14:53:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
14:53:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/17-wai-wcag-irc
14:53:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:53:52 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #wai-wcag
14:53:54 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
14:53:54 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
14:53:55 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
14:53:55 <trackbot> Date: 17 June 2014
14:54:05 <AWK> Chair: AWK
14:54:09 <AWK> agenda?
14:54:52 <AWK> regrets+ Kathy Wahlbin, Kathleen Anderson, Barry Johnson
14:55:18 <AWK> agenda+ Upcoming calls. No call July 1.
14:55:46 <AWK> agenda+ Cognitive Task Force Report https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/wiki/Main_Page#Reports
14:56:03 <AWK> agenda+ June 10 Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/10thJune2014/
14:56:41 <AWK> agenda+ Review of open actions and issues.  http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/ http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/issues/
14:57:00 <AWK> agenda+ Review of comments https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Comments_Needing_Responses
14:57:15 <AWK> agenda+ Start walking through WCAG SC for pros/cons/improvements: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2
14:58:51 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has now started
14:58:58 <Zakim> + +1.617.766.aaaa
14:59:17 <Sailesh> Sailesh has joined #wai-wcag
14:59:25 <AWK> zakim, aaaa is AWK
14:59:25 <Zakim> +AWK; got it
14:59:44 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
14:59:55 <Zakim> +Sailesh_Panchang
15:00:15 <Joshue> Joshue has joined #wai-wcag
15:00:22 <Wilco> Wilco has joined #wai-wcag
15:00:54 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag
15:01:21 <Zakim> +??P11
15:02:02 <Ryladog> Ryladog has joined #wai-wcag
15:02:03 <Lisa_Seeman> Lisa_Seeman has joined #wai-wcag
15:02:07 <Zakim> +Marc_Johlic
15:02:17 <Zakim> +??P20
15:02:29 <AWK> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see AWK, David_MacDonald, Sailesh_Panchang, ??P11, Marc_Johlic, Michael_Cooper
15:02:42 <Zakim> + +31.30.239.aabb
15:02:46 <David> David has joined #wai-wcag
15:02:47 <Joshue> zakim, agenda?
15:02:47 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
15:02:49 <Zakim> 1. Upcoming calls. No call July 1. [from AWK]
15:02:49 <Zakim> 2. Cognitive Task Force Report https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/wiki/Main_Page#Reports [from AWK]
15:02:49 <Zakim> 3. June 10 Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/10thJune2014/ [from AWK]
15:02:50 <Zakim> 4. Review of open actions and issues.  http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/ http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/issues/ [from AWK]
15:02:50 <Zakim> 5. Review of comments https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Comments_Needing_Responses [from AWK]
15:02:50 <Zakim> 6. Start walking through WCAG SC for pros/cons/improvements: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2 [from AWK]
15:02:51 <Wilco> zakim, i am +31
15:02:51 <Zakim> +Wilco; got it
15:03:38 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:03:47 <Joshue> zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue
15:03:47 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
15:03:56 <MichaelC> regrets: Kathleen_Anderson, Barry_Johnson, Kathy_Wahlbin
15:03:59 <Zakim> +Katie_Haritos-Shea
15:04:01 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2014AprJun/0227.html
15:04:27 <AWK> Zakim, agenda?
