15:29:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
15:29:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/07/02-css-irc
15:29:33 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:29:33 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 31 minutes
15:29:37 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:30:17 <glazou> glazou has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0021.html
15:30:24 <glazou> glazou has left #css
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15:50:07 <glazou> hi fantasai
15:52:09 <glazou> Zakim, code?
15:52:09 <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
15:52:27 <glazou> ok plh
15:53:18 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:53:25 <Zakim> + +1.617.477.aaaa
15:53:26 <Zakim> - +1.617.477.aaaa
15:53:26 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
15:53:27 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.617.477.aaaa
15:53:44 <glazou> a short call for the MIT apparently :-)
15:55:15 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:55:22 <Zakim> +??P5
15:55:28 <Zakim> -??P5
15:55:29 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
15:55:29 <Zakim> Attendees were
15:55:32 <AH_Miller> AH_Miller has joined #CSS
15:56:19 <glazou> wow
15:56:24 <adenilson> adenilson has joined #css
15:56:32 <glazou> Orange says the phone number above is unreachable
15:57:08 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:57:16 <Zakim> + +33.1.34.51.aaaa
15:57:20 <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is me
15:57:20 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
15:57:34 <plh> plh has joined #css
15:57:44 <dael> dael has joined #css
15:58:32 <Zakim> +dauwhe
15:58:44 <Zakim> + +1.617.477.aabb
15:58:50 <fantasai> Zakim, aabb is fantasai
15:58:50 <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
15:58:55 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:59:10 <Zakim> +dael
15:59:15 <fantasai> ? from Antenna House?
15:59:21 <Zakim> +Stearns
15:59:39 <Zakim> +Lea
15:59:39 <murakami> murakami has joined #css
15:59:40 <glazou> fantasai, Alex Critchfield
15:59:43 <Zakim> +??P22
15:59:58 <fantasai> glazou, IRC nick?
16:00:10 <Zakim> +??P25
16:00:19 <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P25 is me
16:00:19 <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
16:00:34 <Zakim> + +1.240.421.aacc
16:00:45 <glazou> Zakim, ?P22 is adenilson
16:00:45 <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '?P22'
16:00:51 <bkardell_> bkardell_ has joined #css
16:00:53 <Zakim> +??P24
16:00:56 <glazou> Zakim, aacc is AH_Miller
16:00:56 <Zakim> +AH_Miller; got it
16:00:58 <alex_antennahouse> alex_antennahouse has joined #css
16:01:02 <abinader> abinader has joined #css
16:01:10 <alex_antennahouse> hello everyone
16:01:11 <glazou> Zakim, ??P22 is adenilson
16:01:12 <Zakim> +adenilson; got it
16:01:13 <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aadd
16:01:18 <fantasai> Zakim, [IPcaller] is alex_antennahouse
16:01:19 <Zakim> +alex_antennahouse; got it
16:01:21 <TabAtkins> zakim, aadd is me
16:01:21 <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
16:01:23 <murakami> Zakim, ??P24 is me
16:01:24 <Zakim> +murakami; got it
16:01:39 <Zakim> + +1.206.992.aaee
16:01:50 <MaRakow> Zakim, aaee is me
16:01:50 <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
16:02:04 <Zakim> +BrianKardell
16:02:16 <astearns> http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3
16:02:30 <astearns> TabAtkins: ^
16:02:36 <Zakim> +plinss
16:02:46 <glenn> glenn has joined #css
16:03:02 <koji> koji has joined #css
16:03:14 <TabAtkins> Danke, astearns
16:03:46 <SimonSapin> unfortunately http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3 has no equivalent for SIP
16:03:49 <Zakim> + +1.720.897.aaff
16:03:52 <glazou> right
16:04:03 <glenn> zakim, aaff is me
16:04:03 <Zakim> +glenn; got it
16:04:10 <tantek> +1 on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jun/0453.html
16:04:16 <dael> glazou: Let's start
16:04:39 <dael> glazou: First thing, before the extra items, I sent a message about the re-chartering
16:04:57 <dael> glazou: I remind you that both individual members and invited experts must rejoin.
