16:52:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:52:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/07/21-aria-irc
16:52:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
16:52:39 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:52:41 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:52:41 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
16:52:42 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:52:42 <trackbot> Date: 21 July 2014
16:53:41 <MichaelC> regrets: Birkir_Gunnarsson, Cynthia_Shelly, Christopher_Gallello, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:53:45 <MichaelC> chair: Michael_Cooper
16:53:52 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jul/0033.html
16:54:02 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log world
16:54:22 <MichaelC> agenda+ Set up formal Wiki to track ARIA feature defects filed against user agents
16:54:49 <MichaelC> agenda+ Issue 545: aria-relevant conflict with Core Accessibility API Mappings https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/545
16:55:06 <MichaelC> agenda+ Issue 638: Generic role for containers like divs and spans https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/638
16:55:31 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
16:55:32 <MichaelC> agenda+ Issue 397: Need a way to specify indeterminate set size https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/397
16:55:34 <MichaelC> agenda+ Issue 510: Review Author Musts https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/510
16:55:52 <MichaelC> agenda+ Issue 619 Disallow host languages from declaring @aria-label from being declared in direct semantic conflict with a host language attribute. https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/619
16:56:02 <MichaelC> agenda+ Issue 610: Comboboxes should allow complex children elements https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/610
16:58:01 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM has now started
16:58:08 <Zakim> +??P3
16:58:38 <Zakim> +[Apple]
17:00:15 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
17:00:17 <Zakim> +??P5
17:00:19 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
17:00:22 <janina> zakim, ??P5 is me
17:00:22 <Zakim> +janina; got it
17:00:37 <MichaelC> zakim, Apple is James_Craig
17:00:37 <Zakim> +James_Craig; got it
17:00:59 <Zakim> + +49.322.110.8.aaaa
17:01:12 <MichaelC> zakim, aaaa is Stefan_Schnabel
17:01:13 <Zakim> +Stefan_Schnabel; got it
17:02:40 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
17:02:49 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:02:49 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
17:02:55 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:02:55 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:02:58 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
17:03:07 <jcraig> agenda?
17:03:40 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:03:40 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Set up formal Wiki to track ARIA feature defects filed against user agents" taken up [from MichaelC]
17:04:34 <jcraig> Cyns and Cooper action to work on this item this week
17:05:03 <Susann_Keohane> Susann_Keohane has joined #aria
17:05:26 <jcraig> Cyns just back from vacation but plan is to centrally track bugs across implementation vendors: WebKit, Moz, Trident (IE), etc
17:05:42 <janina> scribe: janina
17:05:52 <Zakim> +Susann_Keohane
17:05:56 <janina> jcraig: Does this mean trident bugs would have some kind of tracking?
17:06:05 <Susann_Keohane> zakim, aacc is me
17:06:05 <Zakim> sorry, Susann_Keohane, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
17:06:17 <jcraig> JC: Does Trident have a public tracker?
17:06:22 <janina> jcraig: Trident, the IE engine, doesn't have public tracking, yes?
17:06:27 <jcraig> MC: Not sure. NEed to ask Cyns.
17:06:36 <jcraig> s/NEed/Need/
17:06:39 <janina> mc: don't know to what extent we can build
17:07:00 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
17:07:06 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:07:06 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Issue 545: aria-relevant conflict with Core Accessibility API Mappings https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/545" taken up [from MichaelC]
17:07:31 <jcraig> Spec refers to DOM tree changes, where UAIG refers to Accessibility tree changes. UAIG would account for things like showing a hidden div, where the spec version would not.
17:07:31 <jcraig> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/complete#aria-relevant
17:07:32 <jcraig> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_events_visibility
17:07:33 <jcraig> I think the UAIG version is what we want, so the spec (values table of #aria-relevant) would need to be updated to refer to changes in the Accessible tree rather than in the DOM. Probably want some prose updates in aria-live and aria-relevant, too.
17:07:36 <clown> issue-545?
17:07:36 <trackbot> issue-545 -- Resolve live region and aria-relevant conflict between spec an UAIG. -- open
17:07:36 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/545
17:07:49 <janina> scribe: janina
17:08:02 <janina> jcraig: I have action to propose an edit
17:08:14 <janina> jcraig: Believe from the F2F
17:08:38 <janina> .. not sure why this is "meaty"
17:08:51 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#mapping_events_visibility
17:09:14 <janina> jcraig: mozilla differs from other implementations
17:09:34 <janina> .. ambiguous depending on whether dom or aapi tree
17:09:52 <janina> .. need to be explicit, normative, but needs to be documented and really rather editorial
17:10:04 <janina> mc: perhaps he thought needed discussion
17:10:12 <janina> .. or just a ping
17:10:23 <janina> mc: suspect this is sufficient for now
17:10:59 <janina> jcraig: re-reading the issue -- if wg is comfortable closing based on action, i'm ok with that
17:11:12 <janina> .. my modus is to leave issue open until action is accepted
17:11:28 <janina> mc: agree to keeping issue open pending acceptance of disposition
17:11:55 <jcraig> s/mozilla differs from other implementations/mozilla differs from other implementations in that sometimes it shows hidden nodes in the accessibility tree (marked as hidden). Need spec to disambiguate AX tree, not DOM tree./
17:13:09 <jcraig> js: Need a standard procedure for this. Probably err on the side of keeping issues open until ACTIONs are complete.