15:04:27 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
15:04:29 <Zakim> 1. Upcoming calls. No call July 1. [from AWK]
15:04:29 <Zakim> 2. Cognitive Task Force Report https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/wiki/Main_Page#Reports [from AWK]
15:04:29 <Zakim> 3. June 10 Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/10thJune2014/ [from AWK]
15:04:29 <Zakim> 4. Review of open actions and issues.  http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/ http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/issues/ [from AWK]
15:04:30 <Zakim> 5. Review of comments https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Comments_Needing_Responses [from AWK]
15:04:31 <Zakim> 6. Start walking through WCAG SC for pros/cons/improvements: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2 [from AWK]
15:04:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/17-wai-wcag-minutes.html MichaelC
15:05:01 <AWK> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List
15:05:03 <Joshue> Chair: AWK
15:05:32 <AWK> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see AWK, David_MacDonald, Sailesh_Panchang, Lisa_Seeman, Marc_Johlic, Michael_Cooper, Wilco, Joshue, Katie_Haritos-Shea
15:06:00 <marcjohlic> scribe:  marcjohlic
15:06:13 <AWK> Zakim, take up item 1
15:06:13 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Upcoming calls. No call July 1." taken up [from AWK]
15:06:55 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:06:55 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:07:57 <AWK> Zakim, next item
15:07:57 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Cognitive Task Force Report https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/wiki/Main_Page#Reports" taken up [from AWK]
15:07:58 <marcjohlic> AWK:  Most of US are typically out for July 4th week - no call scheduled for July 1
15:09:16 <marcjohlic> AWK:  Update on Cognitive Task Force by Lisa Seeman
15:09:33 <marcjohlic> LS:  Moving along - slow progress but there is progress
15:09:37 <AWK> June Cognitive TF report: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/wiki/Reports#June_2014_-_Task_Force_Report
15:09:46 <marcjohlic> LS:  2 Important issues:
15:10:20 <marcjohlic> LS:  1)  Trying to make a schedule for when we meet w/ WCAG WG - felt the most effective way would be to divide into chunks.  This will give us useful deadlines
15:10:40 <marcjohlic> LS:  Want to divide gap analysis - divide into 2 chunks (possibly 3)
15:11:04 <marcjohlic> LS:  First chunk is a background review of disabilities and challenges they face with different ICTs
15:12:00 <marcjohlic> LS:  Aim is to have first chunk ready for informal review (possibly just by chairs)
15:12:12 <Joshue> +q
15:12:17 <marcjohlic> LS:  6 weeks later to have more of an internal review by WCAG WG and PF
15:12:41 <AWK> ack j
15:12:41 <Joshue> ack me
15:13:22 <marcjohlic> JOC:  Did you pick user group types - or divide them - what was the methodology?
15:13:56 <marcjohlic> LS:  Wanted to make them as diverse as possible - but also expertise and passion inside of the group
15:14:13 <jon_avila> jon_avila has joined #wai-wcag
15:14:30 <marcjohlic> LS:  Sorted by severity
15:14:47 <marcjohlic> LS:  Diverse in functionality
15:15:36 <marcjohlic> LS:  Brain function
15:16:24 <Zakim> + +1.571.389.aacc
15:16:34 <jon_avila> zakim, I am aacc
15:16:34 <Zakim> +jon_avila; got it
15:16:53 <marcjohlic> LS:  We've hit on the large groups - learning disabilities, dementia
15:16:59 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
15:16:59 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:17:11 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:17:11 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:18:11 <marcjohlic> LS:  2)  Main work at the moment is to work on the gap analysis..  but also working on 1) Description of the different brain functions
15:18:44 <marcjohlic> LS:  and 2)  We're working on a page of "techniques".
15:19:16 <marcjohlic> LS:  The idea is we don't want to lose ideas that come up in the discussions.  So we want a place where folks can jot things down as they come up with them.
15:19:40 <marcjohlic> LS:  Big discussion on what that document should look like.
15:19:53 <marcjohlic> LS:   Open to feedback from WCAG WG on the structure of this page
15:20:27 <Lisa_Seeman> http://accessibility.athena-ict.com/TechniquesCOGA.html
15:20:53 <Joshue> ack me
15:21:50 <marcjohlic> LS:  Again main point is so that we don't lose ideas right now as these things are being discussed.
