15:57:56 RRSAgent has joined #css 15:57:56 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/07/09-css-irc 15:58:02 Zakim has joined #css 15:58:10 rrsagent, make logs public 15:58:40 zakim must be resting 15:58:54 zakim, this will be style 15:58:54 ok, plinss, I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM already started 15:59:13 scribenick: dael 15:59:16 zakim, who is here? 15:59:16 On the phone I see dael, astearns_, SylvaIng 15:59:17 On IRC I see RRSAgent, SteveZ, dael, lmclister, glenn_, tommyliu, Alan, {Darktears}, dauwhe, plh, Ms2ger, CSSWG_LogBot, liam, renoirb, abucur__, mvujovic____, slightlyoff__, 15:59:17 ... mihnea___, sylvaing__, astearns_, amtiskaw_____, plinss, projector, shepazu, paul___irish, logbot, shans, fantasai, pdurbin, krijnhoetmer, leaverou, TabAtkins_, ed, hober, 15:59:22 ... birtles, sylvaing, SimonSapin_, kangil_, decadance, alexmog, cabanier, anssik, Teoli__, nikos, _martinwolf, achicu_____, Bert_, Hixie_, gsnedders, krit, cbiesinger__, 15:59:22 ... jacobg_____ 15:59:26 +??P4 15:59:32 +plinss 15:59:33 Zakim, ??P4 is me 15:59:33 +dauwhe 15:59:33 +SimonSapin_; got it 15:59:38 +??P3 15:59:47 Zakim, ??P4 is me 15:59:47 I already had ??P4 as SimonSapin_, SimonSapin 15:59:51 adenilson has joined #css 15:59:54 whatever 15:59:56 +??P11 16:00:02 Zakim, no, ??P4 is SimonSapin 16:00:03 I don't understand 'no, ??P4 is SimonSapin', Ms2ger 16:00:34 zakim, who is here? 16:00:34 On the phone I see dael, astearns_, SylvaIng, SimonSapin_, plinss, dauwhe, ??P3, ??P11 16:00:36 On IRC I see adenilson, Zakim, RRSAgent, SteveZ, dael, lmclister, glenn_, tommyliu, Alan, {Darktears}, dauwhe, plh, Ms2ger, CSSWG_LogBot, liam, renoirb, abucur__, mvujovic____, 16:00:36 ... slightlyoff__, mihnea___, sylvaing__, astearns_, amtiskaw_____, plinss, projector, shepazu, paul___irish, logbot, shans, fantasai, pdurbin, krijnhoetmer, leaverou, TabAtkins_, 16:00:41 ... ed, hober, birtles, sylvaing, SimonSapin, kangil_, decadance, alexmog, cabanier, anssik, Teoli__, nikos, _martinwolf, achicu_____, Bert_, Hixie_, gsnedders, krit, cbiesinger__ 16:00:44 zakim, SimonSapin_ is SimonSapin 16:00:44 +SimonSapin; got it 16:00:53 + +1.617.300.aaaa 16:00:57 gregwhitworth has joined #css 16:01:12 kawabata has joined #css 16:01:12 +Plh 16:01:27 +glenn 16:01:27 koji has joined #css 16:01:28 Zakim, aaaa is me 16:01:28 +fantasai; got it 16:01:31 + +1.425.366.aabb 16:01:36 -??P11 16:01:44 That is probably me. 16:01:49 murakami has joined #css 16:01:58 +hober 16:02:09 +??P25 16:02:16 +[Microsoft] 16:02:20 alex_antennahouse has joined #css 16:02:24 Zakim, ??P11 is me. 16:02:24 I already had ??P11 as hober, kawabata 16:02:24 Zakim, Microsoft is me 16:02:26 +gregwhitworth; got it 16:02:34 Zakim, ??P25 is me. 16:02:34 +kawabata; got it 16:02:54 Zakim: P11 is me. 16:02:56 +??P29 16:03:07 bkardell_ has joined #css 16:03:29 +[IPcaller] 16:03:31 +BrianKardell 16:03:54 +??P30 16:04:07 I'm probably the "IPcaller" 16:04:09 Zakim, ??P30 is me. 16:04:09 +murakami; got it 16:04:13 +??P36 16:04:55 plinss: Let's start. Hello eveyone. Anything to add? 16:04:56 + +1.631.398.aacc 16:05:00 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0137.html 16:05:12 fantasai: There was a message from simon on CSS-background that seems straightforward. If we have time we can look at that. 16:05:50 ??:I don't have anything, but I was wondering what the policy was. The last item is what I'm interested in and I have to leave early. Any way to shuffle? 16:06:06 plinss: We can certainly shuffle, but TabAtkins_ is the one that mentioned it and he's not here. 16:06:12 +SteveZ 16:06:14 bkardell_: We can maybe do it next week 16:06:18 +koji 16:06:19 s/??/bkardell/ 16:06:35 bert: WE started the prep for food and stuff, the room is reserved. 