18:50:56 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
18:50:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/07/08-aapi-irc
18:50:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
18:50:58 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
18:51:00 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:51:00 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
18:51:01 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:51:01 <trackbot> Date: 08 July 2014
18:52:34 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has now started
18:52:40 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
18:52:49 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:52:49 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
18:52:58 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:52:58 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:53:07 <clown> chair:  Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:53:15 <clown> agenda: this
18:53:23 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1115: (All) Review new text: MUST NOT expose custom role in MSAA.
18:53:30 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-980: (David) Define mappings for managed aria related states.
18:53:37 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1104: (Cynthia) UIA mapping for aria-describedby in 5.5.1
18:53:53 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1372: (Cynthia)  Create test case for rowgroup role.
18:54:00 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1373 (Cynthia): Create test case for explicit/implicit mix of aria-posinset and aria-setsize.
18:54:08 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1450 (Joseph):  Provide link to UIA Express in section 3 of caam.
18:54:18 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1445: (Cynthia) UIA mapping for role presentation in tables and lists.
18:54:25 <clown> agenda+ be done.
18:55:45 <clown> agenda 3 = ACTION-1104: (Cynthia) UIA mapping for aria-describedby in 5.5.1 table where referenced accessible is not in the a11y tree.
18:56:31 <clown> zakim, save agenda
18:56:38 <Zakim> ok, clown, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2014/07/08-aapi-agenda.rdf
18:56:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/08-aapi-minutes.html clown
18:57:28 <davidb> davidb has joined #aapi
18:58:04 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
19:00:05 <davidb> i'll be a bit late, someone is squatting in my phone rom
19:00:06 <davidb> room
19:00:17 <janina_> janina_ has joined #aapi
19:00:46 <Zakim> +??P1
19:00:53 <janina_> zakim, ??P1 is me
19:00:53 <Zakim> +janina_; got it
19:02:13 <joanie> scribe: Joanmarie_Diggs
19:03:07 <Zakim> + +1.416.848.aaaa
19:03:23 <davidb> Zakim, aaaa is David_Bolter
19:03:23 <Zakim> +David_Bolter; got it
19:03:43 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa
19:04:32 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
19:04:32 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ACTION-1115: (All) Review new text: MUST NOT expose custom role in MSAA." taken up [from clown]
19:04:46 <clown> action-1115?
19:04:46 <trackbot> action-1115 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Find reference in MSAA spec that says you can't put anything in the role property except roles that are defined by the MSAA spec -- due 2014-07-08 -- PENDINGREVIEW
19:04:46 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1115
19:04:59 <joanie> JS: I had to make a change to the document so I marked the action pending review.
19:05:05 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
19:05:07 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#mapping_role
19:05:15 <joanie> JS: The above URL gets you close.
19:05:24 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
19:05:30 <joanie> JS: In section 5.4, look for item 5
19:05:31 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
19:05:31 <Zakim> ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
19:05:47 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
19:06:02 <joanie> JS: The MSAA bullet says "not supported". I added
19:06:44 <joanie> JS: a link to the document and this statement
19:06:46 <clown> User agents MUST NOT expose a custom role in MSAA's accRole property.
19:07:10 <joanie> JS: David, that is the law from Microsoft
19:07:17 <joanie> DB: I will talk this over with Alex
19:07:29 <joanie> JS: So we'll leave this pending review?
19:07:43 <joanie> JS: It seems that the documentation is pretty clear.
19:07:57 <joanie> RS: That has been violated for decades.
19:08:58 <joanie> DB: I've been told by some of the Windows AT vendors that if we take this out, it won't break things.
19:09:13 <joanie> DB: So maybe IA2 has made this doable.
19:10:02 <joanie> JS: What this is about is if you have a WAI ARIA role string that doesn't match the API, and you have a way to expose it, you should do so. But MSAA doesn't have such a way.
19:10:16 <joanie> DB: I'd prefer the MUST NOT not be there.
19:10:55 <joanie> JS: Cynthia has stated that it is not a SHOULD, but I'd like her opinion.
19:11:08 <joanie> DB: I have a patch that removes it. But I want to check with Alex first.
19:13:17 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 2
19:13:17 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ACTION-980: (David) Define mappings for managed aria related states." taken up [from clown]
19:13:26 <clown> action-980?
19:13:27 <trackbot> action-980 -- David Bolter to Define mappings for managed aria related states: aria-setsize, aria-posinset, arla-level, focused, focusable with reference to section 5.5 bullet 1 of the UAIG. -- due 2014-07-01 -- OPEN
19:13:27 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/980
19:13:34 <joanie> DB: I'm aware of this item.