15:22:38 <marcjohlic> LS:  Not a TF review document at this point
15:24:47 <marcjohlic> AWK:  Will probably want to look at existing techniques at some point to see where these cognitive techniques can fit in
15:25:30 <marcjohlic> LS:  So first chunk is looking at the different user groups (dyslexia etc) - and describing them and their challenges in using ICT.  Part of the gap analysis..  stage 1
15:25:42 <marcjohlic> JOC:  Any sense of a time frame on gap analysis?
15:26:34 <marcjohlic> LS:  Hoping to send first chunk in about 6 weeks to 2 months - just for you to review.  Full review for working group in about 3 months
15:26:47 <marcjohlic> LS:  And another 3 months for the next chunk
15:27:21 <marcjohlic> LS:  So altogether in 6 months a complete gap analysis
15:28:11 <marcjohlic> LS:  Everything is on our wiki - so always feel free to have a look to see the current state
15:29:08 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
15:29:08 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:29:09 <marcjohlic> JOC:  We'll touch base about the gap analysis toward the end of July and see where we're at - hopefully something for working group to review early august.
15:29:26 <Zakim> -Lisa_Seeman
15:29:36 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:29:36 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:29:36 <AWK> Zakim, next item
15:29:37 <Zakim> agendum 3. "June 10 Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/10thJune2014/" taken up [from AWK]
15:30:55 <marcjohlic> AWK:  Anyone else getting 408 errors when going to W3C wiki / comment pages
15:31:07 <marcjohlic> Wilco:  Also getting them
15:31:18 <marcjohlic> AWK:  Have to reload pages several times
15:31:44 <marcjohlic> MC:  Will forward on to System's teams to look into 408 errors / issues
15:33:24 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
15:33:24 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:33:27 <marcjohlic> TOPIC:  1. Pull request #27 Proposed edit for ACTION-1378
15:36:13 <Joshue> ack me
15:36:39 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:36:39 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:38:40 <marcjohlic> RESOLUTION:  Accept the pull request as proposed and edit the pull request per Josh's response.
15:39:14 <marcjohlic> TOPIC:  2. Pull request #28 ACTION-184 Example of validating multiple controls
15:40:13 <Joshue> MarcJ: I'd just like to see something better.
15:40:24 <Joshue> AWK: Are you happy with an everything is good message?
15:40:28 <Joshue> MJ: Yup
15:41:23 <marcjohlic> AWK:  I may have changed the example when I pulled it into GitHub
15:41:45 <marcjohlic> AWK:  Will take a look at fixing the example so that it does not give a 404 error when fields are correct.
15:42:01 <Joshue> ack me
15:42:10 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:42:10 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:43:29 <marcjohlic> MC:  Original example (above) seems to be working
15:43:34 <Joshue> +q
15:43:39 <Joshue> ack me
15:43:47 <marcjohlic> RESOLUTION:  Accept pull request 28
15:44:44 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:44:44 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:44:50 <marcjohlic> TOPIC:  3. New technique: Creating a conforming alternate version for web pages which are designed to be responsive / progressively enhanced
15:45:19 <Joshue> ack me
15:46:06 <marcjohlic> JOC:  Still wasn't clear - some concerns about the framing of it.
15:47:33 <marcjohlic> AWK:  Larger point of this technique is that if you're publishing web pages to a large variety of device types - specifically making different versions for ipods, minis, android, desktop - so that you have a lot of action going on.  The suggestion is people may not have resources to test all of the versions.
15:48:25 <marcjohlic> AWK:  Suggestion is that you want to ensure you're doing everything you can making all of your versions accessible, the way to reach conformance is by saying:  "This is the version we are fully accessible with - and it can be reached by all other versions".
15:48:32 <David> q+
15:48:39 <marcjohlic> AWK:  Concerns are that the other version may get left behind
15:49:33 <marcjohlic> JOC:  As an overall would like description tidied up - like the edits that AWK has made.
15:50:06 <jamesn_> jamesn_ has joined #wai-wcag
15:50:37 <marcjohlic> JOC:  Example 1 seemed to be a toggle version using javascript - was that the intent?
