14:38:18 RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag 14:38:18 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/08/12-wai-wcag-irc 14:38:20 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:38:22 Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG 14:38:22 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 22 minutes 14:38:23 Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 14:38:23 Date: 12 August 2014 14:38:30 Chair: AWK 14:38:41 Zakim, Agenda? 14:38:41 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda: 14:38:42 7. Alistair’s technique - https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Creating_a_conforming_alternate_version_for_a_responsive_web_page_designed_with_progressive_enhancement [from AWK] 14:38:42 8. Survey - https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140805/ [from AWK] 14:38:42 9. discussion on LC-2912 (https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20140306/2912) [from AWK] 14:38:42 10. New windows, links, and 3.2.2 [from AWK] 14:38:46 11. ISSUES and ACTIONS walkthrough [from Joshue] 14:39:22 Zakim, clear agenda 14:39:22 agenda cleared 14:39:34 Agenda+ Survey for August 12th - https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/2014Aug12/ 14:40:01 Agenda+ Survey from August 5th- https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140805/ (only #s 3, 4, and 6). 14:40:16 Agenda+ Alistair’s technique - https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Creating_a_conforming_alternate_version_for_a_responsive_web_page_designed_with_progressive_enhancement 14:40:30 Agenda+ Feedback on Developers' Guide to Features of Web Accessibility Evaluation Tools 29th July 2014 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/29thAugust2014/ 14:40:44 Agenda+ Review open actions and issues 14:54:33 WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has now started 14:54:40 +AWK 14:56:10 MichaelC has joined #wai-wcag 14:56:46 +??P10 14:56:58 ack me 14:59:56 +Sailesh_Panchang 15:00:09 +David_MacDonald 15:00:11 +[FordMotor] 15:00:21 jon_avila has joined #wai-wcag 15:00:38 Mike_Elledge has joined #wai-wcag 15:00:50 + +1.703.637.aaaa 15:00:59 Wilco has joined #wai-wcag 15:01:03 zakim, I am aaaa 15:01:04 +jon_avila; got it 15:01:17 +??P11 15:01:32 Sailesh has joined #wai-wcag 15:01:50 David has joined #wai-wcag 15:01:57 alistair has joined #wai-wcag 15:01:58 Zakim, who is on the phone? 15:01:58 On the phone I see AWK, Michael_Cooper, Sailesh_Panchang, David_MacDonald, [FordMotor], jon_avila, ??P11 15:02:05 Zakim, I am ??P11 15:02:05 +Wilco; got it 15:02:15 alistair, joining in a minute or two 15:02:32 Zakim, FordMotor is Mike_Elledge 15:02:32 +Mike_Elledge; got it 15:02:36 marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag 15:03:01 Regrets+ Kathy 15:03:15 +Marc_Johlic 15:04:14 +[IPcaller] 15:04:15 zakim, ipcaller is alistair 15:04:16 +alistair; got it 15:04:34 +cstrobbe 15:04:43 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List 15:05:00 zakim, call kenny-mobile 15:05:01 ok, Kenny; the call is being made 15:05:01 +Kenny 15:05:22 scribe: jon_avila 15:05:33 cstrobbe has joined #wai-wcag 15:05:53 zakim, mute me 15:05:53 Kenny should now be muted 15:05:54 Loretta has joined #WAI-WCAG 15:06:52 awk: some new people joining call -- welcome Alistair and Christophe 15:07:06 +[IPcaller] 15:07:22 zaki, IPcaller is Loretta 15:07:35 zakim, IPcaller is Loretta 15:07:35 +Loretta; got it 15:08:27 Zakim take up item 1 15:08:36 Zakim, take up item 1 15:08:36 agendum 1. "Survey for August 12th - https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/2014Aug12/" taken up [from AWK] 15:09:24 zakim, mute me 15:09:24 cstrobbe should now be muted 15:09:33 awk: LC2496 about SC 3.2.2 15:09:48 TOPIC: LC-2946: Do links that open new windows fail 3.2.2? 15:10:43 Regrets+ James 15:11:07 awk: proposal by Karl Groves to eliminate confusion 15:11:36 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2014JulSep/0128.html 15:11:38 awk: Christophe says g200 technique does not have any tests -- should limit to links - also talks about buttons 15:14:29 mike: as a sighted user of AT having a window open up could be disorienting. Can affect your expectations. Not aware of research. 15:15:00 q+ 15:15:01 awk: does clicking on a link change the setting of a user interface. 3.2.2 is on input. 