15:18:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
15:18:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/08/20-css-irc
15:18:25 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #css
15:18:31 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:18:31 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 42 minutes
15:18:35 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:26:00 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
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15:49:48 <glazou> Zakim, code?
15:49:48 <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
15:53:04 <AH_Miller> AH_Miller has joined #CSS
15:54:30 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:54:37 <Zakim> +mike_miller
15:55:04 <dael> dael has joined #css
15:55:45 <Zakim> +??P2
15:55:54 <glazou> Zakim, ??P2 is me
15:55:54 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
15:56:35 <Zakim> +dael
15:56:58 <murakami> murakami has joined #css
15:57:10 <glazou> hi Ms2ger
15:58:17 <glazou> murakami, congrats for the launch of the company
15:58:19 <alex_antennahouse> alex_antennahouse has joined #css
15:58:30 <murakami> Thanks!
15:58:34 <Zakim> +glenn
15:59:19 <Zakim> +??P12
15:59:21 <Zakim> + +1.479.764.aaaa
15:59:27 <leaverou> murakami: congrats from me too!
15:59:29 <florian> Zakim, ??P12 is me
15:59:29 <Zakim> +florian; got it
15:59:32 <antonp> antonp has joined #css
15:59:44 <Zakim> +SGalineau
15:59:52 <Zakim> -florian
15:59:53 <Zakim> + +1.206.675.aabb
15:59:54 <Zakim> + +1.917.207.aacc
16:00:00 <astearns> zakim, aabb is me
16:00:00 <Zakim> +astearns; got it
16:00:02 <dauwhe> Zakim, aacc is me
16:00:02 <Zakim> +dauwhe; got it
16:00:13 <Zakim> +Lea
16:00:17 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
16:01:09 <arybka> arybka has joined #css
16:01:24 <florian> florian has left #css
16:01:25 <florian> florian has joined #css
16:01:30 <Zakim> +??P28
16:01:31 <Zakim> +plinss
16:01:38 <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
16:01:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see mike_miller, glazou, dael, glenn, +1.479.764.aaaa, SGalineau, astearns, dauwhe, Lea, ??P28, plinss
16:01:40 <murakami> zakim,??P28 is me
16:01:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see florian, arybka, tantek, antonp, alex_antennahouse, murakami, dael, AH_Miller, dauwhe, dbaron, Zakim, RRSAgent, glazou, tommyjtl_, darktears, Ms2ger, gsnedders,
16:01:40 <Zakim> ... paul___irish, liam, shepazu, glenn_, dholbert, CSSWG_LogBot, Bert, ato, birtles, Teoli__, nikos_office, ed, kangil, dwim, krijnhoetmer, fantasai, mihnea___, abucur__, amtiskaw,
16:01:45 <Zakim> ... renoirb, achicu_____, timeless, astearns, Hixie, TabAtkins, lmclister_____, jacobg______, logbot, alexmog, mvujovic____, slightlyoff, sgalineau, plinss, projector, shans,
16:01:45 <Zakim> ... leaverou
16:01:45 <Zakim> +murakami; got it
16:01:58 <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aadd
16:02:10 <Zakim> +??P31
16:02:15 <Zakim> +Bert
16:02:54 <bkardell_> bkardell_ has joined #css
16:03:06 <Zakim> + +1.631.398.aaee
16:03:30 <antonp> Zakim, ??P31 is me
16:03:30 <Zakim> +antonp; got it
16:03:33 <Zakim> +Liam
16:03:54 <Zakim> + +aaff
16:04:13 <dael> glazou: Let's start.
16:04:14 <Zakim> -Lea
16:04:19 <SimonSapin> Zakim, +aaff is me
16:04:19 <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
16:04:21 <Zakim> + +1.301.526.aagg
16:04:22 <SimonSapin> maybe
16:04:25 <dael> glazou: Extra items?
16:04:31 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #css
16:04:33 <jacobg______> jacobg______ has left #css
16:04:35 <dael> glazou: I have one.
