13:55:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y-media
13:55:49 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/07/14-html-a11y-media-irc
13:55:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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13:55:53 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
13:55:53 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_HTML AT()10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
13:55:54 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
13:55:54 <trackbot> Date: 14 July 2014
13:57:00 <wuwei> wuwei has joined #html-a11y-media
13:57:22 <MarkS> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Media Sub-Group
13:57:22 <MarkS> Chair: Mark Sadecki
13:57:22 <MarkS> agenda+ Identify Scribe
13:57:22 <MarkS> agenda+ TTML Issue 309 Text equivalent for caption images
13:57:23 <MarkS> agenda+ Edits to Media Accessibility User Requirements
13:57:24 <MarkS> agenda+ Media Accessibility User Requirements Comment Responses
13:57:27 <MarkS> agenda+ Publishing a Heartbeat Draft of MAUR
13:57:40 <Zakim> WAI_HTML AT()10:00AM has now started
13:57:47 <Zakim> +??P1
13:57:58 <janina_> zakim, ??P1 is me
13:57:58 <Zakim> +janina_; got it
13:58:07 <Zakim> +Mark_Sadecki
14:00:48 <Zakim> +EricP
14:00:48 <pal> pal has joined #html-a11y-media
14:02:02 <Zakim> +pal
14:02:08 <nigel> nigel has joined #html-a11y-media
14:02:37 <MarkS> zakim, take up next item
14:02:37 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Identify Scribe" taken up [from MarkS]
14:02:39 <Zakim> +McCarron
14:02:49 <Zakim> + +44.192.341.aaaa
14:02:52 <nigel> zakim, aaaa is me
14:02:52 <Zakim> +nigel; got it
14:03:29 <Zakim> +John_Foliot
14:04:03 <janina_> scribe: janina
14:04:08 <MarkS> zakim, take up next item
14:04:08 <Zakim> agendum 2. "TTML Issue 309 Text equivalent for caption images" taken up [from MarkS]
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14:04:46 <MarkS> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/309
14:04:55 <janina_> ms: Our TTML guests are here to get our opinion on resolving this issue
14:05:09 <kaz> zakim, call kazuyuki-617
14:05:09 <Zakim> ok, kaz; the call is being made
14:05:10 <Zakim> +Kazuyuki
14:05:38 <janina_> n: variant 1: allows text to be specified purely as text
14:05:43 <janina_> n: variant 2: refs to images
14:06:02 <janina_> n: In reviewing this, though it would fail wcag
14:06:23 <janina_> n: issue is alternative text
14:07:02 <janina_> n: another solution under discussion is to allow some kind of alt against each image
14:07:04 <MarkS> q+ to ask for use case for the image profile
14:07:19 <janina_> p: to continue the background ...
14:07:39 <janina_> p: ttml includes spec to deliver subtitle and captions, world wide
14:07:50 <janina_> p: includes industry participation, movies, tv
14:08:08 <janina_> p: The above "variants" are subprofiles of the above
14:08:09 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #html-a11y-media
14:08:19 <janina_> p: there are reasons why images are necessary sometimes
14:08:32 <MarkS> q-
14:08:35 <janina_> p: sometimes artistic reasons, but also lack of gliphs in some langs
14:08:39 <JF> Q+
14:08:57 <MarkS> ack jf
14:09:23 <janina_> jf: These are images loaded as against timeline?
14:09:25 <janina_> p: yes
14:09:39 <ShaneM> zakim, who is here?
14:09:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see janina_, Mark_Sadecki, wuwei, pal, McCarron, nigel, John_Foliot, Kazuyuki
14:09:40 <janina_> p: e.g. embeddeed in mp4 multiplex
14:09:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see ShaneM, JF, kaz, nigel, pal, wuwei, Zakim, RRSAgent, MarkS, janina_, trackbot
14:09:47 <ShaneM> zakim, I am McCarron
14:09:47 <Zakim> ok, ShaneM, I now associate you with McCarron
14:09:50 <janina_> jf: mostly for foreign lang?
14:10:38 <janina_> P: in practice charsets that are not in unicode yet, but also some artistic reasons, iconography, ringing telephone,
14:10:56 <JF> ack JF
14:11:49 <JF> zakim: John_Foliot is JF
14:12:05 <MarkS> JS: we are already at some level in an edge case.  Looking to provide alt seems like its more than necessary.  the point is to cover everyones needs, not necessarily all in the same technology.  if we have a transcript, we probably don't need alt for images in captions.
