14:34:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
14:34:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/07/08-wai-wcag-irc
14:34:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:34:20 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #wai-wcag
14:34:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
14:34:22 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 26 minutes
14:34:23 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
14:34:23 <trackbot> Date: 08 July 2014
14:34:55 <Joshue> agenda+ Actions and Issues check-in:
14:34:55 <Joshue> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/open
14:34:55 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/issues
14:35:24 <Joshue> agenda+ Update on Mobile A11y TF progress from Kathy
14:35:56 <Joshue> agenda+ Continue with Success Criteria walkthrough:
14:35:57 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/24June2014/results
14:36:13 <Joshue> agenda+ New SC Walkthrough Survey:
14:36:14 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SC1_2_1_July2014/
14:36:33 <Joshue> agenda+ Final pass to resolve any remaining comments on WCAG-EM pre publication.
14:36:56 <Joshue> agenda+ Introduction of accessibility support database to the WCAG group (Shadi)
14:37:23 <Joshue> agenda+ Comments needing responses https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Comments_Needing_Responses
14:37:55 <Joshue> agenda+ New Survey:
14:37:55 <Joshue> EO proposal for LC-2895 and an update on the RWD/Progressive Enhancement technique from Alistair
14:37:55 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/9thJuly2014/
14:38:00 <Joshue> Chair: Joshue
14:48:48 <Joshue> Regrets+ Kathleen
14:53:47 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2014JulSep/0004.html
14:54:08 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has now started
14:54:15 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:54:20 <Joshue> zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue
14:54:20 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
14:57:07 <Kenny> Kenny has joined #wai-wcag
14:57:56 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
14:59:25 <Sailesh> Sailesh has joined #wai-wcag
14:59:25 <bbailey> bbailey has joined #wai-wcag
14:59:30 <Zakim> + +1.617.766.aaaa
14:59:37 <AWK> AWK has joined #wai-wcag
15:00:19 <Zakim> +Sailesh_Panchang
15:00:52 <Zakim> +Bruce_Bailey
15:00:58 <Zakim> +??P26
15:01:22 <bbailey> zakim, this is bruce
15:01:22 <Zakim> sorry, bbailey, I do not see a conference named 'bruce' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:01:30 <bbailey> zakim, i am bruce
15:01:30 <Zakim> ok, bbailey, I now associate you with Bruce_Bailey
15:01:47 <Zakim> +Kenny
15:01:57 <MichaelC> zakim, aaaa is Andrew_Kirkpatrick
15:01:58 <Zakim> +Andrew_Kirkpatrick; got it
15:03:41 <Joshue> ack me
15:03:52 <jon_avila> jon_avila has joined #wai-wcag
15:04:38 <EricVelleman> EricVelleman has joined #wai-wcag
15:04:41 <Zakim> + +1.571.389.aabb
15:04:48 <jon_avila> zakim, I am aabb
15:04:49 <Zakim> +jon_avila; got it
15:04:58 <Zakim> -Joshue
15:05:38 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #WAI-WCAG
15:06:00 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:06:10 <Joshue> zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue
15:06:10 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
15:06:34 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:06:40 <AWK> Zakim, agenda?