16:04:41 <koji> koji has joined #css
16:04:50 <dael> glazou: We're not far from the F2F and we need to add topics on the wiki
16:05:02 <dael> glazou: Please spend a few minutes thinking about it and adding items.
16:05:06 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Aug/0194.html
16:05:06 <dael> Topic: COunter Styles
16:05:09 <jacobg______> jacobg______ has joined #css
16:05:13 <dael> TabAtkins: It was pub as LC a year ago.
16:05:33 <Zakim> +dbaron
16:05:37 <dael> TabAtkins: When the period ended, there was still lots of issues being produced. We think it's stable now, so we need to pub again.
16:05:51 <Zakim> + +1.415.231.aahh
16:05:54 <dael> TabAtkins: Obv there's subtantive changes, so we want another LC. Standard 4 weeks I think
16:05:55 <alex_antennahouse> i think 526 aagg is me
16:06:09 <koji> zakim, +1.415.231.aahh is me
16:06:09 <Zakim> +koji; got it
16:06:16 <dael> glazou: DoC shows mostly green. I saw Xidoran (sp?) a few messages to the list.
16:06:23 <Zakim> +??P43
16:06:29 <dael> TabAtkins: I think the last was "have you pub a new draft" but let's see
16:06:37 <dael> TabAtkins: Most recent were June and they were in the DoC
16:06:38 <MaRakow> MaRakow has joined #CSS
16:06:50 <Rossen_> Rossen_ has joined #css
16:06:58 <dael> glazou: He has one on the 29th of July. Was it addressed?
16:07:03 <dael> TabAtkins: That was the can you do a new LC.
16:07:11 <dael> glazou: No, there was one thing to be fixed.
16:07:19 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:07:19 <dael> TabAtkins: Yeah. Those were typos and they were fixed.
16:07:21 <dael> glazou: Okay.
16:07:30 <dael> glazou: Opinions or qs about publishing?
16:07:35 <MaRakow> Zakim, [Microsoft] is me
16:07:35 <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
16:07:37 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:07:42 <dael> ??: I'm in favor
16:07:44 <astearns> +1 to publish
16:07:44 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:07:45 <dael> glazou: Me too.
16:07:54 <dael> s/??/Bert
16:07:56 <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
16:07:57 <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
16:08:05 <sgalineau> no objection
16:08:07 <dael> florian: I haven't been able to see details
16:08:13 <dael> dbaron: I'm in favor. I'd like to see it go to CR
16:08:22 <dael> TabAtkins: Me too, but per our req we need another CR
16:08:23 <Zakim> +ChrisL
16:08:26 <florian> … But at a high level it looked fine
16:08:28 <dael> Rossen_: I just joined, what's this?
16:08:30 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
16:08:30 <ChrisL> +1 to publish
16:08:32 <dael> glazou: Counter Styles
16:08:38 <dael> Rossen_: It's fine.
16:08:42 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:09:04 <dael> RESOLVED: New LCWD for Counter Styles
16:09:05 <Bogdan_Brinza> Bogdan_Brinza has joined #css
16:09:15 <dael> TabAtkins: I'll put it together this afternoon, bert
16:09:18 <dael> Bert: Okay.
16:09:19 <ChrisL> Bert, I will be travellig tomorrow so best if you do it
16:09:22 <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2014JulSep/0119.html
16:09:24 <dael> Topic: Backgrounds and Borders
16:09:29 <dael> TabAtkins: Is fantasai around?
16:09:33 <Zakim> +fantasai
16:09:37 <dael> [silence]
16:09:43 <dael> TabAtkins: I can do the pub request
16:09:50 <tommyjtl> tommyjtl has joined #css
16:09:58 <glazou> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-counter-styles/issues-lc-20130718
16:10:01 <dael> fantasai: We have a...we're ready for a new pub for B&B. Let me see if I can pull DoC
16:10:09 <tommyjtl> tommyjtl has joined #css
16:10:11 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-backgrounds-3/issues-lc-2014
16:10:52 <dael> fantasai: If you look at DoC...Main things we accepted most of the requests. We rejected comments from i18n about logical keywords because that's level 4. We regected focus rings as out of skope, but explained how it works.
