13:00:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webtv
13:00:46 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/07/23-webtv-irc
13:00:51 <Bin_Hu> Bin_Hu has joined #webtv
13:01:03 <kaz> zakim, this will be webtv
13:01:04 <Zakim> ok, kaz, I see UW_WebTVIG()9:00AM already started
13:01:16 <kaz> zakim, call me
13:01:16 <Zakim> Sorry, kaz; you need to be more specific about your location
13:01:22 <kaz> zakim, call kazuyuki-617
13:01:22 <Zakim> ok, kaz; the call is being made
13:01:23 <Zakim> +Kazuyuki
13:01:39 <kaz> zakim, who is here?
13:01:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see Paul_Higgs, Kazuyuki
13:01:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see Bin_Hu, RRSAgent, Zakim, kaz_, yosuke, kaz, PaulHiggs, jcverdie, sangwhan, timeless, schuki, tobie, trackbot
13:01:44 <Zakim> + +1.650.946.aaaa
13:01:55 <kaz> zakim, aaaa is Bin_Hu
13:01:55 <Zakim> +Bin_Hu; got it
13:02:21 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:02:33 <kaz> zakim, who is here?
13:02:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see Paul_Higgs, Kazuyuki, Bin_Hu, [IPcaller]
13:02:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see Bin_Hu, RRSAgent, Zakim, yosuke, kaz, PaulHiggs, jcverdie, sangwhan, timeless, schuki, tobie, trackbot
13:02:42 <kaz_> kaz_ has joined #webtv
13:02:53 <kaz> zakim, IPcaller is yosuke
13:02:53 <Zakim> +yosuke; got it
13:03:31 <ddavis> ddavis has joined #webtv
13:03:44 <kaz> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-and-tv/2014Jul/0003.html
13:03:57 <kaz> zakim, who is here?
13:03:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see Paul_Higgs, Kazuyuki, Bin_Hu, yosuke
13:03:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see ddavis, kaz_, Bin_Hu, RRSAgent, Zakim, yosuke, kaz, PaulHiggs, jcverdie, sangwhan, timeless, schuki, tobie, trackbot
13:04:14 <Zakim> +??P17
13:04:17 <ddavis> zakim, ??P17 is me
13:04:17 <Zakim> +ddavis; got it
13:05:11 <kaz> zakim, who is here?
13:05:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see Paul_Higgs, Kazuyuki, Bin_Hu, yosuke, ddavis
13:05:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see ddavis, kaz_, Bin_Hu, RRSAgent, Zakim, yosuke, kaz, PaulHiggs, jcverdie, sangwhan, timeless, schuki, tobie, trackbot
13:05:42 <kaz_> kaz_ has joined #webtv
13:06:13 <kaz> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:06:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see Paul_Higgs, Kazuyuki, Bin_Hu, yosuke, ddavis
13:08:30 <Zakim> +Daniel_Wester
13:08:49 <yosuke> https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/New_Ideas
13:08:54 <kaz> zakim, Daniel_Wester is Cyril
13:08:54 <Zakim> +Cyril; got it
13:09:03 <CyrilRa> CyrilRa has joined #webtv
13:09:12 <kaz> zakim, Cyril is CyrilRa
13:09:12 <Zakim> +CyrilRa; got it
13:09:20 <ddavis> yosuke: Let's look through the use cases.
13:09:30 <ddavis> yosuke: The reviewer of the first use case is me.
13:09:54 <ddavis> yosuke: This is a simple use case.
13:09:55 <ddavis> https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/New_Ideas
13:10:17 <kaz> https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/New_Ideas#UC2-1_Audio_Fingerprinting
13:10:41 <ddavis> yosuke: I think there are three entities web developers need to specify.
13:10:49 <ddavis> yosuke: The first is audio source - mic, etc.
13:11:03 <ddavis> yosuke: The second is finger-print generation algorithm.
13:11:16 <ddavis> yosuke: The second is the finger-print database, e.g. on the web.
13:11:34 <ddavis> yosuke: These three things are enough to declare a fingerprinting service.
13:11:48 <ddavis> yosuke: In addition, if we have timeout or duration we can have better control.
13:12:08 <ddavis> yosuke: So, this interface should be an asynchronous interface, e.g. JavaScript promises.
13:12:25 <ddavis> yosuke: Because it will take time to resolve the fingerprint from an online service.
13:12:42 <kaz_> kaz_ has joined #webtv
13:13:35 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: What do you mean generation?
13:13:52 <ddavis> yosuke: You need to generate a finger print from the audio source.
13:14:34 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: What you're trying to recognise is in the audio source.