15:06:40 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
15:06:41 <Zakim> 1. Actions and Issues check-in: [from Joshue]
15:06:41 <Zakim> 2. Update on Mobile A11y TF progress from Kathy [from Joshue]
15:06:41 <Zakim> 3. Continue with Success Criteria walkthrough: [from Joshue]
15:06:41 <Zakim> 4. New SC Walkthrough Survey: [from Joshue]
15:06:41 <Zakim> 5. Final pass to resolve any remaining comments on WCAG-EM pre publication. [from Joshue]
15:06:42 <Zakim> 6. Introduction of accessibility support database to the WCAG group (Shadi) [from Joshue]
15:06:42 <Zakim> 7. Comments needing responses https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Comments_Needing_Responses [from Joshue]
15:06:42 <Zakim> 8. New Survey: [from Joshue]
15:06:48 <Loretta> zakim, IPcaller is Loretta
15:06:48 <Zakim> +Loretta; got it
15:07:22 <Zakim> +Kathy_Wahlbin
15:07:49 <AWK> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List
15:09:01 <Joshue> zakim, next item
15:09:01 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Actions and Issues check-in:" taken up [from Joshue]
15:09:06 <Joshue> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/open
15:09:14 <bbailey> scribe: bruce
15:09:18 <David> David has joined #wai-wcag
15:09:20 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/issues
15:10:17 <bbailey> List of action items geeting longer
15:10:32 <Joshue> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/open
15:10:32 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag
15:10:36 <Zakim> +Marc_Johlic
15:10:42 <MichaelC> scribe: bbailey
15:10:50 <MichaelC> ack me
15:11:07 <bbailey> Bruce confirmed that no update on 508 NPRM
15:11:25 <bbailey> Next likely opportunity is Board Meeting on 8 September
15:11:36 <MichaelC> ack me
15:12:02 <bbailey> MC, Josh discuss methodology for picking up action items
15:12:44 <bbailey> Joshue preference is start on newest ones because they can be quick
15:12:46 <Joshue> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/118
15:13:02 <bbailey> sort by date
15:13:39 <bbailey> date sort is by due, not created
15:14:09 <Joshue> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/261
15:14:24 <bbailey> AWK will be working on 118, work in progress
15:14:30 <Loretta> Clean-up suggestion: review all action item assigned to people who are no longer (active) member of the WG and either close them or reassign them.
15:14:49 <bbailey> Kathy added comments to 261
15:15:02 <bbailey> Added some data to action, not issue
15:15:26 <bbailey> MC:  need to figure out how to trigger action
15:15:48 <bbailey> Chairs to look at issues
15:15:58 <bbailey> ACTION: close 261
15:15:59 <trackbot> Error finding 'close'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/users>.
15:16:08 <MichaelC> close action-261
15:16:08 <trackbot> Closed action-261.
15:16:29 <Joshue> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/260
15:16:42 <bbailey> Kathleen not on call, no notes, leave open
15:16:42 <MichaelC> action-260?
15:16:43 <trackbot> action-260 -- Kathleen Anderson to Look into issue 11 kathleen -- due 2014-06-10 -- OPEN
15:16:43 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/260
15:17:01 <Joshue> Leave open
15:17:11 <Joshue> action-259?
15:17:11 <trackbot> action-259 -- Kathleen Anderson to To look into issue-11 -- due 2014-06-10 -- OPEN
15:17:11 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/259
15:17:42 <Joshue> close action-259
15:17:42 <trackbot> Closed action-259.
15:17:44 <bbailey> mc: 259 redundant
15:17:56 <Joshue> action-256?
15:17:56 <trackbot> action-256 -- Andrew Kirkpatrick to Find out when h80 became advisory -- due 2014-05-13 -- OPEN
15:17:56 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/256
15:18:18 <bbailey> Joshuea: 256 on AWK
15:18:31 <bbailey> AWK:  still working on it
15:18:51 <Joshue> action-256: AWK to work on it
15:18:51 <trackbot> Notes added to action-256 Find out when h80 became advisory.
15:19:03 <bbailey> Discuss purpose of 256, try to recolect
15:19:16 <bbailey> MC:  reminds us to add detail to action
15:20:05 <bbailey> mc: ask to keep open
15:20:19 <bbailey> awk: will dig in more
15:20:20 <Joshue> action-255?
15:20:20 <trackbot> action-255 -- Jonathan Avila to Will suggest a text change for aria7 at a later time -- due 2014-04-29 -- OPEN
15:20:20 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/255
15:20:57 <bbailey> salish: insert plus t creates heading, insert overloaded as key like ctrl or alt
15:21:17 <bbailey> insert-t gives context of heading in JAWS
15:21:31 <MichaelC> action-255?
15:21:31 <trackbot> action-255 -- Jonathan Avila to Will suggest a text change for aria7 at a later time -- due 2014-04-29 -- OPEN
15:21:31 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/255
15:22:07 <bbailey> Jon A;  update status
15:22:35 <bbailey> Jon:  wrt related issue, initiated off-list email to chairs
15:22:57 <bbailey> mc:  issues is not currently tied to action
15:23:11 <bbailey> awk:  action 17 ?
15:23:12 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-255 with issue-17
15:23:12 <trackbot> action-255 (Will suggest a text change for aria7 at a later time) associated with issue-17.