17:13:12 <Zakim> + +1.415.624.aabb
17:13:21 <jcraig> scibe: jcraig
17:13:22 <clown> issue-638?
17:13:22 <trackbot> issue-638 -- Generic container roles for things like div/span… -- open
17:13:22 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/638
17:13:28 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:13:28 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Issue 638: Generic role for containers like divs and spans https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/638" taken up [from MichaelC]
17:13:33 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
17:13:42 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
17:14:15 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
17:14:31 <jcraig> Actions on Cyns and jcraig
17:14:40 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
17:14:40 <Zakim> sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not see a party named 'Bryan_Garaventa'
17:15:05 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, aadd is Bryan_Garaventa
17:15:05 <Zakim> sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not recognize a party named 'aadd'
17:15:13 <jcraig> MC: Don't want to have Cyns or Microsoft feel they have open questions while the rest of the group is resolved/
17:15:18 <clown> issue-397?
17:15:18 <trackbot> issue-397 -- Need a way to specify an indeterminate set size -- open
17:15:18 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/397
17:15:23 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:15:23 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Issue 397: Need a way to specify indeterminate set size https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/397" taken up [from MichaelC]
17:16:05 <Zakim> -Susann_Keohane
17:17:12 <jcraig> JN: we know we have *at least* some number of rows and that there are more.
17:17:42 <janina> scribe: janina
17:17:56 <janina> jcraig: option leave setsize as currently known and indicate more
17:18:21 <janina> .. could be a token, ARIA-Indeterminate=Incomplete, or some such
17:18:33 <joanie> q+ to propose -1 as a value
17:18:51 <jcraig> ack jo
17:18:51 <Zakim> joanie, you wanted to propose -1 as a value
17:19:21 <janina> jd: Do we really need another property? I understand real number is valuable, but why not -1, means "I can't do anything with this"
17:20:02 <janina> jn: we tend to do things like "1 of 10 of 100+" which indicates good info, and an unknown limit
17:20:11 <janina> jn: -1 would break that
17:20:25 <janina> jcraig: speculating on fallback
17:20:46 <janina> mc: aria-setsize is integer
17:21:21 <janina> jcraig: might break strict backwards compat, but we could finess that
17:21:39 <janina> mc: should check our assumptions on fallbacks
17:21:50 <janina> mc: could be OK, but we need to know
17:22:03 <jcraig> could allow "100+" or "9999+" as an allowed value
17:22:35 <janina> mc: allowing + at end of integer, any others?
17:22:40 <jcraig> ">9999"
17:22:49 <janina> jn: google mail does "of many"
17:22:55 <Zakim> +??P7
17:23:37 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P7 is Lisa_Seeman
17:23:37 <Zakim> +Lisa_Seeman; got it
17:24:01 <janina> jn: google also has "1 to 20 of about xxx"
17:24:16 <Lisa_Seeman> Lisa_Seeman has joined #aria
17:24:28 <janina> mc: would need escaping of greater-than symbol, an authoring problem
17:24:34 <jcraig> mc: would need to escape < so lets avoid it ">9999"
17:24:50 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
17:26:02 <jcraig> proposals: allow omitting the value (not required attr) to mean indeterminate
17:26:41 <jcraig> proposals: add a + character to the integer value "100+" to indicate more than 100.
17:27:10 <jcraig> proposals: new aria-indeterminate attr with token values (dropped)
17:30:44 <jcraig> action: joanie to raise issue-397 with moz/nvda devs regarding aria-setsize="999+" format
17:30:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1485 - Raise issue-397 with moz/nvda devs regarding aria-setsize="999+" format [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2014-07-28].
17:31:39 <jcraig> action: joanie to inspect webkit backwards-compatibility regarding aria-setsize="999+" format for issue-397
17:31:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1486 - Inspect webkit backwards-compatibility regarding aria-setsize="999+" format for issue-397 [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2014-07-28].
17:31:40 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1485 with issue-397
17:31:40 <trackbot> action-1485 (Raise issue-397 with moz/nvda devs regarding aria-setsize="999+" format) associated with issue-397.