13:14:42 <kaz_> kaz_ has joined #webtv
13:15:06 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: and then process it. I don't think you're creating anything, rather returning an identifier for the audio source.
13:15:40 <ddavis> yosuke: In many cases, fingerprinting services use only one algorithm for their services.
13:16:20 <ddavis> yosuke: In that case, we don't need to specify which algorithm we need.
13:16:29 <Bin_Hu> q+
13:16:29 <kaz> s/The second is the finger-print database/The third is the finger-print database/
13:16:41 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: Are we confusing watermarking and fingerprinting?
13:17:04 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: Watermarking would take an extra identifier encoded as an inaudible tone.
13:17:55 <ddavis> @@@: On the backend you have to have a hash.
13:18:36 <ddavis> s/@@@/CyrilRa/
13:19:02 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
13:19:05 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:19:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/23-webtv-minutes.html kaz
13:19:14 <ddavis> CyrilRa: Would you have the hashing done on the server-side or send a sample?
13:19:29 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: I thought fingerprinting was sending an audio sample.
13:19:41 <ddavis> CyrilRa: So then you'd send it to a recognition service.
13:19:45 <kaz> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:19:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see Paul_Higgs, Kazuyuki, Bin_Hu, yosuke, ddavis, CyrilRa
13:20:01 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: You could do a local hash but that's not generation, that's hashing.
13:20:05 <ddavis> zakim, mute me
13:20:05 <Zakim> ddavis should now be muted
13:20:11 <kaz> Present: Paul_Higgs, Kazuyuki, Bin_Hu, yosuke, ddavis, CyrilRa
13:20:28 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: If the second item said hashing that would be fine.
13:21:08 <ddavis> yosuke: So the front end gets the audio, the back-end service generates a fingerprint.
13:21:24 <ddavis> yosuke: In other services, the front-end gets a hash and sends that to the backend.
13:21:45 <ddavis> yosuke: I'll do some research about existing fingerprinting services.
13:22:34 <ddavis> yosuke: If it's just in audio clips then we don't need to clarify the generation in the use case.
13:23:01 <ddavis> Bin_Hu: It seems we have two functions - one is a database service and one is audio clip matching.
13:23:50 <ddavis> Bin_Hu: The algorithm to match the audio is in the implementation so I think it's a good starting point to do more research about what existing services provide.
13:24:03 <kaz> q?
13:24:08 <ddavis> zakim, unmute me
13:24:08 <Zakim> ddavis should no longer be muted
13:24:15 <kaz> q+
13:24:41 <kaz> ack b
13:24:42 <kaz> ack k
13:24:46 <ddavis> zakim, mute me
13:24:46 <Zakim> ddavis should now be muted
13:25:00 <ddavis> kaz: I was wondering if we should think of a model like EME for this.
13:25:14 <ddavis> kaz: EME has a model for the idea of the mechanism.
13:25:27 <ddavis> kaz: Maybe we could use that as a starting point for the fingerprinting discussion.
13:25:32 <kaz> -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html EME
13:25:52 <ddavis> yosuke: You mean we should create a dialog to understand the architecture?
13:26:00 <ddavis> kaz: Right
13:26:05 <ddavis> s/dialog/diagram/
13:26:17 <ddavis> yosuke: OK, I'll create a diagram based on my understanding.
13:26:50 <ddavis> yosuke: II'll create that and Daniel can check it.
13:26:51 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:26:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/23-webtv-minutes.html kaz
13:27:01 <ddavis> kaz: That's great.
13:27:16 <ddavis> s/II'll/I'll
13:27:36 <kaz> https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/New_Ideas#UC2-2_Audio_Watermarking
13:27:40 <ddavis> yosuke: Next use case is audio watermarking
13:28:01 <kaz> i/UC2-1/topic: UC2-1/
13:28:09 <kaz> i/UC2-2/topic: UC2-2/
13:28:15 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:28:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/23-webtv-minutes.html kaz
13:28:20 <ddavis> yosuke: I think watermarking is much simpler than fingerprinting because we don't need a backend service to generate the watermark.
13:28:34 <CyrilRa> q+
13:28:34 <ddavis> zakim, unmute me
13:28:35 <Zakim> ddavis should no longer be muted
13:29:44 <ddavis> ddavis: Do you still need a backend?
13:30:00 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: No, the data is within the audio stream, as long as you know the algorithm.
13:30:40 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: If someone wanted to, they could encode a link to another service.
13:30:49 <yosuke> q?
13:31:14 <ddavis> zakim, mute me
13:31:14 <Zakim> ddavis should now be muted
13:31:38 <ddavis> CyrilRa: Fingerprinting helps you identify what audio was played, watermarking helps you take action.
