13:40:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webmob
13:40:08 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/07/16-webmob-irc
13:40:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs 306
13:40:10 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webmob
13:40:12 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WEBMOB
13:40:12 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see MWI_WBMB()10:00AM scheduled to start in 20 minutes
13:40:13 <trackbot> Meeting: Web and Mobile Interest Group Teleconference
13:40:13 <trackbot> Date: 16 July 2014
13:53:06 <abarsto> abarsto has joined #webmob
13:59:19 <Zakim> MWI_WBMB()10:00AM has now started
13:59:26 <Zakim> + +1.905.873.aaaa
13:59:27 <Zakim> + +1.717.553.aabb
13:59:33 <kawada> kawada has joined #webmob
14:00:10 <wuwei> wuwei has joined #webmob
14:00:11 <dom> Zakim, code?
14:00:11 <Zakim> the conference code is 932662 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), dom
14:00:25 <mbaker> mbaker has joined #webmob
14:00:29 <Zakim> +??P12
14:00:30 <dom> Zakim, ??P12 is me
14:00:30 <Zakim> +dom; got it
14:00:33 <dka> dka has joined #webmob
14:00:56 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:01:07 <Zakim> + +1.857.300.aacc
14:01:17 <ArtB> zakim, aacc is ArtB
14:01:17 <Zakim> +ArtB; got it
14:01:24 <dom> Zakim, who's on the call?
14:01:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.905.873.aaaa, +1.717.553.aabb, dom, [IPcaller], ArtB
14:01:34 <ianmaffett> zakim, aabb is ianmaffett
14:01:34 <Zakim> +ianmaffett; got it
14:01:36 <Zakim> +??P4
14:01:38 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
14:01:40 <mbaker> zakim, aaaa is me
14:01:40 <Zakim> +mbaker; got it
14:01:41 <dom> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-mobile/2014Jul/0026.html
14:01:49 <dom> Chair: Natasha
14:01:54 <dom> Zakim, [IPcaller.a] is tobie
14:01:54 <Zakim> +tobie; got it
14:01:55 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
14:01:59 <kawada> zakim, ??P4 is me
14:01:59 <Zakim> +kawada; got it
14:02:13 <dom> Zakim, who's on the call?
14:02:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see mbaker, ianmaffett, dom, [IPcaller], ArtB, kawada, tobie, [IPcaller.a]
14:02:52 <Zakim> + +1.908.559.aadd
14:03:15 <bogdanovichiy> bogdanovichiy has joined #webmob
14:03:23 <marcos_home> Scribe: Marcos
14:03:33 <Zakim> + +44.773.051.aaee
14:03:40 <dom> Zakim, aadd is dansun
14:03:40 <Zakim> +dansun; got it
14:03:41 <Zakim> +EricP
14:03:42 <dom> Zakim, aaee is dka
14:03:42 <Zakim> +dka; got it
14:03:43 <marcos_home> scribenick: marcos_home
14:03:46 <DanS> DanS has joined #webmob
14:03:52 <dka> zakim, aaee is me
14:03:52 <Zakim> sorry, dka, I do not recognize a party named 'aaee'
14:04:11 <Zakim> +??P41
14:04:12 <dom> Zakim, who's on the call?
14:04:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see mbaker, ianmaffett, dom, [IPcaller], ArtB, kawada, tobie, [IPcaller.a], dansun, dka, EricP, ??P41
14:04:20 <dom> Zakim, ??P41 is Ilya
14:04:20 <Zakim> +Ilya; got it
14:04:27 <dom> Zakim, mute ilya
14:04:27 <Zakim> Ilya should now be muted
14:05:15 <bogdanovichiy> ok thanks
14:05:17 <wwu> wwu has joined #webmob
14:05:34 <schuki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-mobile/2014Jul/0026.html
14:05:38 <marcos_home> TOPIC: OMA liaison statement
14:06:35 <ArtB> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-mobile/2014Jul/0016.html head of OMA liaison thread
14:07:13 <marcos_home> schuki: can you give us a bit of background about the OMA and the liaison
14:07:14 <marcos_home> ?
14:08:42 <marcos_home> dom: sure. We have an relationship with the OMA where they sometimes send us APIs and various documents to review. They've been creating guidelines for API creation - and were informing us of their work to see if there was any chance for collaboration + for review.
14:09:04 <schuki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-mobile/2014Jul/thread.html
14:09:13 <mbaker> 15 years more like :)
14:09:56 <marcos_home> schuki: there was some feedback, but Mark Baker raised some concerns about the APIs being "RESTful"
14:11:24 <schuki> webrtc: http://technical.openmobilealliance.org/Technical/technical-information/release-program/current-releases/rest_netapi_webrtcsignaling_v1_0
14:12:29 <dom> -> http://technical.openmobilealliance.org/Technical/technical-information/oma-api-program/protocol-bindings OMA API Inventory (grouped by protocol binding)
14:12:30 <marcos_home> mbaker: I used to collaborate with the OMA when they were WAP helping them understand the web. I looked at the work that they were doing and at a random set of their APIs. They have structured the APIs in such a way that you replace bits of URIs. My concern is that the approach is not particularly RESTful.