15:23:15 <Joshue> action-255: Jon made an issue for this item 17 with a recommendation, discussed on the list etc
15:23:15 <trackbot> Notes added to action-255 Will suggest a text change for aria7 at a later time.
15:23:50 <bbailey> mc:  trackbot has syntax for associating actions with issues
15:24:01 <Joshue> action-255: Chairs have been updated
15:24:02 <trackbot> Notes added to action-255 Will suggest a text change for aria7 at a later time.
15:24:16 <bbailey> mc:  recommend sending emails to list, not just chairs
15:24:48 <bbailey> Jon:  message did get to list, conclusion was that issue redundant
15:25:06 <bbailey> jon:  email may 27
15:25:15 <bbailey> awk:  issue 20 ?
15:25:46 <bbailey> jon:  no, offer to forward email to list.  MC:  not finding email on list
15:26:13 <bbailey> Jon:  will reforward prosal to list
15:26:29 <bbailey> mc:  put action or issue number in subject line
15:26:48 <bbailey> mc:  tracker will pickup posts to lists automatically
15:27:10 <bbailey> mc:  tracker monitors wg lists
15:27:27 <Joshue> action-252?
15:27:27 <trackbot> action-252 -- Wilco Fiers to Investigate accessibility support for h53 -- due 2014-04-15 -- OPEN
15:27:27 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/252
15:27:31 <bbailey> mc:  adds links from wg lists if it spots issues or action numbers
15:27:41 <Joshue> action-252: Leave open
15:27:41 <trackbot> Notes added to action-252 Investigate accessibility support for h53.
15:27:45 <bbailey> wilco not on call, will leave open
15:28:06 <bbailey> Issue is use of terms per EO
15:28:19 <bbailey> AWK thinks resolved
15:28:32 <Joshue> close action item 250
15:28:43 <Joshue> close action-250
15:28:43 <trackbot> Closed action-250.
15:28:45 <Joshue> close action-251
15:28:45 <trackbot> Closed action-251.
15:29:07 <shadi> shadi has joined #wai-wcag
15:29:24 <bbailey> action-249?
15:29:24 <trackbot> action-249 -- Joshue O Connor to Update technique f24 as proposed -- due 2014-04-08 -- OPEN
15:29:24 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/249
15:29:34 <shadi> zakim, code?
15:29:34 <Zakim> the conference code is 9224 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), shadi
15:29:45 <bbailey> mc:  need to get better on contualizing actions
15:29:46 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:29:50 <shadi> zakim, ipcaller is me
15:29:50 <Zakim> +shadi; got it
15:29:53 <Joshue> Leave open
15:30:11 <bbailey> action-249: leave open
15:30:11 <trackbot> Notes added to action-249 Update technique f24 as proposed.
15:30:29 <MichaelC> action-249: http://www.w3.org/2014/04/01-wai-wcag-minutes
15:30:29 <trackbot> Notes added to action-249 Update technique f24 as proposed.
15:31:10 <bbailey> awk: enough actions for now...
15:31:15 <bbailey> taking up issues
15:31:40 <bbailey> zakim, next item
15:31:40 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Update on Mobile A11y TF progress from Kathy" taken up [from Joshue]
15:31:56 <Joshue> zakim, agenda?