19:14:15 <joanie> DB: I have not yet had the opportunity to do it and would like a little more time.
19:14:45 <joanie> JS: This is associated with ARIA 1.1, but I don't see any issue associated with it.
19:15:37 <clown> zakim, agenda?
19:15:37 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
19:15:38 <Zakim> 1. ACTION-1115: (All) Review new text: MUST NOT expose custom role in MSAA. [from clown]
19:15:38 <Zakim> 2. ACTION-980: (David) Define mappings for managed aria related states. [from clown]
19:15:38 <Zakim> 3. ACTION-1104: (Cynthia) UIA mapping for aria-describedby in 5.5.1 table where referenced accessible is not in the a11y tree.
19:15:38 <Zakim> 4. ACTION-1372: (Cynthia)  Create test case for rowgroup role. [from clown]
19:15:40 <Zakim> 5. ACTION-1373 (Cynthia): Create test case for explicit/implicit mix of aria-posinset and aria-setsize. [from clown]
19:15:40 <Zakim> 6. ACTION-1450 (Joseph):  Provide link to UIA Express in section 3 of caam. [from clown]
19:15:40 <Zakim> 7. ACTION-1445: (Cynthia) UIA mapping for role presentation in tables and lists. [from clown]
19:15:40 <Zakim> 8. be done. [from clown]
19:15:43 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 6
19:15:43 <Zakim> agendum 6. "ACTION-1450 (Joseph):  Provide link to UIA Express in section 3 of caam." taken up [from clown]
19:15:53 <clown> action-1450?
19:15:53 <trackbot> action-1450 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Provide link to uia express for accessibility api reference in section 3 of caam -- due 2014-07-08 -- PENDINGREVIEW
19:15:53 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1450
19:16:13 <joanie> JS: Related URLs are
19:16:22 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#intro_aapi
19:17:05 <joanie> JS: The link to UIA Express has been added in section 1.1 Accessibility APIs
19:17:34 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#glossary
19:17:40 <joanie> JS: I should contact the people who maintain the bibliographic references and ask them to add this one.
19:18:04 <joanie> JS: The first term in the glossary is the Accessibility APIs. So I added a reference there too.
19:18:16 <cyns> cyns has joined #aapi
19:18:48 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
19:19:04 <cyns> zakim, microsoft has me
19:19:04 <Zakim> +cyns; got it
19:19:17 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#glossary
19:21:00 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#intro_aapi
19:21:21 <joanie> CS: That looks fine.
19:21:33 <joanie> JS: We can close this action.
19:21:47 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
19:21:47 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ACTION-1115: (All) Review new text: MUST NOT expose custom role in MSAA." taken up [from clown]
19:22:04 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#mapping_role
19:22:31 <joanie> JS: (Reviews item 1 with Cynthia)
19:23:28 <joanie> RS: I suspect the reason is the custom roles don't get mapped over correctly, right?
19:23:42 <joanie> s/item 1 with Cynthia/item 1/
19:23:53 <joanie> CS: This has never been supported.
19:24:11 <joanie> DB: Alex and I would prefer SHOULD NOT rather than MUST NOT.
19:24:20 <joanie> DB: And the reality is that only Firefox is doing this, right?
19:24:28 <joanie> JS: What does Chrome do on Windows?
19:24:48 <joanie> DB: I'm not sure, though they tend to be consistent with what Firefox does.
19:25:14 <joanie> JS: Has this hack ever broken anything?
19:25:20 <joanie> DB: I don't believe so.
19:25:38 <joanie> CS: I need to run this by some people. My preference is MUST NOT.
19:25:50 <joanie> DB: If there is a technical reason, then we should keep the MUST NOT.
19:25:57 <joanie> CS: MSAA is deprecated.
19:26:13 <joanie> JS: I will leave this open.
19:26:58 <joanie> CS: You can give me an action to run the MUST NOT vs SHOULD NOT by people.
19:27:27 <clown> ACTION:  Cynthia to check with IE team whether statement re: ACTION-1115, "User agents MUST NOT expose a custom role in MSAA's accRole property." can be a SHOULD NOT.
19:27:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1478 - Check with ie team whether statement re: action-1115, "user agents must not expose a custom role in msaa's accrole property." can be a should not. [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2014-07-15].
19:27:41 <clown> action-1478?