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14:12:34 <nigel> q+ to ask if we need to permit all needs to be covered in a single document or if it is okay to permit content providers to meet some needs by providing an alternate document
14:12:34 <MarkS> ...its already possible to cover all the needs we are talking about here, just using different tech.
14:13:13 <MarkS> JF: much of this could be solved using metadata, like that specified on schema.org
14:13:14 <nigel> q+ to comment that another use case is text to speech of translated subtitles for visually impaired people
14:13:40 <MarkS> ...if you have  document with time-stamping that references images, as long as you have the same content available in another format, we should be OK
14:13:56 <janina_> jf: agreeing to analysis based on supporting users, using metadata to enumerate available alternatives
14:13:57 <MarkS> P: just like with languages
14:14:02 <janina_> p: as with lang
14:14:03 <janina_> jf: yes
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14:14:25 <MarkS> ack nigel
14:14:25 <Zakim> nigel, you wanted to ask if we need to permit all needs to be covered in a single document or if it is okay to permit content providers to meet some needs by providing an alternate
14:14:28 <Zakim> ... document and to comment that another use case is text to speech of translated subtitles for visually impaired people
14:14:31 <kaz_> kaz_ has joined #html-a11y-media
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14:14:55 <janina_> n: wonders agout use case where captions are used for tts
14:16:03 <JF> more info about Schema.org+Accessibility: http://www.a11ymetadata.org/the-specification/
14:16:55 <janina_> n: more fundamental q, from spec perspective, is it necessary to provide capibility for nonimage representation of text as opposed to multiple docs in a wider system
14:17:37 <janina_> n: restating .. we have no option for including text representation for images, as things stand
14:17:50 <janina_> n: at the moment no way to do that
14:17:50 <pal> q+
14:18:02 <janina_> n: current alternative is an entirely other document
14:18:35 <janina_> jf: noting there are also reg issues in some countries
14:18:55 <pal> q-
14:19:05 <janina_> jf: reality is that as long as both are provided, there's no req that it's all in one doc
14:20:10 <janina_> jf: don't say a must, or even a should here ... if tech for achieving the alt is worked out, still a may
14:20:57 <pal> q+
14:21:34 <pal> q-
14:21:45 <MarkS> JS: we would like to see a programmatic association.
14:22:02 <pal> q+
14:22:03 <MarkS> JF: we should think about this as just another language file
14:22:07 <janina_> jf: the lang analogy is the correct way to thing about this
14:22:44 <MarkS> ack pal
14:23:05 <janina_> p: notes there are practices in industry on this
14:23:29 <janina_> jf: problem is more authoring and best practices
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14:23:57 <MarkS> JS: I don't think regulators will be worried about how its done, just that its done.
14:23:58 <janina_> jf: also mindful of reg reqs
14:24:03 <nigel> q+
14:24:10 <janina_> js: but regulators won't care how the coverage is achieved, just that it is
14:24:19 <MarkS> ack nigel
14:24:23 <janina_> n: not convinced that metadata does exist
14:25:16 <janina_> n: hearing that it isn't a req that the spec provide alt for the caption images, that alternative doc is ok
14:26:33 <janina_> n: think our q is answered ...
14:26:40 <janina_> n: not sure the mechanics exist in mse
14:26:42 <janina_> p: they do
14:26:45 <janina_> n: fantastic
14:27:21 <janina_> jf: would be good to have a best practices doc showing how to do these things
14:27:29 <janina_> n: thinking about the lang analogy ...
14:27:57 <janina_> n: if it's visual only because gliphs are missing, then a text equiv isn't exactly an equiv
14:29:04 <janina_> p: you provide descriptive text ... "ringing telephone"
14:29:21 <janina_> jf: heard more descriptive gliphs, not charset gliphs
14:29:24 <janina_> p: there's both
14:30:08 <janina_> n: xml lang not sufficient ...
14:30:18 <janina_> p: but there are ways, in html5, for instance
14:32:01 <janina_> zakim, next item
14:32:01 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Edits to Media Accessibility User Requirements" taken up [from MarkS]
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14:32:29 <janina_> ms: we believe we're now caught up
14:32:34 <Zakim> -nigel
14:32:40 <MarkS> https://github.com/w3c/pfwg/commits/master
14:32:51 <MarkS> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/MAUR_Comment_Processing#DRAFT_Comment_Responses
14:33:44 <janina_> sm: update on 390 and 391 ...-- actually only 390
14:34:19 <MarkS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2011OctDec/0019.html
14:34:33 <janina_> sm: basically, content is too complicated, doc written for people with advanced degrees
14:34:52 <janina_> sm: our target doc is not ordinary end users
14:35:55 <Zakim> -pal
14:35:58 <JF> Q+
14:36:39 <JF> zakim, John_Foliot is JF
14:36:39 <Zakim> +JF; got it
14:36:39 <MarkS> JS: I think we made it clear to EO that we want clear, specific change requests
14:37:07 <MarkS> ...we have asked for feedback from them on Section 2, describing people, not the technology
14:37:39 <MarkS> ...known all along that is a sensitive area of the document and we want to get the language right there.
