14:59:30 RRSAgent has joined #html-media
14:59:30 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/07/08-html-media-irc
14:59:32 RRSAgent, make logs public
14:59:32 Zakim has joined #html-media
14:59:34 Zakim, this will be 63342
14:59:34 ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:59:35 Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
14:59:35 Date: 08 July 2014
15:00:27 zakim, who is on the phone?
15:00:29 HTML_WG()11:00AM has not yet started, paulc
15:00:29 On IRC I see RRSAgent, paulc, jdsmith, geguchi, glenn, trackbot
15:01:31 jamil has joined #html-media
15:02:14 pal has joined #html-media
15:02:32 ddorwin has joined #html-media
15:02:50 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Jul/0001.html
15:03:06 BobLund has joined #html-media
15:04:12 zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:12 HTML_WG()11:00AM has not yet started, paulc
15:04:14 On IRC I see BobLund, ddorwin, pal, jamil, Zakim, RRSAgent, paulc, jdsmith, geguchi, glenn, trackbot
15:04:23 davide1 has joined #html-media
15:04:24 trackbot, start meeting
15:04:26 RRSAgent, make logs public
15:04:28 Zakim, this will be 63342
15:04:28 ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start 4 minutes ago
15:04:29 Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
15:04:29 Date: 08 July 2014
15:05:04 zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:04 HTML_WG()11:00AM has not yet started, paulc
15:05:06 On IRC I see davide1, BobLund, ddorwin, pal, jamil, Zakim, RRSAgent, paulc, jdsmith, geguchi, glenn, trackbot
15:05:57 zakim, pick a victim
15:05:57 sorry, glenn, I don't know what conference this is
15:06:05 zakim, this is 6334
15:06:05 sorry, glenn, I do not see a conference named '6334' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:06:10 zakim, this is 63342
15:06:11 ok, glenn; that matches HTML_WG()11:00AM
15:06:16 zakim, pick a victim
15:06:18 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose +1.425.936.aacc
15:06:28 +davide
15:06:55 zakim, who is on the phone?
15:06:55 On the phone I see +1.415.832.aaaa, [Microsoft], +1.720.897.aabb, [Microsoft.a], pal, +1.425.936.aacc, ReimundoGarcia, davide
15:07:15 adrianba has joined #html-media
15:07:18 zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
15:07:18 +paulc; got it
15:07:31 zakim, [Microsoft] is jdsmith
15:07:31 +jdsmith; got it
15:07:37 zakim, aabb is me
15:07:37 +glenn; got it
15:07:43 zakim, aacc is me
15:07:43 +ddorwin; got it
15:07:55 +[Microsoft]
15:08:03 zakim, [Microsoft] is me
15:08:03 +adrianba; got it
15:08:26 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Jul/0001.html
15:08:36 scribenick: ddorwin
15:09:25 +BobLund
15:09:33 topic: EME bugs
15:09:36 http://tinyurl.com/7tfambo
15:09:45 zakim, 01+1.415.832.aaaa01 is me
15:09:45 sorry, geguchi, I do not recognize a party named '01+1.415.832.aaaa01'
15:09:52 20 open bugs
15:10:07 s/20 open bugs/paulc: 20 open bugs/
15:10:44 pualc: we have closed 7 bugs since June 23rd
15:10:58 … That's pretty good progress.
15:11:14 paulc: Suggested bugs from editors in 5 and 6
15:11:28 topic: New Bugs
15:11:31 Bug 26207 - Provide a way to check system capabilities required for UHD playback
15:11:45 pladd has joined #html-media
15:11:55 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26207
15:11:59 pualc: This bug was opened up from the bottom of another bug.
15:12:09 History: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24873#c15
15:12:11 … from 24873
15:13:04 See https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26207#c1 for new input
15:13:21 jdsmith: I created this bug per the discussion on the last call before the holidays.
15:13:44 … We believe there is a need to identify capabilities of systems to some degree so there can be a smooth experience with UHD content.