13:32:01 <ddavis> CyrilRa: You have to have audio triggers that can be recognised by your client with watermarking.
13:32:32 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: You can think of it like old Teletext scanlines that used to be in the signal.
13:32:58 <ddavis> Bin_Hu: For watermarking, the service provider has to encode something within the stream.
13:33:20 <ddavis> Bin_Hu: Are standards such as the MPEG standard planning to create a standard for embedding this?
13:33:25 <kawada> kawada has joined #webtv
13:33:31 <ddavis> CyrilRa: There's no standard I can think of.
13:34:23 <ddavis> Bin_Hu: From a W3C perspective are we planning to support such a format or accept that it's out of scope.
13:35:35 <Zakim> +??P21
13:35:45 <kawada> zakim, ??P21 is me
13:35:45 <Zakim> +kawada; got it
13:35:53 <kaz> Present+ kawada
13:35:55 <ddavis> Bin_Hu: Lots of new codecs are coming out, e.g. within MPEG, so are we going to look into the method of multiplexing?
13:36:20 <ddavis> Bin_Hu: Or will it be left to the implementation so we won't be directly involved.
13:36:56 <ddavis> CyrilRa: That's one of the main issues with watermarking - you need to know what you're looking for first.
13:38:09 <ddavis> CyrilRa: There's some work being done on the fingerprinting side where you have backend side, and the frontend (player) is capturing samples constantly.
13:38:29 <ddavis> CyrilRa: You then match between these two at exactly the right time.
13:38:59 <ddavis> CyrilRa: That's a way of overcoming the burden of having something inaudible embedded, and also of having to know what to look for.
13:39:51 <ddavis> zakim, next topic
13:39:51 <Zakim> I don't understand 'next topic', ddavis
13:39:55 <ddavis> zakim, next item
13:39:55 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
13:40:13 <kaz> https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/New_Ideas#Media_playback_adjustment
13:40:13 <ddavis> https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/New_Ideas#UC2-3_Identical_Media_Stream_Synchronization
13:41:00 <ddavis> kaz: Originally this had the HTML task force and Web sockets.
13:41:10 <ddavis> kaz: I also added SMIL by the Timed Text WG.
13:41:44 <ddavis> kaz: Also SCXML is a new version of SMIL and these can be used for synchronization.
13:42:24 <ddavis> yosuke: As a next step, we need to clarify what the requirements are.
13:42:49 <ddavis> yosuke: My understanding is stream a single stream to multiple destinations at the same time.
13:42:58 <ddavis> s/yosuke/kaz/
13:43:20 <ddavis> yosuke: In many cases, the bandwidth or transport system is different so they have different buffers or time lag.
13:43:30 <kaz> s/stream a/delivery a/
13:43:58 <ddavis> yosuke: The exact timing could be different, so we need to think about how to adjust the synchronisation between different devices.
13:44:17 <ddavis> kaz: You mean how to keep the multiple streams (with identical content) synchronised.
13:44:56 <ddavis> yosuke: Yes. Maybe a player on a "better" device would have to wait to achieve synchronization with other slower devices.
13:45:03 <ddavis> kaz: So maybe we should add that point.
13:45:09 <ddavis> zakim, unmute me
13:45:09 <Zakim> ddavis should no longer be muted
13:45:46 <ddavis> zakim, mute me
13:45:46 <Zakim> ddavis should now be muted
13:45:54 <ddavis> kaz: What if the system is using DASH?
13:46:04 <ddavis> kaz: It's even more complicated but we should think about that as well.
13:46:33 <ddavis> yosuke: DASH can help with this use case
13:47:06 <kaz> s|https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/New_Ideas#Media_playback_adjustment||
13:47:09 <ddavis> yosuke: If DASH is used, the client will have better presentation timing
13:47:32 <ddavis> yosuke: Probably we need a more generic API to synchronize.
13:47:46 <ddavis> yosuke: The use case is simple but the technology could be complicated.
13:48:41 <ddavis> yosuke: For example, I have a video element and my girlfriend has the same content separately. We'd like to match the timing to achieve synchronisation.
13:48:51 <ddavis> kaz: Maybe we could use WebRTC.
13:49:03 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: I don't know if we need WebRTC. This is not sharing streams.
13:49:24 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: I'm watching something and a friend is watching the same thing from the same source, not re-streaming it.
13:49:32 <ddavis> kaz: So probably without WebRTC.
13:49:58 <ddavis> CyrilRa: What you'd need is a sync service.
13:50:11 <ddavis> kaz: What we need is a very generic timeline mechanism.