16:06:40 dbaron has joined #css 16:06:48 +dbaron 16:06:56 bert: I made the page on the wiki with registration. Please fill in your name. the name is needed for network acccess 16:07:01 What's that last item? In the car now, so I can talk for a bit in irc. 16:07:11 color parsing 16:07:25 bert: I put a few hotels around here, but you might want to look in surrounding towns. I don't know if people want rental cars, but you can maybe set up carpools 16:07:32 Kk. Of your okay with me being irc-only, I can talk. 16:07:32 AH_Miller has joined #CSS 16:07:41 Also I'm on a phone keyboard. 16:07:41 bert: If you have any information to share, use the wiki. Or topics for discussion. 16:07:51 bert: That's all I had to announce. Were there any questions? 16:08:02 is there a wiki page for this meeting? 16:08:07 bkardell_: No question, but thanks for putting it together. 16:08:10 Yes. 16:08:10 http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/sophia-2014 16:08:11 TabAtkins_, are you driving? 16:08:19 No. ^_^ 16:08:28 That's illegal in California. 16:08:30 bert: The page still has holes to be filled in, but there's some info already. 16:08:33 Ah, the page is not yet linked from the meeting planning page 16:08:39 plinss: Thanks 16:08:46 plinss: It looks like TabAtkins_ i on IRC 16:08:52 Topic: Exposing Color Parsing 16:08:53 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0106.html 16:09:13 plinss: TabAtkins_ sent this in about exposing some functions for color parsing. bkardell_ you said you were interested, do you want to speak? 16:09:33 - +1.631.398.aacc 16:09:37 bkardell_: He said in his e-mail he was planning on looking at deeper integration with CSS OM and I was curious what exactly this might intail 16:09:41 +AH_Miller 16:09:58 + +1.631.398.aadd 16:10:12 bkardell_: According to this you can make your own color format and that means you could expxess color format in ways that we're reflected in CSS or were but what form would they stringify... 16:10:20 bkardell_: It may be difficult with just IRC 16:10:27 Ah, the "deeper integration" is what I talked about at the January f2f. 16:10:39 The JS Value Objects-based proposal. 16:10:46 plinss: I presume with your own format it's just stringify and parsing and you'd get a POC format that you could assign directly 16:10:47 But that's still blocked on JS, so no need to worry about that for now. 16:11:06 plinss: Since TabAtkins_ is only partly here, any other opinions? 16:11:16 plinss: Is this worth pursuing? 16:11:34 SimonSapin: There's 2 things. One is exposing the parsing of CSS color from a string to RGB numbers and I think that's fine. 16:11:40 Yup, plinss. "var x = RGBAColor.fromMySpecialColor(foo, bar); el.style.color = x; /* stringifies to an rgba() function automatically */" 16:11:54 SimonSapin: The new color format, that's adding support for things that would be added in style sheets. 16:12:06 TabAtkins, what are 'foo' 'bar' 16:12:10 MaRakow has joined #CSS 16:12:25 sylvaing__: Whatever you want - that's an author-defined function. 16:12:27 bkardell_: The proposal inc both. It says authors can define their own color format by adding to RGB with appropriate color tags. If we're talking about the prop that's part of it. 16:12:48 They explicitly did "RGBAColor.prototype.fromMySpecialColor = function(foo, bar) { ... };" 16:13:03 Sorry, scratch the ".prototype". 16:13:06 plinss: I dont presume those color caps would be embeddible raw unless we really open parsing. This is only for authors programitically for whatever IO format, they can modify style sheets, but not add this as CSS source. 16:13:30 bkardell_: It seems that if you did thi from the prosp of serialization type, it is worth being able to diff browser native and user defined? 