14:12:35 <dka> 1. Is there something we can suggest back to them?
14:12:40 <schuki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-mobile/2014Jul/0023.html
14:13:07 <dka> 2. (with respect) is it not true that the definition of REST APIs has become somewhat fuzzy?
14:13:16 <marcos_home> schuki: so, then Brian responded ^^^ saying what they were trying to achieve.
14:14:07 <mbaker> hey!
14:14:14 <marcos_home> dka: 1. Is there something we can suggest back to them?
14:15:06 <ArtB> +1 to DKA re providing some constructive details to OMA
14:15:28 <ArtB> I wonder if Mark would be willing to take such an action, or perhaps the TAG could reply?
14:16:00 <mbaker> i'd be happy to art
14:16:31 <ArtB> awesome mbaker!
14:16:38 <marcos_home> dka: my interest is from an architectural standpoint (being from the TAG). What can we suggest to them in constructive manner in regards to REST? Is that not a kind of narrow def. of REST?
14:17:06 <mbaker> q+
14:17:26 <schuki> ack mbaker
14:17:35 <marcos_home> dka: I do wonder if the general use of the word REST has expanded in the last few years - with regards to URL structures, etc? That's my sense.
14:17:45 <dom> q+ to avoid the architectural debate and instead understand how different architectural decisions would help OMA / the Web on mobile networks
14:19:14 <marcos_home> mbaker: sure, it the term has expanded a bit. Yes, there has been some drift with regards to what REST is in the wider community - but the REST community is trying to help by bringing it back to Roy's dissertation. This does mean that everything needs to be done with REST - but REST as per Roy's dissertation has a fairly strict meaning.
14:19:15 <Zakim> -Ilya
14:19:57 <ArtB> in the broader context of the IoT/WoT, it seems like it would be important for OMA to make sure it's APIs are consistent with the `rest of the Web`. As such, guidelines and advice from W3C seems appropritate
14:19:59 <schuki> ack dom
14:19:59 <Zakim> dom, you wanted to avoid the architectural debate and instead understand how different architectural decisions would help OMA / the Web on mobile networks
14:20:07 <marcos_home> dka: that sounds like a good way forward. I would like to involve the TAG. We have a TAG F2F coming up next week so we can add it to the agenda.
14:20:07 <Zakim> +??P0
14:20:19 <mbaker> wfm. the TAG hasn't yet decided the role of REST in Web architecture
14:20:58 <ArtB> s/it's APIs/it's Service and Enabler APIs/
14:21:31 <dom> dom: we should note the terminology question
14:21:35 <dom> ... but we shouldn't stop to it
14:21:50 <dom> ... we should see if proper RESTful design would help OMA achieve its goals with its APIS
14:21:57 <dka> To dom’s point - this should be about the Web, and if it is then it means the APIs being described should be available on the Web, not just in closed networks…
14:22:04 <ArtB> I agree with Dom, that guidance, recommendations and such here will benefit other communities besides OMA
14:22:05 <dom> ... and probably only do so if we feel that these APIs are important to the Web on mobil
14:22:10 <dka> that could be a feedback point from webmob...
14:22:17 <marcos_home> dka: I think Dan's suggestion is good. It might be good to wait to for the TAG to have their F2F. We should provide feedback after that.
14:22:32 <marcos_home> s/dka/schuki
14:22:41 <mbaker> +1 to dom, art
14:23:25 <marcos_home> dom: what we requesting feedback on is how to create RESTful APIs for the Web
14:24:00 <marcos_home> dom: I think there were several good points raised - but it would be good if we could send specific feedback to them
14:24:22 <marcos_home> schuki: I can put something together
14:24:37 <mbaker> lol
14:24:45 <dka> Would someone be willing to join the TAG meeting by phone next week to talk about this? Marcos?
14:25:05 <marcos_home> I'm on vacation next week, dka
14:25:12 <dom> ACTION: Natasha to write up summary of OMA discussions
14:25:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-103 - Write up summary of oma discussions [on Natasha Rooney - due 2014-07-23].
14:26:18 <marcos_home> schuki: I might be able to join
14:26:33 <dom> ACTION: DKA to bring RESTful APIs discussion to TAG agenda
14:26:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-104 - Bring restful apis discussion to tag agenda [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2014-07-23].
14:26:53 <dom> ACTION: baker to provide more detailed analysis of OMA APIs and RESTful design
14:26:53 <trackbot> Error finding 'baker'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Mobile/IG/track/users>.