17:31:51 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1486 with issue-397
17:31:51 <trackbot> action-1486 (Inspect webkit backwards-compatibility regarding aria-setsize="999+" format for issue-397) associated with issue-397.
17:33:16 <jcraig> action: cyns to raise issue-397 with ie/trident devs regarding aria-setsize="999+" format (mainly, would the format change break backwards-compalibility with IE source?)
17:33:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1487 - Raise issue-397 with ie/trident devs regarding aria-setsize="999+" format (mainly, would the format change break backwards-compalibility with ie source?) [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2014-07-28].
17:33:23 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1487 with issue-397
17:33:23 <trackbot> action-1487 (Raise issue-397 with ie/trident devs regarding aria-setsize="999+" format (mainly, would the format change break backwards-compalibility with ie source?)) associated with issue-397.
17:34:27 <jcraig> action: jcraig to propose spec text for allowing aria-setsize="999+" format change for issue-397
17:34:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1488 - Propose spec text for allowing aria-setsize="999+" format change for issue-397 [on James Craig - due 2014-07-28].
17:34:30 <MichaelC> action-1485 due 4 weeks
17:34:30 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1488 with issue-397
17:34:31 <trackbot> Set action-1485 Raise issue-397 with moz/nvda devs regarding aria-setsize="999+" format due date to 2014-08-18.
17:34:31 <trackbot> action-1488 (Propose spec text for allowing aria-setsize="999+" format change for issue-397) associated with issue-397.
17:36:23 <jcraig> issue-397: call discussion revolved around allow ommission (indeterminate set size) and additional value format (e.g. "999+") for the large set sizes that are indeterminate but with known minimum size (jn: *at least* this large a set)
17:36:23 <trackbot> Notes added to issue-397 Need a way to specify an indeterminate set size.
17:36:35 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:36:35 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Issue 510: Review Author Musts https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/510" taken up [from MichaelC]
17:36:42 <clown> issue-510?
17:36:42 <trackbot> issue-510 -- Review all Author MUST statements in spec (and UAIG?) -- open
17:36:42 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/510
17:37:42 <jcraig> mc: author must statements hard to enforce. need to review each
17:39:04 <jcraig> jc: benefit is primarily for validation.
17:39:24 <janina> there's RFC6919's "ought to"
17:39:26 <jcraig> mc: could turn these into validator statements
17:43:08 <jcraig> jc: more useful as author statements, validators can infer
17:43:37 <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#conformance_checkers
17:45:59 <MichaelC> issue-510: Author must statements are there for a reason, so conformance checkers have something to key off of. Testing is trivial just by creating valid markup examples. No other good reason to remove. Closing issue.
17:46:00 <trackbot> Notes added to issue-510 Review all Author MUST statements in spec (and UAIG?).
17:46:03 <MichaelC> close issue-510
17:46:03 <trackbot> Closed issue-510.
17:46:08 <jcraig> q+ to ask about janina's rfc-6919 "ought to"
17:46:21 <jcraig> ack me
17:46:21 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to ask about janina's rfc-6919 "ought to"
17:46:39 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:46:40 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Issue 619 Disallow host languages from declaring @aria-label from being declared in direct semantic conflict with a host language attribute.
17:46:42 <Zakim> ... https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/619" taken up [from MichaelC]
17:46:47 <clown> issue-619?
17:46:47 <trackbot> issue-619 -- ARIA 1.1 should disallow host languages from declaring @aria-label from being declared in direct semantic conflict with a host language attribute. -- open
17:46:47 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/619
17:47:17 <janina> scribe: janina
17:47:46 <janina> jcraig: concerned, maybe too concerned, conflicts range valuenow and value
17:48:05 <janina> .. some attribs more or less the same as lable
17:48:13 <janina> .. but aria-label always overides
17:48:44 <janina> .. maybe if we say aria-label cannot be overridden by ml
17:49:09 <janina> .. editors of other specs have done some wacky things -- that's the concern here
17:49:16 <janina> .. and I may be over-concerned
17:49:35 <janina> .. we always aria labeling to win, that's the point
17:49:41 <clown> +1
17:49:59 <janina> mc: host lang section allows certain degree of overide
17:50:15 <janina> mc aria wins unless ... ...
17:50:44 <janina> mc: not providing limits, perhaps we need to document limits
17:51:05 <janina> jcraig: perhaps alt wins over aria-label, may complicate computation
17:51:33 <janina> mc: avoided disaster, but phps should develop this section
17:51:46 <janina> jcraig aria-label and aria-labeledby are the two main ones
17:51:57 <janina> mc: phps "with the exception of the following ..."