16:11:04 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:11:13 <dael> fantasai: The main thing I'm concerned about is the spread radius formula that we didn't get a lot of feedback on, but all the comments were addressed
16:11:21 <dael> glazou: opinions? questions?
16:11:49 <dael> ??: i18n was okay with defer to level 4?
16:11:52 <dael> fantasai: Yes.
16:12:02 <dael> TabAtkins: I helped prep the draft, so I approve of publication.
16:12:05 <ChrisL> no objection then
16:12:21 <Bert> +1 to CR
16:12:22 <SteveZ> SteveZ has joined #css
16:12:33 <dael> ???: What was the problem with spread radius? Just no comments?
16:12:42 <glazou> s/???/ChrisL
16:12:44 <ChrisL> ok if its implemented then fine
16:12:53 <tommyjtl> tommyjtl has joined #css
16:12:59 <dael> fantasai: We believe it's correct, it's just no one on the author side said it was good or bad except bradK said he was skeptical and leaverou was in favor
16:13:24 <astearns> we implemented it for the margin-box value of shape-outside
16:13:37 <dael> ?: I gave feedback a while ago but didn't get a chance to look at it, but I think it would be okay.
16:13:40 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/WD-css3-background-20140116/ is 404
16:13:47 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-backgrounds-3/
16:13:48 <glazou> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-backgrounds/
16:13:49 <dael> ChrisL: Can I have a good like to the DoC?
16:13:57 <glazou> s/like/link
16:13:59 <dael> s/like/link
16:14:09 <Rossen_> s/?/MaRakow/
16:14:10 <MaRakow> s/?/MaRakow
16:14:25 <dael> glazou: Any obj against a new CR?
16:14:34 <ChrisL> +1 to publish
16:14:35 <dael> [silence]
16:14:41 <leaverou> +1 to publish
16:14:41 <dael> glazou: Are people in favor?
16:14:53 <dael> RESOLVED: New CR for Backgrounds and Borders
16:14:59 <tommyjtl_> tommyjtl_ has joined #css
16:15:05 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Aug/0214.html
16:15:05 <dael> Topic: Display Module
16:15:27 <dael> TabAtkins: We technically got a resolution to pub in January, but I've made enough changes...I'm sorry, we did pub FPWD in Jan.
16:15:55 <dael> TabAtkins: I hadn't made the edits we talked about in Jan F2F. Since then I've done a few other weeks. I'd like to request a first WD. And fantasai this is where you wanted tot alk about merging?
16:16:26 <tommyjtl_> tommyjtl_ has joined #css
16:16:26 <dael> fantasai: That was f2F. But we wanted an update witht he changes from F2F and we made some changes. We defined blockification and inlinification. We explain how it works for all display types.
16:16:52 <dael> fantasai: WE added a glossary of CSS2.1 terms. We folded in entire proposal as asked. WE also added hide value.
16:17:24 <dael> fantasai: WE wanted to have this make the box appear and disappear, not about display. This is the name we came up with. It's box-suppress with show, hide, and none.
16:17:43 <dael> ???: I think the value names are fine, but for the property name I like the old one better.
16:17:48 <glazou> s/??/Florian
16:17:52 <dael> TabAtkins: It seems odd to make it look like a long hand when it's not.
16:18:08 <dael> fantasai: That prefix might not be a bad thing. We wanted to make it clear this is about making hte box go away or come back.
16:18:28 <dael> florian: I think I liked it better prefixed with display, but the values and behavious ar fine to me.
16:18:32 <dael> fantasai: Other comments?
16:18:43 <bkardell_> +1 seems odd to look longhand and not be
16:18:45 <dael> florian: Since we're moving away from LC, maybe we should bikeshed earlier.
16:18:54 <dael> fantasai: I think we can publich and bikeshed at F2F
16:19:03 <dael> glazou: Previous WD is quite old so we should repub.
16:19:09 <dael> glazou: Any obj to publishing?
