14:29:49 RRSAgent has joined #dpub 14:29:49 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/30-dpub-irc 14:29:51 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:29:52 Zakim has joined #dpub 14:29:53 Zakim, this will be dpub 14:29:54 ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 31 minutes 14:29:54 Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference 14:29:54 Date: 30 June 2014 14:31:02 ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting agenda for 2014-06-30: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Jun/0059.html 14:31:10 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Jun/0059.html 14:31:14 Chair: Markus 14:34:48 clapierre has joined #DPUB 14:47:51 Karen has joined #dpub 14:52:49 mgylling has joined #dpub 14:55:49 AH_Miller has joined #DPUB 14:56:09 clapierre1 has joined #DPUB 14:57:22 DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has now started 14:57:29 + +1.240.421.aaaa 14:57:50 dkaplan3 has joined #dpub 14:58:07 zakim, code? 14:58:07 the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), mgylling 14:58:19 + +1.650.644.aabb 14:58:23 +??P7 14:58:36 zakim, ??P7 is me 14:58:36 +mgylling; got it 14:58:41 Zakium 1.650.644 is me 14:58:46 zakim, dial ivan-aix 14:58:46 ok, ivan; the call is being made 14:58:48 +Ivan 14:59:07 philm has joined #dpub 14:59:11 + +1.917.207.aacc 14:59:17 Zakim, aacc is me 14:59:17 +dauwhe; got it 14:59:29 zakim, 1.650.644 is clapierre1 14:59:29 sorry, ivan, I do not recognize a party named '1.650.644' 14:59:48 + +1.212.364.aadd 15:00:00 Zakim, aadd is me. 15:00:00 +philm; got it 15:00:17 Hi, Dave 15:00:18 Zakium aabb is me 15:00:22 +Liam 15:00:25 brady_duga has joined #dpub 15:00:26 zakim, aabb us clapierre1 15:00:26 zakim, aabb is clapierre1 15:00:26 I don't understand 'aabb us clapierre1', ivan 15:00:27 +clapierre1; got it 15:00:50 + +1.617.439.aaee 15:01:04 Vlad has joined #dpub 15:01:10 zakim, who is typing? 15:01:10 I don't understand your question, mgylling. 15:01:22 +duga 15:01:26 + +1.617.439.aaff 15:01:28 zakim, aaee is dkaplan3 15:01:29 +dkaplan3; got it 15:01:34 liza has joined #dpub 15:01:37 tmichel has joined #dpub 15:01:38 +Vlad 15:01:41 Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub 15:01:47 + +1.217.244.aagg 15:01:49 + +1.617.858.aahh 15:01:54 + +1.734.904.aaii 15:01:55 zakim, aaff is liza 15:01:55 + +1.718.701.aajj 15:01:55 +liza; got it 15:02:18 zakim, aagg is TimCole 15:02:18 +TimCole; got it 15:02:19 + +1.201.236.aakk 15:02:24 pkra is +1.617.858.aahh 15:02:41 + +1.646.336.aall 15:02:43 zakim, aahh is pkra 15:02:43 +pkra; got it 15:02:45 timCole has joined #dpub 15:02:49 pbelfanti has joined #dpub 15:03:02 zakim, aaii is Bill_Kasdorf 15:03:02 +Bill_Kasdorf; got it 15:03:14 LauraD has joined #dpub 15:03:36 zakim, aajj is LauraD 15:03:36 +LauraD; got it 15:03:51 zakim, aakk is pbelfanti 15:03:51 +pbelfanti; got it 15:04:06 +??P4 15:04:17 zakim, ??P4 is me 15:04:17 +tmichel; got it 15:04:20 zakim, aall is Julie_Morris 15:04:20 +Julie_Morris; got it 15:04:24 +Karen_Myers 15:05:30 zakim, code? 15:05:30 the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), fjh 15:05:35 Luc has joined #dpub 15:05:37 scribenick: dauwhe 15:05:42 +Frederick_Hirsch 15:05:44 q+ 15:05:51 mgylling: objections to approving minutes? 15:05:54 Present+ Frederick_Hirsch 15:05:58 ack cla 15:06:20 clapierre: my name was mispelled in minutes 15:06:22 ack clap 15:06:45 s/is/shouldbe/ 15:06:53 mgylling: one can edit minutes directly in IRC 15:07:09 Ivan: one word or two? 15:07:15 clapierre1: one 15:07:23 mgylling: Are minutes approved? 15:07:27 ... yes. 15:07:38 ... Topic: summer break 15:07:42 some editing tips here, http://www.w3.org/2008/xmlsec/Group/Scribe-Instructions.html (members only link) 15:08:05 ... should we have a summer break during July? 15:08:19 ... it would not prevent individual task force work 15:08:25 ... any reactions? 