17:51:58 <jcraig> i might just be paranoid. have no evidence that any spec authors/editors would do this, but we could limit the host language
17:52:19 <jcraig> s/phps/perhaps/
17:52:32 <jcraig> s/phps/perhaps/g
17:52:49 <jcraig> zakim, unmute michaelC
17:52:49 <Zakim> Michael_Cooper should no longer be muted
17:54:04 <MichaelC> action: cooper to propose spec text to limit what ARIA attributes can be overridden by strong native semantics (e.g., aria-label and aria-labelledby)
17:54:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1489 - Propose spec text to limit what aria attributes can be overridden by strong native semantics (e.g., aria-label and aria-labelledby) [on Michael Cooper - due 2014-07-28].
17:54:22 <MichaelC> associate action-1489 with issue-619
17:54:22 <trackbot> action-1489 (Propose spec text to limit what aria attributes can be overridden by strong native semantics (e.g., aria-label and aria-labelledby)) associated with issue-619.
17:57:28 <clown> issue-610?
17:57:28 <trackbot> issue-610 -- Comboboxes should allow complex children elements -- open
17:57:28 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/610
18:04:31 <janina> jcraig: could have combos associated with in line, so auto updates when top level updates
18:04:44 <janina> jcraig: but if focus changes ... still ok, no?
18:04:50 <janina> jn: yes
18:05:30 <janina> jn: our problem at that point is sr behavior
18:05:40 <janina> jn: switching into their sr mode
18:05:53 <janina> jn: issue is getting back to the widget
18:06:05 <janina> jn: because now nav virtual buffer in sr
18:06:17 <janina> jcraig: so manages focus?
18:06:19 <janina> jn: yes
18:06:29 <Zakim> -Lisa_Seeman
18:06:47 <janina> jn: spec would need to define the expected behavior here
18:10:04 <jcraig> product-17?
18:10:04 <trackbot> Sorry, but product details are unavailable.
18:11:31 <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#combobox
18:13:31 <jcraig> issue-640?
18:13:31 <trackbot> issue-640 -- Investigate aria-hasmanagedfocus to indicate whether a region manages focus to enable complex widgets -- closed
18:13:31 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/640
18:14:55 <jcraig> ACTION-1362?
18:14:55 <trackbot> ACTION-1362 -- James Craig to Patch issue-640: aria-hasmanagedfocus -- due 2014-02-01 -- OPEN
18:14:55 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1362
18:15:37 <jcraig> issue-610: related to ACTION-1362
18:15:37 <trackbot> Notes added to issue-610 Comboboxes should allow complex children elements.
18:27:01 <Zakim> -Stefan_Schnabel
18:27:53 <jcraig> action: jnurthen to propose spec text edit for issue-610: Comboboxes should allow complex children elements
18:27:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1490 - Propose spec text edit for issue-610: comboboxes should allow complex children elements [on James Nurthen - due 2014-07-28].
18:28:38 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
18:28:39 <Zakim> -James_Craig
18:28:39 <Zakim> -janina
18:28:40 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
18:28:41 <Zakim> -Joanmarie_Diggs
18:28:42 <Zakim> - +1.415.624.aabb
18:29:17 <jcraig> trackbot, associate ACTION-1490 with issue-610
18:29:17 <trackbot> ACTION-1490 (Propose spec text edit for issue-610: comboboxes should allow complex children elements) associated with issue-610.
18:31:56 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM has ended
18:31:56 <Zakim> Attendees were Michael_Cooper, Joanmarie_Diggs, janina, James_Craig, +49.322.110.8.aaaa, Stefan_Schnabel, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Susann_Keohane, +1.415.624.aabb, James_Nurthen,
18:31:56 <Zakim> ... Lisa_Seeman
18:32:18 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
18:32:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/21-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
18:33:29 <MichaelC> rrsagent, bye
18:33:29 <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/21-aria-actions.rdf :
18:33:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: joanie to raise issue-397 with moz/nvda devs regarding aria-setsize="999+" format [1]
18:33:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/21-aria-irc#T17-30-44
18:33:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: joanie to inspect webkit backwards-compatibility regarding aria-setsize="999+" format for issue-397 [2]
18:33:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/21-aria-irc#T17-31-39
18:33:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: cyns to raise issue-397 with ie/trident devs regarding aria-setsize="999+" format (mainly, would the format change break backwards-compalibility with IE source?) [3]
18:33:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/21-aria-irc#T17-33-16
18:33:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcraig to propose spec text for allowing aria-setsize="999+" format change for issue-397 [4]
18:33:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/21-aria-irc#T17-34-27
18:33:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: cooper to propose spec text to limit what ARIA attributes can be overridden by strong native semantics (e.g., aria-label and aria-labelledby) [5]
18:33:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/21-aria-irc#T17-54-04
18:33:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jnurthen to propose spec text edit for issue-610: Comboboxes should allow complex children elements [6]
18:33:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/21-aria-irc#T18-27-53
18:33:30 <MichaelC> zakim, bye
18:33:30 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria