15:06:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dnt
15:06:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/18-dnt-irc
15:06:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:06:42 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be TRACK
15:06:42 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM scheduled to start in 54 minutes
15:06:43 <trackbot> Meeting: Tracking Protection Working Group Teleconference
15:06:43 <trackbot> Date: 18 June 2014
15:07:14 <ninja> agenda?
15:07:34 <ninja> regrets: carlcargill, wseltzer
15:07:38 <ninja> chair: justin
15:15:44 <ninja> regrets+ susanisrael
15:55:18 <eberkower> eberkower has joined #dnt
15:56:37 <npdoty> npdoty has joined #dnt
15:57:01 <ninja> zakim, call ninja-office
15:57:02 <Zakim> ok, ninja; the call is being made
15:57:02 <Zakim> T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM has now started
15:57:04 <Zakim> +Ninja
15:57:54 <justin> justin has joined #dnt
15:58:26 <JackHobaugh> JackHobaugh has joined #dnt
15:59:01 <Chris_M> Chris_M has joined #dnt
15:59:25 <Zakim> + +1.646.654.aaaa
15:59:36 <eberkower> Zakim, aaaa is eberkower
15:59:36 <Zakim> +eberkower; got it
15:59:42 <Zakim> +Jack_Hobaugh
15:59:49 <Zakim> +Chris_Pedigo
15:59:54 <eberkower> Zakim, mute me, please
15:59:55 <Zakim> eberkower should now be muted
15:59:56 <Alan_> Alan_ has joined #dnt
16:00:02 <Zakim> +Chris_IAB
16:00:10 <Chris_M> just joined the call
16:00:15 <Zakim> + +1.323.253.aabb
16:00:43 <sidstamm> sidstamm has joined #dnt
16:00:50 <Zakim> +npdoty
16:01:06 <Zakim> + +1.303.954.aacc
16:01:10 <ninja> zakim, aabb is Ari
16:01:10 <Zakim> +Ari; got it
16:01:38 <Zakim> +kulick
16:01:39 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:01:42 <vinay> vinay has joined #dnt
16:01:43 <walter> zakim, IPcaller is me
16:01:43 <Zakim> +walter; got it
16:01:58 <ninja> zakim, aacc is Alan_IAB
16:01:58 <Zakim> +Alan_IAB; got it
16:02:17 <Zakim> +RichardWeaver
16:02:21 <Zakim> + +1.408.536.aadd
16:02:22 <ninja> zakim, who is here?
16:02:24 <Richard_comScore> Richard_comScore has joined #dnt
16:02:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ninja, eberkower (muted), Jack_Hobaugh, Chris_Pedigo, Chris_IAB, Ari, npdoty, Alan_IAB, kulick, walter, RichardWeaver, +1.408.536.aadd
16:02:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see vinay, sidstamm, Alan_, Chris_M, JackHobaugh, justin, npdoty, eberkower, RRSAgent, ninja, Zakim, hober, walter, trackbot, wseltzer
16:02:26 <vinay> zakim, aadd is vinay
16:02:26 <Zakim> +vinay; got it
16:02:38 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #dnt
16:02:49 <ChrisPedigoOPA> ChrisPedigoOPA has joined #dnt
16:02:59 <justin> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:03:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ninja, eberkower (muted), Jack_Hobaugh, Chris_Pedigo, Chris_IAB, Ari, npdoty, Alan_IAB, kulick, walter, RichardWeaver, vinay
16:03:07 <Zakim> +[CDT]
16:03:11 <justin> zakim, cdt has me
16:03:12 <Zakim> +justin; got it
16:03:19 <Zakim> +[Apple]
16:03:20 <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:03:20 <Brooks> Brooks has joined #dnt
16:03:20 <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
16:03:25 <ninja> zakim, pick a scribe
16:03:25 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose [CDT]
16:03:27 <Zakim> +Brooks
16:03:46 <Zakim> +hefferjr
16:03:48 <johnsimpson> johnsimpson has joined #dnt
16:03:51 <npdoty> scribenick: npdoty
16:04:32 <npdoty> justin: 5 issues to go over today
16:04:35 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
16:04:38 <sidstamm> Zakim, Mozilla has me
16:04:38 <Zakim> +sidstamm; got it
16:04:39 <npdoty> ... today is the end of the Last Call comments period
16:04:51 <npdoty> ... chairs meeting to talk about how to sort through comments/objections/concerns
16:04:54 <WileyS> WileyS has joined #dnt
16:05:03 <Zakim> +johnsimpson
16:05:04 <ninja> zakim, take up agendum 1
16:05:05 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Data Append and First Parties - Announcement of CfO" taken up [from ninja]
16:05:10 <npdoty> ... in the meantime, working on compliance issues (not all that many left)
16:05:11 <Zakim> +WileyS
16:05:16 <justin> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Privacy/TPWG/Change_Proposal_First_Party_Compliance
16:05:38 <npdoty> justin: first-party compliance has been under discussion for a while
16:05:40 <ninja> Call for Objections starting today
16:05:47 <npdoty> ... will go to Call for Objections starting today
16:05:58 <npdoty> ... 1) vinay (susan israel, others): doesn't limit append
16:06:24 <npdoty> ... 2) john simpson (mike): can't combine with other @@ data
16:06:31 <moneill2> moneill2 has joined #dnt
16:06:41 <npdoty> ... have delineated the options, which are now clear, send out for Call for Objections tonight
16:06:42 <justin> q?
16:06:55 <justin> zakim, who is making noise?
16:06:59 <npdoty> ... we've been doing well in avoiding having to go to Call for Objections, but in some cases may be inevitable
16:07:07 <Zakim> justin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [CDT] (45%), johnsimpson (14%)
16:07:12 <Chris_M> someone put us on hold
16:07:16 <npdoty> Zakim, mute johnsimpson
16:07:16 <Zakim> johnsimpson should now be muted
16:07:35 <ninja> zakim, take up agendum 2
16:07:35 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Context Separation" taken up [from ninja]
16:07:48 <justin> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Privacy/TPWG/Change_Proposal_Limitations_on_use_in_Third_Party_Context#Proposal_.282.29:_Prohibit_use_of_data_collected_as_any_type_of_party
16:08:06 <npdoty> justin: context separation we've been discussing a lot, we're close but wanted to check one more time whether there were changes or additional options
16:08:07 <Zakim> +Peder_Magee
16:08:08 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:08:25 <npdoty> ... the first would be no limitation at all on use of data that was collected as a first party
16:08:34 <moneill2> zakim, [IPCaller] is me
16:08:34 <Zakim> +moneill2; got it
16:08:57 <npdoty> ... Walter's proposal limits use of data collected from previous network interactions
16:09:03 <magee> magee has joined #dnt
16:09:12 <justin> q?
16:09:15 <npdoty> ... these proposals are pretty solidified now, but: ask questions, propose friendly amendments
16:09:23 <ninja> zakim, take up agendum 3
16:09:23 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Data Minimization" taken up [from ninja]
16:09:38 <justin> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Privacy/TPWG/Change_Proposals_on_data_minimization
16:09:39 <npdoty> justin: third issue is data minimization
16:10:06 <npdoty> current section http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/drafts/tracking-compliance.html#data-minimization-and-transparency
16:10:32 <johnsimpson> Apologies,sorry about my phone.  I screwed up..
16:10:49 <johnsimpson> q+
16:10:53 <npdoty> justin: mike's proposal (additional revisions not yet on the wiki?) regarding persistent identifers
16:11:07 <npdoty> ack johnsimpson
16:11:45 <npdoty> johnsimpson: status on issue-170? going to call for objections on that?
16:12:18 <moneill2> my skype conncetion is bad, I will ring back
16:12:25 <npdoty> justin: yes, different groups on that. options are now precise. will announce call for objections later today
16:12:29 <Zakim> -moneill2
16:12:31 <npdoty> johnsimpson: thanks.
16:13:21 <ninja> zakim, who is here?
16:13:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ninja, eberkower (muted), Jack_Hobaugh, Chris_Pedigo, Chris_IAB, Ari, npdoty, Alan_IAB, kulick, walter, RichardWeaver, vinay, [CDT], [Apple], Brooks, hefferjr,
16:13:25 <Zakim> ... [Mozilla], johnsimpson, WileyS, Peder_Magee
16:13:25 <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
16:13:25 <Zakim> [CDT] has justin
16:13:25 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has sidstamm
16:13:25 <Zakim> On IRC I see magee, moneill2, WileyS, johnsimpson, Brooks, ChrisPedigoOPA, dsinger, Richard_comScore, vinay, sidstamm, Alan_, Chris_M, JackHobaugh, justin, npdoty, eberkower,
16:13:26 <Zakim> ... RRSAgent, ninja, Zakim, hober, walter, trackbot, wseltzer
16:13:31 <npdoty> justin: roy had objected to the technical language of mike's proposal, but neither fielding nor mike on the call at this moment, so maybe follow up on mailing list
16:13:48 <npdoty> ... haven't heard additional proposals that would provide more flexibility. if you want to propose language, please feel free
16:13:49 <justin> q?
