12:56:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
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12:56:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
12:56:12 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
12:56:13 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG()9:00AM already started
12:56:13 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
12:56:14 <trackbot> Date: 31 July 2014
12:56:17 <nikos_> Zakim, ??P1 is me
12:56:17 <Zakim> +nikos_; got it
12:56:51 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014Jul/0037.html
12:56:59 <ed> chair: ed
12:58:01 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
12:58:03 <heycam> Zakim, [ is me
12:58:03 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
12:58:55 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
12:59:01 <ed> Zakim, [IP is me
12:59:01 <Zakim> +ed; got it
13:01:01 <Zakim> +??P4
13:01:17 <Zakim> +Tav
13:01:18 <stakagi> zakim, ??P4 is me
13:01:18 <Zakim> +stakagi; got it
13:01:31 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
13:01:41 <Smailus> Not me this time, I'm on mute.
13:03:02 <nikos_> scribe: Nikos
13:03:05 <nikos_> scribenick: nikos_
13:03:26 <nikos_> Topic: Should css pseudo-elements (first-line, first-letter) be required in  SVG2?
13:03:41 <nikos_> heycam: are you asking specifically for these two?
13:03:48 <nikos_> ed: those are the two that occur in the css 3 spec
13:03:54 <nikos_> ... not sure if more have been added in css 4
13:04:03 <nikos_> ... FF has support for first-line and first-letter
13:04:10 <nikos_> ... we have a bug on blink to support it
13:04:17 <nikos_> ... do we want to have this in SVG or not?
13:04:27 <nikos_> heycam: I think we should have it
13:04:34 <nikos_> ... I added support because it was easy to do
13:04:53 <nikos_> ed: I suspect Blink implementation will be simple
13:04:56 <TabAtkins> Have to define nesting compatibly with CSS (which'll be tricky, because we don't define nesting well in the first place).
13:05:03 <nikos_> Tav: I think we'll have a hard time implementing but I think it's a good idea
13:05:06 <TabAtkins> Because they can cross a <tref>.
13:05:19 <nikos_> Tav: it doesn't work in FF for fill
13:05:21 <TabAtkins> Sorry, <tspan>.
13:05:23 <heycam> TabAtkins, tref has been removed
13:05:27 <nikos_> ed: that's right
13:05:27 <heycam> TabAtkins, ok
13:06:20 <nikos_> heycam: the other pseudo elements from css 2.1, the generated content ones, those FF doesn't support I don't think
13:06:24 <nikos_> ... they were tricky to handle
13:06:45 <nikos_> ... in principle I don't think we need to not support them
13:08:07 <nikos_> nikos: why were some of the pseudo classes left out?
13:08:13 <nikos_> ed: they're specific to HTML mostly
13:08:23 <TabAtkins> Until we define interop between SVG and CSS layout models, agree that the other pseudos like ::before aren't really includable.
13:08:24 <nikos_> ... required the CSS layout engine which SVG didn't have
13:08:42 <nikos_> ... it's hard to add generated content in SVG because you'd need to wrap it in a text element
13:09:01 <heycam> g::before { shape-inside: ... }
13:09:49 <nikos_> ed: so if we were to require the first-line and first-letter pseudo elements, how much would we need to define in the SVG spec? if anything?
13:09:51 <TabAtkins> I mean, we could treat it as a <text>.
13:10:11 <TabAtkins> ed: Need to define which SVG properties apply to them.
13:10:22 <nikos_> heycam: I haven't looked at the state of the text chapter recently. But if we have wording that says take this DOM subtree and treat text elements as blocks and tspans as inline and layout according to CSS box model, etc
13:10:28 <TabAtkins> Only those that don't expose that they may be broken up into multiple elements.
13:10:34 <nikos_> ... then you mention first-line and first-letter should be included as part of that
13:10:36 <ed> TabAtkins: yes... but without giving a y position too at the same time it would be outside the viewport in svg
13:11:02 <TabAtkins> Right, you'd support x/y props on them too in that case.
13:11:07 <nikos_> heycam: it should just be a small change
13:11:19 <nikos_> ... not sure about Tab's concerns. Perhaps he can go into more detail in an email?
13:11:27 <heycam> concerns re nesting
13:11:40 <TabAtkins> Yup, will send.
13:12:16 <nikos_> ed: second half of my question was related to the outcome of this. Should we require CSS selectors in SVG or is that just going to fall out from requiring other CSS specs?
13:12:33 <nikos_> heycam: not sure if any of the CSS specs we've talked about have a strict requirement on a particular version of selectors
13:12:42 <nikos_> ... so it might be good for us to have a requirement for a particular version
13:12:57 <nikos_> ... currently we have an informal reference. We could make it normative
13:13:28 <ed> s/... currently we/ED: currently we
13:13:35 <nikos_> heycam: various parts of CSS that we're not relying on for SVG specific things. Then stuff that's in CSS 2 is probably good enough
13:13:45 <nikos_> Tav: will we be able to select 3rd rect in a group?
