14:43:39 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:43:39 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/07/17-html-a11y-irc
14:43:41 RRSAgent, make logs world
14:43:43 Zakim, this will be 2119
14:43:43 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 43 minutes ago
14:43:44 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:43:44 Date: 17 July 2014
14:48:04 agenda?
14:48:14 zakim, clear agenda
14:48:14 agenda cleared
14:48:20 Meeting: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference
14:48:21 Chair: Janina
14:48:21 agenda+ Identify Scribe
14:48:21 agenda+ Longdesc
14:48:21 agenda+ Media Subteam
14:48:23 agenda+ Useful Alt Techniques Publication
14:48:25 agenda+ Date-UI Overview
14:48:28 agenda+ HTML 5.1 Next Steps
14:48:30 agenda+ Other Business
14:48:33 agenda+ Identify Chair and Scribe for the next TF teleconference
14:48:35 agenda+ be done
14:50:45 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has now started
14:50:52 +Mark_Sadecki
14:56:25 paulc has joined #html-a11y
14:57:52 +??P0
14:59:03 +McCarron
14:59:11 zakim, McCarron is ShaneM
14:59:11 +ShaneM; got it
14:59:49 aardrian has joined #html-a11y
14:59:50 +Adrian_Roselli
15:00:02 trackbot, start meeting
15:00:04 zakim, who is here?
15:00:04 On the phone I see Mark_Sadecki, ??P0, ShaneM, Adrian_Roselli
15:00:04 RRSAgent, make logs world
15:00:06 On IRC I see aardrian, paulc, RRSAgent, ShaneM, MarkS, IanPouncey, liam, janina__, Zakim, sivoais, hober, cabanier, trackbot
15:00:06 Zakim, this will be 2119
15:00:07 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 60 minutes ago
15:00:07 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:00:07 Date: 17 July 2014
15:00:58 Judy has joined #html-a11y
15:01:51 ScribeNick: ShaneM
15:02:05 zakim, take up item 1
15:02:05 agendum 1. "Identify Scribe" taken up [from janina__]
15:02:11 zakim, take up item 2
15:02:11 agendum 2. "Longdesc" taken up [from janina__]
15:02:19 zakim, close item 1
15:02:19 agendum 1, Identify Scribe, closed
15:02:20 I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:02:20 2. Longdesc [from janina__]
15:02:28 Can we add an agenda item for "publish "Techniques for providing useful text alternatives" as an WG note."?
15:02:33 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #html-a11y
15:02:41 richardschwerdtfeger has left #html-a11y
15:02:44 zakim, who's on the phone?
15:02:44 I notice WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has restarted
15:02:45 On the phone I see Mark_Sadecki, ??P0, ShaneM, Adrian_Roselli, [Microsoft], Judy
15:02:58 janina__: Making progress. Hope to be done in time for the team coordination call this afternoon.
15:02:58 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #html-a11y
15:03:17 +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:03:28 zakim, [??P0] is Janina
15:03:28 sorry, Judy, I do not recognize a party named '[??P0]'
15:03:30 ... assuming the answers are right and meets approval we will proceed with that.
15:03:34 zakim, ??P0 is Janina
15:03:34 +Janina; got it
15:03:35 agenda+ Techniques for providing useful alt techniques - Publication plan
15:03:48 zakim, agenda?
15:03:48 I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
15:03:50 2. Longdesc [from janina__]
15:03:50 3. Media Subteam [from janina__]
15:03:50 4. Useful Alt Techniques Publication [from janina__]
15:03:50 5. Date-UI Overview [from janina__]
15:03:50 6. HTML 5.1 Next Steps [from janina__]
15:03:50 7. Other Business [from janina__]
15:03:51 8. Identify Chair and Scribe for the next TF teleconference [from janina__]
15:03:51 9. be done [from janina__]
15:03:51 10. Techniques for providing useful alt techniques - Publication plan [from MarkS]
15:03:52 zakim, Microsoft has Paul_Cotton
15:03:52 +Paul_Cotton; got it
15:04:04 zakim, next item
15:04:04 agendum 3. "Media Subteam" taken up [from janina__]
15:04:42 zakim, close item 10
15:04:42 agendum 10, Techniques for providing useful alt techniques - Publication plan, closed
15:04:44 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:04:44 3. Media Subteam [from janina__]
15:04:45 janina__: close to publishing today, but there are some items that need to be clarified. At least one will take a little bit of time. Publication will be pushed into next week. Hopefully no further.
15:05:03 ... the items to clear up are in the front and end matter.
15:05:12 +JF
15:05:25 Judy: michael confirmed that he has time to assist with getting this out next week.
15:05:36 JF has joined #html-a11y
15:06:00 +Liam
15:06:03 ... there is a section of significant comment pending (from the education outreach working group). Typically there would be an editorial note in the document so that readers know there is additional content coming.
15:06:47 janina__: this is in the very first section - explanation of how various disabilities effect a users ability to access the internet.
15:07:17 q+
15:08:00 Judy: we are not going to make the updates right now - just let readers know it is coming.
15:08:08 MarkS: actually the editorial note is already there.
