07:00:32 RRSAgent has joined #chairing 07:00:32 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/17-chairing-irc 07:00:33 Zakim has joined #chairing 07:00:46 Zakim, this will be 24873 07:00:46 ok, koalie; I see Team_ChTr()4:00AM scheduled to start in 60 minutes 07:01:37 koalie has changed the topic to: 17-Jun Chair Training: Human Dimension (chaals) https://www.w3.org/wiki/Guide/HumanDimension 07:03:26 chaals has joined #chairing 07:23:38 agenda? 07:23:54 agenda+ introductions (<1 min please) 07:24:16 agenda+ Group Dynamics - fatigue, timing 07:24:58 agenda+ The chair 07:25:42 agenda+ what if we reconsider… - decisions 07:27:12 agenda+ what next? 07:55:13 nigel has joined #chairing 07:57:25 Team_ChTr()4:00AM has now started 07:57:32 +[IPcaller] 07:57:55 zakim, [ip is me 07:57:55 +chaals; got it 07:58:17 yosuke has joined #chairing 07:58:30 +nigel 07:59:08 Present+ Nigel 07:59:17 Chair: Chaals 07:59:35 rrsagent, make log public 07:59:40 +??P2 07:59:59 kerry has joined #chairing 08:00:01 zakim, ??p2 is Lisa 08:00:01 +Lisa; got it 08:00:19 LisaSeeman has joined #chairing 08:00:20 Present+ Lisa 08:00:41 scribenick: koalie 08:00:49 gmandyam has joined #chairing 08:01:02 +koalie 08:01:03 Andy has joined #chairing 08:01:14 xiaoqian has joined #chairing 08:01:23 +[IPcaller] 08:01:23 present+ 1-Coralie 08:01:48 zakim, [ip is yosuke 08:01:48 +yosuke; got it 08:01:58 zakim, call xiaoqian-mobile 08:01:58 ok, xiaoqian; the call is being made 08:02:00 +Xiaoqian 08:02:02 present+ 1-Yosuke 08:02:12 + +61.4.097.8.aaaa 08:02:33 zakim, aaaa is Kerry 08:02:33 +Kerry; got it 08:02:41 Present+ 1-Kerry 08:02:53 +gmandyam 08:03:03 +[IBM-Hursley] 08:03:11 present+ 1-Giri 08:03:22 zakim, [IBM is me 08:03:22 +Andy; got it 08:03:23 mute me 08:03:34 zakim, mute lisa 08:03:34 Lisa should now be muted 08:05:18 present+ 1-Cindy 08:05:35 Zakim, agenda? 08:05:35 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda: 08:05:36 1. introductions (<1 min please) [from chaals] 08:05:36 2. Group Dynamics - fatigue, timing [from chaals] 08:05:36 3. The chair [from chaals] 08:05:36 4. what if we reconsider… - decisions [from chaals] 08:05:36 5. what next? [from chaals] 08:05:42 Zakim, take up item 1 08:05:42 agendum 1. "introductions (<1 min please)" taken up [from chaals] 08:06:00 Chaals: We may be recorded, if you do not wish your comment to be recorded, please, write /me in IRC 08:06:03 Zakim, close this item 08:06:03 agendum 1 closed 08:06:04 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 08:06:04 2. Group Dynamics - fatigue, timing [from chaals] 08:06:07 Zakim, next item 08:06:07 agendum 2. "Group Dynamics - fatigue, timing" taken up [from chaals] 08:06:21 Andy_Coleman: XML Query WG co-chair, recently appointed 08:06:37 Giri: Geolocation WG co-chair, recently appointed 08:07:18 zakim, unmute lisa 08:07:18 Lisa should no longer be muted 08:07:26 Kerry_Taylor: SSN XG a couple years ago, will be appointed @@ in the future 08:07:39 s/@@/to a new WG/ 08:07:45 Lisa_Seeman: @@ accessibility 08:07:56 Nigel_Megitt: co-chair Timed Text WG 08:07:59 zakim, mute lisa 08:07:59 Lisa should now be muted 08:08:10 Cindy: Team Contacts of Web Apps WG 08:08:15 s/@@/TF on cognitive 08:08:24 Yosuke_Funahashi: Co-chair of Web and TV IG 08:08:36 zakim, take up agendum 2 08:08:36 agendum 2. "Group Dynamics - fatigue, timing" taken up [from chaals] 08:08:37 Zakim, close this item 08:08:37 agendum 2 closed 08:08:38 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 08:08:38 3. The chair [from chaals] 08:09:03 -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Guide/HumanDimension The driving document 08:09:10 Topic: Group Dynamics - fatigue, timing 08:10:32 chaals: I chose fatigue and timing topics on purpose 08:11:02 ... hard to concentrate more than one hour 08:11:08 ... you can take small breaks 08:11:18 ... I plan to take a break after one hour into this call 08:11:28 ... We may use or not the second hour 08:11:33 ... But we'll take a break 08:11:39 ... No-one is forced to take a break 08:11:54 ... I hope to stop after an hour 08:12:01 ... I use that break A LOT 08:12:22 ... We often find that groups get wound up on details and lose focus 08:12:33 ... When I chair meetings, I reset the focus on the agenda 08:12:58 ... My experience is that if people have not found agreement in one hour, they're unlikely to find it for an hour and 15 minutes and so on 08:13:17 ... If people are close to agreement, I find that either during the break, or that evening, they solve the problem on their own 08:13:29 ... and next time we have the discussion we find we've come to consensus. 08:13:37 q? 08:13:55 chaals: I hope not to be giving a lecture for an hour; please do use the queue 08:14:15 Topic: The Chair 08:14:42 chaals: A lot of the things I know about chairing I learned by sitting in meetings and watching chairs 08:14:55 ... and thinking at time "oh, if I'm chair, I don't want to do this" 08:15:20 ... It's valuable to collect lists of "don't do that" 08:15:32 ... Are there things that Chairs do that drive you nuts? 08:15:38 ... speak up 08:15:46 q+ 08:15:50 ack nigel 08:16:02 q+ to say "replying to each speaker, before the next person in queue gets to say anything" 08:16:11 Nigel: When a chair allows someone to talk for too long without giving much information 08:16:14 ack me 08:16:14 chaals, you wanted to say "replying to each speaker, before the next person in queue gets to say anything" 08:16:16 chaals: Yes 08:16:32 chaals: One of the things I find annoying is a chair that replies to every speaker 08:16:49 chaals: it takes a lot of time and isn't always useful 08:17:06 q+ 08:17:07 q+ 08:17:12 ack and 08:17:13 ack andy 08:17:41 Zakim, lisa is me 08:17:41 +LisaSeeman; got it 08:17:42 Andy: Outside W3C I've experienced a chair @@not very helpful for getting things done 08:17:54 ack lis 08:18:05 s/@@/monstering the group and acting more like a president than a chair / 08:18:38 Lisa: One of the things that bug me is when something from previous meetings comes up again dispite this having been minuted and the chair lets the re-hashing happen 08:18:43 ... chair should give orientation 08:18:59 s/dispite/despite/ 08:19:04 ... and suggest to revisit only if there are issues 08:19:10 zakim, mute lisa 08:19:10 LisaSeeman should now be muted 08:19:12 Experiences a chair that acts as a President with advisers rather than as an 'equal' as far as decision making is concerned 08:19:15 q? 08:19:16 zakim muke me 08:19:43 q+ to complain about chiars who don't know the tools 08:19:48 ack me 08:19:48 chaals, you wanted to complain about chiars who don't know the tools 08:20:06 chaals: Another frustration is about Chairs unaware of tools we have, and how to use them 08:20:22 -> http://www.w3.org/2014/Talks/0423-tools-rrs/#(1) W3C tools for chairs (last chair training session) 08:20:36 chaals: Here's a link to Ralph's tools session in previous chair training 08:21:01 chaals: Also, chairs who don't manage to keep the agenda 08:21:38 chaals: I'm happy with changing an agenda during the meeting, but it can be frustrated when you travel or get up at 3 in the morning and an agenda is hi-jacked 08:21:50 ... agenda needs to be fair to anybody 08:22:18 chaals: There are other things that Chairs do wrong, and we, I in particular, are humans and volunteers; it's not surprising we don't get everything right 08:22:24 ... but it's important we try to set an example 08:22:31 ... I will come back to the topic perhaps 08:22:42 ... There is another part of the difficulty: giving your own opinion 08:22:51 Topic: Giving your personal opinion 08:23:07 chaals: in a WG, we are possibly our company's representative 08:23:31 ... balancing the way we chair the group and the way we represent our own perspective is quite difficult 08:23:46 chaals: Andy, you mentioned a chair 08:24:10 Andy: Yes, in a government body, supposedly organised the same way; the chair thought himself as the leader 08:24:17 ... and dismissed opinions 08:24:35 chaals: One of the issues is that chairs reasonably have strong personality 08:24:47 ... they're appointed because they're deemed to be able to leading the group 08:24:53 ... How to balance that? 08:24:56 q+ 08:24:59 q+ 08:25:14 Nigel: So far, I've tried to stay quiet as long as possible 08:26:06 q+ to say I try to use the queue strictly, especially on myself. 08:26:10 ack ni 08:26:19 ... treading the tricky line between summarising and telling what the decision is 08:26:29 ack li 08:26:46 】【‘ 08:26:59 Lisa: what I try to remember to do is to say when I'm speaking my opinion as a member of the group 08:27:13 s//】【‘/ 08:27:28 ack me 08:27:28 chaals, you wanted to say I try to use the queue strictly, especially on myself. 08:27:32 Lisa: At the end of the conversation, I ask if anyone would like to comment@@ 08:27:36 zakim, mute me 08:27:36 LisaSeeman should now be muted 08:27:36 mute li 08:27:57 chaals: I do something similar and use the queue strictly 08:28:12 ... I try to distinguish me giving an opinion and me being chair 08:28:31 ... this goes back to what Nigel said, trying to make resolutions really clear 08:28:49 ... the difference between providing and being chair: I'll try to clarify what people have said 08:29:18 ... I'll do that as an individual, but if we're reaching a conclusion point, I'll try to reach a resolution 08:29:31 ... a statement that people can agree, or disagree with 08:29:59 ... write that down as a clear resolution; separately from the things I said as a member of the group 08:30:21 kerry has left #chairing 08:30:23 ... Chairs who don't clearly state the things we agreed to do so you can't object is a problem I've had with a number of chairs 08:30:36 s/can't/can/ 08:30:52 Zakim, agenda? 08:30:52 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda: 08:30:53 3. The chair [from chaals] 08:30:53 4. what if we reconsider… - decisions [from chaals] 08:30:53 5. what next? [from chaals] 08:31:00 Zakim, take up item 4 08:31:00 agendum 4. "what if we reconsider… - decisions" taken up [from chaals] 08:31:04 Zakim, drop item 3 08:31:04 agendum 3, The chair, dropped 08:31:15 chaals: This is the point that Lisa mentioned 08:31:27 ... How do you get a group to make a decision? 08:31:31 ... this is really tricky 08:31:37 ... as Nigel said, chairing is difficult 08:32:08 ... the cracks of what is difficult, when the goas is to get consensus, if how to get consensus as opposed to discussing forever 08:32:12 s/goas/goal/ 08:32:16 q+ 08:32:26 ack lisa 08:32:29 ... and how Lisa mentioned, to prevent re-hashing past discussion 08:32:45 Lisa: Our 1st deliverabal: gap analysis 08:32:53 s/abal/able/ 08:32:54 ... what can be done to help people have better access to the Web 08:33:12 ... for such a vast topic, there are numerous topics 08:33:21 kerry has joined #chairing 08:33:21 ... Also, educating the group 08:33:44 Lisa: issues on a document, summary of different technologies, so people can refer back to them 08:33:49 ... we use wiki a lot 08:34:18 q+ 08:34:35 Lisa: Any topic that comes up I try to make sure there's a logical place on the wiki to save it 08:34:43 q+ to say we set a 10 day post-resolution 'cooling off' period 08:34:47 Lisa: so people ought to be on the same page 08:34:49 q- later 08:35:08 Lisa: Also, I give my group my @@ and try to be available for them, especially for newbies 08:35:20 s/@@/Skype handle etc 08:35:25 zakim, mute me 08:35:25 LisaSeeman should now be muted 08:35:25 ... people can re-open discussion, but often they need to be filled in. 08:35:31 ack n 08:35:31 nigel, you wanted to say we set a 10 day post-resolution 'cooling off' period 08:35:34 q- 08:35:48 Nigel: We have a statement in our charter that I often reiterate 08:36:17 Nigel: There is a ten-day period after resolutions are made that allows people to object, catch up, raise issues, etc. 08:36:24 Nigel: That's another tool 08:36:38 [enabling email decisions] 08:36:45 q+ 08:36:56 q+ 08:36:58 Nigel: if people are late, I can use this tool (I have yet to) 08:37:00 ack ch 08:37:11 chaals: as an AC rep, I object to charters which do not enable that 08:37:20 chaals: I think it's a great tool. 08:37:48 ack kerr 08:37:49 chaals: The ability to stop recycling discussion depends on having things written clearly written, and in obvious places, like Lisa said. 08:37:52 ack k 08:38:03 Kerry: I have to leave, thanks very much! 08:38:03 -Kerry 08:38:08 chaals: Thanks for coming! 08:38:11 q+ 08:38:23 [Kerry Taylor leaves] 08:38:24 ack ch 08:39:01 chaasl: I had not heard the cooling off expressed as such as Nigel mentioned it. And writing things down makes sense. 