16:13:51 <npdoty> q+
16:14:01 <Zakim> +??P31
16:14:33 <ninja> justin, I think Mike just re-joined the call
16:14:38 <moneill2> zakim,P31 is me
16:14:38 <Zakim> sorry, moneill2, I do not recognize a party named 'P31'
16:14:52 <ninja> zakim, ??P31 is moneill2
16:14:52 <Zakim> +moneill2; got it
16:15:05 <ChrisPedigoOPA> q+
16:15:08 <moneill2> ninja, thanks
16:15:13 <justin> ack npd
16:15:16 <npdoty> npdoty: issue-233 was a proposal from Jack to use language of minimized rather than limited
16:15:24 <npdoty> q-
16:15:32 <justin> ack chris
16:15:35 <npdoty> justin: might be editorial, can just go ahead with it.
16:15:58 <JackHobaugh> I don’t have any more to offer than what is already stated in Issue-233
16:16:11 <JackHobaugh> q+
16:16:19 <justin> ack jack
16:16:44 <npdoty> npd: current language doesn't specify a type of party, so I don't think that would be a change
16:16:55 <npdoty> ChrisPedigoOPA: would be concerned about making it party-neutral
16:17:50 <npdoty> JackHobaugh: agree that "minimized" is just editorial. regarding party-neutral I think it already just talks about "a party" so I'm not sure why it was limited to third parties
16:18:06 <npdoty> q+
16:18:09 <walter> q+
16:19:23 <npdoty> justin: it's within Third Party Compliance section
16:19:36 <npdoty> JackHobaugh: could throw it open to the WG for suggestions
16:19:47 <justin> ack npd
16:19:49 <npdoty> ChrisPedigoOPA: would be a simple change to add third-party if that's what it meant anyway
16:20:26 <justin> npdoty: This is about permitted uses, so it should be pretty clear that this only applies to third parties.
16:21:40 <Chris_M> AUS 1 NED 1
16:21:50 <npdoty> justin: nick could take a look again regarding textual ambiguity
16:21:58 <npdoty> ... or if someone has a proposal to make it more clear, that would be welcome
16:22:06 <npdoty> ... seems like we're all agreed on what's intended
16:22:31 <justin> q?
16:22:31 <npdoty> action: doty to update data minimization section regarding minimized/limited and clarity about when it applies
16:22:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-453 - Update data minimization section regarding minimized/limited and clarity about when it applies [on Nick Doty - due 2014-06-25].
16:22:41 <npdoty> ack walter
16:22:50 <Zakim> -Alan_IAB
16:23:34 <npdoty> walter: because we're talking about permitted uses, clear that it's a third party issue. proportionality of data use would make sense for first party even though we wouldn't interpret that as applying to first parties
16:24:11 <ChrisPedigoOPA> I'll propose some language
16:24:38 <npdoty> justin: would be great for first parties to apply minimization/proportionality, but discussion is about clarity of this section
16:24:42 <ninja> zakim, take up agendum 4
16:24:42 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Use of "tracking" in third party compliance" taken up [from ninja]
16:24:49 <justin> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Privacy/TPWG/Change_Proposal_Tracking_Third_Party_Compliance
16:25:02 <npdoty> justin: haven't talked about this in great detail, but came up via fielding on the mailing list
16:25:22 <npdoty> ... have defined "tracking" but not really using it within TCS
16:25:24 <ninja> ISSUE-203: Use of "tracking" in third-party compliance  https://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/203
16:25:24 <trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-203 Use of "tracking" in third-party compliance.
16:25:49 <dsinger> zakim, agenda?