13:50:41 <ddavis> yosuke: Could you make a note please on the wiki?
13:50:45 <ddavis> kaz: Will do.
13:50:56 <kaz> s/What we/yes, what we/
13:51:26 <ddavis> yosuke: Next use case.
13:51:27 <ddavis> https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/New_Ideas#UC2-4_Related_Media_Stream_Synchronization
13:51:36 <ddavis> kaz: This is similar
13:51:42 <ddavis> yosuke: We can talk about this next time.
13:51:48 <ddavis> zakim, unmute me
13:51:48 <Zakim> ddavis should no longer be muted
13:53:25 <kaz> https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/New_Ideas#UC2-5_Triggered_Interactive_Overlay
13:54:09 <ddavis> ddavis: What key events were you thinking of?
13:54:29 <ddavis> Bin_Hu: E.g. during the world cup, if there's a goal that would trigger an event.
13:55:32 <kaz> q+
13:55:55 <ddavis> yosuke: The basic way to deliver such metadata is using a text track.
13:56:31 <ddavis> yosuke: What you're talking about is additional information. If we implement that we could use HTML5 text track.
13:57:14 <ddavis> yosuke: Is that correct?
13:57:44 <ddavis> Bin_Hu: Text track may be a fundamental way but in the live event it's not predictable - it may not be possible to add that in a text track.
13:58:00 <ddavis> Bin_Hu: Maybe additional information could be pulled in out-of-band.
13:58:26 <ddavis> Bin_Hu: Text track could be possible if not a live event.
13:59:36 <kaz> q?
13:59:40 <ddavis> ack CyrilRa
13:59:43 <ddavis> ack kaz
14:00:03 <ddavis> Bin_Hu: Or advertising is another situation.
14:00:29 <ddavis> kaz: Maybe the event can be sent to another channel. The destination channel is what the viewer is looking at.
14:01:20 <ddavis> kaz: E.g. if we're watching Harry Potter the info could be in the text track for some event.
14:01:39 <ddavis> kaz: There is a service in Japan like YouTube called NicoNico
14:01:51 <ddavis> kaz: You can add lots of annotations to a video using timings.
14:02:07 <ddavis> kaz: Those kind of annotations could be a trigger to these events.
14:02:14 <ddavis> Bin_Hu: Exactly.
14:02:36 <ddavis> Bin_Hu: This would encoded in-band.
14:02:55 <ddavis> Bin_Hu: The platform implementation would be able to decode this and dispatch the events.
14:03:23 <ddavis> kaz: So the point of the use case is to send such events and show an overlay.
14:03:46 <ddavis> Bin_Hu: Events like start overlay, dismiss overlay should be supported.
14:04:39 <ddavis> yosuke: Next use case: Clean Audio
14:04:40 <ddavis> https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/New_Ideas#UC2-6_Clean_Audio
14:04:56 <ddavis> yosuke: I added a section called Initial Gap Analysis
14:05:37 <ddavis> yosuke: If clean audio tracks are provided through an HTML5 audio element, you can select them through existing interfaces.
14:06:01 <ddavis> yosuke: If they're provided in-band, you can use the in-progress in-band resource tracks specification.
14:06:52 <ddavis> yosuke: There's another feature that a therapist can adjust the acoustic features of audio tracks to assist a disabled user.
14:07:03 <ddavis> yosuke: You can achieve this using the Web Audio API.
14:07:14 <ddavis> yosuke: There are examples of audio equalizers already.
14:07:55 <ddavis> yosuke: So only one point remains - if you use encrypted media extensions for your media tracks it's extremely unlikely the audio could be modified.
14:08:22 <ddavis> yosuke: So I think we should ask the accessibility task force about this point. EME can decrease media accessibility.
14:11:25 <ddavis> yosuke: I thought I should check dependencies with existing web standards and we can basically achieve this use case with existing standards.
14:11:47 <kaz> q+
14:12:56 <ddavis> yosuke: From a practical viewpoint, clean audio is helpful for disabled people.
14:13:35 <ddavis> yosuke: An API to achieve this use case is not so helpful.
14:14:04 <ddavis> yosuke: Promoting the use case itself or encouraging media service providers is a key point to improve accessibility.
14:14:27 <ddavis> ddavis: So it's more about awareness
14:14:30 <ddavis> q?
14:15:08 <ddavis> yosuke: The EME part is important, but apart from that we can achieve this use case with existing standards.
14:15:35 <ddavis> yosuke: We could make a note about how to do this which can help service providers.
14:16:03 <ddavis> yosuke: We can also ask the EME guys and accessibility task force about the potential drawback of using EME.