08:39:10 ... there's another side of recycling discussion 08:39:17 ... when someone brings a new perspective, 08:39:32 q+ to say that with issues we sometimes close them off and then allow new issues to be raised against the resolution in the previous issue 08:39:39 ack ni 08:39:39 nigel, you wanted to say that with issues we sometimes close them off and then allow new issues to be raised against the resolution in the previous issue 08:39:43 ... is there a way, any tool (other than memory) to highlight it as new perspective? 08:39:46 ack ni 08:40:19 Nigel: We sometimes close issues and a new issued is raised on a solution that closed a previous issue 08:40:21 q+ 08:40:35 ... It created a multi-layer thing and makes it a bit harder for the Chair 08:40:42 s/created/creates/ 08:40:58 Nigel: Very often it's a new thing that somebody thought of. 08:41:03 ack me 08:41:11 chaals: I like that, actually 08:41:23 ... one of the thing that's attractive is that it lets you close issues 08:41:32 ... but provides a way to @@ 08:41:44 s/@@/go back to the original discussion 08:41:50 ... so when you go back to the discussion you can go back to the old discussion. 08:42:30 Zakim, agenda? 08:42:30 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda: 08:42:31 4. what if we reconsider… - decisions [from chaals] 08:42:31 5. what next? [from chaals] 08:42:46 q+ 08:42:48 Zakim, close item 4 08:42:48 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, koalie 08:42:51 ack li 08:43:02 Zakim, next item 08:43:02 agendum 5. "what next?" taken up [from chaals] 08:43:32 q+ to suggest "I don't need your input" as a topic 08:43:41 Lisa: Having people to create the deliverable they signed up for, in time or not too late, is really hard 08:43:45 ack me 08:43:45 chaals, you wanted to suggest "I don't need your input" as a topic 08:43:52 zakim, mute me 08:43:52 LisaSeeman should now be muted 08:44:52 chaals: How do we use the next 15 minutes into this hour? 08:45:03 agenda+ Meeting timelines with volunteers 08:45:20 chaals: going one by one. 08:45:54 Zakim, agenda? 08:45:54 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda: 08:45:55 5. what next? [from chaals] 08:45:55 6. Meeting timelines with volunteers [from chaals] 08:45:59 Zakim, close this item 08:45:59 agendum 5 closed 08:46:00 I see 1 item remaining on the agenda: 08:46:00 6. Meeting timelines with volunteers [from chaals] 08:46:07 Zakim, take up item 6 08:46:07 agendum 6. "Meeting timelines with volunteers" taken up [from chaals] 08:46:12 q+ 08:46:13 chaals: I'd love a solution to this! 08:46:16 ack n 08:46:20 q+ to add a problem... 08:46:31 Nigel: I've had this problem recently; two deliverables with overlapping timelines 08:46:48 ... different people more keen to progress on one more than the other deliverable 08:47:02 agenda+ Editors who don't listen to the group 08:47:06 ... I've begun a standard practice at every meeting to prioritise agenda items 08:47:21 ... when I do that, people who're keen on something want to bump things up the queue 08:47:34 ... our problem is that we don't have enough time 08:47:45 ... we break the one-hour rule, as a result 08:47:53 ... next time, I'll suggest we have a break after 1 hour 08:47:58 agenda+ action reviews and similar "admin-heavy/traditional" approaches 08:48:14 ... slightly tangantial: when people commit to a timeline and don't deliver output to meet that 08:48:20 ... is there anything that can be done? 08:48:29 q? 08:48:43 ack me 08:48:43 chaals, you wanted to add a problem... 08:48:50 ... waiting for something be be more perfect? or bring down the axe and publish? 08:49:22 chaals: recently, it took 6 months to deliver 3 days of work, but I didn't have 3 days until finally I got it done 08:49:42 ... the problem with "let's ship now" is if you are too strict in applying that, people will ignore what you've done 08:49:56 ... there is a real judgement to make 08:50:34 ... one approach we've tried with some success: offer to other people to help edit a spec and move it forward 08:51:00 q? 08:51:02 q+ 08:51:07 ack li 08:51:07 ... the problem with that is you had a problem and may end up with two problems 08:51:46 Lisa: I've tried to ask for a draft in 6 weeks for something we want to publish in 3 months 08:52:02 ... a 6-week deadline for a chunk is doable 08:52:03 q+ to +1 this idea of small manageable chunks, and then talk about balancing busy people and deliberate blocking 08:52:12 ... you can't ignore a 6-week deadline. 