14:26:59 <marcos_home> schuki: thanks to Mark for joining!
14:27:00 <Zakim> -mbaker
14:27:10 <mbaker> good to hear so many familiar voices again :)
14:27:14 <schuki> topic: wake lock use cases
14:27:14 <marcos_home> TOPIC: Wake lock use cases
14:27:50 <schuki> marcos_home: we started work about a month ago
14:27:59 <schuki> ... last few weeks it's getting towards being doing
14:28:00 <schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/wake-lock-use-cases
14:28:10 <marcos_home> repo^^
14:28:13 <marcos_home> http://w3c-webmob.github.io/wake-lock-use-cases/
14:28:14 <schuki> marcos_home: that's the repo
14:28:24 <schuki> marcos_home: and the document
14:28:39 <schuki> marcos_home: i took the stuff dom started on - looking at apis on other platforms
14:28:54 <schuki> ... we gathered a set of apps which exemplified this behaviour
14:29:19 <schuki> ... an interesting one that needed this was google cardboard - so they're hacking around this with video elements to get this
14:29:49 <schuki> marcos_home: lots of contributors including google
14:29:54 <schuki> ... need a few more use cases
14:30:40 <dom> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2014Jul/0101.html [whatwg] Proposal: Wake Lock API
14:30:44 <schuki> marcos_home: we're now ready to make an api out of this
14:30:50 <schuki> q?
14:32:09 <schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/web-api-gap
14:32:58 <dom> q+
14:33:21 <schuki> ack dom
14:33:55 <marcos_home> https://github.com/w3c/screen-wake/pull/9
14:34:01 <schuki> marcos_home: we have been capturing the progress of the discussions re next steps
14:34:07 <dom> dom: how do you envision the next steps?
14:34:36 <schuki> marcos_home: ilya proposed an api, i changed it, so we'll keep revise it based on these discussions
14:35:13 <Zakim> -??P0
14:35:19 <schuki> ... moz have an implementation, slightly different in ffos
14:35:41 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:35:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/16-webmob-minutes.html ArtB
14:35:59 <bogdanovichiy> sorry, connection problems, I’ll stay on irc
14:36:21 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes Public
14:36:21 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes Public', ArtB.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:36:28 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
14:36:39 <schuki> ... not sure how long it will take, depends a little on dap
14:36:44 <schuki> q?
14:36:46 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
14:38:19 <marcos_home> marcos_home: we can publish it when DOM and I are back from vacation.
14:38:27 <dom> s/DOM/Dom/
14:38:39 <marcos_home> DAMMIT!!!!
14:38:45 <dom> q+ to SysApps vs DAP
14:39:09 <schuki> q?
14:39:14 <schuki> ack dom
14:39:14 <Zakim> dom, you wanted to SysApps vs DAP
14:40:23 <dom> Dom: Sysapps has been created to host APIs that can't fit in the current Web security model; the Wake Lock APi seems to be a good fit for the current security model, hence DAP
14:41:24 <schuki> q?
14:41:33 <marcos_home> TOPIC: Service Workers
14:41:39 <schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/ServiceWorkersDemos
14:42:53 <marcos_home> schuki: we have the SW demos repo ^^^ - which has some apps we would like to build. So, even though the implementations are still not quite there, it's possible to get started on those.
14:43:26 <marcos_home> schuki: basically, if someone has build something they would like to share - please send it to us
14:44:20 <schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/serviceworker.org
14:44:39 <dka> Of note to the group: http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/promoting-modern-websites-for-modern.html - “Starting today, we will indicate to searchers when our algorithms detect pages that may not work on their devices.”
14:44:58 <marcos_home> schuki: with the interest in SWs, there has been a lot of info on the Web. So we've started a repo to bring everything into one place.
14:45:23 <tobie> Website is here: http://www.serviceworker.org/
14:45:37 <tobie> This is not ready for public consumption atm.
14:45:46 <marcos_home> schuki: thanks to Tobie for getting this started. The folks from FT labs also started a similar service (serviceworker.io)
14:46:10 <marcos_home> schuki: right now, we are trying to work out how to serve everything over HTTPs, etc.
14:47:12 <marcos_home> schuki: currently, looking for hints + tips about debugging SWs
14:47:45 <marcos_home> tobie: I talked with the FT labs together and we are probably going to merge the .org and the .io sites.
14:47:45 <dka> +1
14:47:50 <marcos_home> heh
14:48:26 <marcos_home> schuki: do you have any update from the Moz side?
14:48:44 <marcos_home> tobie: waiting for the cache API to stabilize, I think
14:49:10 <marcos_home> tobie: mozilla and google have the whole SW side of things working... but without the cache
14:49:12 <dka> q+ noticed some discussions on twitter on implementing appcache (with fixes) with ServiceWorker.