15:08:26 thanks 15:08:26 + +1.609.216.aamm 15:08:31 David_stroup has joined #dpub 15:08:55 Julie has joined #dpub 15:09:26 mgylling: suggestion was to start again on 11 August 15:09:32 + +1.585.217.aann 15:09:59 I've took my vacation last week. 15:10:11 Julie: July and August are equally busy in the US 15:10:18 ... July is worse for me 15:10:31 mgylling: Liza, Ivan, what do you say? 15:10:45 Sorry, I am having phone issues and on my commute to work, so I will have to drop and won’t be able to rejoin 15:10:46 I'll be away beginning of August coming back after th 20th 15:10:52 -duga 15:10:53 ... we could reconvene on Aug 11 as heartbeat check 15:11:24 Liam: some groups have editing review meetings--review docs on IRC 15:11:40 Ivan: during aug 11 heartbeat decide what to do 15:12:02 mgylling: we'll reconvene August 11 15:12:31 mgylling: a11y task force has been meeting 15:12:38 s/mgylling/liza/ 15:12:48 Liza: would that be good topic for next week? 15:13:00 mgylling: Charles, do you think that would be a good topic? 15:13:13 ???: next Monday would be good for me. 15:13:17 Liza: let's do that. 15:13:19 +1 Accessibility topic on 7 July 15:13:35 Ivan: herding stray phone numbers 15:13:38 585 David stroup 15:13:46 zakim, aamm is Laura_Fowler 15:13:46 +Laura_Fowler; got it 15:13:53 zakim, aann is David_stroup 15:13:53 +David_stroup; got it 15:13:56 ???: heavy sigh 15:14:12 s/???/Markus/ 15:14:21 mgylling: Peter, the idea is to get quality time to understand STEM use cases work 15:14:28 ... and to get suggestions you need. 15:14:36 ... I don't have a plan for this 15:14:51 ... I'd like to learn about the thinking and wiki work you've done so far 15:15:53 -Frederick_Hirsch 15:15:56 tm has joined #dpub 15:15:57 pkra: I added a few more math-specific use cases 15:16:05 ... things like graphing and diagrams 15:16:12 ... not sure which direction work should go 15:16:14 +??P13 15:16:26 zakim, ??P13 is me 15:16:26 +tm; got it 15:16:27 zakim, who is noisy? 15:16:38 mgylling, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: mgylling (53%), pkra (67%) 15:16:49 sorry I had lost my ADSL connection :-(( 15:17:07 ... progressive enhancements fed into STEM stuff 15:17:11 +Frederick_Hirsch 15:17:13 ... user agent improvements 15:17:23 -> http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Chemistry_UC Chemistry use case 15:17:29 ... new standards like ChemML are in scope? Yes. 15:17:51 -> http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Diagrams_and_Graphing_UC Diagrams, Graphics Use cases 15:17:52 ... is mathml enough for science? 15:18:06 ... mathml may need work to support k-12 15:18:07 Sorry cannot make it. 15:18:19 ... there were emails 15:18:31 actually it was MathML 3.0 that added the K-12 support 15:18:38 ... tcole brought up contacting digital library of mathematics folks 15:19:01 ... George K. added some notes on a11y pointed towards describedby and other ARIA things 15:19:09 ... that's what I've gathered so far 15:19:16 ... my questions aabout scope 15:19:28 ... how do web components work here? 15:19:40 ... for chem there's ChemML that might be typical use case 15:19:56 ... if platform doesn't already support these standards, could web components help? 15:20:09 ... where is the balance to be found? 15:20:22 ... mathml is a good example. Is it a problem or poster child for web standards? 15:20:29 ... it's sucessfull on creation side 15:20:35 ... it's the html way of writing math 15:20:48 ... but it's a huge problem because browsers haven't supported 15:21:05 ... web components could solve some problems, but make it harder to publish these materisals 15:21:10 [I believe safari has mathml support, and there's some mediocre support in firefox] 15:21:13 s/html/xml and html 15:21:16 ... where to draw the line between web components and standards work 15:21:35 ... can we do everything in SVG? Yes, but it doesn't solve problems of publishers. 15:21:44 mgylling: it's a valid question 15:22:01 ... if we look at from use case perspective, you shouldn't have to worry 15:22:15 ... the first thing we have to do is describe how publishers want to use the OWP 15:22:28 ... whether we have a name is the next question 15:22:48 ... you can pretend to be ignorant about the solution space, and describe the problelm space 15:22:59 ... you have updated the toc in the use case directory? 15:23:01 pkra: yes 15:23:26 mgylling: it might sound like a dry, academic answer to separate things like that 15:23:31 q+ 15:23:41 ...: web folks doen't know what content folks want to do 15:24:03 ... mathml is a good example. Great expectations among publishers, nothing from web world 15:24:25 ... if we say web components, we can answer every possible question 15:24:35 ... lots of hype right now 15:24:50 ... with a good amount of scripting and connectivity you can make things loook like they are real 15:25:02 ... declarative vs scripted 15:25:16 ... should publishing give up on declaritive and go all-in for scripting 15:25:27 ... so we'd just draw math on canvas and give up on mathml 15:25:36 ... key issue is declarative vs scripted 15:25:38 q+ 15:25:45 q? 15:25:49 q+ 15:25:52 ack timCole 15:26:19 timCole: one nuance... based on mathml experience, why would publisher see advanatage in using some of these technologies 15:26:50 ack liam 15:26:50 liam, you wanted to point out that web components don't really address the problem 15:26:54 ... people ask why can't I use TeX 15:27:00 Liam: three things 15:27:04 ... just two 15:27:23 ... one: web components would address the markup issue, but we already have mathml 15:27:29 ... the difficult part is formatting 15:27:36 ... so you either recreate mathjax 15:27:48 ... there's nothing in CSS to do math formatting without a lot of work 15:27:56 ... the other part is JATS 15:28:02 ... which is used in STM publishing 15:28:11 ... as opposed to STEM 15:28:19 ... STM uses MathML extensively 15:28:27 and BITS is the book counterpart to JATS 15:28:29 ack clapierre 15:28:36 clapierre1: on a11y we have to make sure we don 15:28:49 q+ 15:28:50 ... lose descriptive presentation for math 15:28:57 ... we can't forget that 15:28:59 ack Bill_K 15:29:19 Bill_Kasdorf: there's now BITS: book interchange tag suite 15:29:27 ... Mathml is part of that 15:29:42 ... declarative vs scripted. I'm on the declarative side 15:29:42 s/???/charles/ 15:30:01 ... here's something that's richly described, then scripting can do something with that 15:30:20 ... I have a preference for making available a resourdce that many things can be done with 15:30:42 s/resourdce/resource/ 15:30:52 mgylling: I'm a big fan of declarative, as it helps with a11y, and the presentation can be negotiated with the user 15:31:04 must drop from call - regrets 15:31:08 ... scripted stuff can have user negotiation, but is more like black box 15:31:09 -pbelfanti 15:31:15 ... it is a tricky question 15:31:21 ... we can love declarative 15:31:32 ... but if the cost and struggle to get something to work that way is too high 15:31:40 ... will the publishing community adopt? 15:31:50 q? 15:31:54 ack ivan 15:31:55 Bill_Kasdorf: if it doesn't have support, it's not useful 15:32:29 Ivan: to comment on web components; I'm not married to them 15:32:43 ... I didn't mean to use web components for mathml 15:32:59 ... I was wondering about chemistry or electronics 15:33:07 ... on declarative vs scripted 15:33:24 ... in an ideal world the reason I was wondering about it was exactly that 15:33:44 ... it gives the end user a way to extend the declarative part of html who's behaviour is encoded in JS 15:34:00 ... once those components are defined, the author would use the markup in a declarative way 15:34:08 ... and the component/script would do the presentation 15:34:40 ... for example, with ChemML it's a way forward without brower support for ChemML 15:34:52 ... i don't know if web components are rich enough for these kinds of uses 15:34:58 ... but may be worth considering 15:35:36 mgylling: the setup you describe is not that different from MathML plus mathjax 15:36:04 pkra: I had understood it that way, Ivan. My question came from Markus inviting me to not care about the solution 15:36:16 ... I do believe web components will be useful 15:36:24 ... my question: how do we combine this? 15:36:32 ... what do we want from interesteed parties? 15:37:00 ... our use case is going to be to use this markup but not as a web standard, but as a web component standard 15:37:03 q+ 15:37:07 ... how do we get the richest feedback? 15:37:12 mgylling: I think so 15:37:56 pkra: web platform offers everything with mathml svg canvas, you'd have a really powerful base 15:38:09 ... it comes down to making it usable 15:38:17 ... what do we do on the standards side of this 15:38:28 ... do we pick winners, identify the standards with the biggest market 15:38:41 q+ 15:38:48 ... and combine that with ideas that can work as web components 15:39:04 mgylling: the pub community wants answers. what should we focus on? 15:39:17 ... big-time publishers still provide math as bitmap images 15:39:35 ... not because they're ignorant but because it's the only thing that works everywhere 15:39:49 ... this IG can provide answers: you should use X for this problem 15:40:23 ... another thought: the fact that web components exist doesn't matter in most cases because publishers don't have the engineering staff 15:40:43 ... that will feed into a preexisting web component taht would render such content 15:41:03 +1 15:41:10 ... it doesn't remove the need for standards, just changes where things are standardized, as a web component thing or as a markup language 15:41:16 Ivan: not either/or 15:41:38 ... from author/editor POV, it looks clear that a declarative standard is necessary. 15:41:47 ... who would do that is separate WQ 15:41:52 s/WQ/question 15:42:13 ... if I would do that today, the browsers will not just implement it by themselves 15:42:21 ... we've learned the lesson of MathML 15:42:31 ... I'd look at another way of implementing 15:42:42 ... web components might be another way of implementing something 15:42:50 ... so these things can be done in parallel 15:43:05 ... my question is still (for example with ChemML) 15:43:14 ... is this doable with web components? 15:43:25 ... it may be technically not feasible 15:43:34 ... I don't know if that's true or false 15:43:46 ... it would be very valuable to find out the answer 15:44:01 q? 15:44:06 ack ivan 15:44:20 ... I don't just don't want to believe that web components would solve, in case they would't 15:44:31 ... Peter, you may know this 15:44:39 [I note that today there's JavaScript to render CML in SVG] 15:44:49 ... the reason why the browsers have not implemented mathml is that they don't feel there's a market 15:44:57 ... it's not a priority 15:45:18 ... would a concentrated documentation of all the needs of the publishing industry overall 15:45:30 ... including scholarly publishing (and not just books) 15:45:40 ... and bring in business figures to show how important this is 15:45:51 ... would this help browsers change their mind? 15:46:06 mgylling: we should talk about who to reach out 15:46:10 ack Bill_K 15:46:34 Bill_Kasdorf: AAP implementation project, Mathml was the highest priority from a11y people 15:47:10 ... on the strategy of mathml plus canvas, I believe that just deals with display issues 15:47:28 ... and not interactive issues? 