16:13:38 bkardell_: I am *not* talking about extending CSS itself (yet). This proposal is just to produce a Color object that has the right hooks that authors can use it for thier own needs, beyond just CSS. 16:13:55 (ACtually extending CSS for new color types will wait for custom functions.) 16:14:12 + +1.206.992.aaee 16:14:14 plinss: I'm not sure you'd need to. We have serialization for color so if you do an entire stylesheet it would go back to RGB. It wouldn't attempt another model because they style sheet wouldn't know what that format is. 16:14:18 plinss: Other op? 16:14:20 Zakim, aaee is me 16:14:20 +MaRakow; got it 16:14:29 TabAtkins: ah, check. I thought you were describing a proposal, not a practice 16:14:31 SimonSapin: Sounds good. Let's do it. 16:14:50 -??P3 16:14:51 plinss: I'm not hearing obj. Let's acept the prop and add to CSS Color 4 or the OM as approptiate 16:14:58 Topic extrinsic sizing of controls 16:15:03 tabatkins: I'm wondering really if RGBAColor.serializationTypes would differentiate an author defined serializationType, for example 16:15:03 Okay, I was going to ask what spec to put it in. Color works. ^_^ 16:15:14 fantasai: I was looking at the e-mail, I don't htink you meant extensic, I think you meant explicit. 16:15:22 bkardell_: It doesn't differentiate, no. 16:15:37 gregwhitworth: I'm ref to exterior width. I know vendors get antsy about what's on the interior 16:16:03 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0143.html 16:16:04 fantasai: So extrinisic isn't the word. I think this is in CSS2.1 we spec where the scrollbar goes and takes room. It's not super clear but it spec the Firefox behaviour 16:16:07 bkardell_: But the default serializer is rgba(), and having the ability to serialize is distinct from the ability to parse. 16:16:11 fantasai: Here's the responce. 16:16:29 rossen: For all I know we have a bug there for not taking scrollbar out of min-width 16:16:30 +??P3 16:16:36 bkardell_: Like I said, in the future custom functions should take care of actually extending CSS. For example: 16:16:38 fantasai: Min-width and width shouldn't be diff 16:16:55 rossen: I agree I don't think 2.1 has text for that, but I agree the intent is they should be the same 16:17:02 fantasai: They're def as eq. in their effects 16:17:14 rossen: Scroll-bar size is taken out of use width 16:17:15 -kawabata 16:17:24 Eh, don't wanna write out an example right now. It'll look something like the Custom Pseudo-classes bit. 16:17:29 TabAtkins_: Yeah, it was mainly about is there utility in being able to thinking about future proposals...maybe I'll comment privately || on ML 16:17:39 fantasai: min-width effects content box, but we take out the scrollbar once you form a containin block. So the content inside is in a smaller box. 16:17:56 +??P25 16:18:01 rossen: I think gregwhitworth 's example shows issues with IE and chrome. Other than that I don't think we need spec changes. 16:18:04 Zakim, ??P25 is me. 16:18:04 +kawabata; got it 16:18:09 rossen: Unless gregwhitworth thinks otherwwise 16:18:18 gregwhitworth: I wanted to make sure we're on the same page 16:18:35 rossen: Point isvalid, we should converge. I thnk the spec is clear and we need to fix bugs. 16:18:39 rossen: Anything else on this? 16:18:42 gregwhitworth: Nope. 16:18:51 fantasai: Nope. If we want to clarify 2.1 we can. 16:19:12 zakim, who is noisy? 16:19:17 topic: CSS Ruby 16:19:24 dael, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P3 (9%), fantasai (69%), [IPcaller] (19%) 16:19:31 fantasai: The update is that we've been working on the box model, partic anon box. 16:19:48 fantasai: I've been doing thaton the list mozilla is impl the rules so we're getting good feedback 16:20:09 fantasai: My goal is to get Boris to agree the rules are correct and than get a new WD. THere stuff with Ruby layout I haven't drafted. 16:20:45 fantasai: We've also defined white space by making anon boxes that are similar to exisiting, but they don't pair. If there's pairs, they get paired with anon boxes in another layer 16:21:01 fantasai: For nested I'm trying to handle with layout rules rather then trying something fancy in box generation. 16:21:12 fantasai: That'st he overview. If there's interest I can do more details. 16:21:25 plinss: Okay. No questions? 16:21:33 plinss: I know everyone is excited about Ruby 16:21:45 fantasai: Is there anyone that wants to review taht I should wait for feedback? 16:21:53 s/taht/that 16:22:06 I'll check it closely. 16:22:13 fantasai: Okay. I'll wrap up edits with Boris and get a check from koroboto-san (sp?) 16:22:19 Topic: Grid Layout 16:22:21 s/koroboto/kawabata/ 16:22:22 kawabata. ;-> 16:22:33 fantasai: I do think extrinsic is the correct term per the sizing spec as I don't want controls demensions to be determined by the contents if stated the the author 16:22:34 rossen: I was in and out and counldn't review. 16:23:07 rossen: I got fantasai e-mail, but I'm just not ready. If we want to make desc I'd ask to postpone. Is this just an awareness, that's fine. But if you want concensus, I'd prefer next week 16:23:13 fantasai: I'll explain, but not resolve. 16:23:42 -[IPcaller] 16:23:46 fantasai: For Grid we have 2 prop in any dimnestions there's grid coloumn start and end. These can be lines or a span of this many lines or names lines. 16:23:50 skype crashed, calling in again 16:24:24 fantasai: We have error handling if you spec, for say, a line that doesn't exist. Or a diff case if you're spanning for 5 and there's only 4. We had various rules for different cases for what if you don't have enough. 16:24:42 +[IPcaller] 16:25:11 fantasai: What we did was we realized we could have a simple rule that says there's an explicit grid and that's the one you set up. There's also an implicit grid where if you position an item with numbers such that it's no longer in that explicit grid, they're that implicit grid 16:25:42 fantasai: We decided we could simplify by saying if you can't find a named line, assume that the implicit grid has those lines and count in there. It's simple and consistant. 16:25:59 fantasai: It can give you odd results, but that's good because it gives you things that are noticibly off. 16:26:19 fantasai: Those are the main advantages of this new set of rules. We're looking for review from anyone with an opinion 16:26:44 rossen: I don't see anything wrong witht he approach, I have to sit down and work through the cases and see if this is sufficent. 16:26:51 rossen: If it is I'm fine. 16:27:10 fantasai: If you're interested, send you comments, otherwise well close with rossen's opinon next week. 16:27:35 plinss: It sounds reasonable approach, any times there's an error the author won't get it. I think this is as good as we'll get. 16:28:17 rossen: I'd better to keep the error as dominat and simple as possible. We don't want the "help" them too much. We want to to be outragious so that it's obviously an error. Let me sit down and I'll have a better opinon next itme. 16:28:36 fantasai: b/c we have a rule with jsut numbers and not names, if you say 7th and there's only 5, we create a 7th. 16:29:00 fantasai: If you think of named lines creating an implicit grid, we just do the name thing. We add named lines until you have the right number. 16:29:25 plinss: The problem is if people are adding named, there's a pattern and the author wll expect a pattern, but I don't htink we want to create an algorythm for that. 16:29:33 rossen: I agree, especially int he error case. 16:29:39 rossen: It makes sense. 