14:02:13 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 14:02:13 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/07/24-i18n-irc 14:02:15 RRSAgent, make logs world 14:02:15 Zakim has joined #i18n 14:02:17 Zakim, this will be 4186 14:02:17 ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago 14:02:18 Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference 14:02:18 Date: 24 July 2014 14:02:26 zakim, this will be i18n 14:02:26 ok, r12a; I see I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago 14:02:35 zakim, dial richard-home please 14:02:35 ok, r12a; the call is being made 14:02:36 I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has now started 14:02:37 +Richard 14:03:17 dclarke has joined #i18n 14:04:18 + +1.650.426.aaaa 14:05:07 +??P11 14:05:17 zakim,??P11 is me 14:05:20 +matial; got it 14:05:34 aphillip has joined #i18n 14:05:35 + +aabb 14:05:40 zakim, who is here? 14:05:40 On the phone I see Richard, +1.650.426.aaaa, matial, +aabb 14:05:42 On IRC I see aphillip, dclarke, Zakim, RRSAgent, matial, r12a, fantasai, trackbot 14:05:59 zakim, +1.650.426.aaaa is me 14:05:59 +aphillip; got it 14:06:16 zakim, aabb is me 14:06:16 +fantasai; got it 14:06:26 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2014Jul/0015.html 14:06:34 Chair: Addison Phillips 14:06:38 Scribe: Addison Phillips 14:06:42 ScribeNick: aphillip 14:07:49 +??P18 14:08:06 zakim, +aabb is fantasai 14:08:06 sorry, aphillip, I do not recognize a party named '+aabb' 14:08:16 trackbot, prepare teleconference 14:08:18 RRSAgent, make logs world 14:08:20 Zakim, this will be 4186 14:08:20 ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM scheduled to start 8 minutes ago 14:08:21 Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference 14:08:21 Date: 24 July 2014 14:08:24 zakim, +??P18 is me 14:08:24 sorry, dclarke, I do not recognize a party named '+??P18' 14:08:37 Regrets: JcK, Felix 14:08:50 zakim, ??P18 is me 14:08:50 I already had ??P18 as ??P18, dclarke 14:08:54 Topic: 14:08:59 aphillip: Anything to add to agenda? 14:09:03 Topic: Agenda 14:09:26 zakim, mute me 14:09:26 sorry, dclarke, I don't know what conference this is 14:09:28 agenda+ Tracker tweaks 14:09:44 Topic: Action Items 14:09:55 http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open 14:10:24 agenda+ http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0369.html if time 14:10:43 aphillip: Working through list of satisfied items in CSS3 Text 14:10:47 aphillip: Not quite done 14:10:58 action-315? 14:10:58 action-315 -- Addison Phillips to Close satisifed items in css-text -- due 2014-07-03 -- OPEN 14:10:58 http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/315 14:11:22 action-320? 14:11:22 action-320 -- John Klensin to Send link to "hamza above" id to public list -- due 2014-07-24 -- OPEN 14:11:22 http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/320 14:11:32 close action-320 14:11:32 Closed action-320. 14:11:47 close action-321 14:11:47 Closed action-321. 14:12:04 close action-322 14:12:04 Closed action-322. 14:12:08 action-319? 14:12:08 action-319 -- Koji Ishii to Report back on korean justification when response received -- due 2014-07-17 -- OPEN 14:12:08 http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/319 14:12:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/24-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 14:12:35 Topic: Info Share 14:13:09 fantasai: publish new draft of css-ruby 14:13:16 ... anon box generation 14:13:21 ... whitespace handling now defined 14:13:24 ... bidi now defined 14:13:28 ... sent mail about it 14:13:46 ... on html side, koji filed items about too aggressive auto closing 14:13:56 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26424 14:14:01 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26426 14:14:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/24-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 14:14:15 Topic: RADAR 14:14:22 https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Review_radar 14:15:42 Topic: Tracker tweaks 14:15:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/24-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 14:16:18 http://www.w3.org/International/track/ 14:16:32 r12a: We used to have ad-hoc and .prev and .monitor and then the real one, and we rolled all those together 14:16:37 r12a: There's a small problem 14:16:53 r12a: Now, you can't necessarily tell, at a glance, which has already been sent to the WG and which is waiting approval 14:16:58 http://www.w3.org/International/track/products/46 14:17:02 r12a: which is actually being tracked, vs. which is a real comment sent to the WG 14:17:26 r12a: What I've started doing is, wher eyou can see at the end of the title I put a circled t, means we're just tracking this 14:17:46 r12a: circled p is pending expedition to the WG 14:18:39 r12a: my proposal is that in the instructions for how to raise an issue that we tell people to put these little things on at the ppropriate time, or remove them when you're notifying the WG 14:18:39 http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/review-instructions 14:19:08 aphillip: Since we want to invite the unverse at large to make comments, shouldn't those be unmarked, and you and I add notations for the other states? 