15:31:58 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
15:31:58 <Zakim> 2. Update on Mobile A11y TF progress from Kathy [from Joshue]
15:31:58 <Zakim> 3. Continue with Success Criteria walkthrough: [from Joshue]
15:31:59 <Zakim> 4. New SC Walkthrough Survey: [from Joshue]
15:32:00 <Zakim> 5. Final pass to resolve any remaining comments on WCAG-EM pre publication. [from Joshue]
15:32:00 <Zakim> 6. Introduction of accessibility support database to the WCAG group (Shadi) [from Joshue]
15:32:00 <Zakim> 7. Comments needing responses https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Comments_Needing_Responses [from Joshue]
15:32:00 <Zakim> 8. New Survey: [from Joshue]
15:32:08 <bbailey> zakim, take up item 5
15:32:08 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Final pass to resolve any remaining comments on WCAG-EM pre publication." taken up [from Joshue]
15:32:22 <bbailey> shadi briefing wg
15:32:28 <shadi> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2014JulSep/0006.html
15:32:34 <bbailey> followup from call a couple weeks ago
15:32:48 <bbailey> evaluation methodology
15:32:56 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:32:56 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:33:07 <bbailey> survey opened to GL and ERT working group and people who made comments
15:33:22 <bbailey> Disposition of all comments, and how addressed in email
15:33:36 <bbailey> Erik Vellum also involved, but not on call today
15:33:55 <bbailey> About 46 comments previously, 16-17 commenters
15:33:56 <Joshue> s/Vellum/Velleman
15:34:08 <bbailey> most editorial, ~30
15:34:30 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20140704
15:34:32 <bbailey> No blocking comments, characterize as editorial
15:34:50 <Joshue> zakim, drop item 2
15:34:50 <Zakim> agendum 2, Update on Mobile A11y TF progress from Kathy, dropped
15:34:51 <bbailey> Requesting approval of "final final" editorial draft
15:35:24 <bbailey> editorial changes for clarification, combine some paragraphs
15:35:38 <bbailey> Clarified in 3D about random samples
15:35:54 <bbailey> Dropped reference to FAQ
15:36:14 <bbailey> Just pointed to understanding document instead
15:36:33 <bbailey> Clarified discussion wrt metrics and scoring
15:36:51 <bbailey> address all comments and request confirmation approval from group
15:36:55 <Joshue> ack me
15:37:03 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
15:37:03 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:37:07 <bbailey> have heard back affirmative from some commenters
15:37:14 <bbailey> looking for group affirmation
15:37:25 <bbailey> David approves his comments
15:37:36 <bbailey> Joshue calls for approval as WG note
15:37:58 <bbailey> no objections
15:38:11 <bbailey> RESOLUTION:  WG approves note and publication
15:38:27 <bbailey> much applause and appreciation
15:38:57 <bbailey> leave accessibility db for next week
15:39:09 <bbailey> joshue thanks shadi
15:39:13 <Joshue> zakim, agenda?
15:39:13 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
15:39:14 <Zakim> 3. Continue with Success Criteria walkthrough: [from Joshue]
15:39:14 <Zakim> 4. New SC Walkthrough Survey: [from Joshue]
15:39:14 <Zakim> 5. Final pass to resolve any remaining comments on WCAG-EM pre publication. [from Joshue]
15:39:14 <Zakim> 6. Introduction of accessibility support database to the WCAG group (Shadi) [from Joshue]
15:39:15 <Zakim> 7. Comments needing responses https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Comments_Needing_Responses [from Joshue]
15:39:15 <Zakim> 8. New Survey: [from Joshue]
15:39:26 <Joshue> zakim, take up item 3
15:39:26 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Continue with Success Criteria walkthrough:" taken up [from Joshue]
15:40:00 <AWK> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/24June2014/results
15:40:00 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/24June2014/results
15:40:27 <bbailey> Will be recollecting memory as standing agenda item
15:40:47 <bbailey> Joshue: some good comments, looking for more feedback
15:40:57 <bbailey> what you like, didn't like, what do you remember
15:41:24 <bbailey> awk:  related to 1.1.1 people get lost in long list
15:41:41 <bbailey> awk:  confusable terms, captcha is a kind of test
15:41:52 <bbailey> awk:  tests have controls and inputs
15:42:04 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
15:42:04 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:42:22 <bbailey> awk:  would prefer to elimiat special case of decorative, invisible, etc.
15:42:45 <bbailey> awk:  whole thing seems heavy.  How might we simplify?
