identified, and then an explanation given as to how the required functionality is divided between specs.
21:44:46 <jasonjgw> It is not anticipated that any one spec will cover an entire scenario. Example: a manipulator map widget can be built using technologies from several related specs.
21:45:23 <jasonjgw> James is concerned to avoid overlap in the resulting work.
21:45:42 <jasonjgw> Janina concurs: ongoing coordination will be needed.
21:46:19 <jasonjgw> James suggests that more work be done on editing prior to TPAC.
21:47:49 <jasonjgw> Ben is willing to work on such a document, adding material drawn from IndieUI requirements in cooperation with this group.
21:49:16 <jasonjgw> Ben and James clarify that this would be a very high-level document - a roadmap, as Janina describes it.
21:51:26 <jasonjgw> Janina suggests we are open to forming a larger task force or to whatever other coordination mechanism would facilitate the work.
21:52:57 <jasonjgw> zakim, next item
21:52:57 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Testing Conversation; Polyfills" taken up [from janina]
21:53:49 <jasonjgw> James: work has started on polyfill development. We're still hoping to have an early version by TPAC.
21:54:03 <jasonjgw> Dismiss request is the event targeted for the polyfill implementation.
21:54:33 <jasonjgw> There are others which are easy to use for authors, but difficult to write as polyfills without native events.
21:54:38 <jasonjgw> Example: media events.
21:55:36 <jcraig> Jason Kiss has started work on polyfill development for "dismissrequest" example with uitrigger.
21:55:43 <jcraig> agenda?
21:56:14 <MichaelC> ack me
21:56:39 <MichaelC> zakim, list attendees
21:56:39 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been janina, benjamp, Katie_Haritos-Shea, jcraig, Jason_White, kurosawa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Michael_Cooper, Cooper
21:56:50 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
21:56:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/20-indie-ui-minutes.html MichaelC
21:57:34 <MichaelC> s/I'm having jitter!/scribe: jasonjgw/
21:57:39 <MichaelC> scribeOptions: -final
21:58:03 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
21:58:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/20-indie-ui-minutes.html MichaelC
21:58:20 <Zakim> -jcraig
21:58:21 <Zakim> -benjamp
21:58:34 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
21:58:43 <Zakim> -Jason_White
21:58:44 <Zakim> -kurosawa
21:58:46 <Zakim> -Janina
21:58:46 <Zakim> WAI_Indie()5:00PM has ended
21:58:46 <Zakim> Attendees were janina, benjamp, Katie_Haritos-Shea, jcraig, Jason_White, kurosawa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Michael_Cooper, Cooper
21:59:15 <MichaelC> regrets: Andy_Heath
21:59:21 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
21:59:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/20-indie-ui-minutes.html MichaelC
21:59:24 <MichaelC> zakim, bye
21:59:24 <Zakim> Zakim has left #indie-ui
21:59:25 <MichaelC> rrsagent, bye
21:59:25 <RRSAgent> I see no action items