16:19:19 <dael> RESOLVED: New WD for Display Module
16:19:33 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Aug/0286.html
16:19:37 <dael> Topic: overflow issue
16:19:47 <dael> TabAtkins: This was earlier.
16:20:18 <dael> TabAtkins: dholbert had the reverse flex box. If it's column-reverse the initial scroll is set to the bottom. He says this makse sense and would like flexbox to do this and create interop
16:20:44 <dael> TabAtkins: fantasai said she thinks it should be defined properly in alignment so that the Chrome behviour would fall out.
16:21:01 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-align/#overflow-scroll-position
16:21:27 <dael> TabAtkins: So it now says if you align with an edge, you align initial scroll position with that edge. That makes the correct behviour for flex happen because the flex start begins at the end. So it current would work correctly.
16:21:52 <dael> TabAtkins: We think this is reasonable and we captured it in alignment already. We wanted to see if there are any objections to this approach.
16:21:54 <dael> glazou: Questions?
16:22:25 <dael> fantasai: This means that if you have a scrollable thing or don't, the initial alignment looks the same. The overflow is off tot he other side from the alignment.
16:22:38 <dael> Rossen_: What happens when you have alignment and writing mode direction as opposite.
16:23:26 <dael> fantasai: You set hte scroll position according to the alignment and that accounts for the writing mode. So the default will match aligning to the start-start corner. This is about aligning on the scrollable element itself.
16:23:44 <dael> fantasai: This is the prop that says all my contents are aligned this way So a scrollable box all contents are the scrollable area.
16:24:06 <dael> dbaron: Key point is that the default references is, to the alignment does matter.
16:24:24 <dael> dbaron: I'm worried that this affects margin auto, but not text align, but I think I'm okay.
16:24:39 <dael> TabAtkins: I think it's okay. Text alignment is another thing, but not as big of a deal. I could be wrong.
16:24:40 <fantasai> s/affects/doesn't affect/
16:24:49 <fantasai> s/but not/or/
16:24:54 <dbaron> s/worried/a little worried/
16:25:01 <fantasai> s/or not/or/
16:25:01 <dael> Rossen_: I'm okay with it as well. It makes sense.
16:25:17 <dael> glazou: Anyone with an opinion or comment? Anyone else? No objection?
16:25:31 <dael> RESOLVED: Adopt proposal
16:25:49 <dael> TabAtkins: Anyone with comments later, bring them to the ML. This is large and I want to make sure everyone is aware.
16:25:50 <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2014JulSep/0123.html
16:25:53 <dael> Topic: CSS Text
16:26:13 <dael> fantasai: Let me find the message
16:26:24 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Aug/0256.html
16:26:33 <dael> glazou: The message is linked from what I posted. That one?
16:26:42 <dael> fantasai: Yes. I wanted to go over somet hings to make sure everyone is aware.
16:27:33 <dael> fantasai: There's two issues about UAX14. We accepted something that breaks UAX14. There's the break character that's supposed to rep images and glue character which is no break. So we interop ignore the no break when it's between that character and a replaced element
16:27:49 <dael> fantasai: We had to change to spec to say we're reordering so that you violate the glue rule.
16:27:55 <dael> florian: Do we have usage data?
16:28:20 <dael> fantasai: I suspect this is well embedded because it's been around for a long time. We could dig out netscape to figure out how long.
16:28:31 <dael> fantasai: People have relied on this in tables to put images together a lot.
16:28:39 <dael> fantasai: I don't know how else to get usage data.
16:28:47 <dael> florian: But there's a reasonable assuption it's common.
16:29:02 <dael> fantasai: I think anyone trying to get not breaking would be frustrated.
16:29:11 <dael> glenn_: Have you disucess with unicode?
16:29:39 <zcorpan_> zcorpan_ has joined #css
16:29:42 <dael> fantasai: I haven't All browsers are interop. People have been relying on images doing this so we should change the spec. I'm not happy witht he result, it would be great to follow unicode.
16:29:53 <dael> fantasai: If impl have a way to evaluate breakage that would be great.