16:29:41 fantasai: Yep. 16:30:01 rossen: While we're on grid, related. Do we have anything for flex box? Where do we stand? 16:30:16 fantasai: We fixed a bunch of issues. A lot was responces to change. Some was other noticed errors. 16:30:29 fantasai: There's 2 issues that aren't quite sorted. 16:30:33 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/issues-lc-20140325 16:30:36 fantasai: Here's the DoC 16:30:52 fantasai: We have an open issue on intrensic aspect ratio items and minimum sizing 16:31:00 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/issues-lc-20140325#issue-19 16:31:05 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/issues-lc-20140325#issue-16 16:31:14 fantasai: There was a couple we fixed and need review, I think issue 19. 16 is open. And then static pos stuff we haven't sorted. 16:31:21 rossen: For the auto postion abspos? 16:31:27 fantasai: Yeah. That's issue 12. 16:31:34 rossen: Okay 16:31:35 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/issues-lc-20140325#issue-12 16:31:44 rossen: It doesn't sound far from done. 16:31:51 -??P3 16:31:59 fantasai: It's those 3 to look through. 16 and 19 need review because they're confusing issues. 16:32:08 fantasai: I think 16 has comments from dholbert 16:32:39 +??P3 16:32:43 fantasai: Once we're through those we'll have a complete DoC to review with the WG and do a new LC. We really appriciate comments because there's a lot of tricky things 16:32:48 -??P3 16:32:53 rossen: Thanks. Sorry to hyjack the agenda 16:33:02 Topic: Korean vs Japanese Justification 16:33:04 +??P3 16:33:08 -kawabata 16:33:13 fantasai: koji is trying to get comments from the Korean community 16:33:34 +??P20 16:33:46 fantasai: There are Japanese and Chinese docs that are fomatted similarly. Korean isn't though. Most modern docs are in hangul, but some have Chinese charaters. 16:34:11 fantasai: So Chinese charaters are a part of Korean, but not commen. Korean does have spaces and uses spaces to just like Latin. 16:34:54 fantasai: Chinese and Japanese don't use spaces to justify. What happens in a line of Japaeses you'll have only 0 or 1 spaces and if you use spaces to jusitfy you have huge spaces. Instead you space between characters. 16:35:19 fantasai: This has created a problem between Korean and Japanese documents where Korean wants to use the spaces to just. 16:36:17 fantasai: I think one rowser spaces between Chinese and Japanese, but not Hangul which creates some problems. We're looking fro a comprimise that's appropriate for untagged content. If it's tagged you're fine, but when it's untagged that's what we're stuck on. While the spec won't requrire anything, we wanted to have a suggestion 16:36:30 s/problems/problems with mixed-script text/ 16:36:49 SteveZ: Question. Clearly the existance of either Hangul or the various kana in Japanese gives you a hint of the language, but that req pre-scanning 16:37:12 fantasai: So far we're tried to avoid heuristic detection. If we built that in it would be a sig. paradym shift. 16:37:26 fantasai: We're trying to avoid heyristic and only rely on tags and prop. 16:37:35 SimonSapin: Would it make sense to look at lang? 16:37:39 fantasai: This is when lang isn't present 16:38:02 SteveZ: Anyone looking at the page could tell you what language. It'll seem strange to the user that they sytem can't 16:38:32 fantasai: If the WG wants to go that route we can. I think there was a text-script prop before wher eyou auto-detect the dom. script and if it's wrong you can tag, but so far we've avoided auto. 16:38:43 dbaron: I'd rather encourage people to tag their lang correctly 16:38:44 s/auto/auto-detection/ 16:38:54 +1 to dbaron's comment 16:38:55 +1 dbaron 16:38:55 taoniud has joined #css 16:39:05 s/tag their lang/language-tag their content/ 16:39:40 Alan has left #css 16:39:43 SteveZ: I think...I agree that haven't tagging on something is the best way to go, but we've already learned people copy from others and do the min to get it look right and I think browsers in Korea may get tuned to make a Korean assumption and it works if you don't take it out of the context. 