16:05:09 <dael> glazou: YOu have 45 days or else you're removed automatically
16:05:11 <fantasai> tantek, ?
16:05:15 <dael> glazou: Any extra items to discuss?
16:05:24 <Zakim> + +1.631.398.aagg
16:05:26 <dael> Topic: CSS3 Text Issues
16:05:26 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jun/0439.html
16:05:30 <fantasai> tantek, nm
16:05:41 <dael> glazou: I think there's a message that fantasai sent from Jonathan Kew
16:05:56 <TabAtkins> Sorry, I was muted a second ago. Agenda+ for max/min-font-size?
16:05:56 <Zakim> + +1.415.231.aahh
16:06:01 <Rossen_> Rossen_ has joined #css
16:06:09 <koji> zakim, +1.415.231.aahh is me
16:06:09 <Zakim> +koji; got it
16:06:14 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
16:06:20 <dael> fantasai: Basically we have an issue on if we should display control characters. Currently browsers don't and this message argues we should to expose broken pages and get them fixed
16:06:24 <Zakim> +dbaron
16:06:36 <Zakim> +??P26
16:06:42 <dael> fantasai: koji and I don't have a strong opinion so we want working group opinions. If we make the change it will require a change to all impl
16:07:02 <abinader> Zakim, ??P26 is me
16:07:02 <Zakim> +abinader; got it
16:07:08 <dael> ??: Is this proposed as a style property?
16:07:16 <TabAtkins> s/??/glenn/
16:07:26 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:07:40 <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
16:07:40 <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
16:07:42 <dael> fantasai: We're not prop as a style prop. We don't see a use case for control, this is about default behaviour
16:08:00 <leaverou> isn’t this something that should be defined in the host language?
16:08:05 <dael> glenn: I would suggest a defaul of presenting control char is wrong. I think the author could choose to display
16:08:40 <dael> TabAtkins: The point of the thread was authors don't want diplay, they do it accidently. You never want control characters to display. There's silent data corruption because they're left accidently
16:08:45 <fantasai> leaverou, no, not really. If the host language wnats them to go away, it should preprocess them away. CSS is what says how text is displayed
16:09:03 <dael> TabAtkins: If the default stays as don't display, it doesn't solve the request and having an author able to choose doesn't help either.
16:09:13 <dael> glenn: For ex in unicode there's many control char...
16:09:17 <dael> fantasai: No.
16:09:25 <dael> TabAtkins: We're talking about the block of 32 after ascii
16:09:29 <fantasai> fantasai: default-ignorable characters are not affected
16:09:33 <dael> glenn: C1 controls only.
16:09:44 <dael> glenn: So there's no semantic controls assigned to those?
16:09:50 <dael> TabAtkins: Certainly not on the web.
16:09:59 <dael> TabAtkins: If they were havign them stay invisable isn't great.
16:10:12 <dael> glenn: So I wouldn't obj to the C1 char but it seems a special case.
16:10:31 <Zakim> -SimonSapin
16:10:38 <dael> TabAtkins: It is because all the others are marked by unicode to ignore. These aren't so at the moment by ignoring them we somewhat violating unicode.
16:10:55 <Zakim> +??P11
16:10:57 <dael> TabAtkins: Since other parts of the tech stack don't ignore them, but browsers do we should help them realize there was a mistake.
16:11:01 <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P11 is me
16:11:01 <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
16:11:25 <koji> I believe his proposal includes C0 too
16:11:47 <dael> glazou: Is there anything else to say about this? I'm a bit lost.
16:11:54 <dael> glenn: [reads koji comment]
16:12:08 <dael> fantasai: Includes all the characters that aren't default to ignore or CSS whitespace
16:12:21 <dael> glenn: Is there a default display for C1 control characters?
16:12:49 <dael> fantasai: No, but I think that we would say they must render some kind of glyph, be that a missing character glyph or the corrisponding symbol or what...
16:13:10 <dael> TabAtkins: As an ex my box right now renders c0 as their tiny name in a diagonal row across an m-box.
16:13:30 <dael> TabAtkins: Might be a special font. Browsers can have default fonts that render or they get a last resort character.
