12:57:04 RRSAgent has joined #svg 12:57:04 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/07/17-svg-irc 12:57:06 RRSAgent, make logs public 12:57:06 Zakim has joined #svg 12:57:08 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 12:57:08 ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG()9:00AM already started 12:57:09 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 12:57:09 Date: 17 July 2014 12:58:26 +krit 12:58:50 +[IPcaller] 12:58:52 Zakim, [ is me 12:58:52 +heycam; got it 13:00:10 Zakim, who is on the call? 13:00:10 On the phone I see ??P15, krit, heycam 13:00:46 +[IPcaller] 13:00:52 Zakim, [ is me 13:00:52 +birtles; got it 13:01:01 zakim, ??P15 is me 13:01:01 +Smailus; got it 13:01:11 +??P10 13:01:19 Zakim, ?P10 is me 13:01:19 sorry, nikos__, I do not recognize a party named '?P10' 13:01:25 Zakim, ??P10 is me 13:01:25 +nikos__; got it 13:01:27 Chair: Cameron 13:01:54 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2014JulSep/0009.html 13:02:39 zakim, who is noisy? 13:02:50 krit, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: 5 (4%), Smailus (8%) 13:04:17 Regrets: Erik 13:04:22 + +33.9.75.61.aaaa 13:04:47 Zakim, aaa is Tav 13:04:47 sorry, krit, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa' 13:04:51 Zakim, aaaa is Tav 13:04:51 +Tav; got it 13:05:05 ScribeNick: krit 13:05:10 ScribeNick krit 13:05:28 topic: list object method issues 13:05:28 +??P16 13:05:38 zakim, ??P16 is me 13:05:38 +stakagi; got it 13:05:45 heycam: there are some issue that I wanted to bring up 13:05:51 heycam: bringing back up tpday 13:05:57 heycam: no spec changes till today 13:06:04 heycam: FF should align to something 13:06:30 heycam: in the spec, the methods on the list types LengthList… if you call with Length object and it is owned from another element 13:06:34 heycam: what should happen 13:06:43 ChrisL has joined #svg 13:06:45 heycam: the spec says it should be removed from the other link 13:06:48 *list 13:07:15 heycam: spec does not say if you try to append a baseVal or animVal from another element 13:07:22 krit: not sure what you mean 13:07:22 textElement.x.baseVal.appendItem(rectElement.x.baseVal) 13:07:40 +ChrisL 13:07:53 heycam: the spec says for lists but not for types like the case above 13:08:04 krit: did yo check browsers 13:08:21 heycam: browsers don’t agree 13:08:25 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-svg-wg/2014JulSep/0001.html 13:08:53 heycam: IE is most consistent 13:09:24 heycam: nobody says what the spec says 13:09:48 heycam: no browser removed elements from another list 13:09:58 krit: sure about that? We had tests in WebKit 13:10:13 heycam: I should test that as welll 13:10:37 heycam: the test here was for SVGLength 13:10:46 heycam: tried to append that to a list 13:10:55 heycam: and the other way around 13:11:34 heycam: for those cases (property on element) no browsers appends the object to the list but creates a copy (at least IE) 13:11:53 heycam: FF adds a reference to the list… two places reference to the same SVGLength 13:12:33 heycam: for the case where SVGLength is in a list, we create a copy before adding it to baseVal 13:12:57 heycam: Safari and Blink crashed both on the last case 13:13:46 heycam: I think we want to follow IEs behavior… it is most consistent 13:16:14 It *is* important to make the SVG DOM better. It is the number one complaint 13:16:45 krit: I am fine with following IE, independent of consistency 13:17:00 krit: who is complaining 13:17:19 ChrisL: We had a lot of complains about how SVG DOM works in general 13:19:26 heycam: did not get manually created Lists, SVGLength values but should do that 13:20:09 heycam: are you ok with resolving all 4 parts of the proposels 13:20:55 krit: how about removing SVGLength from animVal list and appending it somewhere else? 13:21:10 heycam: that is the last item… IE and FF still create a copy 13:22:08 krit: did you try removing elements form animVal lists? 13:22:11 heycam: not yet 13:22:50 heycam: so krit, you want to copy even on baseVal lists? 