15:42:49 <Zakim> +Katie_Haritos-Shea
15:42:50 <David> q+
15:43:54 <Ryladog> Ryladog has joined #wai-wcag
15:43:59 <Joshue> BB: It seems like it is inconsistent that 1.3.1 is so different from 1.1.1 - its like with 1.1.1 we listed all the cases and we did - we need to unify the approach
15:44:04 <AWK> ack david
15:44:34 <bbailey> david m: confussion in decorative and purely decrative
15:44:49 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #wai-wcag
15:44:55 <bbailey> dm: need more guidence between cases
15:45:04 <bbailey> dm:  alt="" is over used
15:45:12 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
15:45:30 <bbailey> dm:  definition of purely decorative is pretty strict
15:45:54 <bbailey> Joshue:  experts resonably disagree about when alt="" is appropriate
15:46:30 <bbailey> dm:  does not like failing photographs that don't meet wcag definition for "pure decoration" when they have alt=""
15:47:02 <bbailey> dm:  would like for wg members to have more agreement about when alt="" is okay
15:47:31 <bbailey> lgr:  sweeping sc might or might not work as well as categories
15:47:47 <bbailey> joshue:  will take multiple passes to find way to improve
15:48:22 <bbailey> lgr: captcha is there because wg did not feel we could exclude or rule out captchas
15:48:54 <bbailey> joshue: captcha issue is still significant, but some improvements are live
15:49:05 <bbailey> lgr:  need to document more techniques
15:49:22 <bbailey> joshue:  looking for voluteer to lead
15:49:44 <bbailey> kathy and david would be willing to help
15:50:07 <bbailey> joshue will contribute too
15:50:24 <bbailey> joshue suggest starting page on wiki
15:50:49 <bbailey> ACTION: David to open wiki page for captcha
15:50:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-264 - Open wiki page for captcha [on David MacDonald - due 2014-07-15].
15:51:24 <bbailey> joshue:  feels like captcha is a bit of pass
15:51:25 <Joshue> zakim, next item
15:51:25 <Zakim> agendum 4. "New SC Walkthrough Survey:" taken up [from Joshue]
15:51:44 <AWK> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SC1_2_1_July2014/
15:52:05 <bbailey> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SC1_2_1_July2014/results
15:52:28 <bbailey> lgr:  see comments, phrasing awkward
15:52:36 <bbailey> bruce concurs
15:52:54 <bbailey> lgr:  overlaps with 1.1.1
15:53:09 <bbailey> lgr:  might be better to tie them together
15:53:21 <Joshue> zakim, next item
15:53:21 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Final pass to resolve any remaining comments on WCAG-EM pre publication." taken up [from Joshue]
15:53:26 <Joshue> zakim, next item
15:53:26 <Zakim> agendum 5 was just opened, Joshue
15:53:27 <bbailey> joshue:  please add comments to survey, open until tomorrow
15:53:31 <Joshue> zakim, next item
15:53:31 <Zakim> agendum 5 was just opened, Joshue
15:53:36 <Joshue> zakim, close ite,m
15:53:36 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close ite,m', Joshue
15:53:37 <Joshue> zakim, close item
15:53:37 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', Joshue
15:53:51 <Joshue> agenda?
15:54:05 <shadi> zakim, close agendum 5
15:54:05 <Zakim> agendum 5, Final pass to resolve any remaining comments on WCAG-EM pre publication., closed
15:54:07 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:54:07 <Zakim> 6. Introduction of accessibility support database to the WCAG group (Shadi) [from Joshue]
15:54:23 <Joshue> zakim, take up item 7
15:54:23 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Comments needing responses https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Comments_Needing_Responses" taken up [from Joshue]
15:54:32 <bbailey> Joshue, leaving accessiblity DB for next week
15:55:04 <bbailey> Call for volunteers on itemes needing response
15:55:56 <bbailey> No volunteers at moment...
15:56:14 <MichaelC> ack me
15:56:58 <bbailey> Chair discuss w/ MC protocol for pressing volunteers...
15:57:35 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20140306/2939
15:57:44 <Zakim> -Kathy_Wahlbin
15:57:46 <bbailey> MC:  Can dismiss, but don't want to
15:57:49 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/NOTE-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20140306/
15:58:10 <bbailey> These are public comments, we cannot really just ignore
15:58:16 <MichaelC> ack me
15:58:29 <jon_avila> q+
15:58:41 <Joshue> ack Jon
15:58:45 <bbailey> MC:  People that initiate question should not take lead for response
15:59:16 <bbailey> Disuss isse 2939, is this a real issue?
15:59:27 <bbailey> Is it particular to HTML 5?
15:59:52 <bbailey> Commenter asks about guidence for registration and trademark
16:00:06 <AWK> q+
16:00:12 <bbailey> Discuss around "equivalent purpose"
16:00:29 <bbailey> Is RM or TM necessary?