16:30:03 <dael> ChrisL: Is it possible the unicode is wrong and we should contact them?
16:30:48 <ChrisL> OK that seems fair enough as justification to me
16:30:54 <dael> fantasai: I don't think we should encourage anyone that isn't backwards...The unicode makes sense. I'd prefer what unicode is correct and we have backwards compat constraint. If browser impl think we can change that's great. WE're stuck for web browser, but no one else should have to deal.
16:30:58 <florian> florian has left #css
16:31:05 <dael> ChrisL: That seems fine to me.
16:31:15 <dael> glazou: Any obj?
16:31:24 <dael> fantasai: Or does anyone think we chan change?
16:31:35 <dael> glenn_: Have you talked with browser vendors about changing?
16:31:43 <dael> [silence]
16:31:53 <dael> glazou: So, let's accept the resolution
16:32:10 <dael> RESOLVED: Accept the proposal
16:32:48 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text/issues-lc-2013#issue-69
16:32:51 <dael> fantasai: Next was the i18n group asked us to nomitively reference UAX14. We say here's some references...
16:33:31 <dael> fantasai: The problem is we're not sure if UAX14 is web compat. Second is a lot of the breaks in the pairs table aren't okay without prioritization. You'll get weird results. Browsers don't do prioritization.
16:33:59 <dael> fantasai: So we said no we won't normatively reference. We need to evaluate and we don't want to tackle that in this level of text. I think i18n didn't respond to that.
16:34:02 <koji> I think this is actually issue #51 file:///Users/kojiishi/src/csswg/specs/css-text/issues-lc-2013.html#issue-51
16:34:12 <dael> fantasai: It's not issue 69...sorry.
16:34:16 <dael> fantasai: That's that.
16:34:22 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text/issues-lc-2013#issue-51
16:34:27 <dael> glenn_: What do we tell users that don't want to break?
16:34:37 <dael> fantasai: We don't normatively define line breaking rules in CSS.
16:35:16 <dael> fantasai: If people want ot not break, some characters are normatively referenced. the ones that are about control characters for line breaking. The others are informatively referenced.
16:35:33 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text/#line-break-details
16:35:48 <fantasai> glenn,  BK, CR, LF, CM, NL, and SG are normatively referenced
16:35:56 <dael> dbaron: My experience has been when people try and impl a new set of line breaking rules it has behviour that people don't expect. I don't remember which, but people would try a new line breaker and it didn't match the expected results.
16:36:02 <fantasai> also WJ, ZW, and GL
16:36:13 <dbaron> s/remember which/how much of it was JIS X 4051 and how much was UAX 14/
16:36:22 <dael> glazou: Let's go back to the current issue, 51. Anyone object againt a rejection of the original comment?
16:36:23 <dbaron> s/how much/remember how much/
16:36:33 <dael> ??: I'm fine with that.
16:36:34 <glenn_> abstain
16:36:41 <dael> glazou: So the proposal is to back that rejection.
16:36:43 <SteveZ> I agree that we are not ready to normatively define line breaking
16:36:54 <dael> RESOLVED: Reject issue 51
16:37:00 <glazou> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text/issues-lc-2013#issue-21
16:37:05 <dael> fantasai: Next was soft hyphons and hyphonation
16:37:36 <astearns> +1 to this change
16:37:46 <dael> fantasai: We had said if you have a soft hyphen, that's prioritized. epub said it was breaking anywhere close to soft hyphen. So we said that if there's a soft hyphen you can only break at the soft hyphen, not anywhere else in the word.
16:37:49 <dael> Mike: I agree.
16:38:02 <dael> ??: So what happens if the word is too long. Any you break again?
16:38:08 <dael> fantasai: I think it's just unbreakable.
16:38:11 <astearns> s/??/florian/
16:38:27 <dael> florian: If the word is so long, it's good CSS is smart.
16:38:36 <dael> fantasai: But most words aren't that long.