16:25:49 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
16:25:50 <Zakim> 1. Data Append and First Parties - Announcement of CfO [from ninja]
16:25:50 <Zakim> 2. Context Separation [from ninja]
16:25:50 <Zakim> 3. Data Minimization [from ninja]
16:25:50 <Zakim> 4. Use of "tracking" in third party compliance [from ninja]
16:25:50 <Zakim> 5. Link shorteners/ID providers [from ninja]
16:25:56 <Ari> Ari has joined #dnt
16:26:43 <npdoty> justin: dsinger had a proposal about referring to "tracking information"
16:26:44 <Zakim> -Ari
16:27:05 <npdoty> ... fielding had a proposal to instead describe exactly which tracking status values should be used
16:27:18 <Zakim> +Ari
16:27:27 <dsinger> yikes, I wrote this a year ago!
16:27:27 <justin> q?
16:27:52 <npdoty> ... is it possible to combine these two? or iterate?
16:28:10 <Zakim> -moneill2
16:28:20 <justin> q?
16:28:33 <ninja> zakim, take up agendum 5
16:28:33 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Link shorteners/ID providers" taken up [from ninja]
16:28:43 <npdoty> ... can discuss on the mailing list, rather than putting dsinger on the spot right now
16:28:46 <dsinger> yes, I think we can easily merge these two
16:28:47 <justin> https://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/97
16:29:19 <npdoty> (dsinger, I had preferred your original proposal; generally I like having the extra detail in this document to elaborate on our one sentence definition of tracking)
16:29:21 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:29:34 <moneill2> zakim, [IPCaller] is me
16:29:34 <Zakim> +moneill2; got it
16:30:03 <npdoty> justin: link shorteners/trackers -- how does this apply to them? if I click on a bit.ly link, what kind of party is the provider to an interaction?
16:30:19 <dsinger> well, either the link shortener is the first and the final target a third, or vice versa? The user will not typically be aware of one of (a) that a link shortener is in use or (b) where the link shortener will actually go.
16:30:28 <npdoty> ... I've previously argued that users are trying to get to the end page
16:30:36 <justin> q?
16:30:36 <dsinger> q+
16:30:37 <WileyS> Its very clear to a user they are about to click through their service if the URL is visible - nothing forces the user to click through to see their NY Times article.
16:31:04 <npdoty> ... Ian Fette previously had suggested otherwise (perhaps supported by Shane)
16:31:09 <justin> ack ds
16:31:36 <npdoty> dsinger: user is either unaware of where the link shortener goes to (clicked on bit.ly, don't know the end point)
16:31:41 <Zakim> +Susan_Israel
16:32:01 <npdoty> ... or alternatively, knows they're going to NYT (via anchor text) and wasn't aware of the link shortener
16:32:05 <WileyS> Crazy to me that people trust link shortners - but they are clearly the initial 1st party in the most common context
16:32:10 <npdoty> ... informative text along these lines?
16:32:48 <npdoty> q+
16:32:53 <moneill2> yest another thorny issue resulting from 1p/3p
16:33:38 <dsinger> yes, the 3rd/1st split might have been a mistake, but by the time we realized, the majority felt we were too far down that road
16:34:03 <justin> Well, it's about user intent, which isn't solved by just getting rid of 1p/3p distinction.
16:34:18 <susanisrael> susanisrael has joined #dnt
16:34:33 <npdoty> q-
16:34:49 <npdoty> npdoty: when we discussed previously, I talked with some link shortener folks
16:35:02 <dsinger> the point of getting rid of 1st/3rd would be precisely to getthe unmeasurable user intent out of the normative requirements...
16:35:06 <npdoty> ... more common cases will be first party/service providers for either the home site or the destination site
16:35:06 <ninja> q+
16:35:17 <justin> ack ninja
16:35:41 <npdoty> ... link shorteners that are somehow in the middle (no relation to either end) would not be part of an intentional interaction
16:35:58 <WileyS> Agree on redirects
16:36:08 <WileyS> +q
16:36:09 <npdoty> ninja: this is also a part of a bundle of issues regarding identity providers. not sure it's the same on all redirects
16:36:17 <npdoty> justin: what other redirects did you have in mind?
16:36:44 <susanisrael> susanisrael has joined #dnt
16:36:44 <dsinger> yes, intermediate redirects are clearly neither what I clicked on nor where I thought I was going. They are easy
16:36:46 <npdoty> ninja: for example, if a site has several redirects across multiple parties, multiple link shorteners before arriving at a newspaper article
16:36:51 <walter> q+
16:36:57 <justin> ack wiley
16:36:58 <npdoty> ack WileyS
16:37:00 <Zakim> -Susan_Israel
16:37:40 <npdoty> WileyS: search engine marketing companies are a common example here. clicking on a sponsored search result initially goes to the search engine; but sometimes an SEM before redirecting on to the advertiser
16:37:42 <Zakim> +Susan_Israel
16:37:48 <npdoty> ... in some cases that would be a service provider to the advertiser
16:38:26 <walter> I might
16:38:29 <npdoty> ... but aware of some cases where it might be a traditional third party, ad network that combines that data across different advertiser endpoints
16:38:30 <WileyS> Not me
16:38:38 <justin> ack walter
16:38:58 <npdoty> justin: someone to write text to explain these situations?