16:00:48 <bbailey> Joshue:  Preference to leave to author
16:01:08 <Loretta> q+
16:01:20 <bbailey> David_M: Comes from internal discussions at commenters office
16:01:36 <Joshue> ack awk
16:01:57 <Loretta> q-
16:01:59 <bbailey> DM:  We don't provide specific guidence in other contexts, so why does WG have to decide for TM/RM?
16:02:04 <Ryladog> +1
16:02:14 <bbailey> AWK:  Content author should investigate and decide practice
16:02:28 <Joshue> ack Lor
16:02:36 <Joshue> ack Sail
16:03:08 <bbailey> Salish:  Discussion on RM applies to other text that might be repeated on site
16:03:58 <bbailey> Joshue suggests text for reply
16:04:20 <jamesn> q+ to say that often the "logo designer" has deliberately "obscured" the R symbol
16:04:29 <bbailey> Joshue:  The working group discussed this and it is largely at the discretion of the content owner how they wish to approach this, the onus is on the owner to do so.
16:04:44 <bbailey> AWK:  delete "largely"
16:04:51 <jamesn> http://www.oracle.com/index.html
16:05:00 <bbailey> Jame:  sometimes symbols are abstract
16:05:14 <jamesn> ack me
16:05:14 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to say that often the "logo designer" has deliberately "obscured" the R symbol
16:05:32 <Zakim> -Marc_Johlic
16:05:33 <bbailey> s/Jame/James/
16:05:37 <Zakim> + +1.727.480.aacc
16:06:19 <bbailey> awk:  can we resolve on call or are we making assignement?
16:06:40 <bbailey> DM:  add that this is beyond scope of WG
16:06:56 <AWK> How about: Thank you for your comment.  The working group discussed this and feels it is at the discretion of the content owner what text they feel is appropriate to serve as an equivalent for an image, including images which include trademarks, service marks, or other symbols.
16:06:58 <bbailey> joshue:  prefers his terse proposal
16:07:04 <marcjohlic> zakim, 727 is Marc_Johlic
16:07:04 <Zakim> sorry, marcjohlic, I do not recognize a party named '727'
16:07:25 <jamesn> zakim, aacc is Marc_Johlic
16:07:25 <Zakim> +Marc_Johlic; got it
16:07:25 <bbailey> DM: likes andrews response
16:08:02 <Ryladog> +1 to AWK response
16:08:13 <bbailey> DM: null alt would be problematic in this case
16:08:18 <Joshue> +1 also its better
16:08:46 <bbailey> q+ to check issue number
16:09:03 <bbailey> DM:  our definition provide alot of room
16:09:20 <Loretta> There are circumstances when it would be appropriate to include the trademark information and other circumstances where it would not be necessary.
16:09:22 <bbailey> Katie:  should include reference back to wcag defintion
16:09:45 <AWK> We are discussing https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/NOTE-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20140306/2938
16:10:11 <David> How about: Thank you for your comment. The working group discussed this and feels it is at the discretion of the content owner what text they feel is appropriate to serve as an equivalent for an image within the context of the WCAG definition of Equivelent Purporse., including images which include trademarks, service marks, or other symbols.
16:10:26 <bbailey> salish:  everything we discuss in context of wcag, so thats pretty clearly implied
16:11:28 <bbailey> awk and david discuss edits
16:11:56 <bbailey> lgr:  may want to add that we do not have yes/no anwers to question
16:13:11 <bbailey> awk: adds sentence addressing lgr suggestion
16:13:37 <bbailey> working on edit live, lc tracker not being very responsive
16:14:44 <bbailey> discuss exact phrasing...
16:14:55 <bbailey> q-
16:14:56 <Joshue> zakim, bb
16:14:56 <Joshue> ack bb
16:14:57 <Zakim> I don't understand 'bb', Joshue
16:15:01 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
16:15:01 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
16:15:01 <AWK> There are undoubtedly circumstances when it would be appropriate to include specific information about a symbol and other circumstances where it would not be necessary, but it is up to the content owner to investigate any legal or other requirements and evaluate the appropriate course of action.