16:39:01 <dauwhe> s/Mike/dauwhe/
16:39:05 <dael> glenn_: I've found in thai that they often have long thigns that are space sperated. It's a cheap way of breaking without a dictionary.
16:39:16 <dael> fantasai: Shouldn't they be using zero break space?
16:39:27 <fantasai> zero width space
16:39:29 <dael> glenn_: I'm saying that we're seen that.
16:39:47 <dael> dauwhe: And you're using this is a space where the algorythm is inappropirate?
16:39:49 <dael> fantasai: Yes.
16:40:10 <dauwhe> s/dauwhe/???/
16:40:30 <dael> florian: I'm just wondering if the word is too long should you say that if the additional break is needed you can say use the soft break and then if needed other break rules apply? Would that be useful?
16:40:41 <dael> fantasai: I think that's a good question and I don't know.
16:40:53 <dael> florian: I don't have an answer either, but I think it's worth answering.
16:40:55 <fantasai> s/the soft break/automatic hyphenation/
16:41:01 <dael> glazou: So does this mean we need more investigation?
16:41:06 <astearns> (change the whole inappropriate line to: astearns: this is used to turn off algorithmic hyphenation when it has an inappropriate result)
16:41:10 <dael> fantasai: I don't know how to get the answer.
16:41:20 <dael> dauwhe: If needed sounds pretty complex.
16:41:29 <dael> fantasai: I think in this case it's if the word is too long.
16:41:39 <dael> bert: But it may depend on what's on the next line.
16:41:51 <liam> Barrow-in-Fur&shy;ness
16:41:57 <glazou> « Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz »
16:42:33 <glazou> or « λοπαδο­τεμαχο­σελαχο­γαλεο­κρανιο­λειψανο­δριμ­υπο­τριμματο­σιλφιο­καραβο­μελιτο­κατακεχυ­μενο­κιχλ­επι­κοσσυφο­φαττο­περιστερ­αλεκτρυον­οπτο­κεφαλλιο­κιγκλο­πελειο­λαγῳο­σιραιο­βαφη­τραγανο­πτερύγων » for Lea
16:42:37 <dael> fantasai: No, If you broke at the soft hyphen and you still can't fit...florian is talking about if you have a long word, you break at a soft hyphen, and the second half of the word is longer than the line. THere's just this half a word. Are you then allowed to break at an auto-hyphen point, with that being the only thing?
16:43:04 <fantasai> s/thing/thing on the line/
16:43:06 <dael> bert: So not with a float? Or if you have another way to break the letters? It's hard to say it's absolutely needed.
16:43:11 <astearns> the correct solution for that case is to add more soft hyphens to the word. You started adding them, so you need to add as many as may be required
16:43:26 <dael> liam: This is the same with a word that can't be hyphen. Usually systems give up and hyphen.
16:43:38 <dael> ??: But we're the ones saying you can't break.
16:43:59 <glazou> ancient greek then
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16:44:15 <dael> liam: You can get something similar with place names. I pasted one. There's two questions, can you break at the explicit hyphen or can you break at other places in the compound work.
16:44:30 <dael> florian: I'd break at the algorythmic hyphen points.
16:44:46 <glazou> :)
16:44:47 <SteveZ> for what is it worth, it is also possible that neither half of the broken word fit on the very short line
16:44:56 <dael> fantasai: I'm okay to say that if there's no other break points, the word had a soft hyphen and you already broke there, you can then auto-hyphen.
16:45:04 <dael> dauwhe: I can't live with that. It's a rare situation.
16:45:05 <liam> Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsge&shy;setz
16:45:08 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
16:45:20 <MaRakow> Zakim, [Microsoft.aa] is me
16:45:20 <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
16:45:26 <dael> liam: Not only if you already broke there. You may not fit the text before as witht he crazy example above.
16:45:33 <dael> s/can't/can
16:45:58 <dael> dauwhe: So only hyphennate at the soft hyphen unless something really bad happens.
16:46:07 <dael> fantasai: That seems reasonable to me and if we need to we can revisit.
16:46:11 <dael> glazou: Okay.