16:39:47 - +1.425.366.aabb 16:39:51 fantasai: I think that used to be true, but no longer. 16:39:57 SteveZ: You think authors are tagging? 16:40:11 fantasai: I think browsers aren't shipping biased versions of layout versions 16:40:21 SteveZ: It's not much of a bias to say assume Korean. 16:40:24 s/versions/engines/ 16:40:26 fantasai: It's still a bias. 16:40:33 ??: There's lang setting in the OS 16:41:00 fantasai: We don't use the OS because it would make our page look different depending on what computer you're looking at. We want to depand only on page content. 16:41:06 lang setting comment was me 16:41:30 plh: Firefox as a fallback basis on local of user. That's legicy and I don't think we should add a new beaviour 16:41:39 s/plh/SimonSapin/ 16:41:50 s/as a/has a character encoding/ 16:41:51 plinss: I agree. If we want to encourage authors we can define the default as the worst behavior. 16:42:21 dbaron: There's enough pages without langague tag that we can't do something horrible, but we can do something like make hyphens not work. 16:42:29 this doesn't seem horrible if there is no way to tell 16:42:33 s/hyphens/hyphenation/ 16:42:35 fantasai: So we can make spacing look not optimal, but that's the worst. 16:42:59 SteveZ: So is plinss suggesting something that doesn't work in either and dbaron says that's not an option? 16:43:30 fantasai: I think dbaron is saying don't break stuff, but you won't get the best behaviour if you don't tag 16:43:48 plinss: I was trying to encourage authors to tag, which means as little magic and markup as possible 16:44:05 ??: Can you treat justification so it doesn't work without language tagging? 16:44:36 fantasai: I think the default should be better where it doesn't work for CJK and does for latin. We can't make it worse than it is. All space sep. lang work now. 16:44:56 SteveZ: If the current state is it doesn't work for non-space-sep lang. we can leave it to make eople tag 16:45:31 fantasai: We dropped inter-character value so there's a bunch of pages that spec inter-character, but since we dropped that and assumed auto would handle it, we have to make sure auto does 16:45:37 SteveZ: This sounds like a problem we made. 16:45:51 fantasai: A bit. BUt I don't think Firefox supports it so it's not comepletely us. 16:45:59 SteveZ: WE dropped inter-characcter because? 16:46:12 -BrianKardell 16:46:27 Rossen_ has joined #css 16:46:33 fantasai: The arguement was auto should be able to do it. We have a couple of solutions that approx the right thing, but not quite perfect. The discussion is of the possiible comp., what's the best 16:46:35 -??P29 16:46:36 +[Microsoft] 16:46:46 zakim, microsoft has me 16:46:46 +Rossen_; got it 16:46:50 SteveZ: I haven't thought about it a lot, it seems inter-character should come back 16:47:18 fantasai: inter-char isn't needed if you tag correctly, but people are using intercharacter to fix their layout, thier pages. 16:47:30 SteveZ: they didn't understand the effects of lang tagging 16:47:32 fantasai: yeah. 16:48:02 s/SteveZ/glenn/ 16:48:07 koji: I think I'm tending toward inter-character, but I'm awaiting the replies from Korean community. There's a poss we want it back. 16:48:18 koji: It may be correct or not, but we need a littler more disctinction. 16:48:29 plinss: It sounds like we loop back with more feedback 16:48:44 fantasai: If there's ideas for a comprimise for default rendering, comment on the threat. 