15:50:56 <jamesn_> rrsagent, make minutes
15:50:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/17-wai-wcag-minutes.html jamesn_
15:51:10 <marcjohlic> AWK:  Yes, that is correct - that is how Example 1 is working.  Instead of just taking you to a different version, it is using a script to strip away the enhancements to bring you back to the simpler, pre-enhanced version
15:51:17 <AWK> ack d
15:51:18 <Joshue> ack dav
15:51:22 <marcjohlic> DM:  Few thoughts
15:52:06 <jamesn_> i'll try number 3
15:52:24 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
15:52:48 <Joshue> s/overall would/overall approach I would
15:53:38 <Joshue> +q
15:53:41 <Joshue> ack me
15:53:48 <marcjohlic> DM:  We usually separate out progressive enhancement from responsive design
15:55:00 <marcjohlic> AWK:  Talking about progressive enhancement and responsive design as being non-intersecting.
15:55:08 <Joshue> +q
15:55:55 <AWK> ack j
15:55:58 <marcjohlic> AWK:  My reading on this one is that it is using progressive enhancement to id the target browser and making some enhancements to the base html to arrive at a responsive design for that target
15:56:28 <marcjohlic> JOC:  I see a lot of responsive design (as david pointed out) being at the CSS layer and not scripting
15:57:00 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
15:57:00 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:57:07 <marcjohlic> JOC:  Don't see them as mutually exclusive - may be not real deficit in having htem together, but had initial concern with them being conflated - but may be unfounded?
15:57:37 <jon_avila> According to wikipedia page they are related concepts.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsive_web_design
15:57:50 <Joshue> thanks jon
15:57:51 <jamesn_> q+
15:58:47 <AWK> ack sai
15:58:57 <marcjohlic> s/having htem/having them
15:59:14 <marcjohlic> Sailesh:  Agree with David
16:00:06 <Wilco> +1
16:00:12 <marcjohlic> Sailesh:  They are two different concepts - so maybe there should be 2 separate techniques
16:00:16 <Joshue> ack james
16:00:16 <AWK> ack ja
16:00:21 <jamesn_> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20120103/C29
16:00:23 <marcjohlic> JN:  We already have a CSS technique for this - C29
16:00:33 <Joshue> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG-TECHS/C29.html
16:00:34 <AWK> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/C29.html
16:00:42 <marcjohlic> JN:  Using a style switcher for conforming version
16:00:54 <marcjohlic> DM:  It's not quite the same
16:01:15 <Joshue> +q
16:01:18 <marcjohlic> Sailesh:  If we could pull progressive enhancement language into C29
16:01:40 <marcjohlic> Sailesh:  Why does this technique talk about both PE and RD?
16:02:12 <marcjohlic> DM:  I think it's a lot of CSS - most of it is CSS changing.  May use scripting to control it, but it's CSS
16:03:33 <marcjohlic> JA:  I sent a link from wikipedia - the concepts aren't the same but related
16:04:00 <marcjohlic> JA:  I think they're related but i understand how they could be confusing to the reader.  I don't have a strong opinion on this.
16:04:02 <Joshue> ack me
16:04:14 <marcjohlic> JN:  Could we just remove "responsive" from the title?
16:04:41 <marcjohlic> JOC:  Feel it could firm this technique up if it didn't mention "responsive".  My hunch is that it should be left out.
16:05:44 <marcjohlic> Sailesh:  Would argue to keep responsive and get rid of "progressive enhancement"
16:06:34 <jon_avila> q+
16:06:39 <marcjohlic> JOC:  Progressive enhancement (PE) has been around, whereas Responsive Design (RD) is relatively new.
16:06:42 <jon_avila> q?
16:07:21 <AWK> ack jon_avila
16:07:29 <marcjohlic> AWK:  So the answer is to remove PE or RD?  Just don't have them both in the same technique because they are different?
