16:40:41 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:40:41 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-irc 16:40:43 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:40:43 Zakim has joined #ua 16:40:45 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 16:40:45 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 20 minutes 16:40:46 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 16:40:46 Date: 19 June 2014 16:41:11 rrs agent, make logs 16:41:27 rrsagent, makelogs 16:41:27 I'm logging. I don't understand 'makelogs', kford. Try /msg RRSAgent help 16:41:48 rrsagent, make logs 16:41:48 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make logs', kford. Try /msg RRSAgent help 16:43:00 agenda+ Response to UAWG comments HTML 5 Image Description 16:43:01 agenda+ comments LG01, 02, 03 16:43:15 rrsagent, make minutes 16:43:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html a-jealli 16:46:01 allanj has joined #ua 16:46:20 rrsagent, set logs public 16:54:13 agenda+ Meeting times 16:56:25 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 16:56:32 +[Microsoft] 16:56:53 zakim, microsoft is kford 16:56:53 +kford; got it 16:57:10 zakim, a-jealli is Jennifer 16:57:10 sorry, kford, I do not recognize a party named 'a-jealli' 16:57:35 zakim, a-jealli is Jennifer 16:57:35 sorry, kford, I do not recognize a party named 'a-jealli' 17:00:56 Jan has joined #ua 17:01:09 zakim, code? 17:01:09 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan 17:01:18 +Jeanne 17:02:19 Greg has joined #ua 17:02:28 +[IPcaller] 17:02:52 +Greg_Lowney 17:03:05 zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan 17:03:05 +Jan; got it 17:06:17 Chair:Kelly_For 17:06:34 chair: Kelly_Ford_Jim_Allan 17:07:40 +Jim_Allan 17:09:20 scribe: allanj 17:09:43 scribenick: allanj 17:10:33 zakim, agenda? 17:10:33 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda: 17:10:34 1. Response to UAWG comments HTML 5 Image Description [from kford] 17:10:34 2. comments LG01, 02, 03 [from kford] 17:10:34 3. Meeting times [from kford] 17:10:48 Group making introductions to Jennifer. 17:11:08 zakim take up item 3 17:11:17 zakim, take up item 3 17:11:17 agendum 3. "Meeting times" taken up [from kford] 17:15:38 http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meeting.html 17:16:23 http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?month=6&day=20&year=2014&p1=250&p2=234&p3=33&iv=0 17:17:47 all: discussion of changing meeting time. 17:18:36 js: will reach out to Asia folks to see what times work 17:19:48 kf: would like to move time if we get more participation. 17:19:51 zakim, close item 3 17:19:51 agendum 3, Meeting times, closed 17:19:52 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:19:52 1. Response to UAWG comments HTML 5 Image Description [from kford] 17:20:38 zakim, take up item 1 17:20:38 agendum 1. "Response to UAWG comments HTML 5 Image Description" taken up [from kford] 17:21:09 scribe: kford 17:21:27 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014AprJun/0063.html 17:21:29 JA: This came to the list, did anyone have issues? I didn't. 17:21:55 JA: These were our comments on image description. They took some, ignored some. All seemed reasonable. 17:22:26 JA reading parts of the mail. 17:22:44 JA: Several like this. 17:22:53 JA: Anyone else read or have thoughts. 17:23:11 kford: I read, seemed reasonable. 17:23:46 JA: Jeanne do we need to do anything else. 17:24:17 GL: I do consider it unfortunate that they are rejecting some of our comments but it isn't surprising. 17:24:33 GL: Such as having it apply to more elements. 17:24:53 JA: I could put that in the reply. 17:26:19 JS: GL can you give me a bit more of your concenrs. Maybe I can pursue informally. 17:26:55 GL: As far as I can tell there is no cost for making longdesc apply to more than image aside from authoring tools having to support. Checking tools would have to be modified too. 17:27:13 JA: Also browser implications since they've not been doing longdesc at all. 17:27:46 GL: Not sure it would be required for them to do anything other than accept as a valid syntax. We in UAAG would be placing the requirement. 17:27:59 JA: They would have to show implementation. 17:28:06 rrsagent, make minutes 17:28:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html kford 17:28:27 JA continues to expand on implementation requirements. 17:29:01 GL: If it was generalized to other elements to div are you saying they'd have to find two implementations on every element? 17:29:11 JA: I believe so yes when I look at their other tests. 17:29:36 JA: Want me to say something? 17:29:49 JS: We could say we want this to be in the next version? 17:30:02 GL: Unless there is an alternative. 17:30:18 JA: I know they are working on this with some described work. 17:31:00 KF: Fish or cut bate, including this in the reply, asking Jeanne to do something informally or doing nothing. 