16:15:10 <bbailey> salish:  suggest "context specific"
16:15:37 <Zakim> +Cooper
16:16:03 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
16:16:18 <bbailey> discuss "appropriate couse of action"
16:16:42 <David> There are undoubtedly circumstances when it would be appropriate to include specific information about a symbol and other circumstances where it would not be necessary, but it is up to the content owner to investigate any legal or other requirements and evaluate the appropriate interpretation of Equivalent Purpose.
16:16:56 <Ryladog> Ryladog has joined #wai-wcag
16:17:29 <AWK> Thank you for your comment.  The working group discussed this and feels it is at the discretion of the content owner what text they feel is appropriate to serve the equivalent purpose for an image, including images which include trademarks, service marks, or other symbols.
16:17:35 <AWK> There are undoubtedly circumstances when it would be appropriate to include specific information about a symbol and other circumstances where it would not be necessary, but it is up to the content owner to investigate any legal or other requirements and evaluate the appropriate interpretation of equivalent purpose.
16:18:00 <bbailey> awk:  if we agree, accept edit as propose, but not accept commenters concern
16:18:33 <bbailey> People report having some problems with connectivity...
16:19:08 <jamesn> +1
16:19:12 <bbailey> AWK:  reads his edit aloud
16:19:42 <bbailey> ACTION:  Accept 2938 as proposed
16:19:42 <trackbot> Error finding 'Accept'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/users>.
16:19:42 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #WAI-WCAG
16:20:05 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/NOTE-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20140306/
16:20:16 <jon_avila> https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20140306/2939
16:20:22 <bbailey> https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/NOTE-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20140306/2939
16:20:55 <Zakim> -shadi
16:21:08 <bbailey> RESOLUTION:  Accept 2938 as proposed
16:21:08 <Joshue> zakim, agenda?
16:21:08 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
16:21:09 <Zakim> 6. Introduction of accessibility support database to the WCAG group (Shadi) [from Joshue]
16:21:09 <Zakim> 7. Comments needing responses https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Comments_Needing_Responses [from Joshue]
16:21:09 <Zakim> 8. New Survey: [from Joshue]
16:21:51 <Joshue> zakim, take up item 8
16:21:51 <Zakim> agendum 8. "New Survey:" taken up [from Joshue]
16:22:03 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/9thJuly2014/
16:22:16 <Zakim> -Marc_Johlic
16:22:27 <AWK> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/9thJuly2014/results
16:22:52 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:23:03 <shadi> zakim, ipcaller is me
16:23:03 <Zakim> +shadi; got it
16:23:08 <shadi> zakim, ipcaller is me
16:23:08 <Zakim> sorry, shadi, I do not recognize a party named 'ipcaller'
16:23:10 <bbailey> Proposal from Alistar
16:24:11 <bbailey> zakim, make minutes
16:24:11 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes', bbailey
16:24:30 <bbailey> rrs, make minutes
16:24:34 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
16:24:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/08-wai-wcag-minutes.html MichaelC
16:24:46 <bbailey> Joshue:  important infomation about techniques
16:25:17 <bbailey> Proposal WG make at last meeting two weeks ago
16:25:37 <bbailey> MC:  adding expanded disclaimer to top of each technique page
16:25:56 <bbailey> AWK: reads comments from surveys
16:26:18 <bbailey> lgr (from survey):  I won't block this but feel that our experience with adding boilerplate of this type to the beginnings of pages and sections is not that people are more likely to read it (they still skip over it), but that they have a harder time finding the information about the technique itself. I'm fine with this wording, but would rather see it replace the paragraph at the bottom,...
16:26:21 <bbailey> ...instead of being added at the top.
16:26:31 <bbailey> tim boladn:  agree with putting a link to explanatory text at the bottom
16:26:32 <jon_avila> +1
16:26:43 <bbailey> bruce:  I still prefer having the disclaimer stay at the bottom. We can’t make people read, and putting it at the top does not change that. But this a preference, not something I cannot live with.