14:19:31 r12a: Well, I hope they follow instructions. It would save us a lot of grief, and if they follow those instructions, would be simple enough 14:19:49 r12a: I did consider that, but thought it would be easier in the long run if our comments to another WG didn't have these things 14:20:00 aphillip: Didn't want to send Unicode chars to other groups? :) 14:20:09 r12a: Yeah. Also then people might forget them, it gets confusing, etc. 14:20:42 fantasai: You could make them non-Unicode. Put in brackets 14:20:50 r12a: Considered that, but this is cooler. 14:21:44 aphillip: Any other opinions? 14:21:47 [not really] 14:21:48 Seems fine, but might be bettter as prefix 14:22:18 action: richard: modify instrucitons for reviews to include the new markings 14:22:18 Created ACTION-323 - Modify instrucitons for reviews to include the new markings [on Richard Ishida - due 2014-07-31]. 14:22:20 prefices are easier to spot 14:23:08 r12a: want them to be easy to spot, that's why I went for circles 14:24:01 Topic: Locales in HTML 14:24:11 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17859 14:24:57 aphillip: Basically, this is about Ian proposes to add a new piece of markup for indicating the locale of elements in forms 14:25:25 aphillip: ought to be aligned with JS, BCP47 14:25:30 aphillip: We already have an attribute that does that 14:25:41 aphillip: so some ocntention between using lang vs not using lang 14:25:58 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22679 14:26:47 r12a: seems to be some of ppl on the bug are talking about situations an dmixing them 14:26:57 r12a: where you have data being inserted into a page 14:27:20 r12a: fairly obvious that if you do that, and then insert date sample, which is dynamic thing, that you ought to format it according to language of the text into which you're inserting it 14:27:34 r12a: that's a different scenario than having an input field in the text, and you are gathering info from the user 14:27:54 r12a: if you're gathering info with an input field, seems more plausible that you'll want to consider where the user is than the language of the text 14:28:05 r12a: but if you think further, want to use the format of the text 14:28:18 r12a: bigger problem is, if you're asking ppl to type in a numeric date, causing yourself a problem in any case 14:28:27 r12a: currently ? are used to identify the locale 14:28:35 r12a: we're asking for the lang attribute. This will cause inconsistencies 14:28:47 r12a: looking at browsers, don't do anything ... browser settings either 14:29:19 ... 14:29:36 aphillip: Most browsers are like Mozilla. Get a text box. Can type anything into it. type=date is just a suggestion 14:29:46 aphillip: But Chrome has implemented fancy types 14:29:59 aphillip: Because HTML doesn't define anything, the page author has no control over how a date is displayed 14:30:10 aphillip: When field is empty, Chrome shows MM/DD/YY or whatever 14:30:19 aphillip: but if you put a value in the field, all you see is the value 14:30:25 aphillip: the value is transposed into the correct locale 14:30:28 http://www.inter-locale.com/test/DateDemo.html 14:30:55 aphillip: There are 2 entry fields, enter US date or UK date 14:31:09 aphillip: Tagged with different lang values. But show same ordering for me 14:31:47 mine says 01/02/2014 14:31:52 on chrome 14:32:19 fantasai: These are UI controls. Should be in the UI language, lfollow OS convention 14:32:50 r12a: What if you're travelling? can't figure out what the strange ideographic characters are 14:33:07 aphillip: no way to have german calendar on a german page 14:33:17 aphillip: People work aorund this by creating complicated javascript controls 14:33:37 r12a: problem is more, how does the browser know what you mean if you are using numeric input? 14:33:46 r12a: if you type in 01/02/14 14:33:51 r12a: browser has to know what you mean 14:34:02 r12a: if you look at the output , the stored value, it's stored in ISO format 14:34:35 r12a: No matter what the settings are, user could type something stupid 14:34:44 r12a: so a pull-down date widget is the best way to do this 14:34:51 r12a: or something that splits out day/month/year 14:34:56 r12a: like for credit cards 14:35:03 r12a: shouldn't be asking people to write numeric dates 14:35:42 aphillip: Chrome is constraining these, different from historical way 14:36:08 fantasai: That's the whole point of the new types. Browsers that don't do this havent' got around to implementing it yet 14:36:52 r12a: back to point, you don't know how the browser is interpreting it 14:37:19 fantasai: That browser should drop down the widget while you're typing it in 14:37:26 fantasai: so you can see how it's interpreting the typing 14:37:35 aphillip: [...] 14:37:40 aphillip: can't see the prompt once you fill it in 14:37:50 [could use non-numeric dates] 14:38:06 aphillip: Hear that browser should match the user's locale 14:38:15 aphillip: but sometimes you as an author want to control the complete experience 14:38:31 zakim, who's noisy? 