15:08:24 zakim, next item
15:08:24 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, ShaneM
15:08:29 q-
15:08:31 zakim, next item
15:08:31 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, ShaneM
15:08:36 q-
15:08:39 ack ma
15:08:43 ack me
15:08:46 zakim, next item
15:08:46 agendum 4. "Useful Alt Techniques Publication" taken up [from janina__]
15:09:49 janina__: everything is approved. is there a way to get the final draft with Sotd circulated?
15:10:26 ... for example the document we reviewed still says "Draft".
15:11:00 paulc: the status section is probably inappropriate for a working group note. surprised I didn't catch that.
15:11:09 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Jun/0055.html
15:11:15 ... the working group decision was made on 20 June. Who is on point? Why has this not yet been published?
15:12:39 ... at what level of decision making do you want approval of the Sotd?
15:12:53 janina__: Just chair level would be fine.
15:13:09 Judy: Or not even that.
15:13:26 paulc: the body of the document has not changed since the CfC - is that correct?
15:13:40 janina__: I haven't seen the final so I don't know. I would hope not.
15:13:57 Judy: It is a fine question though. Seems like something we should check.
15:14:23 paulc: Delegating to the task force coordinators and the editors to clean up the Sotd etc. is a fine approach.
15:14:46 Judy: We would want to coordinate anyway so we can make an announcement.
15:15:45 ... publication date needs to get looped through too
15:16:34 paulc: there are two formal objections on this document. the objections are about it being on rec track.
15:16:52 ... so I have an action to go back to them once it is a note to ask them to remove their formal objection.
15:17:19 http://rawgit.com/w3c/alt-techniques/master/index.html
15:17:35 http://rawgit.com/w3c/alt-techniques/master/index.html#references
15:18:15 paulc: I just scanned through the document and there is a broken reference.
15:19:30 zakim, next item
15:19:30 agendum 5. "Date-UI Overview" taken up [from janina__]
15:19:32 Robin Berjon; et al. HTML 5.1 11 December 2008. W3C Recommendation. needs to fixed
15:20:13 janina__: Prepared with a report.
15:20:27 calendaring / date picking are frequently an a11y nightmare
15:20:39 Judy_clone has joined #html-a11y
15:21:06 looking at the chain... all that gets to the communicated back to the server is a simple string that identifies the date.
15:21:24 ... sometimes there is additional logic that customizes the calendar.
15:21:48 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #html-a11y
15:21:54 ... most user agents have accessible built in date pickers
15:22:23 ... customization / business logic is required to, for example, allow limiting of the range of selectable dates.
15:22:34 ... calendar representations are something that vary via locale.
15:22:58 ... what's the first day of the week? non-gregorian calendars
15:23:54 +David_MacDonald
15:24:29 I don't have a full proposal. But I wonder if there is a way to get the user agent implementors to offer a choice of which widget should be presented when a date input is requested?
15:24:38 ... this is sort of a classic approach to A11Y
15:25:05 Q+
15:25:23 David has joined #html-a11y
15:25:50 ack JF
15:26:12 JF: This is a user agent problem. A browser plugin? Might be a solution, but it is really just another "roll your own"
15:26:38 ... abstracting it down might reduce the number, but the plugin will still not be a strong solution.
15:27:00 q?
15:27:02 ... Boils down to authoring guidance. It would be nice if the widgets in the browsers had more hooks for styling and control.
15:27:06 ... user agent problem.
15:27:48 Judy: Seems like an interesting issue, but more in agreement with John.
15:28:13 ... back in the gallery of accessible components work there was thinking about this.
15:28:23 ... not catching the HTML5 connection at this point.
15:28:39 janina__: I don't see a connection with the spec yet. But there is clearly a problem in this space.
15:28:46 q+ to agree with JF and point out that there may be progress on this
15:29:09 Q+
15:29:10 Judy: Maybe we should hand this off to WAI coordination then.
15:29:16 ack marks
15:29:16 MarkS, you wanted to agree with JF and point out that there may be progress on this
15:29:44 MarkS: Agree with John. Encourage authors to use standard widgets. The complaint I hear most is that they cannot style them.
15:30:17 ... I hear now that there is an option in Chrome to style against the shadow dom. If that becomes standard it will work across browsers.
15:30:43 janina__: let's not forget about the business logic. The reason people do their own is to restrict date ranges.
15:30:50 ack JF
15:32:36 janina__: one good available option that would help would be a right click option to just type in a date. If you are comfortable with that interface, it is a very a11y way to do it.
15:32:46 Judy: what about mobile - would it work there?
15:33:45 MarkS: What about encouraging html5 to use patterns to restrict input values.
15:34:06 David: What about using CSS to restrict input values?
15:35:14 ShaneM: I kind of like Mark's suggestion - is there a way to do it?
15:36:00 s/input values/input values on date-time widgets
15:36:34 zakim, next item
15:36:34 agendum 6. "HTML 5.1 Next Steps" taken up [from janina__]
15:37:26 JF: We were supposed to talk about access keys today. We are not prepared.