13:13:51 <nikos_> heycam: not sure which version of selectors that is
13:13:54 <nikos_> ed: think it's 3
13:14:10 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/#structural-pseudos
13:14:19 <nikos_> heycam: maybe we should decide what the baseline version of features that SVG should support
13:14:39 <TabAtkins> Man, don't require a particular level.  That's silly. Just point to Selectors and let people support the latest version.
13:14:51 <nikos_> ... don't know how far ahead we should normatively require when they're pretty orthogonal things
13:14:57 <TabAtkins> CSS doesn't require a particular version of Selectors.
13:14:58 <heycam> TabAtkins, how about a minimum version?
13:15:02 <nikos_> Tav: would be interesting to know if anyone supports 3rd rect in a group now
13:15:03 <TabAtkins> Sure.
13:15:09 <nikos_> heycam: think it should work
13:15:16 <nikos_> ed: I think so
13:15:40 <nikos_> ed: don't know if we have wording in the spec about not supporting style sheets
13:15:53 <nikos_> heycam: I think we had the discussion about requiring style sheets
13:15:58 <nikos_> ... but not sure spec changes have been done
13:17:12 <nikos_> ed: think we've already resolved to have multi-line text. I think first-line makes sense once that's in
13:17:42 <TabAtkins> Agree.
13:18:23 <nikos_> ed: do we want to resolve on first-line and first-letter now or wait for more feedback?
13:18:41 <nikos_> heycam: Some details to finalise, but I think it makes sense to resolve now
13:18:45 <nikos_> RESOLUTION: SVG 2 will require ::first-line and ::first-letter from CSS selectors
13:19:43 <nikos_> ACTION: Erik to add ::first-line and ::first-letter to SVG 2
13:19:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3635 - Add ::first-line and ::first-letter to svg 2 [on Erik Dahlström - due 2014-08-07].
13:20:11 <nikos_> Tav: can you do selectors inside the style attribute?
13:20:14 <nikos_> ed: no don't think so
13:20:33 <nikos_> Tav: So this would be the first case when you actually need a style sheet
13:20:56 <nikos_> heycam: also if you want to have :visited, :hover, etc
13:21:02 <nikos_> ed: selectors in general
13:21:58 <nikos_> ed: regarding the second part of the question, do we require CSS3 selectors
13:22:03 <nikos_> ... do we want to resolve on that now too?
13:22:15 <TabAtkins> We tried selectors inside of style years ago, but didn't end up doing it.
13:22:16 <nikos_> ed: currently we reference a minimum version
13:22:29 <nikos_> heycam: don't think we have any wording about supporting later versions of CSS
13:22:35 <nikos_> ... might be good to have something in the style chapter
13:23:05 <nikos_> ... I think in general we should require the earliest specs that we actually need for features
13:23:25 <nikos_> ... so if we don't require any CSS3 features just stick with the older version
13:23:48 <nikos_> ... and say if you want to support later features that's fine
13:25:00 <nikos_> ed: I can take the action to state that
13:25:24 <nikos_> heycam: do you want to tackle that in a general fashion in the style chapter?
13:25:28 <nikos_> ed: yes just a paragraph in there
13:25:38 <nikos_> ACTION: Erik to add wording to SVG 2 to allow later versions of CSS
13:25:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3636 - Add wording to svg 2 to allow later versions of css [on Erik Dahlström - due 2014-08-07].
13:26:28 <heycam> https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/London_2014/Agenda_proposals
13:27:06 <nikos_> RRSAgent, make minutes
13:27:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/31-svg-minutes.html nikos_
13:27:11 <Zakim> -ed
13:27:15 <Zakim> -stakagi
13:27:16 <Zakim> -Smailus
13:27:18 <Zakim> -heycam
13:27:20 <Zakim> -Tav
13:27:23 <Zakim> -nikos_
13:27:39 <ed> trackbot, end telcon
13:27:39 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
13:27:39 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Smailus, nikos_, [IPcaller], heycam, ed, Tav, stakagi, Doug_Schepers
13:27:47 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:27:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/31-svg-minutes.html trackbot
13:27:48 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
13:27:48 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/31-svg-actions.rdf :
13:27:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Erik to add ::first-line and ::first-letter to SVG 2 [1]
13:27:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/31-svg-irc#T13-19-43
13:27:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Erik to add wording to SVG 2 to allow later versions of CSS [2]
13:27:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/31-svg-irc#T13-25-38