16:13:42 <dael> fantasai: Basically render and be treated as visible for render and line breaking
16:13:59 <dael> fantasai: Key thing is do we display or continue to ignore? I'd like to hear from broswers.
16:14:07 <dael> glenn: I think we should hear from unicode or i18n
16:14:12 <dael> fantasai: unicode says display
16:14:25 <SimonSapin> TabAtkins, Wikipedia uses these separate code points: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/block/control_pictures/list.htm
16:14:36 <dael> koji: I talked to unicode list and they said we should display in identities like URL and says the effects shouldn't applyt o CSS rendering
16:14:48 <dael> fantasai: We're a higher level protical so we can do what's appropriate.
16:14:52 <koji> http://unicode.org/pipermail/unicode/2014-July/000801.html
16:15:04 <dael> glenn: But if we think appropriate is the opposite of them, it's worht considering
16:15:16 <dael> fantasai: Any opinion from browser vendors? Do they need more time? Not care?
16:15:30 <dael> TabAtkins: As much as a represent a browser vendor, which is only slightly, I'm fine witht he change
16:15:36 <dael> fantasai: Do you want them to display?
16:15:55 <dael> TabAtkins: I'd rather have them display. Or be default ignorable so they're ignored by everything. This halfway is no good
16:15:59 <dael> fantasai: Microsoft?
16:16:06 <dael> Rossen_: I have to check with the font guy.
16:16:37 <dael> fantasai: Opinions for Apple or Mozilla? Opinion, more time?
16:16:55 <dael> dbaron: Jonathan works for us so I think that's a clear opinion. There might be other who disagree with him.
16:16:57 <dael> fantasai: But not you
16:17:08 <dael> dbaron: I don't have a trong opinion, but tend to agree as long as it works.
16:17:18 <dael> fantasai: Anything from Apple or Opera?
16:17:26 <dael> s/trong/strong
16:17:38 <fantasai> <silence]
16:17:39 <dael> glazou: Apperantly not.
16:18:49 <Zakim> +[Apple]
16:18:52 <dael> koji: On the unicode ML was that the spec said everything except default ignorable should be displayed visiable
16:18:53 <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
16:18:53 <Zakim> +hober; got it
16:19:05 <dael> koji: So if we go and display the discussion might not stop there and we'd need more
16:19:08 <dael> TabAtkins: What else?
16:19:15 <koji> http://www.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/DerivedCoreProperties.txt
16:19:31 <dael> koji: Unicode says desplay everything that isn't default ignore. If you look at ^ url you have the list of default ignorable
16:19:41 <fantasai> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/category/index.htm
16:19:49 <dael> koji: So characters with glyphs assigned, there's be plenty to display
16:19:55 <dael> TabAtkins: I thinkw e display those in chrome.
16:20:17 <dael> TabAtkins: We do unknown glyphs. Same for FFF.  sometimes there's a glyph in the corner.
16:20:26 <dael> glazou: Unless there's more to discuss, I'd like to move on
16:20:46 <dael> fantasai: My take-away is we'll change to say control characters are displayed unless mmicrosoft says otherwise. Is that correct?
16:20:50 <dael> group: yes
16:20:57 <dael> Topic: Flexbox Issues
16:21:03 <dael> glazou: There's 3 in the agenda
16:21:04 <fantasai> Since Apple and Opera have no opinion and Mozilla is strongly in favor
16:21:41 <dael> TabAtkins: First, in the last F2F we thought that phraseing abspos text with the position as a point vs as a box are eq. but they're not due to safe positioning
16:22:00 <dael> TabAtkins: If safe is on there's a difference between where it displays witht he old text and the current text using points to align.
16:22:21 <dael> TabAtkins: In the old text if the box was really big it would shift to the side, but now it stays truely centered.
16:22:57 <dael> TabAtkins: This might not be aproblem, we're not sure. We're brinigng up that there is a difference we didn't know about before. WE plan to review the abspos text in general and make it better, so we may review then
16:23:10 <dael> TabAtkins: We're just brining up that some change may be needed and need approval.
16:23:18 <dael> dbaron: So which way is the text and what's the planned change?
16:23:53 <dael> TabAtkins: We pos the child as it's the sole item in the flex and that gave us a box to position in. The new text was that the sttic pos should be a point and rephrase in terms of finding a point and aligning the abspos to that.