08:52:13 ack me 08:52:13 chaals, you wanted to +1 this idea of small manageable chunks, and then talk about balancing busy people and deliberate blocking 08:52:16 zakim, mute me 08:52:16 LisaSeeman should now be muted 08:52:28 chaals: Breaking it down into manageable sized pieces is something I like a lot 08:52:49 chaals: I'd be interested to know more about how do you find that work or not 08:52:57 chaals: Another snenario: 08:53:19 ... sometimes you have busy peopls, and sometimes in controversial groups, people going to the group just to block the work 08:53:41 ... volunteers on one hand, and people trying to block progress on the other 08:53:58 ... taking up work, requesting extensions and blocking the group for months 08:54:04 ... How do you tell the difference? 08:54:08 ... and, what do you do? 08:54:19 q+ 08:54:22 ack n 08:54:22 ack ni 08:55:03 Nigel: the only way to find out whether they're busy or blockers is to know them 08:55:07 ... talk to them outside of meetings 08:55:20 ... the two behavious seems to be undistinguishable. 08:55:22 q+ 08:55:25 s/vious/viours/ 08:55:29 ack ch 08:55:35 chaals: Knowing the people is really helpful 08:55:41 s/know them/know them as individuals 08:55:51 ... Frankly, I, as a Chair, just make judgement calls. 08:56:13 ... Figuring out what's going on depends on knowing people and their goals 08:56:22 ... tools I use to get closure is impose deadlines 08:56:32 ... problem I have is: it's easy to be seen as unfair 08:56:44 ... in some cases, I'm more or less strictly imposing the deadline. 08:57:04 .. or the group does, based on the general impression 08:57:07 q+ 08:57:15 ... That works unless people start stacking the group. 08:57:33 ... one of the issues I mentioned already: if you impose deadlines too strictly, you lose the people that you really want 08:57:43 chaals: That's one of the things I throw in the balance 08:57:51 ack li 08:57:58 ... I don't have an answer, but how fast do you need to enforce a decision? 08:58:00 agenda? 08:58:27 Lisa: One thing seems to be effective: I switched people around 08:58:59 ... putting a person who's done their part really well on another part 08:59:24 ... there were lots of good reasons to do it in any way, but it may be helpful generally and for more deliverables 08:59:35 q+ time check - do we want to do a second half? 08:59:38 zakim, mute me 08:59:38 LisaSeeman should now be muted 08:59:40 q? 08:59:57 chaals: we've been going on for 55 minutes 09:01:00 chaals: let's take 5 or 10 minutes 09:01:04 ... and resume for a second half 09:01:10 ... I want 10 unless people want 5 09:01:39 ... let's reconvene in 9 minutes. 09:01:41 RRSagent, make minutes 09:01:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/17-chairing-minutes.html koalie 09:01:55 agenda+ people who work outside the group 09:02:16 agenda+ ignoring the chair / chairing from the floor 09:06:41 -yosuke 09:08:30 +[IPcaller] 09:11:06 Q+ 09:11:11 -nigel 09:11:26 Zakim, agenda? 09:11:26 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda: 09:11:28 6. Meeting timelines with volunteers [from chaals] 09:11:28 7. Editors who don't listen to the group [from chaals] 09:11:28 8. action reviews and similar "admin-heavy/traditional" approaches [from chaals] 09:11:28 9. people who work outside the group [from chaals] 09:11:28 10. ignoring the chair / chairing from the floor [from chaals] 09:11:30 ack lisa 09:11:42 agenda+ starting on time, and other timing issues 09:11:45 Lisa: on blockers 09:11:57 +nigel 09:12:20 ... if you have serious blockers and if you have an issue, a fantastic tool: make a task force on fixing that issue 09:12:51 ... if you've got your one or two people who block in that TF, the environment is going to be hostile for them 09:13:03 +nigel.a 09:13:18 zakim, mute me 09:13:18 LisaSeeman should now be muted 09:13:25 Zakim, close this item 09:13:25 agendum 6 closed 09:13:26