16:46:15 <dael> fantasai: Let's do issue 65
16:46:19 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text/issues-lc-2013#issue-65
16:46:55 <dael> fantasai: That was i18n asking for more details on how Indic does letter spacing. WE said no because we don't have the knowledge to do that. THe uA is given the ability to do the right thing and you can figure that out.
16:47:05 <dael> florian: You have a note below that Chrome does an impressive thing.
16:47:07 <Zakim> -MaRakow
16:47:20 <dael> fantasai: Yes, but Indic would be a spec to itself.
16:47:47 <dael> liam: Does indic have it's own group and we can defer to them until they come back? That allows us to defer the definition of correctly until they come to it.
16:47:56 <dael> fantasai: I think it should be a sep document that we can refer to.
16:47:57 <ChrisL> s/liam/chris
16:48:04 <dael> glazou: I agree with fantasai
16:48:06 <florian> +1
16:48:25 <dael> glazou: So do we want the rejection? any objections?
16:48:37 <dael> RESOLVED: Reject the issue (65)
16:48:50 <dael> fantasai: 72 is about control characters is waiting for microsoft.
16:48:56 <ChrisL> s/Does indic have it's own group/There is an Indic language layout task force
16:49:00 <dael> fantasai: So that's open on you Microsoft people.
16:49:06 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Aug/0217.html
16:49:17 <dael> fantasai: We're coming to consensus about cross inline properties. That might go into fonts.
16:49:25 <dael> ??: What's the proposal?
16:49:28 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text/issues-lc-2013#issue-59
16:49:32 <dael> fantasai: I'm not sure I'm quite clear on it.
16:49:47 <dael> fantasai: The last issue was rename distribute to inter-character
16:50:58 <dael> fantasai: We initially rejected this because distribute has been around since IE6. It's also fairly true it's not clear and doesn't match other values of the spec. This would be clearer and just by looking you can guess what it means.
16:51:28 <dael> fantasai: We'd have to keep distribute, but should we make it legacy and have intercharacter.
16:51:47 <dael> ???: The problem is with scripting. Is this often used with scripts?
16:51:56 <glazou> s/??/florian
16:51:59 <dael> fantasai: I can't image people would expect archane cases.
16:52:11 <dael> dbaron: I'm not a fan of aliasing. I'd rather not have it.
16:52:18 <fantasai> s/expect/except/
16:52:34 <dael> florian: The more I do, the more I like aliasing. But we have to define it.
16:52:39 <dael> glenn_: It's a serialization problem.
16:52:56 <dael> fantasai: I think we were make it more of a duplicate rather than an alias.
16:53:17 <dael> florian: I don't feel great, but I can live with it depending on browser vendors.
16:53:41 <dael> Rossen_: I wasn't here and I have to catch up on this. Can we table to next week or F2F? By that time I can talk to my tech guys and have a position on this.
16:53:48 <dael> fantasai: Is this control characters or this one?
16:53:50 <dael> Rossen_: This one.
16:53:54 <dael> glazou: 59 right?
16:53:58 <dael> Rossen_: 59.
16:54:04 <dael> fantasai: I don't mind waiting another week.
16:54:09 <dael> Rossen_: Control characters is the same.
16:54:11 <dael> glazou: Okay.
16:54:32 <dael> Rossen_: What's the urgency. Are you trying to push so it's ready for LC at F2F? Or is it okay at F2F?
16:54:45 <dael> fantasai: WE want to pub LC at the F2F at the latest. I think it will need to go there.
16:54:55 <dael> fantasai: WE can discuss there, but we want to be able to resolve.
16:55:14 <dael> Rossen_: I can have a responce at the F2F at the latest. I'll see if I can get on the call next week from London.
16:55:27 <dael> glazou: We only have 5 minutes. Anything we can do on text?
16:55:36 <dael> fantasai: Do we have another? WE can move on.
16:55:51 <florian> s/The more I do, the more I like aliasing/The more scripts are involved, the less I like aliasing/
16:55:55 <dael> glazou: So we have #6 or #8
16:56:02 <dael> TabAtkins: I don't think we can do 6.