16:08:27 <marcjohlic> JA:  Based on reading the proposed technique it talks about the pre-enhanced technique.  Would be better for PE.  I would say we have a separate technique for RD.  You have to make the same decisions for RD - "which version do you test".
16:08:33 <Joshue> +1 to Jon
16:08:44 <marcjohlic> JA:  Goes back to the same conformance claims
16:09:01 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
16:09:01 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
16:10:03 <marcjohlic> DM:  At some point I do want to create a technique in meeting zoom requirements with RD
16:10:15 <marcjohlic> DM:  Maybe in RD technique we talk about this
16:10:53 <Joshue> +q
16:11:52 <marcjohlic> AWK:  I'm not sure how this technique would be taken apart - it all seems intertwined.
16:12:00 <Joshue> ack me
16:12:26 <marcjohlic> JOC:  Differing opinions on what RD actually is
16:12:44 <marcjohlic> JOC:  Sounds like we're all coming at this from different angles
16:12:59 <Joshue> ack sail
16:13:02 <marcjohlic> JOC:  In terms of progressing with this - I'd like to do whatever will create the least confusion
16:14:13 <marcjohlic> Sailesh:  Primary focus should be RD - but how you attain it - via CSS, or PE can be different
16:15:04 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
16:15:04 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
16:15:56 <marcjohlic> AWK:  Feel we're getting hung up on a few words here
16:16:14 <jon_avila> q+
16:18:12 <jamesn_> q+
16:18:17 <Joshue> ack jon
16:18:24 <marcjohlic> JOC:  We should get Alistair in on a call as part of this discussion
16:18:37 <marcjohlic> JA:  Test procedure would have to change too if we remove PE
16:20:13 <Joshue> +1 to changing pre-enhanced conforming alt vers language
16:20:22 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
16:20:22 <Zakim> I see jamesn_ on the speaker queue
16:20:23 <Joshue> ack jam
16:20:43 <jamesn_> I can't support having a link to http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/ in this description at all
16:22:03 <jon_avila> q?
16:23:08 <Joshue> +q
16:23:48 <Joshue> ack me
16:24:26 <AWK> q+
16:25:03 <jamesn_> q+
16:25:10 <Joshue> ack awk
16:26:44 <Joshue> ack jame
16:29:08 <marcjohlic> RESOLUTION:  Leave open - Josh will contact Alistair to see if we can discuss next week on the call
16:31:18 <Zakim> -AWK
16:31:19 <Zakim> -Joshue
16:31:19 <Zakim> -jon_avila
16:31:21 <Zakim> -Sailesh_Panchang
16:31:21 <Zakim> -Katie_Haritos-Shea
16:31:22 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
16:31:23 <Zakim> -Wilco
16:31:25 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
16:31:25 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
16:31:32 <marcjohlic> zakim, list attendees
16:31:32 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.617.766.aaaa, AWK, David_MacDonald, Sailesh_Panchang, Marc_Johlic, Michael_Cooper, Lisa_Seeman, +31.30.239.aabb, Wilco, Joshue,
16:31:35 <Zakim> ... Katie_Haritos-Shea, +1.571.389.aacc, jon_avila, James_Nurthen
16:31:46 <marcjohlic> rrsagent, make minutes
16:31:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/17-wai-wcag-minutes.html marcjohlic
16:31:54 <Sailesh> Sailesh has joined #wai-wcag
16:33:23 <Zakim> -Marc_Johlic
16:33:25 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has ended
16:33:25 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.617.766.aaaa, AWK, David_MacDonald, Sailesh_Panchang, Marc_Johlic, Michael_Cooper, Lisa_Seeman, +31.30.239.aabb, Wilco, Joshue, Katie_Haritos-Shea,
16:33:25 <Zakim> ... +1.571.389.aacc, jon_avila, James_Nurthen
17:04:52 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #wai-wcag
17:28:55 <Sailesh> Sailesh has joined #wai-wcag