16:39:07 <moneill2> i could help walter
16:39:33 <npdoty> walter: don't think users are aware of the link shortener based on the URL
16:40:05 <ninja> justin, I will try to dig out your language
16:40:11 <justin> q?
16:40:47 <npdoty> justin: might be old language (from me or others) on issue-97 you can find
16:41:02 <npdoty> ... haven't discussed in a while, it would be good to get text proposals
16:41:06 <npdoty> q+
16:41:50 <ninja> ISSUE-99: https://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/99
16:41:50 <trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-99 How does DNT work with identity providers?.
16:42:06 <npdoty> npdoty: I'm not aware of the specific use case for identity provider
16:42:52 <npdoty> justin: if you're authenticated via a social network to a newspaper website
16:43:13 <walter> I can see that
16:43:17 <walter> As in, that makes sense
16:43:18 <justin> q?
16:43:21 <npdoty> ... if you're authenticating, seemed clear that would be a first-party involvement
16:43:21 <npdoty> q-
16:43:51 <npdoty> topic: aob
16:43:59 <Zakim> -Ari
16:44:03 <npdoty> justin: send some follow-up emails regarding proposals
16:44:13 <npdoty> ... will send one Call for Objections later today
16:44:28 <Chris_M> where's the link for last call on TPE?
16:44:31 <Zakim> -RichardWeaver
16:44:33 <Zakim> -Peder_Magee
16:44:33 <Zakim> -kulick
16:44:33 <johnsimpson> thanks
16:44:35 <Zakim> -hefferjr
16:44:36 <Zakim> -Chris_Pedigo
16:44:37 <Zakim> -Susan_Israel
16:44:37 <Chris_M> thanks
16:44:38 <johnsimpson> johnsimpson has left #dnt
16:44:38 <Zakim> -vinay
16:44:40 <Zakim> -WileyS
16:44:40 <Zakim> -walter
16:44:41 <Zakim> -moneill2
16:44:41 <Zakim> -[CDT]
16:44:42 <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
16:44:42 <Zakim> -Jack_Hobaugh
16:44:46 <Zakim> -johnsimpson
16:44:47 <npdoty> ... sounds like dsinger had possible updates on 203
16:44:54 <npdoty> ... and walter to follow up regarding link shortening
16:44:55 <Zakim> -Chris_IAB
16:44:57 <Zakim> -[Apple]
16:45:05 <npdoty> justin: reminder, please get Last Call comments on TPE in today
16:45:06 <justin> ChrisM, provide comments to this email address: public-tracking-comments@w3.org
16:45:19 <npdoty> ... thanks all
16:45:21 <ninja> justin, npdoty, I take the action on me to get the CfO out today
16:45:26 <npdoty> [adjourned]
16:45:33 <justin> And here is the Last Call document: http://www.w3.org/TR/tracking-dnt/
16:45:38 <Zakim> -npdoty
16:45:48 <npdoty> Zakim, list attendees
16:45:48 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Ninja, +1.646.654.aaaa, eberkower, Jack_Hobaugh, Chris_Pedigo, Chris_IAB, +1.323.253.aabb, npdoty, +1.303.954.aacc, Ari, kulick, walter,
16:45:51 <Zakim> ... Alan_IAB, RichardWeaver, +1.408.536.aadd, vinay, justin, dsinger, Brooks, hefferjr, sidstamm, johnsimpson, WileyS, Peder_Magee, moneill2, Susan_Israel
16:45:55 <npdoty> rrsagent, please draft the minutes
16:45:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/18-dnt-minutes.html npdoty
16:46:21 <npdoty> rrsagent, bye
16:46:21 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/18-dnt-actions.rdf :
16:46:21 <RRSAgent> ACTION: doty to update data minimization section regarding minimized/limited and clarity about when it applies [1]
16:46:21 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/18-dnt-irc#T16-22-31-1