15:38:43 no obvious benefits to accesskey right now. any new requirements would be on the browser, not on HTML itself.
15:38:52 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml-access-20090423/
15:39:19 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-access/
15:39:20 ... there was work on this.
15:39:45 ... but access + key = accesskey. unless the user can override the keybinding it doesn't solve the problem.
15:39:59 ... opera had a nice way to deal with it back in the day.
15:40:17 q?
15:40:59 richardschwerdtfeger: Why not allow the user agent to do it in a device independent way?
15:41:29 ... look at the access module. Think about it as if you were going to make it device independent. Could it define actions that indicate intent?
15:41:44 zakim, who is here
15:41:44 ShaneM, you need to end that query with '?'
15:41:47 zakim, who is here?
15:41:47 On the phone I see Mark_Sadecki, Janina, ShaneM, Adrian_Roselli, [Microsoft], Judy, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, JF, Liam, David_MacDonald
15:41:50 [Microsoft] has Paul_Cotton
15:41:50 On IRC I see David, richardschwerdtfeger, JF, aardrian, paulc, RRSAgent, ShaneM, MarkS, IanPouncey, liam, janina__, Zakim, sivoais, hober, cabanier, trackbot
15:42:18 q+
15:42:23 David: discoverability remains a problem. People need to be able to learn what key bindings / actions are avialable and what they do
15:42:32 q?
15:42:32 ack richardschwerdtfeger
15:42:41 s/David:/JF:/G
15:42:53 richardschwerdtfeger: what you do is register them and allow the user to pull up list
15:43:06 q+ to talk about the access module
15:43:36 David: and those are user agent functions. not code functions. There could be some metadata that advises the user agent.
15:43:53 richardschwerdtfeger: how does the author specify a mnemonic and a mapping?
15:44:30 David: I have always said there is a need for this. But that the implementations are bad. And there are issues with internationalization issues too.
15:44:55 richardschwerdtfeger: the browser knows what the language of the user is. It could do the transformation to different mappings.
15:45:10 ... we do this for forms now.
15:45:32 janina__: Let's not forget that this would be useful in SVG. Would an extension spec be useful?
15:45:35 +1 to extension spec
15:45:37 richardschwerdtfeger: it could be an extension spec.
15:46:24 scribe: MarkS
15:47:16 SM: I appreciate the concern. The spec I linked to was never finished, but the idea was that it was possible, as an author to provide the mapping, an that users can override that.
15:47:30 ...device independence adds additional complexities...
15:47:40 JS: perhaps this is an IndieUI thing
15:48:01 SM: these are all discussions that can be had developing an extension spec
15:48:12 s/David:/JF:/G
15:48:27 JF: we need to get browser vendors on board.
15:48:56 ...had this available for a really long time, but poorly implemented to date.
15:49:20 RS: and poorly designed
15:50:07 JB: is this an extension spec or an HTML5.1 feature
15:50:31 -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:50:53 JF notes taht accesskey is already part of HTML5: http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-20110525/editing.html#the-accesskey-attribute
15:50:56 DM: does anyone recognize extension specs?
15:51:09 JB: they are equal citizens in the open web platform
15:51:29 -Judy
15:51:45 JS: important for us to look at extension specs from other groups as well.
15:51:48 +Judy
15:51:57 Examples of extensions specs: EME, MSE, longdesc, (now folded in), srcset (now folded in), Ruby (now folded in), etc.
15:52:01 Q+
15:52:15 ...ack sh
15:52:18 ack sh
15:52:18 ShaneM, you wanted to talk about the access module
15:52:20 Lots of other examples
15:52:24 s/...ack sh/
15:53:03 PC: several extension specs have been folded in too. There are a lot of other WGs that are doing them as well.
15:53:14 ...web performance for instance, are doing lots of extension specs
15:53:24 q?
15:54:05 ...there is no difference in full spec or extension spec for getting browsers to implement
15:54:11 ack jf
15:54:21
15:54:36 JF: accesskey is already in HTML5. one of the proposed way of doing keybinding is a space separated list of values
15:54:44 ...as an attempt to avoid conflicts.
15:54:58 ...an extension spec will either build on this or be in conflict with this
15:55:03 JS: or to replace as well
15:55:40 ...sounds like there is interest in this.
15:56:16 I will champion this extension if there is interest.
15:56:20 ...we are currently going through a list of topics to decide what we want to focus our future work on
15:56:34 I am happy to be involved in a sub-team on this topic
15:57:17 JF: because its an existing attribute, it might lend weight to prioritization.
15:58:18 zakim, mute me
15:58:18 Mark_Sadecki should now be muted
15:58:44 MS: glad to see this prioritization process is working.
15:58:44 zakim, unmute me
15:58:44 Mark_Sadecki should no longer be muted
15:59:32 -ShaneM
15:59:33 -JF
15:59:36 -Judy
15:59:45 -Liam
15:59:46 -Mark_Sadecki
15:59:47 -David_MacDonald
15:59:47 -Adrian_Roselli
15:59:49 -Janina
16:00:31 zakim, who is on the phone?
16:00:31 On the phone I see [Microsoft]
16:00:32