19:27:41 <trackbot> action-1478 -- Cynthia Shelly to Check with ie team whether statement re: action-1115, "user agents must not expose a custom role in msaa's accrole property." can be a should not. -- due 2014-07-15 -- OPEN
19:27:41 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1478
19:28:35 <joanie> Zakim take up item 3
19:28:41 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 3
19:28:41 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ACTION-1104: (Cynthia) UIA mapping for aria-describedby in 5.5.1 table where referenced accessible is not in the a11y tree." taken up
19:28:52 <clown> action-1104?
19:28:52 <trackbot> action-1104 -- Cynthia Shelly to Define what the accessibility API mapping is for UIA on aria-describedby in section 5.5.1 table when the element does not exist in the accessibility tree such as when css: display:none applies -- due 2014-06-30 -- OPEN
19:28:53 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1104
19:29:58 <joanie> CS: I will spend some time on actions in the next couple of weeks.
19:30:18 <joanie> RS: Thank you for updating the focus section so that it's more generic.
19:30:59 <joanie> JS: I am making that whole section more generic.
19:31:04 <joanie> RS: This is good.
19:31:17 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 4
19:31:17 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ACTION-1372: (Cynthia)  Create test case for rowgroup role." taken up [from clown]
19:31:26 <clown> action-1372?
19:31:26 <trackbot> action-1372 -- Cynthia Shelly to Create a test case, if there is none, to test the rowgroup role -- due 2014-07-01 -- OPEN
19:31:26 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1372
19:32:00 <clown> issue-635?
19:32:00 <trackbot> issue-635 -- Determine if uaig mappings for rowgroup are correct -- open
19:32:00 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/635
19:32:03 <joanie> JS: This is related to issue-635
19:32:27 <joanie> JS: We needed a test case specifically for rowgroup so we can customize the mappings and be sure they are right.
19:33:03 <joanie> CS: I will work on this soon.
19:33:50 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23
19:34:41 <joanie> Topic: Action 967
19:34:43 <clown> action-967?
19:34:43 <trackbot> action-967 -- Janina Sajka to work with Rich to work with DAISY establish a structural navigation model for ARIA landmarks related to comment 362 -- due 2014-01-08 -- OPEN
19:34:43 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/967
19:36:05 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/details?comment_id=362
19:36:33 <joanie> Janina: I think this will be covered by the new roles which will be discussed by the epub group.
19:37:12 <joanie> RS: All the roles related to ebooks will be delivered through the ARIA role attribute.
19:37:27 <joanie> JS: So this issue can be closed as being taken up by epub.
19:37:50 <joanie> Janina: They really want support in the HTML validator.
19:38:12 <joanie> RS: We have a fallback mechanism in the role attributes, so if it's not something the browser knows about it's not terrible.
19:38:31 <joanie> Janina: But I think they still want the validator to pass and flag these roles.
19:38:41 <joanie> Janina: And I don't think this is automatic.
19:38:56 <joanie> (Group agrees to close this)
19:39:28 <joanie> Topic: Action 1280
19:39:33 <clown> action-1280?
19:39:33 <trackbot> action-1280 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Take a first pass at pulling aria core implementation out of aria UAIG -- due 2013-10-25 -- OPEN
19:39:33 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1280
19:39:55 <joanie> RS: We already have a first draft.
19:40:06 <joanie> JS: And I'm already working on the keyboard nav and focus section.
19:40:15 <joanie> Janina: IndieUI-ify it.
19:40:25 <joanie> JS: It's now closed.
19:40:34 <joanie> RS: I'm writing the SVG2 mapping spec.
19:41:00 <joanie> JS: All the table entries now have IDs. But I don't think it happened in time for the heartbeat.
19:41:12 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23
19:41:20 <joanie> Topic: Other burning issues?
19:41:54 <clown> action-1258?
19:41:55 <trackbot> action-1258 -- Jon Gunderson to Write some uaig test cases and expected results starting with test case 102 and working backward -- due 2013-09-16 -- OPEN
19:41:55 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1258
19:42:02 <joanie> RS: Can we just close action 1258?
19:42:18 <joanie> JS: I think Jon did this with his big ramp up to running the test cases.
19:42:31 <joanie> JS: Closed.
19:42:51 <clown> action-980?
19:42:51 <trackbot> action-980 -- David Bolter to Define mappings for managed aria related states: aria-setsize, aria-posinset, arla-level, focused, focusable with reference to section 5.5 bullet 1 of the UAIG. -- due 2014-07-22 -- OPEN
19:42:51 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/980
19:42:51 <joanie> RS: We don't have action-980 done yet?