14:16:17 <ddavis> ddavis: Sounds like a good idea.
14:16:20 <kaz> -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/media-accessibility-reqs/ Media Accessibility User Requirements
14:16:44 <ddavis> kaz: The current draft of the Media Accessibility User Requirements doesn't include encryption.
14:17:01 <ddavis> kaz: We can talk about it with the media accessibility task force and HTML media task force.
14:17:22 <ddavis> yosuke: Kaz or Daniel, could you make this feedback?
14:17:39 <ddavis> kaz: Yes, next Monday is the next media accessibility call.
14:18:03 <ddavis> yosuke: I'll create a note about how to implement clean audio with existing web standards.
14:18:24 <ddavis> yosuke: After that I'd like to ask the accessibility task force to review it.
14:18:31 <ddavis> ddavis: I'm sure they'd be happy to do that.
14:18:34 <kaz> q?
14:18:36 <kaz> q-
14:18:42 <kaz> q+
14:18:46 <ddavis> yosuke: Any further questions or comments?
14:18:53 <ddavis> ack kaz
14:19:16 <ddavis> kaz: During the previous call I had a task to speak with the media accessibility task force about meeting during TPAC in October.
14:19:30 <ddavis> kaz: They're also interested in a joint session.
14:20:17 <ddavis> yosuke: We could have a joint session during the TV IG meeting or we can join their meeting. Do you have any ideas?
14:20:29 <ddavis> kaz: My suggestion is to join their meeting.
14:20:46 <ddavis> kaz: We already have the TV Control API CG joining our TV IG meeting.
14:21:08 <ddavis> yosuke: What's the next step?
14:21:35 <ddavis> kaz: If it's OK, let's ask them to join their meeting. I can suggest this at our next joint call.
14:22:20 <ddavis> yosuke: If we have an accessibility session, it would not be a long session.
14:22:53 <ddavis> yosuke: They can deliver it to more people if they come to our meeting.
14:23:17 <ddavis> yosuke: We could give them a 10-20 minute session and people could learn from them.
14:23:39 <ddavis> yosuke: Then, if IG people are interested in accessibility, they could join their meeting.
14:23:54 <ddavis> kaz:
14:24:09 <ddavis> kaz: We could have our meeting with them joining on Monday, and then we join them on Tuesday.
14:24:15 <kaz> -> http://www.w3.org/2014/11/TPAC/ TPAC schedule
14:24:20 <ddavis> yosuke: Any other business?
14:24:47 <Zakim> -Paul_Higgs
14:24:48 <ddavis> yosuke: Thank you  - meeting is adjourned.
14:24:48 <Zakim> -Bin_Hu
14:24:50 <Zakim> -yosuke
14:24:52 <Zakim> -Kazuyuki
14:24:53 <Zakim> -ddavis
14:25:02 <Zakim> -kawada
14:25:04 <ddavis> rrsagent, generate minutes
14:25:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/23-webtv-minutes.html ddavis
14:25:29 <ddavis> chair: Yosuke
14:25:30 <ddavis> rrsagent, generate minutes
14:25:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/23-webtv-minutes.html ddavis
14:25:43 <kaz> i/Any further questions/topic: Joint meeting with the Accessibility TF/
14:25:50 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:25:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/23-webtv-minutes.html kaz
14:25:53 <yosuke> Thank you very much for scribing the meeting, Daniel.
14:26:03 <ddavis> You're welcome.
14:26:13 <kaz> Meeting: Web&TV IG
14:26:15 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:26:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/23-webtv-minutes.html kaz
14:26:22 <ddavis> Thanks Kaz
14:26:54 <kaz> i/UC2-3/topic: UC2-3/
14:27:01 <ddavis> ddavis has joined #webtv
14:27:02 <kaz> i/UC2-4/topic: UC2-4/
14:27:07 <kaz> i/UC2-5/topic: UC2-5/
14:27:10 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:27:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/23-webtv-minutes.html kaz
14:27:35 <kaz> i/UC2-6/topic: UC2-6/
14:27:36 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:27:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/23-webtv-minutes.html kaz
14:28:40 <ddavis> Thanks - I'll send them out.
14:35:01 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, CyrilRa, in UW_WebTVIG()9:00AM
14:35:03 <Zakim> UW_WebTVIG()9:00AM has ended
14:35:03 <Zakim> Attendees were Paul_Higgs, Kazuyuki, +1.650.946.aaaa, Bin_Hu, yosuke, ddavis, CyrilRa, kawada
16:26:26 <jcverdie> jcverdie has joined #webtv
16:45:02 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webtv