16:48:55 Topic: CSS Background issue 16:48:56 -??P20 16:49:05 SimonSapin: It's about backgrounds of the canvas. 16:49:33 +??P10 16:49:37 SimonSapin: What happens if we spec none of visibility hidden. It's not clear in the spec what should happen, but we have strong introp that the BG is still show with display on, but not with visibility hidden. 16:49:52 rhauck has joined #css 16:50:04 dbaron: There's a test case Hixie wrote a while ago. There was one for display-none and filed it against all the browsers. 16:50:13 SimonSapin: We should have a corrisponding statement in the spec 16:50:14 dbaron: Sure. 16:50:22 Do you happen to have a link to that test case? 16:50:27 plinss: Okay. Everyone agree? 16:50:41 Rossen_: Any reference to the test cases? 16:50:42 -dbaron 16:50:57 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0144.html 16:51:06 SimonSapin: Here's the link with simple test cases. 16:51:13 wrong link, sorry 16:51:26 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0137.html 16:51:59 fantasai: I don't have much opinion, but whatever we do should be consistant with how we do writing mode direction and overflow propagation. 16:52:17 plinss: If you're in a display: none situation, will any of the prop have an effect. 16:52:24 plinss: All you'd draw is a canvas 16:52:46 fantasai: You can detect with overflow: scroll and than it may have an effect depending on propigation. 16:52:58 s/with/ 16:53:04 SimonSapin: Do we only get writing mode direction fromt he root element? 16:53:20 Rossen_: I think for IE we always propigate from body or HTML 16:53:27 s/than it may/theat might/ 16:53:34 s/propigation/implementation/ 16:53:40 s/propigate/propagate/ 16:53:49 cbiesinger__ has left #css 16:53:57 Rossen_: We treat it the same way tot he root element which HTML spec that we take those and leave body so it has a chance to redefine for overflow or writing. If HTML doesn't have it we take it from body 16:54:04 SimonSapin: The spec says don't do that. 16:54:06 Rossen_: Which? 16:54:06 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-writing-modes/#direction 16:54:15 SimonSapin: Link above 16:54:16 "Note that the direction property of the HTML BODY element is not propagated to the viewport. That special behavior only applies to the background and overflow properties." 16:54:34 Rossen_: That spec was written 5 years after we did that impl. Maybe it now says something different, but that's what we do. 16:54:45 +dbaron 16:55:01 Rossen_: It's interesting that it deviates from how we handle overflow I would expect same. 16:55:15 fantasai: We had a legacy constraint that we were hoping wasn't there for direction 16:55:22 fantasai: We wanted authors to tag the root 16:55:50 Rossen_: If you haven't impl writing-mode, maybe. If you've had it from a long time then you have an issue and if you write ignoring that you can avoid the issue. 16:56:02 fantasai: This is direction. It's been around since the 90s. 16:56:10 fantasai: Everyone's impl it. 16:56:13 Rossen_: Right. 16:56:22 plinss: Any conclusions? 16:56:56 SimonSapin: For writing-mode and direction prop this propigation only applies to prinicple writing mode which is only used for paged media 16:57:00 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-writing-modes/#principal-writing-mode 16:57:09 Rossen_: Would you expect different for regions? 16:57:15 s/prinicple/principal/ 16:57:32 fantasai: Regions wouldn't need principal writing mode. It has its own thing. 16:57:40 (fyi: the note was including in the FPWD of writing modes back in 2010, but it's not part of CSS2.1) 16:57:58 plinss: We're low on time and should wrap up. I think we agree we want to spec current behavious, at least for background prop. Where is that? 16:58:05 fantasai: backgrounds and boards 3 16:58:10 plinss: not 2.1 erratta? 