15:15:02 q+ to say we have to interpret WCAG, not optimize needs :( 15:15:07 3.2.2 On Input: Changing the setting of any user interface component does not automatically cause a change of context unless the user has been advised of the behavior before using the component. (Level A) 15:15:25 ack dav 15:16:32 ack me 15:16:33 ack m 15:16:34 MichaelC, you wanted to say we have to interpret WCAG, not optimize needs :( 15:16:44 David: perhaps separate questions. Were many arguments and discussions when WCAG 2 was written. warning a user about opening a new window was not a requirement but perhaps we didn't clearly indicate that. 15:17:25 michael: our job is interpret WCAG and not to say what is the best situation. The history was the opening a new window is a change of context but it was excluded from 3.2.x because following a link is not changing a control. 15:17:51 3.2.5 Change on Request: Changes of context are initiated only by user request or a mechanism is available to turn off such changes. (Level AAA) 15:18:05 zakim, queue? 15:18:05 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:18:07 Michael: was a design decision that could be changed in future but we have to report what the WCAG requirement is. 15:18:08 q+ 15:18:42 sailesh: agree with david and Michael -- thinks this is clarified in understanding document. 15:18:45 ack jon 15:19:18 Jon: I agree. Not a failure under current SC. It is user initiated and it is clear that is excluded. Should make more clear if possible. 15:20:08 sailesh: confusion comes in when you read other techniques and example. It is clear in 3.2.2. Other techniques that need to be cleaned up. 15:21:21 awk: series of changes to proposed resolution. A change to G200 is needed. 15:22:20 awk: G200 references 3.2.1 and 3.2.5. We suggest it should be modified to only refer to 3.2.5. Amend that by saying we need to put in place a test procedure for G200 15:22:28 loretta: is it advisory or sufficient? 15:23:23 awk: it's adivsory for sc 3.2.1 and 3.2.5 15:23:38 Loretta: we do allow advisory techniques without tests. 15:23:50 q+ 15:23:52 awk: is there any reason we need G200 associated with 3.2.1? 15:23:56 3.2.1 On Focus: When any component receives focus, it does not initiate a change of context. (Level A) 15:24:41 sailesh: discussion on 3.2.5 whether that applies to opening a new window because it is a user action. 15:25:04 awk: should G200 apply to both - Sailesh is saying applies to either but not both. 15:25:32 sailesh: g200 needs to be clarified to what it applies to, when you click or when something receives focus. 15:26:02 sailesh: are situations when window opens when you tab to link. 15:26:23 awk: g200 describes SC 3.2.5 15:26:55 Loretta: only advisory -- perhaps confusion. 15:26:56 q+ 15:27:07 loretta: is a best practice. 15:27:17 q- 15:27:27 ack sa 15:27:31 ack jo 15:28:06 jon: can advisory be used to meet SC? 15:28:42 q+ 15:28:51 loretta: not necessarily. 15:28:56 q+ 15:29:32 jon: is there a difference from best practice and advisory? 15:29:42 awk: we don't define best practices. 15:29:45 q- 15:29:50 loretta: wide range of why something is advisory. 15:29:51 ack d 15:30:29 david: advisory may have testibility issues. 15:30:45 ack sa 15:30:52 david: no separate pages or techniques for best practices. 15:31:23 sailesh: advisory we means we'd like developers to go beyond. So this is best practice and there is no place for that. 15:31:41 q? 15:32:16 awk: don't want to get bogged down for this question on definitions of advisory and sufficient techniques 15:32:17 +! 15:33:04 loretta: remove g200 references from both 3.2.1 and 3.2.5. Perhaps stamp advisory across the top to make it more clear that it's only advisory. May leave impression that it's sufficient. 15:33:31 awk: Would this be sufficient for 3.2.5 and if not, why? 15:33:33 q+ 15:33:54 q+ 15:34:06 ack j 15:35:01 ack ali 15:35:04 jon: some say 3.2.5 say user opening new windows is user initiated and thus 3.2.5 doesn't apply and therefore only advisory. 15:35:28 alistair: mirror what Loretta said. 15:36:19 alistair: difficult to police to say not to open new windows. Perhaps get ride of G200. 15:36:41 awk: any one else? 15:37:09 awk: g200 seems to go beyond SC 3.2.5. If it's causing confusion and goes beyond then we can remove it. We can always tweak it later. 15:37:12 q+ 15:37:18 ack lo 15:37:41 Loretta: How hard would it be when techniques are only advisory to mark it right there? 