14:49:50 <schuki> q?
14:50:05 <marcos_home> tobie: if you have issues, please let us know on GitHub
14:50:24 <marcos_home> dka: there was some discussions on twitter on implementing appcache (with fixes) with ServiceWorker.
14:52:02 <marcos_home> dka: There was the opinion that AppCache is pretty good... and could be tweaked to be fit for purpose. And if AppCache could be implemented with SWs. It seems to me like an easy win if AppCache could be implemented and fixed through SWs.
14:52:47 <dka> (and as usual all this discussion is just somewhere on twitter rather than anywhere that can be easilly found…)
14:53:04 <marcos_home> tobie: it's a reasonable request. The problem with appcache is that there is a lot of magic going on under the hood. It would be fine for simple examples - but then the question remains "what is the point?"
14:53:19 <marcos_home> +q
14:57:56 <marcos_home> tobie: would be good to break up the API into it's component parts when explaining it. E.g., the cache, how fetch works, etc. Having good docs that breaks up the different components, etc. should make this API more palatable.
14:58:46 <marcos_home> tobie: I don't think people are going create AppCache-like declarative solutions as they are not very compelling. There are more interesting things that can be made with the API
14:59:25 <marcos_home> TOPIC: AOB
14:59:41 <schuki> http://www.w3.org/2014/07/permissions/
15:00:16 <dom> https://github.com/dontcallmedom/web-permissions-req/
15:00:26 <schuki> http://www.w3.org/2014/05/wp-trust-permissions/
15:00:38 <dom> -> http://www.w3.org/mid/53C64373.60904@w3.org Dave introducing his paper to SysApps
15:01:02 <marcos_home> schuki: we had a breakout call about permissions. Dave Raggett told us about the workshop that is happening in Sep. Dom gave us and overview of work he had been doing. Dave also pointed us to the paper on the topic he had been working on.
15:01:29 <schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/identity/blob/master/README.md
15:01:50 <Zakim> -dansun
15:02:05 <schuki> http://www.w3.org/2012/webcrypto/webcrypto-next-workshop/Overview.html
15:02:48 <marcos_home> schuki: Identity - we are still trying to gather use cases and reqs around this topic. The Web Crypto group is interested in this topic and have asked us to provide some.
15:03:03 <marcos_home> schuki: ... some use cases and requirements.
15:03:18 <Zakim> -ArtB
15:03:32 <dom> q+ to mention bluetooth work
15:03:45 <marcos_home> schuki: if you have any ideas for additional breakout calls. Please let us know.
15:03:49 <schuki> ack dom
15:03:51 <dom> https://github.com/dontcallmedom/web-bluetooth
15:03:51 <Zakim> dom, you wanted to mention bluetooth work
15:03:58 <Zakim> -ianmaffett
15:04:47 <marcos_home> dom: I've been looking at the link between bluetooth and web apps. Hopefully I'll do a bit more research on it in Aug. Looking at how the web platform could benefit from accessing BlueTooth.
15:05:35 <marcos_home> schuki: our next call will be in Aug.
15:05:52 <Zakim> -tobie
15:05:52 <Zakim> -dom
15:05:54 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
15:05:55 <Zakim> -wuwei
15:05:55 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:05:57 <Zakim> -dka
15:06:04 <schuki> thanks all!
15:06:08 <Zakim> -kawada
15:06:10 <Zakim> MWI_WBMB()10:00AM has ended
15:06:10 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.905.873.aaaa, +1.717.553.aabb, dom, [IPcaller], +1.857.300.aacc, ArtB, ianmaffett, mbaker, tobie, kawada, +1.908.559.aadd, +44.773.051.aaee, dansun, dka, Ilya,
15:06:10 <Zakim> ... wuwei
15:06:19 <marcos_home> trackbot, make minutes public
15:06:19 <trackbot> Sorry, marcos_home, I don't understand 'trackbot, make minutes public'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
15:06:34 <schuki> schuki has changed the topic to: Next webmob call August 13th, 2pm UTC. Happy vacation everyone!
15:06:43 <marcos_home> trackbot, end meeting
15:06:43 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:06:43 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
15:06:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:06:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/16-webmob-minutes.html trackbot
15:06:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:06:52 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/16-webmob-actions.rdf :
15:06:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Natasha to write up summary of OMA discussions [1]
15:06:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/16-webmob-irc#T14-25-12
15:06:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: DKA to bring RESTful APIs discussion to TAG agenda [2]
15:06:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/16-webmob-irc#T14-26-33
15:06:52 <RRSAgent> ACTION: baker to provide more detailed analysis of OMA APIs and RESTful design [3]
15:06:52 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/16-webmob-irc#T14-26-53
15:07:00 <marcos_home> Zakim, this was webmob
15:07:00 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this was webmob', marcos_home