16:58:15 fantasai: We could do that. 16:58:25 Rossen_: 2.1 erratta would be nice. 16:58:34 plinss: So we'll call it 2.1 errata 16:58:38 fantasai: bert can you do that? 16:58:50 bert: I can if I know the text. What is it? 16:58:55 fantasai: SimonSapin can you write one? 16:58:58 SimonSapin: Okay. 16:59:12 is it possible to have a test case for this erratum? 16:59:13 fantasai: SimonSapin will write prop text, we can ratify it, and you can make the errata 16:59:28 plinss: Anything we want to do with propigation of the other prop, or leave it for now? 16:59:35 Rossen_: Let's do it separate 16:59:38 plinss: Okay. 16:59:52 -dbaron 16:59:54 plinss: That's the end of the hour and the agenda. Thanks everyone and we'll talk again next week. 16:59:55 -dauwhe 16:59:56 -SteveZ 16:59:56 -[IPcaller] 16:59:56 -AH_Miller 16:59:57 -koji 16:59:57 bye 16:59:57 -??P36 16:59:59 -Plh 16:59:59 -plinss 16:59:59 -hober 17:00:00 -fantasai 17:00:00 -astearns_ 17:00:01 -dael 17:00:01 -??P3 17:00:02 AH_Miller has joined #CSS 17:00:02 -[Microsoft] 17:00:03 -MaRakow 17:00:04 -SimonSapin 17:00:04 - +1.631.398.aadd 17:00:06 -murakami 17:00:06 -??P10 17:00:13 -gregwhitworth 17:00:22 kawabata has left #css 17:02:08 -glenn 17:07:09 disconnecting the lone participant, SylvaIng, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM 17:07:10 Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended 17:07:10 Attendees were dael, astearns_, SylvaIng, plinss, dauwhe, SimonSapin, +1.617.300.aaaa, Plh, glenn, fantasai, +1.425.366.aabb, hober, gregwhitworth, kawabata, [IPcaller], 17:07:11 ... BrianKardell, murakami, +1.631.398.aacc, SteveZ, koji, dbaron, AH_Miller, +1.631.398.aadd, +1.206.992.aaee, MaRakow, Rossen_ 17:07:54 zakim, bye 17:07:54 Zakim has left #css 17:10:01 fantasai: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-grid/#propdef-grid-area "Note: The resolution order for this shorthand is row-start/column-start/row-end/column-end, which goes CCW for LTR pages, the opposite direction of the related 4-edge properties using physical directions, like margin.", was there a reason for not making it like physical shorthands? 17:10:55 or TabAtkins ^ 17:11:47 Yes, we discussed that at the last f2f a bit. 17:12:17 First, it *is* like physical directions, on RTL pages. 17:12:50 eh, ok 17:13:01 Second, row-start to column-end is a dumb ordering that makes no sense. 17:13:27 Why do it, then? 17:13:35 Just straight up, it sounds dumb. And for this case on particular, it's totally dumb. 17:13:46 Ms2ger: ? 17:15:54 SimonSapin: Because you want to be able to specify the position by itself, typically be placing the start edges, and with the dumb ordering that would require using the first and last of for arguments. With the current order, you just use the first two and omit the latter two. 17:16:25 Ms2ger: I think you misread what I wrote. 17:17:25 TabAtkins: ok, sounds good 17:27:22 plh has left #css 17:40:40 adenilson has joined #css 17:45:58 dbaron has joined #css 19:23:22 adenilson_ has joined #css 19:35:46 adenilson has joined #css 20:05:05 tantek has joined #css 20:39:00 plh has joined #css 20:47:09 arronei has joined #css 20:49:13 dauwhe has joined #css 20:57:23 arronei has joined #css 21:13:02 dauwhe_ has joined #css 21:40:23 glenn_ has joined #css 22:05:33 glenn has joined #css 22:13:30 glenn_ has joined #css 22:15:45 glenn has joined #css 22:18:49 glenn__ has joined #css 22:32:48 glenn has joined #css 22:34:07 glenn_ has joined #css 22:46:50 glenn has joined #css 22:50:37 glenn_ has joined #css 22:58:17 glenn has joined #css 23:01:52 tommyliu_ has joined #css 23:07:27 lmclister has joined #css 23:17:40 lmclister has joined #css 23:19:00 glenn_ has joined #css 23:21:40 glenn__ has joined #css 23:23:44 lmclister has joined #css 23:24:26 tantek has joined #css