16:26:56 <bbailey> MC:  agrees, but thinks EO will not agree
16:27:02 <bbailey> LGR:  need to decide
16:27:24 <bbailey> Joshue:  does not like lots of stuff at top
16:27:32 <David> +1 to all our thoughts
16:27:37 <bbailey> Wording is good, but leads to text blindness
16:28:01 <bbailey> mc:  outlines mechanism to resolve
16:28:21 <bbailey> mc:  needs to coordinate through director (judy)
16:28:38 <bbailey> mc: other option is to accept for now, take up next round if we like
16:28:59 <bbailey> mc: push back now will delay publication
16:29:04 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
16:29:04 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
16:29:29 <bbailey> DM:  trying to take back preliminary approval will be awkward
16:29:34 <Joshue> +q
16:29:47 <bbailey> awk: reminds us that we already had joint meeting on this
16:30:25 <Joshue> ack me
16:30:48 <bbailey> mc: we met informally, we did not really object
16:31:22 <bbailey> mc: david metaphor cuts both ways
16:31:22 <bbailey> it may be harder to retract edit than to retract concensus
16:31:31 <bbailey> mc: group needs to decide
16:32:20 <bbailey> mc: may be better opportunity to revisit as significant reorganize is anticipated
16:32:32 <bbailey> mc: question of net benefit depends who you ask
16:32:50 <bbailey> mc: yes, extra text is a burden
16:32:58 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
16:35:23 <Zakim> -Sailesh_Panchang
16:36:01 <bbailey> mc:  but EO would probably argue that ommiting text has larger cost
16:36:01 <bbailey> joshue:  all folks on call made similar comments
16:36:01 <bbailey> awk: if we want to keep at bottom, can we defer to judy?
16:36:01 <Sailesh> Sailesh has left #wai-wcag
16:36:03 <bbailey> mc:  doesn't think judy will want to decide, she will want concensus from both groups
16:36:03 <bbailey> joshue:  pushing back publication more harmful than top of pages being text heavy
16:36:03 <bbailey> awk:  can we just delay this change rather than delay publication?
16:37:00 <bbailey> mc:  attempts to publish without this resolved is likely to create work, especially for chairs
16:37:02 <bbailey> joshue:  comes down to least bad
16:37:26 <bbailey> joshue:  we all agree with text, concern is if added boiler plate is net gain
16:38:03 <bbailey> mc:  is there a net cost?
16:38:09 <bbailey> mc:  Worked to keep paragraph short.  Cost of keeping is low.
16:38:40 <bbailey> mc:  Cost of fighting is high (delays publication).
16:39:15 <bbailey> mc:  Could also use added boiler plate as additional motivation to revisit overall formating.
16:39:58 <bbailey> joshue:  New boiler plate at top seems less disruptive than working on this more.
16:40:28 <bbailey> joshue:  Seems to be a bit of a patch, need to revisit whole approach of document.
16:43:15 <bbailey> aside to reconfirm that w3 site is having issues...
16:43:15 <bbailey> mc:  Construction work at MIT !
16:43:15 <bbailey> mc:  MIT larger IT folks deny there is a problem
16:43:17 <bbailey> RESOLUTION:  EO proposal for LC-2895 and Updated Technique July 9th 2014
16:43:56 <bbailey> Chairs asked to convey WG member concerns.
16:44:40 <Loretta> I need to go, Bye!
16:44:56 <Zakim> -Loretta
16:45:00 <Zakim> -Joshue
16:45:01 <Zakim> -Andrew_Kirkpatrick
16:45:01 <Zakim> -shadi
16:45:02 <Zakim> -Kenny
16:45:04 <Zakim> -jon_avila
16:45:04 <Zakim> -Katie_Haritos-Shea
16:45:04 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
16:45:06 <Zakim> -Cooper
16:45:24 <bbailey> rss agent, make minutes
16:45:30 <bbailey> rssagent, make minutes
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17:05:02 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Bruce_Bailey, in WAI_WCAG()11:00AM
17:05:02 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has ended
17:05:02 <Zakim> Attendees were Joshue, David_MacDonald, +1.617.766.aaaa, Sailesh_Panchang, Bruce_Bailey, Michael_Cooper, Kenny, Andrew_Kirkpatrick, +1.571.389.aabb, jon_avila, Loretta,
17:05:02 <Zakim> ... Kathy_Wahlbin, Marc_Johlic, shadi, Katie_Haritos-Shea, James_Nurthen, +1.727.480.aacc, Cooper
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