15:38:23 awk: similar item marking content in same section for for LC 2879 some techniques that are part of an AND relationship with others. We have a proposed way of dealing with that. 15:38:31 awk: Agree that marking is something we need to consider. 15:39:05 ack me 15:39:09 awk: that is something we can improve in our techniques and understanding documents. Perhaps not terrible hard but challenge is to make sure it is accurate for all techniques. 15:39:44 awk: Michael is that a fair apraisal? 15:40:36 Michael: more challenging to automate and then review each technique to make sure they are annotated correctly. 15:41:23 awk: more techniques coming through process and more coming in from mobile TF. We want to improve user experience. We are doing these changes in order to answer this question. 15:41:53 awk: we could say that in the future we can be more explicit that a technique is advisory. Still leaves question about G200. 15:41:58 q? 15:42:09 q+ 15:42:18 ack jo 15:42:52 ack sa 15:43:11 Jon: believe should keep as advisory for 3.2.5 and remove link to 3.2.1 15:43:26 jon: should remove from SC 3.2.1 but keep advisory for .3.2.5 15:43:40 sailesh: remove from both as it's a best practice only. 15:44:13 david: keep as advisory from 3.2.5 but tweak to address Sailesh's concerns. 15:44:31 q+ 15:44:35 ack m 15:44:36 sailesh: might be open to tweak if we keep G200 15:45:49 awk: The objective of the G200 technique is to limit opening new windows... some situations it is preferential.... 15:46:28 sailesh: concern about language of limit and not preferable and then it says it can be. Why do we list it as a technique. 15:46:49 awk: last sentence says that when links open new window then there is an advanced warning. 15:47:26 awk: historically people recognize there is a challenge. Perhaps historically a user agent issue -- perhaps disoriented. Something we'd recommend but not required. 15:47:39 awk: no problem leaving for 3.2.5 but we need additional clarify. 15:48:55 sailesh: can live with future updates to G200 and keeping it advisory to 3.2.5 15:49:31 awk: G201 advisory as well. Reference 3.2.1 and 3.2.2. Giving users advanced warning when opening a new window. Does not reference 3.2.5 15:49:57 awk: Do people agree? Should it reference 3.2.5 in an advosry manner? 15:50:48 awk: Should we keep mapping to 3.2.1 and 3.2.2? 15:50:50 q+ 15:51:50 ack j 15:53:14 q+ 15:53:40 ack l 15:54:17 loretta: concerned that people will not read it as advisory and won't understand it's not sufficient. Perhaps just go to 3.2.5. 15:55:04 awk: concern that examples don't map to onfocus or on input. 15:55:41 christophe: Can we map to SC 3.2 directly instead of specific 3.2.x SC. 15:56:37 +1 to that 15:56:41 awk: Christophe suggests advisory technique on the guideline 3.2 15:57:29 david: don't have problem with it. Advisory are easier to map this way. Sufficient techniques would be different because of how we test. 15:58:01 awk: we do have future links for things like this to Guideline 1.1 15:58:41 awk: anyone who objects to that proposal to link g200 and g201 as advisory to guideline 3.2 15:58:53 Sailesh_ has joined #wai-wcag 15:59:54 awk: commenter mentions f37 -- change working "selection" rather than "status". Maps to on input SC 3.2.2. 16:00:05 awk: any concerns? 16:00:16 +1 to selection 16:01:35 +1 with awk for select lists 16:06:13 +1 16:06:22 awk: modifying proposal to clarify that g200 and g201 are advisory. Create issue to clarify in these techniques that they are advisory. 16:06:23 +1 16:06:33 awk: any objection to LC2946 as amended? 16:06:34 +1 16:06:48 RESOLUTION: Accepted as amended 16:07:47 Zakim, next item 16:07:47 agendum 2. "Survey from August 5th- https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140805/ (only #s 3, 4, and 6)." taken up [from AWK] 16:08:26 TOPIC: LC2943 H9 is beyond requirement 16:10:08 awk: Create new technique that has minimal number of heading for 2.4.1 and then this one for 2.4.10. 16:10:56 awk: survey respondant indicates sufficient techniques are not requirements for a SC 16:11:59 sailesh: SC 2.4.10 doesn't require structure only text. Agree that h69 goes beyond. 16:12:46 awk: ok to go beyond as it's a sufficient technique. We did talk about modifying h69 already. Believe we agreed to add 2.4.10 h69 to address both. 16:13:28 awk: sounds like we want a new technique for 2.4.1 on heading but that doesn't map to 2.4.10? 