13:23:47 heycam: As long as I can create SVGLengh and append it to a list I want to keep reference 13:24:06 heycam: between baseVal lists, I am probably fine to create copies as well 13:24:18 heycam: I would limit the resolution to the 4 cases for now 13:24:45 heycam: any objections to the proposed behavior of creating copies for the 4 cases in my demo? 13:24:49 ChrisL: seems ok for me 13:25:16 RESOLUTION: Appending an SVG item that is owned by another item should create a copy before appending 13:25:45 action: heycam Edit spec: Appending an SVG item that is owned by another item should create a copy before appending 13:25:46 Created ACTION-3634 - Edit spec: appending an svg item that is owned by another item should create a copy before appending [on Cameron McCormack - due 2014-07-24]. 13:26:05 topic: A11Y TF 13:26:06 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/work-statement 13:26:28 heycam: I was send a draft of the charter for this TF 13:26:38 heycam: didn’t review unless recently 13:26:42 heycam: here it is 13:26:51 heycam: you probably didn’t look at it yet 13:27:07 heycam: Main issue: under which WG should it live 13:27:20 heycam: the document says jointly in SVG and A11Y group 13:27:37 joint (like FX) and separate ml seems fine 13:27:39 heycam: as TF product and comments go to the mailing list of this TF 13:28:08 heycam: most of it describes the mapping guide for SVG elements to roles 13:28:23 heycam: that is the main document 13:28:29 krit: what else is on the scope 13:28:31 "The primary tool for providing feedback to the SVG WG is Bugzilla." is that true/desireable? 13:28:41 heycam: a11y notes 13:28:48 heycam: but not part of the TF 13:30:18 ChrisL: TF can’t add anything to the scope that isn’t already in the scope of all participating WGs 13:30:38 ChrisL: so we need to make sure that the important things are in the scope of the SG wG 13:31:54 heycam: also in the charta: weekly tel conferences 13:33:22 ChrisL: having a situation where ppl get scared by penalties and don’t participate isn’t good same where it is not enforced like FX TF and the there is no joint work all together 13:33:30 +Doug_Schepers 13:33:54 +[IBM] 13:35:00 +1 to Doug 13:36:06 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/work-statement 13:36:29 [general discussion about imporatance about TF chartas ] 13:39:15 shepazu: there is this mapping document with a11y requirements…. but is that all we can do? 13:39:33 rich: I agree… we can do more than that 13:40:10 ChrisL: it shouldn’t be to narrow… the scope should be broader... 13:40:24 -stakagi 13:40:32 ChrisL: addresses are ppl implementing and ppl creating accessible documents 13:40:39 rich: I agree 13:40:55 ChrisL: speaking about open: WPS is a member only group... 13:40:59 shepazu: not anymore 13:41:04 woohoo! 13:41:15 +??P25 13:41:17 rich: All aria is done in the open same for implementation guides 13:41:26 zakim, ??P25 is me 13:41:26 +stakagi; got it 13:41:27 ChrisL: woohoo! 13:42:07 shepazu: I might be wrong 13:42:10 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/charter201006 13:42:32 ChrisL: it is chartered as a members only group but decides to do specs open 13:42:51 heycam: at least the TF charter has an open mailing list 13:43:07 ChrisL: th echarter needs to specifically say it is public 13:43:13 shepazu: and broader scope 13:44:27 heycam: do TF need to have a staff contact 13:44:31 ChrisL: not really 13:44:42 heycam: it says it needs to be decided who chairs 13:45:39 heycam: I’ll reply with the two requests from above 13:45:52 list of participants leads to a "not authorized" page 13:46:07 topic: SVG WG charta 13:47:13 -stakagi 13:47:29 ChrisL: just want to make sure that we have the right names for a11y specs 13:47:44 rich: yeah, I need to check who is working on the 2nd document 13:47:57 +??P25 13:48:08 zakim, ??P25 is me 13:48:08 +stakagi; got it 13:48:10 rich: we have authoring user guide… we will have one for HTML… shepazu do you want to do the one for SVG? 13:48:19 shepazu: I I I I got.. I I 13:48:55 s/I I I I got.. I I/ I think I can tag all that/ 13:49:02 heycam I saw your email with feedback, krit yours too. I will fold in those edits after the call 13:49:18 ChrisL, thanks 13:50:12 shepazu: I would rather want to have a document on WPD instead of a static document 13:52:10 heycam: when do we need to send the last comments? 13:52:14 ChrisL: today! 13:52:33 ChrisL: (or by Tuesday) 13:57:21 Please use a browser that supports Connectors stuff 13:57:31 shepazu: What do you think about CC license? 