15:13:56 … Specific requirements like offloading of decryption and media pipeline.
15:14:27 … Typical scenario would be to try to play UHD content and fall back. Would like a way to check UHD capabilities on the device.
15:14:49 q+
15:14:52 … There is the |capabilities| string today, but it would require agreement on strings
15:15:23 … Other options include pre-checking license or checking capabilities - this is the one that is covered in the first comment.
15:15:43 … Check system capabilities and media parameters. Proposed a dictionary at the bottom.
15:15:55 … Really there for discussion.
15:16:01 ack glenn
15:16:32 glenn: 1. This feels very orthogonal to EME. 2. We have something called Media Queries - both CSS and API.
15:16:44 q+
15:16:49 jdsmith: I agree that some of these are orthogonal - not all of them are.
15:16:51 ack bob
15:17:24 BobLund: Jerry, are you concerned about the case where platform supports UHD but will not support playback of encrypted UHD?
15:17:49 jdsmith: That is considered.
15:18:10 jernoble has joined #html-media
15:18:14 BobLund: I tend to agree with Glenn that capable of playing UHD is orthogonal.
15:18:35 jdsmith: I would focus on the robustness aspect for our task force.
15:18:40 Please respond to https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26207#c1
15:18:56 paulc: Glenn and BobLund, please reply to the bug.
15:19:27 topic: Bug 25896 - Why is EME creating new DOMException subclasses?
15:19:30 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25896
15:19:44 See https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25896#c6
15:19:58 paulc: A couple of comments from Jerry & Anne that I think are at the heart.
15:20:41 jdsmith: The current MediaKeyError contains a numeric error code that is key system specific and our preference is to keep it.
15:20:52 … The comment back is that we should be using exception message.
15:21:05 See Anne's reply: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25896#c7
15:21:07 … I did not see an option in DOMException that supports numeric error code.
15:21:25 … I had proposed adding a numeric field on MediaKeySession.
15:21:29 q+
15:21:42 paulc: Is Anne saying don't have a separate numeric code - put it in the string?
15:21:53 jdsmith: That's my interpretation.
15:22:05 ack ad
15:23:07 adrianba: I think there are two parts to this. The first is the use case for the system code. One use case is for logging where you want to make sure that when some type of exception gets thrown, there is some type of information you can return to the service so you can know what kind of issues your customers are running into. If that was the only use case, then including something in the message and saying you should send the message back would be one [CUT]
15:23:44 … The problem with that is if you want to have that information sent back to a service, presumably stored in a database, then extracted from the message, that's difficult if different implementations have different formats.
15:24:28 The second case, which may be less important with the goal of interoperability of EME, is that an application may know that there is a way of retrying or something for a specific key system.
15:24:58 … The use case is being able to know what part is the system code so you can do analysis.
15:25:36 … If you believe the use case, how do you expose it. I think Jerry's proposal to expose the value on the appropriate object is reasonable.
15:25:57 … You would get the DOMException with the value in the message then check the value on the object.
15:26:17 paulc: Anyone else want to comment, especially on the two use cases?
15:26:39 jdsmith: Adrian nailed my concerns exactly…. Overhead of parsing it out.
15:26:51 paulc: Why don't you make a proposal?
15:27:00 jdsmith: OK.
15:27:53 ddorwin: Should we have a separate bug with the proposal?
15:28:35 glenn: Note that DOM4 just went back to LC.
15:28:44 … so it will be hard to get changes there.
15:29:10 topic: Bug 18515 - Provide more details on behavior of the media element when the key for an encrypted block is not available
15:29:13 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18515
15:29:31 See Jerry's comment: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18515#c34
15:29:59 jdsmith: I think where we left this is that there was an option to use promises as a way to track states.
15:30:11 … I believe Mark gave a preference for using the waiting event.
15:30:49 markw has joined #html-media
15:30:51 … Unless there is a concern about using the waiting event. My view is that it is a positive because it's a logical indicator that the media element is waiting for something - in this case a key.
15:31:01 +MarkW
15:31:03 Previous discussion on Jun 17: http://www.w3.org/2014/06/17-html-media-minutes.html#item06
15:31:13 q+
15:31:16 Zakim, MarkW is me
15:31:16 +markw; got it
15:31:42 ack dd
15:31:50 ddorwin: I need to reread, but I think that's fine. Let's go with waiting. I think there might be some existing issues. If so, we'll need to address those.
15:32:54 … most of it is already implemented. There might be some minor issues. I will reread and update the bug.
15:33:06 paulc: Is it clear what's outstanding on this bug?
15:33:21 jdsmith: I think David wants to go back through and find any dangling issues before the bug is closed.
15:34:03 topic: Bug 17673 - Define Initialization Data for implementations that choose to support the ISO Base Media File Format
15:34:09 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17673
15:34:24 See https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17673#c65
15:34:39 paulc: Jerry's reply followed by David's.
15:34:59 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17673#c66
15:35:23 jdsmith: I think there is some text that I added… We did a review of the document internally and surfaced some aspects of where PSSH boxes might be encountered and added that. I think it's a point of disagreement on whether that should have been added.
15:36:02 … I was talking to Adrian, and I think it's clear that these are not key integration points with EME and CENC. I'm still having discussions, but we might be able to review them.
15:36:08 … I haven't seen David's comments.
15:36:27 topic: Bug 25920 - Remove extraction of default URL from createSession() algorithm
15:36:30 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25920#c6
15:36:45 paulc: We'll look at comment 6 followed by comment 7.
15:36:54 See David's reply: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25920#c7
15:37:45 jdsmith: I thought interop was the main issue, but it seems security is. I'm having trouble seeing the issues.
15:38:51 ddorwin: i think it is not a good web practice to take random media from the web
15:38:56 ... and extract instructions from them
15:39:08 ... that's essentially what we're doing by extracting the URL file
15:39:11 ... that seems wrong to me
15:39:21 ... i don't think this is responsible
15:39:47 ... i understand that URLs can be embedded in PSSH but I think this is for a different model where the media engine does the license acquisition
15:39:58 ... in EME the application needs the URL and we're providing it back
15:40:08 ... most people don't need this - the app knows the service
15:40:29 ... content federation seems like the use case and seems to be the most at risk
15:40:40 ... not a good practice and we don't have any good use cases
15:40:46 q+
15:40:48 ... this is removing one step from the algorithm
15:41:00 ack markw
15:41:03 ... think we should remove it and someone can file a bug to add it back if they want to
15:41:37 markw: If we remove this one step from the specification, is there anything left in the specification that would prevent a key system from populating the destinationURL field with data from initData.
15:42:56 ddorwin: It would be out of spec from the step that says pass null.
15:43:40 … I originally thought this was an option, but a single CDM doing so would cause problems for all applications.
15:43:59 markw: It seems like if you trust the CDM, then you trust the CDM to get this information.
15:44:50 q+
15:47:22 ack pal
15:48:28 ddorwin: It's not really a UA trust of CDM. The application has to trust the UA. Really, it's the media data that needs to be trusted, and it can't be.
15:48:42 pal: I don't see how a statement "don't do this" can be tested.
15:49:22 pal: in this particular case
15:49:31 markw: I don't have a problem removing this line. I think we should add a line to the security considerations section addressing this.
15:50:45 ddorwin: We don't need a negative statement. The step would say to pass NULL as the URL.
15:50:49 … Yes, that is hard to test.
15:51:06 jdsmith: I'll check with the DRM team here. It sounds like we're converging on removing.
15:51:07 markw_ has joined #html-media
15:51:17 topic: Bug 25866 - "needkey" event name is misleading
15:51:20 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25866#c3
15:51:56 q+
15:52:12 paulc: Any comments on "encryptedmedia".
15:52:14 ack dd
15:53:58 What about "Thing 1" or "Thing 2" in the spirit of Dr Seuss
15:54:36 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cat_in_the_Hat
15:54:53 ddorwin: Hoping for a more ideal name before changing. Not making the change yet to avoid churn. As we drive the bugs down, we'll pick the best option and implement it.
15:55:31 paulc: This bug is waiting for action .
15:55:43 topic: Bug 25268 - Reduce the burden on applications to deduplicate initData from many needkey events
15:55:47 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25268
15:56:03 See also: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Jun/0053.html
15:56:05 paulc: I wasn't quite sure how we were supposed to be dealing with this.
15:57:15 ddorwin: I implemented this bug per my suggestion. In the thread, there is disagreement whether it's useful.
15:57:36 … I later realized it doesn't solve the most common case.
15:58:02 … My proposal is to revert.
15:58:33 … The issue of reducing the burden still exists, but there were no other proposals.
15:59:07 paulc: Does anyone think we should not remove the solution based on the rational David provided in the bug.
15:59:13 … I don't here any objections.
15:59:56 … David, maybe you should make the change and leave the bug to say we're still waiting for a better solution.
16:00:03 topic: EME Use Cases Wiki
16:00:15 See Joe's action: http://www.w3.org/2014/06/24-html-media-minutes.html#item03
16:00:25 Carry over to next meeting.
16:00:32 paulc: Joe said he would send us an email when he's done that.
16:00:46 rrsagent, generate minutes
16:00:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/08-html-media-minutes.html paulc
16:01:36 paulc: markw, you took an action to see if there is someone that can help with tests. Have you made any progress?
16:01:50 markw: The person has been out of the office.
16:02:07 paulc: Please let me know by Friday so I can maybe put it on the agenda.
16:02:21 -adrianba
16:02:22 -ReimundoGarcia
16:02:26 -markw
16:02:26 paulc: Next meeting is next week.
16:02:27 -jdsmith
16:02:28 -davide
16:02:28 -BobLund
16:02:28 - +1.415.832.aaaa
16:02:30 -pal
16:02:32 -paulc
16:02:34 geguchi has left #html-media
16:02:37 -glenn
16:02:38 rrsagent, generate minutes
16:02:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/08-html-media-minutes.html ddorwin
16:03:13 s/Any comments on "encryptedmedia"./Any comments on "encryptedmedia"?/
16:03:34 s/help with tests/help with MSE tests/
16:04:19 -ddorwin
16:04:20 HTML_WG()11:00AM has ended
16:04:20 Attendees were +1.415.832.aaaa, +1.720.897.aabb, pal, +1.425.936.aacc, ReimundoGarcia, davide, paulc, jdsmith, glenn, ddorwin, adrianba, BobLund, markw
16:05:17 list attendees
16:05:25 zakim, list attendees
16:05:25 sorry, ddorwin, I don't know what conference this is
16:05:42 s/list attendees//
16:05:50 s/zakim, list attendees//
16:05:55 rrsagent, generate minutes
16:05:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/08-html-media-minutes.html ddorwin
16:07:03 s/list attendees/ /
16:07:11 rrsagent, generate minutes
16:07:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/08-html-media-minutes.html ddorwin
16:08:20 s/list attendees/ /
16:08:28 rrsagent, generate minutes
16:08:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/08-html-media-minutes.html ddorwin
16:08:58 s/zakim, /""
16:09:06 rrsagent, generate minutes
16:09:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/08-html-media-minutes.html ddorwin
16:09:28 s/s/"" ///" "
16:09:36 rrsagent, generate minutes
16:09:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/08-html-media-minutes.html ddorwin
16:09:57 s/s\/"" \/\//" "
16:10:03 rrsagent, generate minutes
16:10:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/08-html-media-minutes.html ddorwin
16:10:51 davide has left #html-media
16:57:40 glenn has joined #html-media
17:55:41 glenn has joined #html-media
18:56:38 Zakim has left #html-media
18:56:49