16:24:20 <dael> TabAtkins: b/c the old text honored safe align and the new doesn't, we're not sure which to handle and which we want to end up with in order to make sure it's specified clearly
16:24:32 <dael> TabAtkins: Right now the only definition is unclear about exactly what the static position is
16:24:44 <dael> Rossen_: So you're suggesting we need to clear up what the staticpos means?
16:25:11 <dael> TabAtkins: I think we'll need to do that unless fantasai included a simplier approach. It's a hey we'll need to revisit this as we narrow things down.
16:25:17 <dael> TabAtkins: Next issue
16:25:49 <dael> TabAtkins: This needs discussion. We disucessed that flex-basis: auto is odd because it overlaps with width so you have to say flex-basis: auto and width: auto
16:26:00 <fantasai> This is the issue : http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0008.html
16:26:03 <dael> TabAtkins: It's also wierd that computed and used of auto mean something different.
16:26:25 <dael> TabAtkins: We discussed renamining flex-basis: auto. WE provisionally are using main-size
16:26:42 <dael> TabAtkins: We're leaving the short hand as is because it's used to widely.
16:27:10 <dael> TabAtkins: So is the name change okay and does anyone have the ability to track what the actual usage of flex-basis: auto is and if it's paired with non-auto width
16:27:13 <Zakim> -abinader
16:27:37 <Zakim> - +1.631.398.aagg
16:27:51 <dael> TabAtkins: Right now chrome is showing a disterbingly high number. I think a lot of torotrials ignored our note not to use. Hopefully there's isn't much paired with non-auto width because that'st he realy problem.
16:28:12 <dael> TabAtkins: If anyone has a way to track this, that would be awesome. If not, we might just change and see how much breakage there is.
16:28:22 <dael> TabAtkins: Any thougths or suggestions better than main-size
16:28:29 <dael> Rossen_: This is in the current ED?
16:28:32 <dael> fantasai: Yeah.
16:28:39 <dael> Rossen_: I was looking at it and...
16:28:48 <Zakim> + +1.631.398.aaii
16:28:55 <Zakim> +??P17
16:29:03 <dael> TabAtkins: Do you see it now?
16:29:04 <abinader> Zakim, ??P17 is me
16:29:04 <Zakim> +abinader; got it
16:29:05 <dael> Rossen_: Yeah.
16:29:11 <dael> Rossen_: That sounds pretty good.
16:29:13 <dael> TabAtkins: Okay.
16:29:18 <dbaron> I'm happy with the change assuming it sticks.
16:29:43 <dael> TabAtkins: If there's no obj for now we can stick with it and if someone comes up with a better idea, post to the ML thread
16:30:00 <dael> Rossen_: So to clarify you see a bunch of flex-basis usage, but can't track values?
16:30:07 <dael> Rossen_: I'll see if I can run a quiry
16:30:24 <dael> TabAtkins: If you can, check to see if you can find flex-basis: auto paired with non-auto width
16:30:51 <dael> TabAtkins: It would be good to know how much flex-basis: auto there is, but we also what to know how much will change when we say it's auto not look at width.
16:30:59 <dael> Rossen_: Is this a change fairly soon?
16:31:09 <dael> TabAtkins: We just changed the spec yesterday. There's no impl yet.
16:31:25 <dael> fantasai: The other name option was match-size
16:31:53 <dael> TabAtkins: I didn't like it because it seemed to imply that it should look at another element, but it's not a strong objection.
16:32:14 <dael> Rossen_: I think main-size is good. I'm sure there will be a lot of action once we get close to another round of calls. Then we'll get 10 other names
16:32:23 <dael> fantasai: Seems people are happy witht he general content
16:32:26 <dael> Rossen_: Yes.
16:32:40 <dael> fantasai: so resolve accepting the change pending usage data and future bikeshedding?
16:32:57 <dael> glazou: Any obj?
16:33:04 <dael> RESOLVED: accepting the change pending usage data and future bikeshedding
16:33:21 <dael> glazou: Next one?
16:33:27 <dael> s/accepting/accept
16:33:36 <dael> TabAtkins: Next is fantasai or dbaron?