17:32:30 Group will have something mentioned in the reply. 17:33:07 Scribe: Jennifer 17:33:44 gl: talking about 17:33:49 > 2. Contrast with ARIA DescribedBy: The use case "Referring to an 17:33:50 > existing description" sounds like exactly what ARIA DescribedBy is 17:33:52 > used for, so it might be good to clarify why longdesc is also needed, 17:33:53 > and whether you're recommending one or both be used. 17:33:55 aria-describedBy must be used on the same page as the thing it describes. 17:33:56 Among other things, this means a single description at a given URI cannot 17:33:58 be re-used by multiple instances of the same image. This would fail to 17:33:59 JA: read mail reply 17:34:00 meet the "Re-use" requirement, which is relied on by several use cases. 17:34:14 their response is directed at UAWG but no changes made to the document. 17:35:52 Jim will add to document. for the TF to clarify in the document why aria-describedby and longdesc 17:37:00 KF: comment issue is not worth the energy to fight for, we will live with it 17:38:06 group: item has been addressed but not sure what can be done 17:39:10 Zakim, take up item 2 17:39:10 agendum 2. "comments LG01, 02, 03" taken up [from kford] 17:39:32 Topic: comment LG01 17:39:58 all JO comments have been done. 17:40:11 JA: edited and sent to JS 17:40:59 summary of 2.11 LG01: I noticed an error in guideline 2.11. In the summary, each criterion is identified (e.g. stop/pause/resume 2.11.5). However there is a mismatch starting at 2.11.8. In the summary, 2.11.8 should describe enabling and disabling of tracks while 2.11.9 should address contrast adjustments. However in the following details section, there is no content about tracks, 2.11.8 is... 17:41:00 ...used to describe contrast and 2.11.9 is not listed. 17:41:01 http://jspellman.github.io/UAAG-LC-Comment/ 17:41:01 That criterion is very important because it likely address captions and audio description of timed media. 17:41:54 JA: this seems editorial give to JS 17:41:58 action: Jeanne to repair 2.11 summary in regard to comment LG01 17:41:58 Created ACTION-986 - Repair 2.11 summary in regard to comment lg01 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-06-26]. 17:43:19 Topic: LG02 1.7.4 Save Copies of Stylesheets: 17:43:38 LG02: To save some crucial load time and bandwidth for mobile users, it is custom to compress stylesheets and scripts (the process is usually called minification). Considering this, it would be highly beneficial if the saved stylesheet were saved in a pretty-print manner to facilitate authoring by users. 17:43:40 Note that minification is not as important for local stylesheet as files loaded locally don't incur the overheads of HTTP requests. 17:44:40 JA: ask for input 17:45:47 GL: must be tools that can be used 17:46:44 Group: agree 17:47:10 action: allanj to create an implementation note for 1.7.4 about formatted CSS not minified 17:47:10 Error finding 'allanj'. You can review and register nicknames at . 17:47:22 action: jallan to create an implementation note for 1.7.4 about formatted CSS not minified 17:47:22 Created ACTION-987 - Create an implementation note for 1.7.4 about formatted css not minified [on Jim Allan - due 2014-06-26]. 17:48:01 Topic: LG03 2.4.5 Alternative Content Search: 17:48:11 rrsagent, make minutes 17:48:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html jeanne 17:48:13 LG03: 2.11.2 and 2.11.3 requires the ability to block execution or playback of media. However in 2.4.5, searching a page should also search in captions, which may not be loaded as per 2.11.2 / 2.11.3. The examples for 2.4.5 mention that the user agent moves to the specified point in the video. 17:48:15 Am i misunderstanding? 17:48:59 JA: conflict or a misunderstanding 17:52:38 Group: Discussing captions vs document. What is actually getting down loaded? When are captions downloaded? 17:54:57 GL: 2.11.1 auto play over ride discussion 17:56:02 JA: note or move over to 2.4.5. 17:56:55 JS: does it apply to just 2.4.5. or move to top 17:58:14 JR: Example of issue 17:59:03 JA: Infinite scowling 17:59:15 s/scowling/scrolling 17:59:52 thank you 18:00:52 KF: discuss push back from browsers 18:05:31 Group sorting out comment status 18:05:34 JA All editorials, Erik all done, comment dispositions not all up to date 18:06:03 rrsagent, make minutes 18:06:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html kford 18:06:10 That is, push back from browser developers if we were to try to require content to be downloaded early, just so the user could search alternative content. We are explicitly instead adding a note to clarify that we are NOT requiring that. 18:09:15 http://jspellman.github.io/UAAG-LC-Comment/ 18:10:08 Topic: SH03 1.8.14 Provide Webpage Bookmarks 18:10:32 H03: 1.8.14 is a good idea but I think we need to make it clear that persistence is not guaranteed if the page elements have changed and there needs to be some way to notify people that the marked content has changed or been lost. 18:11:03 JA: Doesn't this seem related to infinite scroll. 