15:47:32 pkra: Yes 15:47:51 Bill_Kasdorf: another benefit of mathml is that it does both things 15:48:12 pkra: there's a bit of a gap here, there's two separate standards 15:48:16 ... content vs display 15:48:31 ... presentation is already pretty rich, a11y tools can use 15:49:09 ... there aren't authoring tools in content mathml 15:49:22 Bill_Kasdorf: presentational is the highest priority 15:49:30 pkra: it's easy to convert back and forth 15:49:50 ... then you can talk about more advanced computation/display 15:49:54 ack liam 15:49:54 liam, you wanted to discuss some people to whom to reach out to - CML: peter Murray-Rust (of course); STM publishing: http://www.stm-assoc.org/ and others; mathml semantic tools 15:49:57 ... will happen, e.g. from maple, wulfram, if needed 15:50:12 ... I've given up trying to understand vendors 15:50:33 ... lots of interest on browser implemtation side, just not enough to get the ball rolling 15:50:44 ... I agree with ivan, making the business case would help 15:50:53 ... and that's not just for mathml 15:51:03 mgylling: that should be the ambition of the use cases 15:51:13 ... let's just describe what publishers want to do 15:51:27 [some people to whom to reach out - CML: peter Murray-Rust (of course); STM publishing: http://www.stm-assoc.org/ and others; mathml semantic tools will happen, e.g. from maple, wulfram, if needed ] 15:51:29 Liam: who to reach out to? 15:51:59 ... someone mentioned CML, Peter Murray-Rust; there's an association of STM publishers 15:52:20 ... Maple and Wolfram are market leaders for software 15:52:23 add sagemath, iPython. 15:52:34 Happy Canada Day (tomorrow July 1) :) 15:52:46 q+ two addl suggestions: Design Science; SSP (Society for Scholarly Publishing) 15:52:57 Liam: if publishing world said we need this, there are people with authoring tools 15:52:58 ack Bill_K 15:53:01 [merci] 15:53:17 Bill_Kasdorf: Two more... I can get people from SSP folks 15:53:37 How about Design Science and the work being done by Frédéric Wang? 15:53:41 ... also Design Science 15:53:41 +1 Design Science 15:54:19 Liam: they also make word plugins 15:54:31 mgylling: the idea would be to grow use case collection 15:54:36 Frédéric Wang has been working on MathML for Gecko and WebKit. 15:54:37 q+ 15:54:40 ... not only to convince browsers about mathml 15:54:47 fjh has joined #dpub 15:54:50 ... but to grow the whole world of scholarly publishing 15:54:59 ... and we invite feedback from more people 15:55:22 ... do you have things to add to existing use case collection? 15:55:34 pkra: I have some rough ideas but there's not a list 15:55:45 ... let's reach out to everyone to get ideas 15:56:21 ... two things: who's working on the task force? 15:56:28 ... Tim Cole is interested 15:56:45 ... especially on non-math stuff 15:56:54 ... engineering has many higher needs 15:57:15 Bill_Kasdorf: I'd be happy to help, I have lots of contacts 15:57:25 timCole: I have lots of contacts, too. 15:57:39 ack ivan 15:57:45 Ivan: before we go, one more comment 15:58:14 ... Madi and Bill did lots of interviews with people in the space 15:58:25 ... which would be synthesized into a document 15:58:33 ... something similar would be helpful here 15:58:42 ... since we want a "business plan" 15:58:55 ... backing that up with major players and companies gives it more weight 15:59:09 ... so you might want to look at what bill and Madi did as an example 15:59:15 Bill_Kasdorf: it's all on the wiki now 15:59:25 mgylling: it's a good way to gather data 15:59:37 ... it does take time, though 15:59:59 Ivan: Force 11 is looking at scholarly publishing 16:00:49 pkra: Summary: I'm in a good place right now; I have a lot go through 16:01:06 ... can plan what you're describing, and come back with more use cases etc 16:01:36 mgylling: sounds good to me 16:01:52 yes 16:01:53 ... we're over time. Any final comments? 16:02:14 -liza 16:02:16 -David_stroup 16:02:16 -LauraD 16:02:17 -Karen_Myers 16:02:17 -philm 16:02:18 -Julie_Morris 16:02:19 -TimCole 16:02:19 -Bill_Kasdorf 16:02:20 -pkra 16:02:20 - +1.240.421.aaaa 16:02:20 -Frederick_Hirsch 16:02:20 -Vlad 16:02:21 -clapierre1 16:02:21 -mgylling 16:02:23 -dkaplan3 16:02:23 -Laura_Fowler 16:02:24 -dauwhe 16:02:24 -Ivan 16:02:25 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:02:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/30-dpub-minutes.html tm 16:02:26 AH_Miller has joined #DPUB 16:02:27 clapierre1 has left #dpub 16:02:29 dkaplan3 has left #dpub 16:02:32 -Liam 17:00:02 pkra has joined #dpub 18:09:06 pkra has joined #dpub 19:55:21