16:56:08 <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec#dead-need-to-be-turned-into-notes
16:56:09 <dael> Topic: BECSS to Notes
16:56:56 <florian> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec#dead-need-to-be-turned-into-notes
16:56:56 <dael> TabAtkins: There's a handful of old specs that show up on TR, but they're dead. They don't even appear on our repository. Per W3C we're supposed to gravestone and make them notes. Does anyone object to doing it with these? The list i on the wiki
16:57:09 <dael> fantasai: Behaviour extentions, hyperlinks, and marquiee
16:57:24 <dael> fantasai: Can we resind a recommendation?
16:57:29 <dael> Bert: Yeah.
16:57:31 <dbaron> s/recommendation/non-recommendation/
16:57:39 <dael> fantasai: It would be nice to have styling to say don't use.
16:57:47 <SteveZ> a tombstone water mark
16:57:57 <ChrisL> we can't rescind it but we can publish as a note
16:58:03 <dael> ??: There's a note on the wiki saying Blink dropped support, but I think it was a different thing.
16:58:19 <glazou> s/??/florian
16:58:20 <dael> TabAtkins: So any objections to these three being re-pub as gravestone notes?
16:58:27 <dael> glazou: No obj from me. Strong support.
16:58:58 <dael> Bert: I agree. As an additional point, I put this topic on the F2F topic list. There are others that might needd to be updated.
16:59:12 <dael> TabAtkins: These were the super obvious. There were others that would need discussion.
16:59:21 <dael> glazou: Any objection to moving the three doc to notes?
16:59:22 <florian> s/Blink dropped support, but I think it was a different thing./Blink dropped support for marquee, but that implementation was not even in line with the spec/
16:59:30 <dael> RESOLVED: Move the three documents to notes
16:59:37 <dael> TabAtkins: I'll prepare if you'll publish?
16:59:40 <dael> Bert: Okay.
16:59:47 <dael> fantasai: Are we okay to publish counter styles tomorrow?
16:59:57 <dael> TabAtkins: Bert did a pre-request so he got an okay.
17:00:01 <ChrisL> nice work bert
17:00:01 <dael> fantasai: Excellent. Thank you.
17:00:13 <dael> glazou: That's the top of the hour. Thanks everyone.
17:00:31 <ChrisL> my regrets for next week (returning from SVG f2f)
17:00:51 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
17:00:56 <Zakim> -SGalineau
17:00:57 <Zakim> - +1.479.764.aaaa
17:00:59 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
17:01:00 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:01:01 <Zakim> -Liam
17:01:01 <Zakim> -astearns
17:01:01 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:01:01 <Zakim> -Bert
17:01:01 <Zakim> -mike_miller
17:01:01 <Zakim> -murakami
17:01:01 <Zakim> -dauwhe
17:01:02 <Zakim> -antonp
17:01:02 <Zakim> -glenn
17:01:03 <Zakim> -koji
17:01:03 <Zakim> -SteveZ
17:01:03 <Zakim> -dbaron
17:01:05 <Zakim> -glazou
17:01:05 <Zakim> -dael
17:01:06 <Zakim> -plinss
17:01:06 <Zakim> -SimonSapin
17:01:11 <Zakim> -??P43
17:01:15 <Zakim> -MaRakow.a
17:01:17 <Zakim> - +1.631.398.aaee
17:01:21 <Zakim> - +1.301.526.aagg
17:06:22 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, ChrisL, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
17:06:23 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:06:23 <Zakim> Attendees were mike_miller, glazou, dael, glenn, +1.479.764.aaaa, florian, SGalineau, +1.206.675.aabb, +1.917.207.aacc, astearns, dauwhe, Lea, plinss, murakami, +1.281.305.aadd,
17:06:24 <Zakim> ... Bert, TabAtkins, +1.631.398.aaee, antonp, Liam, SimonSapin, +1.301.526.aagg, dbaron, koji, MaRakow, Rossen_, ChrisL, [Microsoft], fantasai, SteveZ
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