13:57:47 s/CC/CC-BY 13:57:49 shepazu: or public domain 13:58:07 s/or public domain// 13:58:10 difference is that it requires attribution 13:58:37 heycam: IIRC David Baron has problems with CC-By 13:59:01 shepazu: Some ppl believe that CC=By is not compatible with GPL 13:59:28 shepazu: that is Mozilla’s lawyer interpretation but not of everyone 13:59:51 reasonable legal opinion disagrees that CC-By is not compatible with GPL 14:02:22 krit: we use SVG2 on base of SVG 1.1… which is licensed with W3C license… we can change it but AC might push back 14:06:21 ChrisL: please send feedback to chart before tuesday 14:06:23 -[IBM] 14:06:26 -Smailus 14:06:29 -Tav 14:06:30 -birtles 14:06:31 -nikos__ 14:06:32 -heycam 14:06:33 trackbot, make minutes 14:06:33 Sorry, krit, I don't understand 'trackbot, make minutes'. Please refer to for help. 14:06:39 -krit 14:06:40 -stakagi 14:06:40 -ChrisL 14:06:44 -Doug_Schepers 14:06:45 GA_SVGWG()9:00AM has ended 14:06:45 Attendees were krit, [IPcaller], heycam, birtles, Smailus, nikos__, +33.9.75.61.aaaa, Tav, stakagi, ChrisL, Doug_Schepers, [IBM] 14:06:56 trackbot, make minutes 14:06:56 Sorry, krit, I don't understand 'trackbot, make minutes'. Please refer to for help. 14:06:59 RRSAgent, make minutes 14:06:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/17-svg-minutes.html nikos__ 14:07:06 wrong bot =) 14:07:12 nikos__: which one? 14:07:18 ahh 15:37:36 bah. IE seems to be crashing when an SVG is used as a background-image 15:37:42 Does anyone know about this? 15:38:01 arjunmeh_, it should work just fine. Can you upload the file that crashes? 15:38:27 here's the page: http://23.239.12.206:8000/posts/2014-04-05-geohash-proximity-pt2.html 15:39:06 pdr_: It seems to go away when I remove background images from an element 15:39:30 arjunmehta, can you narrow it down to which image is causing the crash? 15:39:40 pdr_: one sec, will test something 15:50:07 agh, how to disable javascript in IE? 15:54:12 pdr_: okay, it seems maybe to have something to do with sheer number of SVGs loaded 15:54:38 Probably running out of memory. I bet IE draws background-image into a backing store 15:54:57 (Just a guess though) 15:56:54 pdr_: It's hard to know if it's related to background images. I removed a block of about 30 SVG images from the page, and it stopped crashing 15:57:29 pdr: Another page seems to crash as well, and there are only a few images on there, but they have SMIL animation 15:57:43 pdr: http://23.239.12.206:8000/posts/2014-07-03-time-scale.html 15:58:25 pdr: It doesn't crash on load, but rather when I try to navigate away from the page 15:58:58 arjunmehta, IE doesn't support SMIL so I suspect it's the same bug as the other pages 15:59:10 these graphics are quite nice btw 15:59:16 Zakim has left #svg 15:59:17 pdr: the first page I shared has no SMIL SVGs 15:59:47 pdr: but the second one has almost all SMIL-based SVGs. I wish I could test more, but I'm not on a windows machine 16:00:33 If you need it to work on IE, you'll have to use something other than smil :/ 16:01:05 Could you try switching to using inline svg or

instead of background-image? 16:01:15 arjunmehta, I don't have my windows box handy either :/ 16:01:32 pdr: ahhh, MAY have something to do with FONTS in SVG 16:03:20 pdr: yeah, I think it is embedded fonts in SVG. Which doesn't seem to work anywhere anyway 16:06:28 pdr: yes that was the problem, sorry. Embedded Fonts in SVGs seem to be causing IE to crash 16:07:24 nice find :) Would be great if you could file that in their bug tracker to save the next person the trouble :) (https://connect.microsoft.com/ie/) 16:40:34 arjunmehta has joined #svg 16:40:36 oops, not sure how, but the meeting minutes went to the private css mailing list :P 16:41:18 ahh, wrote w3c-css instead of w3c-svg :P 16:45:32 Problem Description: When loading a site with an SVG that has CSS embedded Fonts, either as Binary or @font-face links, IE will load the page fine, but when navigating away from the page will crash. 16:45:56 What is the Expected Behavior: The application should load the fonts in the SVGs. Ref. Chrome, Safari, Opera, Firefox etc. 16:45:56 The application should not crash. 16:45:58 arjunmehta, sweet! Thanks for doing that 16:49:37 pdr: no problem. I feel like SVG is so critical for the future of web graphics, it's a bummer that it's taking so long to be picked up and integrated well in all browsers. 16:52:03 Hmmm, I wonder if anyone here knows how to reload an SVG object programmatically with js? 16:52:20 if it's embedded in an