19:43:00 <joanie> DB: I think you are waiting on me for that one?
19:43:11 <joanie> JS: We just changed the due date.
19:43:22 <clown> action-1279?
19:43:22 <trackbot> action-1279 -- Shane McCarron to Talk to mobile manufacturers about how to include their apis -- due 2013-10-25 -- OPEN
19:43:22 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1279
19:43:27 <joanie> RS: Action 1279 is one we should really get started on.
19:43:35 <joanie> RS: We don't have any mobile API mappings.
19:43:40 <joanie> RS: This is really important.
19:43:54 <joanie> RS: I don't know if Shane is the right guy to have this.
19:44:16 <joanie> JS: It looks like this used to be associated with the spec, but James Craig seems to have moved it.
19:44:37 <joanie> RS: I think the person you might want to reach out to first is James Craig when he gets back from vacation.
19:44:56 <joanie> CS: And google?
19:45:03 <joanie> RS: Dominic would know the right person.
19:45:09 <joanie> CS: And BlackBerry?
19:45:30 <joanie> RS: Do you do anything different for mobile?
19:45:34 <joanie> CS: I would need to check.
19:45:44 <joanie> Janina: It's probably smart to list it regardless.
19:46:01 <joanie> RS: Larry should be pretty familiar with it since he worked on narrator for mobile.
19:46:22 <joanie> action-1320
19:46:22 <trackbot> action-1320 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Consider mapping the "offscreen" api properties in the situation of aria-hidden="false" on non-rendered elements. -- due 2014-12-23 -- OPEN
19:46:22 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1320
19:46:23 <clown> action-1320?
19:46:23 <trackbot> action-1320 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Consider mapping the "offscreen" api properties in the situation of aria-hidden="false" on non-rendered elements. -- due 2014-12-23 -- OPEN
19:46:23 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1320
19:46:44 <joanie> DB: This is pretty complex.
19:47:06 <joanie> JS: My impression from bugzilla discussions at Mozilla is that they might not change their minds.
19:47:31 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:47:34 <joanie> JS: I offered that whatever you do for offscreen could also be used for aria-hidden=false
19:47:46 <joanie> JS: But Alex didn't seem to want to do this.
19:48:02 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
19:48:18 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:48:18 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
19:48:33 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:48:33 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:48:40 <joanie> Topic: Alex will take over for Pete Brunet as IA2 maintainer.
19:48:48 <joanie> DB: And Alex would like more members.
19:49:00 <joanie> CS: Does this mean IA2 is in active development again?
19:49:04 <joanie> Group: Yes!
19:50:54 <joanie> (Group discusses the desire to have the Accessibility APIs converge)
19:51:02 <joanie> RS: ARIA 2 might be the right time to do this.
19:53:35 <clown> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jul/0007.html
19:54:28 <joanie> Topic: Why is there no checked state for radios in IE?
19:54:51 <joanie> BG: Describes what is in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jul/0007.html
19:54:58 <joanie> CS: That sounds like a bug.
19:55:08 <joanie> BG: I'll file it if you tell me where to do so.
19:56:36 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#keyboard-focus_tabindex
19:56:51 <joanie> Topic: Tab index value
19:56:56 <cyns> IE bugs go here http://connect.microsoft.com/ie
19:57:09 <joanie> RS: Tab index is read/write in HTML5.
19:57:17 <joanie> RS: I need to talk to Steve about this.
19:57:38 <joanie> JS: If you have rotating tabs, you might want to set the value to -1.
19:57:39 <clown> jQuery.attr ('tabindex', −1)
19:58:11 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
19:58:13 <Zakim> -David_Bolter
19:58:16 <Zakim> -Joanmarie_Diggs
19:58:17 <Zakim> -Bryan_Garaventa
19:58:24 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:58:26 <Zakim> -janina_
19:58:28 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
19:58:29 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has ended
19:58:29 <Zakim> Attendees were Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, janina_, +1.416.848.aaaa, David_Bolter, Bryan_Garaventa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, cyns
19:58:42 <joanie> who as aaaa?
19:59:39 <joanie> present+ Cynthia Shelly
19:59:49 <joanie> present+ Cynthia_Shelly
20:00:06 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:00:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/08-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:00:28 <joanie> present- Cynthia Shelly
20:00:36 <joanie> present- cyns
20:00:48 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:00:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/08-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:01:18 <joanie> present- 1.416.848.aaaa
20:01:26 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:01:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/08-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:02:09 <joanie> Zakim, part
20:02:09 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
20:02:17 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop