14:50:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:50:49 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/08/14-html-a11y-irc
14:50:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:50:51 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-a11y
14:50:53 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
14:50:53 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 50 minutes ago
14:50:54 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:50:54 <trackbot> Date: 14 August 2014
14:50:59 <janina_> agenda?
14:51:03 <janina_> Meeting: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference
14:51:03 <janina_> Chair: Janina
14:51:03 <janina_> agenda+ Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
14:51:06 <janina_> agenda+ MAUR Heartbeat
14:51:09 <janina_> agenda+ Longdesc [See Below]
14:51:11 <janina_> agenda+ Picture Element Alt http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/embedded-content.html#an-image-in-a-picture-element
14:51:14 <janina_> agenda+ ARIA 1.1 and HTML 5 -- Do gaps remain?
14:51:17 <janina_> agenda+ Access Key/Command
14:51:19 <janina_> agenda+ Other Business
14:51:22 <janina_> agenda+ Identify Chair and Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
14:51:25 <janina_> agenda+ be done
14:53:09 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has now started
14:53:16 <Zakim> +??P0
14:53:51 <janina_>  /me Argh, no audio!
14:53:59 <Zakim> -??P0
14:54:01 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has ended
14:54:01 <Zakim> Attendees were
14:58:59 <rubys> rubys has joined #html-a11y
14:59:02 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has now started
14:59:09 <Zakim> +??P7
14:59:25 <Zakim> +Sam
14:59:45 <chaals> zakim, call chaals-es
14:59:45 <Zakim> ok, chaals; the call is being made
14:59:46 <Zakim> +Chaals
14:59:46 <Zakim> -??P7
15:00:17 <chaals> zakim, who is making noise?
15:00:28 <Zakim> chaals, listening for 11 seconds I could not identify any sounds
15:00:51 <chaals> zakim, who is here?
15:00:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sam, Chaals
15:00:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see rubys, Zakim, RRSAgent, chaals, janina_, newtron_, MarkS, liam, sivoais, hober, cabanier, trackbot
15:00:55 <chaals> zakim, this is 2119
15:00:55 <Zakim> chaals, this was already WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM
15:00:56 <Zakim> ok, chaals; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM
15:01:10 <Zakim> +??P10
15:01:18 <Zakim> +Liam
15:01:20 <janina_> zakim, ??P10 is me
15:01:20 <Zakim> +janina_; got it
15:01:24 <plh> plh has joined #html-a11y
15:01:32 <Zakim> +Plh
15:02:02 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #html-a11y
15:02:10 <Zakim> +Shane_McCarron
15:02:42 <paulc> paulc has joined #html-a11y
15:02:51 <paulc> zakim, what is the code?
15:02:51 <Zakim> the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), paulc
15:02:56 <ShaneM> zakim, who is here?
15:02:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sam, Chaals, janina_, Liam, Plh, Shane_McCarron
15:02:58 <Zakim> On IRC I see paulc, ShaneM, plh, rubys, Zakim, RRSAgent, chaals, janina_, newtron_, MarkS, liam, sivoais, hober, cabanier, trackbot
15:03:14 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:03:16 <liam> scribe: liam
15:03:18 <janina_> zakim, next item
15:03:18 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List" taken up [from janina_]
15:03:19 <liam> scribenick: liam
15:03:23 <paulc> zakim, [Microsoft] is me
15:03:23 <Zakim> +paulc; got it
15:03:30 <janina_> scribe: liam
15:03:35 <janina_> zakim, clost this item
15:03:35 <Zakim> I don't understand 'clost this item', janina_
15:03:39 <janina_> zakim, next item
15:03:39 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, janina_
15:03:44 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
15:03:47 <janina_> zakim, close this item
15:03:47 <Zakim> agendum 1 closed
15:03:48 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:03:48 <Zakim> 2. MAUR Heartbeat [from janina_]
15:03:53 <janina_> zakim, next item
15:03:53 <Zakim> agendum 2. "MAUR Heartbeat" taken up [from janina_]
15:04:08 <liam> chair: Janina
15:04:34 <liam> Janina: heartbeat: a document was published yesterday ...
15:04:39 <janina_> http://www.w3.org/TR/media-accessibility-reqs
15:04:58 <Zakim> -Chaals
15:05:02 <MarkS> regrets Mark_Sadecki
15:05:11 <chaals> chaals has joined #html-a11y
15:05:11 <liam> expecting one more set of edits, editorial
15:05:28 <liam> then media subteam believes document should be ready to move forward later this yer to Note status
15:05:47 <janina_> zakim, next item
15:05:47 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Longdesc" taken up [from See Below]
15:06:00 <chaals> zakim, call chaals-es
15:06:00 <Zakim> ok, chaals; the call is being made
15:06:01 <Zakim> +Chaals
15:06:05 <liam> Janina: good news, we have a CR document published
15:06:16 <liam> pointer is in the agenda
15:06:50 <liam> we have to move forward quickly to stay in sync with HTML 5
15:07:02 <liam> we're expecting a formal objection but not yet received
15:07:04 <chaals> zakim, who is here?
15:07:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sam, Chaals, janina_, Liam, Plh, Shane_McCarron, paulc, Cynthia_Shelly
15:07:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see chaals, paulc, ShaneM, plh, rubys, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina_, newtron_, MarkS, liam, sivoais, hober, cabanier, trackbot
15:07:10 <liam> next step is moving to PR
15:07:18 <liam> we should review expected timeline
15:07:24 <Zakim> -Chaals
15:07:30 <liam> we should also talk about requirements for moving from CR to PR
15:07:31 <paulc> See Sam's reminder to David Singer about timing of longdesc: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Aug/0021.html
15:07:57 <liam> we need to show that each of our MUST statements is supported in 2 independent implementations
15:08:02 <liam> we believe we have that
15:08:12 <liam> bu [impl'n report] may need to be clearer
15:08:22 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:08:35 <chaals> zakim, [ip is me
15:08:35 <Zakim> +chaals; got it
15:08:52 <liam> agenda for this call: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2014Aug/0018.html
15:08:55 <plh> https://www.w3.org/2014/08/longdesc-todos.html
15:09:59 <Zakim> +John_Foliot
15:09:59 <liam> plh: due to the timeline of html5, 'cos we want to release HTML 5 during TPAC ...
15:10:02 <janina_> q?
15:10:10 <JF> JF has joined #html-a11y
15:10:16 <liam> we have to issue a cfc during CR to move to PR, rather than after the CR ended, but we don't have time
15:10:54 <liam> so we have to issue the implementation report ready in time to issue the cfc
15:11:24 <liam> report to be ready by next wednesday (20th)
15:13:14 <liam> current impl report: https://rawgit.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/master/html-longdesc/test-results.html
15:14:05 <liam> chaals: I can probably get a document over the weekend that will have just the result we need
15:14:51 <liam> chaals: we have a list of tests, I can fish up that list
15:15:02 <liam> nine tests
15:15:24 <liam> cover MUST requirements for user agents
15:15:42 <liam> Janina: are there MUSTs for other things than user agents?
15:15:51 <liam> chlls: we only need to show results for browsers
15:16:23 <liam> plh: multifunction api exposure test result table has 6 columns
15:16:43 <liam> and it's testing IE11, FF, chrome, safari, icab, with 2 different stck
15:16:56 <liam> so how many impl'n do e have?
15:17:05 <liam> chaals: so what is actually missing is DOM exposure
15:17:13 <liam> we need to update this table
15:17:27 <liam> the MSAA on Win is the standard accessibility API for a lot of stuff, still
15:17:44 <liam> we don't seem to have mac support
15:18:03 <liam> [qualitative statement unminuted :-) ]
15:18:13 <janina_> q?
15:18:38 <liam> plh: so just exposing longdesc in the DOM is enough to claim implementation?
15:18:53 <liam> chaals: [scribe could not hear]
15:20:01 <liam> chaals: [exposure to DOM is sufficient for API exposure]
15:21:41 <liam> plh: along with those tables we need some explanation on how to interpret the tables
15:21:49 <liam> as we're going to have to repeat the explanations to the director
15:23:09 <liam> [chaals will add information to help understand what the tables mean]
15:25:24 <chaals> [What we should do: Make a document that has a table of the things we need to know, with an explanation, and then link to this document for more information for those who are interested]
15:26:58 <liam> janina: we have a lot of data here not relevant to meeting the reqs of a w3c spec; we find it interesting but not [pertinent]
15:31:17 <chaals> agenda?
15:31:20 <liam> [ok, 3pm ET/2100Alice Springs Time, IRC meeting for editing]
15:32:20 <liam> Liam notes Laura reopened her issue
15:33:34 <chaals> [If it is normative change, then it won't happen and has been resolved by the group. If it is editorial (as I think) then it is neither here nor there and we can try to make her happy if we think it is important]
15:35:26 <chaals> [I don't think the level of change is problematic. But the statement she is asking for is untestable, and therefore I am not that interested in applying it]
15:36:05 <liam> janina: increased accssibility is subjective
15:36:08 <liam> and implicit
15:36:33 <liam> pc: mostly editorial, agree, with Charles
15:36:38 <Zakim> -Plh
15:37:12 <chaals> s/pc/jf/
15:38:15 <chaals> [I am in favour of not doing anything to what we have]
15:38:34 <liam> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24168
15:40:00 <chaals> [+1 to Shane]
15:40:07 <liam> shane: we're giving this way more weight than it's work, it's a dead horse
15:41:03 <chaals> agenda?
15:41:39 <chaals> Proposed Resolution: We will not do anything with this editorial suggestion...
15:42:17 <liam> decision: close 24168, resolution, no action
15:42:35 <chaals> [i.e. we can make it wontfix, if we want, or just tell the director what we are doing with it]
15:42:40 <janina_> zakim, next item
15:42:40 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Picture Element Alt http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/embedded-content.html#an-image-in-a-picture-element" taken up [from janina_]
15:43:00 <liam> janina: we have proposed language from steve
15:43:11 <liam> are we satisfied with this language?