14:38:00 <MarkS> ...they will look at this heartbeat to address that
14:38:28 <MarkS> ...I found a couple of edits, like ref to UA instead of User Agent
14:39:03 <MarkS> ...some of the technical engineering language might be considered as such, but its appropriate for the audience
14:39:06 <MarkS> ack jf
14:39:30 <janina_> jf: Feel shar's comments are ok, but this wasn't expected to be a "good read," it's a technical document
14:39:54 <janina_> jf: if eo feels the need for a more readable document, this is not that document
14:41:55 <MarkS> JS: they have done some good work on such writing in the past.  let them do that
14:42:49 <janina_> [general greement on the response -- this is not the marketing/explanatory end user doc, it's a tech doc]
14:43:14 <janina_> ms: I worked on the low vis comments, and think I've tweked what is reasonable to tweak
14:43:31 <janina_> ms: I tried to avoid repetition
14:43:32 <MarkS> https://w3c.github.io/pfwg/media-accessibility-reqs/#transcripts
14:46:56 <ShaneM> q+ to ask for a clarification on t-3
14:49:40 <JF> Q+
14:49:51 <MarkS> ack shane
14:49:55 <MarkS> ack mccarron
14:49:55 <Zakim> McCarron, you wanted to ask for a clarification on t-3
14:50:50 <janina_> sm: q in t-3 ... comma after letter, or not?
14:50:56 <janina_> ms: struggled over that!
14:51:48 <MarkS> ack JF
14:53:08 <janina_> action: jf to revisit whether to require transcripts be html5
14:53:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-276 - Revisit whether to require transcripts be html5 [on John Foliot - due 2014-07-21].
14:53:47 <MarkS> JS: some would like to sign off on this heartbeat
14:54:09 <MarkS> ...there is some sense that because it is a PF publication, it should be approved by PF.
14:54:19 <MarkS> ...happy to do that with a CC to the HTML TF list
14:54:30 <MarkS> ...that would expire end of day on wednesday
14:54:40 <MarkS> ...Mark could publish on Thursday
14:56:03 <janina_> [group agreement for 48-hour consensus in pf, with cc to tf]
14:56:14 <janina_> agreement to publish thursday, pending the pf CfC
14:56:19 <janina_> zakim, next item
14:56:19 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Media Accessibility User Requirements Comment Responses" taken up [from MarkS]
14:56:26 <janina_> ms: ah, we're done!
14:56:31 <MarkS> https://w3c.github.io/pfwg/media-accessibility-reqs/
14:59:01 <kaz_> q+ to ask janina_ and MarkS if it's OK to talk about TV related topics a bit at the end of this call
14:59:08 <Zakim> -JF
14:59:44 <MarkS> ack kaz
14:59:44 <Zakim> kaz_, you wanted to ask janina_ and MarkS if it's OK to talk about TV related topics a bit at the end of this call
15:00:13 <kaz_> -> http://www.w3.org/2014/07/09-webtv-minutes.html#item02 tv minutes
15:01:02 <MarkS> KAZ: TV Group is reviewing regenerated use cases, we started with non-accessibility UCs.  Web and TV IG is interested in a F2F at TPAC this fall
15:01:28 <MarkS> JS: I think we can arrange that.  We should look at schedules and who we would like in those meetings.
15:01:44 <MarkS> ...this will take some coordination
15:01:54 <MarkS> KAZ: TV is meeting on Monday, but we can make some arrangement
15:02:35 <MarkS> [adjourned]
15:02:36 <Zakim> -McCarron
15:02:38 <Zakim> -janina_
15:02:38 <Zakim> -Mark_Sadecki
15:02:40 <Zakim> -Kazuyuki
15:02:43 <Zakim> -wuwei
15:02:45 <Zakim> WAI_HTML AT()10:00AM has ended
15:02:45 <Zakim> Attendees were janina_, Mark_Sadecki, wuwei, pal, McCarron, +44.192.341.aaaa, nigel, Kazuyuki, JF
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15:15:01 <MarkS> rrsagent, make minutes
15:15:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/14-html-a11y-media-minutes.html MarkS
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