14:38:31 sorry, r12a, I don't know what conference this is 14:38:42 zakim, this is i18n 14:38:42 ok, r12a; that matches I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM 14:39:39 I agree with Fantasai, 14:40:08 fantasai: If you have multiple pages, some written in US and some in UK, they'll have inconsitent interfaces. As a user this is not helpful. Won't know what's going on. 14:40:23 fantasai: Should match my locale, my settings. That way I always know what's going on. 14:40:38 fantasai: If you have linguistic info, maybe adapt to the page's language 14:40:38 zakim, who's noisy? 14:40:49 r12a, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fantasai (47%) 14:41:07 fantasai: but numeric stuff should match the locale. If I like 24h clocks, I should get them on all my time widgets, not get am/pm because I happen to be booking in a different country 14:41:49 aphillip: Sounds like whave different opinions 14:41:57 r12a: my inclination is to think that a user control is more related to the user than to the text content language 14:42:22 ... however information inserted into the page should be in the format related to the language 14:42:23 aphillip: If we don't give any way to control these things, then the only way to get a specific presentation is to not use the built-in controls and write it myself 14:43:08 aphillip: Should provide a way to control for content authors who care about it 14:43:15 r12a: I'm not 100% convinced either way 14:43:23 r12a: why is this the same as the JS stuff? 14:43:43 r12a: for JS, you want to take info taken from user, and then insert into document. Want it to look like the rest of the page content 14:44:10 r12a: but in terms of gathering the data from the user, don't see that strong convention 14:44:26 r12a: If guy is reading Tibetan, probably speaks and reads Tibetan, and is happy because system is all in Tibetan 14:44:43 r12a: Case where you run into problems is the Internet café, where you are not necessarily Tibetan 14:44:55 r12a: but in that case, you know what's going on and less likely to make silly mistakes 14:45:18 r12a: You shouldn't be doing numeric data in the first place. Regardless of whether we match system or page, can mess up without noticing 14:46:19 fantasai: I think if the month were not numeric, e.g. 13 Oct 2014, wouldn't have this problem 14:46:31 or rendering it as a 3 field split 14:46:51 that's less likely to look nice. People wnat things to look nice... 14:46:55 then the month field only goes up to 12 14:46:58 etc 14:47:00 aphillip: Not getting anywhere here 14:47:56 Topic: TimeZones in HTML 14:48:06 https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/HTML5TimeZone 14:48:46 aphillip: Put two proposals. 14:48:54 aphillip: Think ? is dead on arrival 14:49:02 aphillip: are we ready to move forward with this and make a proposal? 14:49:13 r12a: Think this needs more time 14:49:45 action: addison: give wg action to read the time zone proposal for action next week 14:49:45 Created ACTION-324 - Give wg action to read the time zone proposal for action next week [on Addison Phillips - due 2014-07-31]. 14:49:56 Topic: Encoding LC 14:54:10 fantasai: Example is a date without a time. Why is there a timezone? Binding it to midnight means that when it shows up in my calendar, it shows up as the previous date (because I'm in SF) 14:55:01 aphillip: go read the note about time info 14:55:21 aphillip: issue here is anyway that we have timezone offsets or nothing, and we need real timezones 14:58:07 [discussion of floating vs non-floating times] 14:59:07 HTML defines time without timezone as floating time, but if you pull it into JS, it gets tied to midnight UTC 14:59:17 aphillip: ^ 14:59:21 aphillip: So this is a real problem 14:59:54 Topic: Encoding LC 15:00:06 http://www.w3.org/International/track/products/25 15:01:19 aphillip: Work on open bugs, or look at received comments? 15:02:22 issue-374? 15:02:22 issue-374 -- Encoding false statement -- open 15:02:22 http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/374 15:02:41 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2014AprJun/0284.html 15:03:24 aphillip: spec states that it renders the IAN registry obsolete 15:03:41 aphillip: Anne accepted some slightly modified text, but probably won't make a real difference 15:03:55 r12a: perhaps should make it clearer what we're referring to 15:03:59 s/IAN/IANA 15:04:33 http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/ 15:04:47 http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/#preface 15:05:04 Historically encodings and their specifications (if any) were kept track of by the IANA Character Sets registry. This specification renders that registry obsolete. 15:05:18 r12a: 2nd sentence is problematic 15:05:27 r12a: to my mind, the way to solve this is to scope that statement a bit better 15:05:48 r12a: Could say that ths spec renders that registry obsolete for the Open Web Platform 15:05:57 r12a: still worrying, cuz don't know what OWP means 15:06:15 r12a: Another possibility, obsoletes that registry for all implementations that use this specification. 