15:44:04 <liam> Resolution: accept steve's language on picture
15:44:15 <janina_> zakim, next item
15:44:15 <Zakim> agendum 5. "ARIA 1.1 and HTML 5 -- Do gaps remain?" taken up [from janina_]
15:44:26 <liam> [i.e. no action required from TF]
15:44:37 <chaals> zakim, who is here?
15:44:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sam, janina_, Liam, Shane_McCarron, paulc, Cynthia_Shelly, chaals, John_Foliot
15:44:39 <Zakim> On IRC I see JF, chaals, paulc, ShaneM, plh, rubys, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina_, newtron_, MarkS, liam, sivoais, hober, cabanier, trackbot
15:45:13 <liam> [required people not present]
15:45:31 <janina_> zakim, next item
15:45:31 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Access Key/Command" taken up [from janina_]
15:45:38 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:46:28 <liam> Rich: we need to find out, are there any additional things that must go into aria 1.1 to support html5 native host language semantics
15:46:50 <liam> I'd like to wrap up a lot of the issues for 1.1 and start working on v2, start building test cases
15:47:20 <chaals> [There is an issue (IMHO) about whether ARIA should work with native UI - or alternatively define what the assistive technology that it deals with is, and isn't]
15:47:58 <liam> Janina: [agrees with Charles]
15:48:09 <liam> Rich: what do you mean by native UI?
15:48:31 <liam> [the browser]
15:48:45 <liam> JF: longdesc is being exposed right now but no visual rendering in the browser UI
15:48:58 <chaals> [If ARIA only works through an Accessibility API, we effectively get two different interactions dependent on the arbitrary detail of whether the user's tools rely on that API or the user relies on a browser and its native functions]
15:48:59 <liam> should we start looking for ways of exposing this functionality to more than screen readers?
15:49:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #html-a11y
15:49:15 <chaals> [… and that's a pretty unpredictable situation for a user to be in]
15:49:40 <liam> Janina: we're starting to build use cases, including from digital publishing
15:50:10 <liam> Rich: dpub IG wants to supply structural semantics in aria markup and have it be dual purpose, can be exposed for accessibility & for epub readers,
15:50:20 <liam> but want to define semantics for e.g. comic scripts with embedded SVG
15:50:38 <liam> but we don't say what [browsers] do with it
15:51:06 <liam> CS: Microsoft would like to use ARIA to impact UI
15:51:10 <chaals> [We *allow* them to use ARIA on UI already…]
15:51:34 <liam> Rich: ARIA has enough uptake now, advantages in browsers using it to influence the user experience
15:52:37 <liam> Janina: how o we manage having the browser & a11y API both using aria?
15:52:50 <liam> CS: We've been looking at allowing more scriptability from within JavaScript
15:52:57 <chaals> [Actually, the hard bit is how do we specify what should be done without over-constraining the UI to the point where we mandate suboptimal behaviour]
15:53:29 <chaals> [e.g. the definition of how to interact with native semantics - strong vs weak etc - is part of this work]
15:53:36 <liam> [e.g. a11y api being able to manipulate the DOM, and scripts being able to talk to the a11y API]
15:53:50 <liam> Rich: that's an ARIA 2 thing, need more consistency in APIs across platforms
15:53:55 <liam> e.g. control pattern
15:54:22 <liam> Need to pull out use cases
15:55:08 <liam> roots of why we made ARIA were based on UI widgets in current practice at the time, it's gone way beyond that
15:55:19 <liam> seems silly not to make use of it
15:55:48 <liam> CS: a lot of things like screen size changes, audio interfaces, are much more mainstream now, not only a11y
15:56:04 <liam> Rich: mobile is levelling of paying field across the board
15:57:04 <paulc> rrsagent, generate minutes
15:57:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/14-html-a11y-minutes.html paulc
15:57:06 <liam> Janina: so this is going beyong 1.1, but we're trying to wrap up 1.1 for html5
15:57:13 <Zakim> -paulc
15:57:23 <liam> 1.1 needs to move towards test cases so we can be publishing something in a little over a year
15:57:40 <liam> this has been a fundamental conversation, we need to start adding use cases
15:57:57 <liam> CS: it may be this goes into web events or UI spec
15:58:08 <liam> Janina: as long as we dont lose the a11y we fought so hard to build
15:58:22 <liam> [agreement]
15:59:00 <Zakim> -Sam
15:59:27 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:59:29 <Zakim> -Liam
15:59:29 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
15:59:32 <Zakim> -chaals
15:59:32 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
15:59:33 <Zakim> -janina_
15:59:39 <Zakim> -Shane_McCarron
15:59:40 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has ended
15:59:40 <Zakim> Attendees were Sam, Chaals, Liam, janina_, Plh, Shane_McCarron, paulc, Cynthia_Shelly, [IPcaller], John_Foliot, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:59:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/14-html-a11y-minutes.html liam
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