16:14:06 sailesh: title for h69 requires heading for each section. 16:14:32 awk: that just means you can't use h69. you could use another heading technique that is not listed or via a new technique. 16:15:47 awk: Michael provided some text on how we ask for a new technique. Modify that in the proposal. Any objections to accept as amended? 16:15:55 RESOLUTION: Accepted as amended. 16:16:23 ACTION: AWK to add new technique idea to list per LC-2943 resolution 16:16:24 Created ACTION-268 - Add new technique idea to list per lc-2943 resolution [on Andrew Kirkpatrick - due 2014-08-19]. 16:17:30 TOPIC: LC2942 16:17:59 q+ 16:18:42 ack d 16:19:10 q+ 16:19:52 awk: Japanese page with English video - what language should those be in? Need to include other audio information. 16:20:10 ack l 16:20:57 Loretta: Subtitles are useful but not an accessibility issue. If you say providing Japanese is required then why not require that for everything. We don't WCAG to make that requirement. 16:21:00 q+ 16:21:35 ack j 16:21:53 q+ 16:22:21 q+ 16:22:21 Loretta: if the video had showed Japanese subtitles then you need Japanese then that would be different 16:23:04 q+ 16:23:25 ack cs 16:23:26 zakim, unmute me 16:23:26 cstrobbe was not muted, cstrobbe 16:23:38 q+ 16:23:57 zakim, mute me 16:23:57 cstrobbe should now be muted 16:24:02 ack wi 16:24:30 christophe: could be difficult to people who are deaf that may use sign language 16:24:50 wilco: tricky -- as a minimal requirement to have at least the same language as the video. 16:24:52 ack l 16:25:27 +1 on Loretta's comment 16:25:28 ack d 16:25:29 q+ 16:25:33 Loretta: could have advisory technique that subtitles include sounds to help address needs of the Deaf 16:26:33 david: if the video is bi-language and has two caption tracks one English and one Japanese. Would that sufficient? 16:27:03 loretta: may be useful for the deaf person to know that another language is being spoken. 16:27:25 q+ 16:27:35 ack me 16:28:43 awk: would we think it sufficient that is intended for Japanese audience with English spoken with English captions. In order to meet JiS standard (WCAG 2)-- is that sufficient? Our definition doesn't say anything about language specific. 16:28:59 ack sa 16:29:02 q+ 16:29:04 awk: doesn't feel like those captions are helping Japanese user. 16:29:05 q+ 16:29:57 Sailesh: Think it would pass WCAG if captions were in English and audio cues. Audio cues and captions should be in same language. 16:30:00 ack 16:30:03 ack m 16:30:05 q- 16:30:33 ack ali 16:30:38 Mike: ultimately have to think about end user. Translated from audio to written stand point. Could indicate translated from English. 16:31:32 Alistair: Comes down to national norms. e.g. Swedish TV had many parts in English. 16:31:44 RESOLUTION: Leave open. 16:32:38 awk: Please look at #6 in survey to review techniques and understanding docs. 16:32:56 Bye all! 16:33:06 -Loretta 16:33:06 awk: the link Christophe posted is not the official link. 16:33:12 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Working_Group_Techniques_Development_Assignments 16:33:12 -Mike_Elledge 16:33:17 -alistair 16:33:20 -David_MacDonald 16:33:21 -Michael_Cooper 16:33:23 -Sailesh_Panchang 16:33:24 -Wilco 16:33:25 -AWK 16:33:26 -Marc_Johlic 16:33:26 zakim, attendees 16:33:26 I don't understand 'attendees', jon_avila 16:33:31 -Kenny 16:33:35 zakim, list attendees 16:33:35 As of this point the attendees have been AWK, Michael_Cooper, Sailesh_Panchang, David_MacDonald, +1.703.637.aaaa, jon_avila, Wilco, Mike_Elledge, Marc_Johlic, alistair, cstrobbe, 16:33:35 trackbot, end meeting 16:33:35 Zakim, list attendees 16:33:38 ... Kenny, Loretta 16:33:38 As of this point the attendees have been AWK, Michael_Cooper, Sailesh_Panchang, David_MacDonald, +1.703.637.aaaa, jon_avila, Wilco, Mike_Elledge, Marc_Johlic, alistair, cstrobbe, 16:33:38 ... Kenny, Loretta 16:33:43 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 16:33:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/12-wai-wcag-minutes.html trackbot 16:33:44 RRSAgent, bye 16:33:44 I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/08/12-wai-wcag-actions.rdf : 16:33:44 ACTION: AWK to add new technique idea to list per LC-2943 resolution [1] 16:33:44 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/08/12-wai-wcag-irc#T16-16-23