15:06:30 aphillip: I think obsolete or replaces isn't really even necessary 15:06:42 aphillip: you don't have to look over there if you're looking here 15:07:19 r12a: Can't use word "obsolete", because you can't obsolete a spec you don't own 15:07:31 r12a: and some ppl will use IANA spec, so can't make a universal statement 15:07:44 r12a: so agree not to use obsolete 15:07:57 fantasai: Replaces seems fine 15:08:02 aphillip: replaces for what? 15:08:11 fantasai: for impl using this spec (as r12a suggested) is fine 15:08:23 aphillip: Then recommend that this spec be used for anyone using the OWP 15:08:47 aphillip: If writing a W3C spec, should reference this spec instead of IANA 15:08:53 r12a: should put that in charmod 15:08:56 aphillip: yes 15:09:06 aphillip: Need to update Charmod for various reasons 15:09:39 fantasai: Don't think it's a problem for a spec to say what it thinks it ought to be used for. Not that shouldn't update charmod as well 15:10:26 r12a: That is a field of land mines 15:10:40 r12a: XML ppl will be very unhappy 15:10:49 r12a: so just a whole lot simpler to just be self-referentia 15:10:50 l 15:11:36 aphillip: If you refer to this spec, then this becomes the definition of encodings and the limit of what encodings are acceptable 15:12:29 aphillip: so we're in agreement with this issue 15:12:36 aphillip: so that suggests filing a bug against Encoding 15:12:48 aphillip: Do we want to write proposed replacement text? 15:13:17 r12a: useful to go to anne with a suggestion, but also useful to talk with anne about this 15:14:03 [discussion of calendaring] 15:14:12 [and bug-filing logistics] 15:16:45 aphillip: I think all of these are going to end up with bugs 15:17:33 action: addison: propose text for the 'false statement' issue 15:17:33 Created ACTION-325 - Propose text for the 'false statement' issue [on Addison Phillips - due 2014-07-31]. 15:19:25 issue-355? 15:19:25 issue-355 -- Supporting files referenced rather than copied -- open 15:19:25 http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/355 15:19:57 accepted 15:20:32 issue-369? 15:20:32 issue-369 -- IANA transition -- open 15:20:32 http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/369 15:21:10 -fantasai 15:21:43 not actionable? 15:21:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/24-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 15:22:05 zakim, who's here/ 15:22:05 I don't understand 'who's here/', r12a 15:22:08 zakim, who's here? 15:22:08 On the phone I see Richard, aphillip, matial, ??P18 15:22:10 On IRC I see aphillip, dclarke, Zakim, RRSAgent, matial, r12a, fantasai, trackbot 15:22:23 zakim, ??P1 is David 15:22:23 +David; got it 15:22:38 -David 15:22:59 close issue-369 15:22:59 Closed issue-369. 15:23:09 issue-371? 15:23:09 issue-371 -- Choice of encoding details -- open 15:23:09 http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/371 15:23:57 richard: anne asked martin for test results 15:24:05 ... should encourage him to provide to anne 15:24:37 issue-372? 15:24:37 issue-372 -- Arithmetic Right Shift -- open 15:24:37 http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/372 15:26:32 richard: looks like anne will do something about it 15:26:43 file a bug against 15:26:55 issue-373? 15:26:55 issue-373 -- Changes of deployment -- open 15:26:55 http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/373 15:28:30 richard: "not accept" and close since based on browser implementations 15:28:36 ... ? 15:34:10 addison: nothing actionable in this item? 15:34:22 ... accept but not file a bug? response is "noted" 15:35:18 zakim, who's here? 15:35:18 On the phone I see Richard, aphillip, matial 15:35:20 On IRC I see aphillip, Zakim, RRSAgent, matial, r12a, fantasai, trackbot 15:35:49 -aphillip 15:35:51 Bye 15:35:56 rrsagent, make minutes 15:35:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/24-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 15:35:58 -matial 15:36:22 Present: Addison, Richard, Fantasai, Mati, David 15:36:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/24-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 15:37:10 ScribeNick: fantasai 15:37:18 Scribe: Elika 15:37:23 rrsagent, make minutes 15:37:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/24-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 15:37:57 -Richard 15:37:59 I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has ended 15:37:59 Attendees were Richard, matial, +aabb, aphillip, fantasai, David 15:38:07 zakim, bye 15:38:07 Zakim has left #i18n 15:38:22 rrsagent, make minutes 15:38:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/24-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 15:39:16 rrsagent, make minutes 15:39:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/24-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 15:39:19 rrsagent, bye 15:39:19 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/24-i18n-actions.rdf : 15:39:19 ACTION: richard: modify instrucitons for reviews to include the new markings [1] 15:39:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/24-i18n-irc#T14-22-18 15:39:19 ACTION: addison: give wg action to read the time zone proposal for action next week [2] 15:39:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/24-i18n-irc#T14-49-45 15:39:19 ACTION: addison: propose text for the 'false statement' issue [3] 15:39:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/24-i18n-irc#T15-17-33