16:33:43 <dael> Rossen_: There's another flex?
16:33:48 <dael> TabAtkins: No, there were just 3 links
16:34:00 <dael> Topic: How far from bases should ruby text be?
16:34:11 <dael> fantasai: dbaron do you want to do this on the ml?
16:34:28 <dael> glazou: gregwhitworth sent this, but sent regrets, so I think we should move to item 5 for now.
16:34:30 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jun/0486.html
16:34:34 <dael> Topic: Selector Parsing
16:34:44 <fantasai> dbaron^: yeah, let's discuss on ml
16:34:52 <dael> TabAtkins: The issue is that the unicode range token we just discovered has a long running source of potential bugs
16:34:53 <TabAtkins> div u+a { color: read; }
16:34:57 <fantasai> s/sent this/sent item 4/
16:35:03 <dael> TabAtkins: Okay, pretend that was a real color
16:35:14 <fantasai> s/read/red/
16:35:30 <dael> TabAtkins: This looking like div with a u decendant and an a sybling. This parses as a div ident
16:35:36 <dael> TabAtkins: and then a white space
16:35:47 <dael> TabAtkins: then a unicode range token witht he value a
16:36:12 <dael> TabAtkins: This happens any time you have an underline tag slector followed by a syb combinator followed by a-f
16:36:19 <dael> TabAtkins: So the selector will be invalid accidently
16:36:27 <dael> glazou: So does that mean current browsers fail?
16:36:57 <dael> TabAtkins: Chrome and firefox at least call that invalid, IE does not. Selector parsing is defined loosly. At least 2 browsers consider it invalid
16:37:15 <dael> TabAtkins: This is with CSS minifiers that removes space around combinators except in this one case.
16:37:36 <dael> TabAtkins: Suggestion is to fix this by killing the unicode range and instead use something like <An+B>
16:37:53 <dael> TabAtkins: It'll be just as ugly and complex, but we know it's possible and you can't put one together that works.
16:38:03 <fantasai> I am strongly in favor of doing this.
16:38:10 <dael> TabAtkins: I think this is the right way because it's an odd parsing case taht doens't look like anything else in CSS>
16:38:18 <SimonSapin> +1
16:38:19 <fantasai> unicode-range is only used in one place in the entire language, shouldn't be causing problems anywhere else
16:38:25 <dael> TabAtkins: I can see how special purpose tokens can cause problems here or in the future.
16:38:42 <bkardell_> let's just get rid of <u> :)
16:38:46 <dael> TabAtkins: So I way we replace with a production and make sure the two spec that care, font and font-loading, get updated appropriatly
16:38:52 <dael> fantasai: I think this is a good idea.
16:39:02 <dael> TabAtkins: Some people on thread seem okay, but I want to head obj
16:39:27 <dael> glenn: Do you haev a concrete prop for replacement syntax?  You said something like <An+B> I was wondering if you have actual proposal
16:39:34 <leaverou> +1 for the change
16:39:42 <dael> TabAtkins: I have it in my head, but not in the spec. If I have difficulties I can bring it back tot he list
16:39:48 <dael> fantasai: We have people in favor. Anyone not?
16:39:51 <bkardell_> +1
16:39:51 <dael> glazou: I'm in favor
16:39:58 <glenn> +0
16:40:25 <dael> dbaron: It seems like a bunch of work to impl so we may not do it immediatly and may do a patch and latter do it the right way. It's easy to fix doing context-dependant.
16:40:37 <dael> TabAtkins: It's easy with implementations, but I'm for solving it.
16:40:51 <dael> dbaron: Context-dependant tokenization is worth avoiding in the long run.
16:41:25 <dael> RESOLVED: Remove the unicode range token from syntax and replace with a unicode production similar to <An+B>.
16:41:40 <fantasai> Update CSS Syntax, CSS Fonts, and CSS Font Loading accordingly.
16:41:43 <dael> glazou: That was shorter than expected. Rossen_ can you do greg's item?
16:41:58 <dael> Rossen_: I think TabAtkins was saying he has something to say.
16:42:02 <dael> TabAtkins: I have an agenda+
16:42:11 <dael> Rossen_: So let's do that and if we still have time I'll talk
16:42:18 <dael> Topic: TabAtkins 's +
16:42:54 <dael> TabAtkins: I think this is a resonable request, such as when I'm doing a large text and want it bigger but not bigger than the screen. It should be sized in viewport units, but not larget han the viewport.
16:43:08 <dael> TabAtkins: It seems reasonable, but I'm wondering if there's issue
16:43:37 <dael> TabAtkins: There's a min and max property and you resolve in the same way max and min are done. If it violates max, resolve and if it violates min resolve again
16:43:50 <dael> TabAtkins: So in my case if you want really big text, but not overflow.
16:44:06 <dael> fantasai: I think this is reasonable to have. The only alt is if we introduce max and min functions so you can put it inline.
16:44:10 <leaverou> {min,max}-font-size have been requested quite a lot by authors
16:44:19 <dael> fantasai: I agree with solving with either the property or the max/min
16:44:19 <tantek> copyfitting!
16:44:35 <dael> TabAtkins: They're not incompatable. We could always add the scond later
16:44:42 <dael> dauwhe: Is there accessability concern?
16:45:02 <dael> TabAtkins: I think the opposite. Min font size can be useful so that whatever fancy units don't get smaller than 15 px
16:45:11 <dael> dauwhe: It sounds like this could help the ebook world.
16:45:31 <dael> TabAtkins: So are there any obj or any reasons why we haven't adopted this becides the possible duplication?
16:45:46 <hober> max-font-size: 80vh; min-font-size: 12pt;
16:45:54 <dael> ??: I'd be interested in seeing how we're supposed to use it. So min size is so it stays readble, but your'e resolving on max?
16:46:03 <dael> TabAtkins: Min wins all conflicts. That matches existing
16:46:20 <dael> ??: If you're doing the example from leaverou 12 would be favored?
16:46:30 <dael> fantasai: You use the font size prop to set and this places a limit
16:46:37 <dael> ??: So you use all three in combo?
16:46:57 <fantasai> s/to set/to set the font size/
16:46:58 <MaRakow> s/??/MaRakow
16:46:59 <dael> fantasai: Yes. You set min max and font size and know that when you set the font it will never go above or below your min/max
16:47:05 <fantasai> s/font size prop/font-size property/
16:47:38 <dael> TabAtkins: Keeping the same sematics as min/max width seems sensible. max prevents overflow and min prevents unreasonable smallness so for accessiblility honoring min when it conflicts max is sensible
16:47:54 <dael> TabAtkins: fantasai do you object to the prop, or want to give another try to funt?
16:47:59 <tantek> do we have font-size:auto yet?
16:48:11 <dael> fantasai: No, it makes sense. You may want to do things seperatly, so seperation gives better usability
16:48:15 <dael> TabAtkins: cool.
16:48:19 <dael> TabAtkins: So any obj?
16:48:27 <fantasai> s/min max and font size/min max on the document and use font-size to set the font size throughout the document, knowing that/
16:48:50 <dael> RESOLVED: andd min and max font-size properties
16:48:56 <dael> s/andd/add
16:49:05 <dael> TabAtkins: Is John still fonts editor?
16:49:11 <tantek> nice - well done all
16:49:13 <dael> glazou: He asked to leave temporarily.
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16:49:18 <dael> TabAtkins: then I can do editing.
16:49:26 <dael> fantasai: Fonts is in CR so do we add to 3 or 4?
16:49:47 <dael> fantasai: I think the syntax should be level 3, but this is a new feature. Maybe toss it in an ED?
16:49:52 <Zakim> -BrianKardell
16:50:04 <dael> MaRakow: Elsewise we'd have to go back to LC?
16:50:11 <dael> TabAtkins: Yes, until we remove LC as a level.
16:50:16 <MaRakow> s/MaRakow/??
16:50:23 <tantek> new ED, implementations, test cases, interop, slip it into a Fonts CR iteration
16:50:44 <dael> TabAtkins: So I will add the properties to an ED that I will start and whenever we made the edits, we'll make sure they happen on the 3 CR. If we do this right it'll be informative change.
16:51:04 <dael> glazou: So if there's a new ED, we need a resolution. Any obj to start a new ED for Fonts 4?
16:51:14 <dael> RESOLVED: New ED for Fonts 4
16:51:27 <dael> glazou: I guess that closes this issue. Anything in the last 9 minutes?
16:51:33 <dael> Topic: display: contents
16:52:09 <dael> fantasai: TabAtkins and I were discussing and TabAtkins brought up we have display-box that takes non, normal, and content. The purpose of splitting was to create a dedicated switch for turning on/off
16:52:31 <glazou> tantek, kill section 2.5.1 please
16:52:50 <dael> fantasai: This violates that goal. So it's the same prolem as witht he display. So the proposal is to move content out of display-box so that it's just about hiding or showing since that needs to be a seperate switch.
16:53:00 <dael> fantasai: Esp since contents is seperate of display type
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16:53:08 <fantasai> mail describing the issue: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jul/0023.html
16:53:34 <dael> TabAtkins: None also belongs, but there's reasons to leave it. So this is so we can have an item hiddena nd can easily toggle without having to know everything about it
16:54:17 <dael> TabAtkins: We think it would be okay so that whatever property is holding display: none can have mulit hidden. Right now we have display: none that prevents from displaying, and another where it hides, but makes it create them for the purpose of counters and the like.
16:54:33 <dael> TabAtkins: We think we can do mulitple hiding and one shown and stillg et away witht he use case.
16:54:54 <dael> fantasai: I think you don't want multi hiding, but for this discussion, this is just moving contents into the display property
16:55:18 <dael> TabAtkins: display is a ED until I finish the edits I was supposed to make in Jan. Since we're going to pub a WD it should be approved
16:55:41 <fantasai> TabAtkins, display module is already fpwd
16:55:43 <dael> glazou: I don't want you to precive and recieve as a flame, I have a feeling this goes far beyond what web authors will understand.
16:55:51 <fantasai> www.w3.org/TR/css-display-3/
16:56:12 <dael> glazou: I'm not saying we don't need the feature, I think we are reaching levels of complexity in our solutions that are beyond the users ability.
16:56:27 <dael> glazou: I thinkw e need to think more and find something more useable and readable
16:56:30 <dael> dbaron: About what?
16:56:40 <dael> glazou: all the display-* properties
16:56:59 <tantek> glazou, on it: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Process#Remove_2.5.1
16:57:09 <dael> fantasai: This is taking a value out of a prop that's basically show or don't show thte box. That's a clear switch that authors want and it needs to be sep from the box display type
16:57:18 <dael> fantasai: We're asking to put it back intot he display property
16:57:35 <dael> Rossen_: When you say show/don't show, you mean effect or don't effect the layout?
16:57:41 <glazou> thanks tantek
16:57:47 <dael> TabAtkins: This is the display: none value pushed into a seperate prop
16:57:55 <dael> Rossen_: But still computes those things inside?
16:58:15 <dael> TabAtkins: The normal is no behaviour change. We think we can add a value that does compute inside and just doesn't display
16:58:19 <dael> Rossen_: It's pretty hacky
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16:59:12 <dael> fantasai: That's not what we're discussing now. The issue is we have a prop in a WD that takes these three values. It's show or don't show the box, but it has a value that's a display type. That should be in the display property. We want to move it from the show/don't show the box to the this is how we display propertry
16:59:27 <dael> fantasai: I just want a resolution on that. We can discuss the rest later.
16:59:39 <bradk> Doh! One hour late.
16:59:40 <dael> TabAtkins: So does anyone object to moving the content property
16:59:45 <dael> TabAtkins: Sounds like not
16:59:48 <fantasai> s/content property/contents value/
16:59:53 <dael> Rossen_: It's prob okay. I'm sure we'll revisit.
16:59:58 <dael> fantasai: Anyone else?
17:00:14 <dael> fantasai: You all just really don't case?
17:00:24 <dael> Rossen_: It's time so people want to go away
17:00:29 <dael> TabAtkins: It's a time-out.
17:00:40 <dael> fantasai: So do we resolve?
17:00:46 <dael> glazou: No obj?
17:00:56 <dael> Rossen_: Doesn't sound like there's support or objection
17:01:00 <dael> glazou: Yes.
17:01:21 <dael> Rossen_: I don't see why we'd block keep on working. It sound slike they're still going on that spec and we'll be discussing it again
17:01:29 <dael> glazou: That's a suggestion to defer?
17:02:04 <dael> fantasai: I'd like a  resolution that content goes on display or display-box. We have it in the WD and people are apperently there's impl so does this go to display or display none-ness
17:02:15 <dael> SimonSapin: The proposal sounds good. To move it to display prop.
17:02:18 <dael> glazou: Obj?
17:02:32 <dael> glazou: Support? Comments? Everyone can live iwth it?
17:02:36 <dael> Rossen_: For the time being
17:02:38 <fantasai> s/people are apparently there's impl/people are apparently implementing this, according to the last F2F discussion/
17:02:55 <dael> RESOLVED: Move conent to the display property
17:02:55 <Zakim> -dbaron
17:03:02 <fantasai> s/conent/contents/
17:03:04 <Zakim> -[Apple]
17:03:05 <Zakim> -adenilson
17:03:05 <Zakim> -MaRakow
17:03:06 <Zakim> -glazou
17:03:06 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:03:06 <Zakim> -glenn
17:03:08 <Zakim> -Stearns
17:03:08 <Zakim> -dauwhe
17:03:09 <dael> glazou: So this is the end of the call. Thank you and bye everyone!
17:03:09 <Zakim> -AH_Miller
17:03:09 <Zakim> -koji
17:03:12 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
17:03:14 <Zakim> -dael
17:03:15 <Zakim> -SimonSapin
17:03:16 <Zakim> -alex_antennahouse
17:03:17 <Zakim> - +1.631.398.aaii
17:03:22 <Zakim> -plinss
17:03:25 <Zakim> -abinader
17:03:26 <Zakim> -murakami
17:03:26 <fantasai> Seriously, next time I'm not going to be like "so we want to make this change", I'm going to be "do you want result A or result B"
17:03:31 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:03:39 <Zakim> -Lea
17:03:40 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:03:40 <Zakim> Attendees were +33.1.34.51.aaaa, glazou, dauwhe, +1.617.477.aabb, fantasai, dael, Stearns, Lea, SimonSapin, +1.240.421.aacc, AH_Miller, adenilson, +1.281.305.aadd,
17:03:40 <Zakim> ... alex_antennahouse, TabAtkins, murakami, +1.206.992.aaee, MaRakow, BrianKardell, plinss, +1.720.897.aaff, glenn, +1.631.398.aagg, koji, dbaron, abinader, Rossen_, hober,
17:03:41 <Zakim> ... +1.631.398.aaii
17:03:56 <fantasai> then people have to *choose*
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21:27:01 <Ms2ger> Bah, why don't I get one?
21:28:34 <tantek> nice try Ms2ger
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21:29:33 <Ms2ger> :D
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21:52:51 <liam> astearns, watch out - http://www.trendski.com/2011/02/academy-awards-longest-speeches.html
21:52:55 <liam> :)
21:54:21 <astearns> liam: while I have seen Ms2ger with my own eyes, I have never actually heard him speak. So it might be worth it.
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21:54:38 <liam> :D
21:55:08 <Ms2ger> I think liam has heard me speak, actually
21:55:29 <Ms2ger> At least, if this is the liam with the bare feet from the CSSWG meeting in Paris
21:55:35 <liam> yes it is
21:57:21 <liam> (surprising sometimes how many people remember me for my lack of footwear)
21:59:33 <Ms2ger> It's something easy to identify you by, at least :)
22:03:27 <liam> (and unfortunately i'm really bad at remembering people's names until i've met them at least three or four times)
22:09:27 <SimonSapin> liam: FWIW, I remember you four your wizard’s hat :)
22:10:01 <Ms2ger> I somehow overlooked that
22:10:10 <SimonSapin> in Lyon
22:11:28 <liam> SimonSapin, :)
22:12:05 <liam> astearns, yeah, I asked Lea Verou who she was in Paris, and as a student coming home for a holiday for the first time, I walked past my parents
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