18:11:40 and searching, or live regions 18:11:41 GL: this is no different than having a bookmark to an internal link and that link might be gone. 18:14:34 JR goes over a couple of examples of facebook and snapchat messages that disappear over time. 18:15:40 JA: JS numbers on 1.8.17 is has something not come through 18:16:26 JS: comments where written by JR 18:17:11 JR: not amending but adding another case 18:18:02 rrsagent, make minutes 18:18:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html kford 18:18:09 regrets: Kim 18:18:45 Topic: SH04 1.10.1 Show Related Elements: 18:18:54 SH04: For 1.10.1 are we assuming that close elements will be close in the DOM. I'd think this would be hard based on the visual rendering, and would require some idea of the semantics of the association. I'd also think that a label to a form element could be close in DOM for distant in the visual rendering based on the CSS, how is this handled? 18:19:32 Present: Jim, Jan, Greg, Kelly, Jeanne 18:20:01 rrsagent, make minutes 18:20:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html kford 18:21:10 GL: doesn't understand comment and explains his reasoning 18:21:20 gl: the relationship is 'recognized', spatial proximity should not matter 18:23:00 jr: what does "access" mean? can the user go there, is there a tooltip, or access to the information. 18:23:11 GL: access does that mean go there or access to info 18:23:12 gl: access to information, not navigation. 18:23:39 The Intent and Examples clarify this is not about navigation, but about presenting related information to the user. 18:24:57 Group keeps discussing what we mean about the path to an element. 18:25:07 Talking about how unbounded this can become. 18:25:28 from the implementation doc: Some users have difficulty perceiving, remembering, or understanding the relationships between elements and their descriptions. Certain elements relate to others in a recognizable manner, such as relationships with 'id' attributes and child elements (e.g. Ajax widgets and with form elements). This allows users to better understand these relationships even if the... 18:25:30 ...elements are not adjacent on the screen or the DOM. 18:25:55 Jan is correct that the SC is vague about how many different types of relationships need to be supported. 18:26:42 JR: How does a browser know when it is fullfulled 18:27:18 Also note that the title of the SC doesn't really match with the actual wording, as the former says "show related elements" but the SC does not require showing any elements, but rather information from or about those elements. 18:28:22 GL: suggest change title or sc 18:29:32 1.10.1 Show Related Elements: The user agent presents labels for at least the following element relations: (Level AA) 18:29:34 - Form control labels 18:29:35 - tyable cell headers 18:29:39 JA: Headers and id or relationships with nested elements, open for discussion 18:30:23 +1 to Jan proposal 18:30:38 kf: +1 to jan proposal 18:30:40 KF: agree with JR 1.10.1 18:30:43 1.10.1 Show Related Elements: The user agent presents labels for at least the following element relationships: (Level AA) 18:30:45 - Form control labels 18:30:46 - table cell headers 18:31:15 1.10.1 Show Related Elements: The user agent presents adjacent labels for at least the following element relationships: (Level AA) 18:31:16 - Form control labels 18:31:18 - table cell headers 18:31:50 Group Discuss JR proposal 18:33:11 -Jan 18:33:13 -Jeanne 18:33:16 -kford 18:33:24 -Jim_Allan 18:33:26 -Greg_Lowney 18:33:27 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 18:33:27 Attendees were kford, Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Jan, Jim_Allan 18:33:29 rrsagent, make minutes 18:33:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html allanj 18:34:53 zakim, please part 18:34:53 Zakim has left #ua 18:35:01 rrsagent, make minutes 18:35:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html allanj 18:38:55 rrsagent,please part 18:38:55 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-actions.rdf : 18:38:55 ACTION: Jeanne to repair 2.11 summary in regard to comment LG01 [1] 18:38:55 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-irc#T17-41-58 18:38:55 ACTION: allanj to create an implementation note for 1.7.4 about formatted CSS not minified [2] 18:38:55 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-irc#T17-47-10 18:38:55 ACTION: jallan to create an implementation note for 1.7.4 about formatted CSS not minified [3] 18:38:55 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-irc#T17-47-22