18:53:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
18:53:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/17-aapi-irc
18:53:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
18:53:52 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
18:53:54 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:53:54 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
18:53:55 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:53:55 <trackbot> Date: 17 June 2014
18:54:40 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has now started
18:54:47 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
18:54:56 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:54:56 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
18:55:03 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:55:03 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:55:12 <clown> chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:55:21 <clown> agenda: this
18:55:26 <clown> agenda+ News: Heart beat publication released last Thu (Jun 12).
18:55:35 <clown> agenda+ News: aria-hasannotation and aria-annotatedby (https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26106).
18:55:46 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1371/ISSUE-618 (Cynthia): IE and single selection container when item becomes unselected.
18:55:54 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-980 (David): Define mappings for managed aria related states.
18:56:03 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1408 (Joseph): Email jason kiss to ask him if he could write a section that describes api differences.
18:56:11 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1409 (Joanie):  Monitor progress of new position/level API.
18:56:20 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1419 (Joanie):  Validity of aria-pressed="mixed".
18:56:29 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1448 (Joanie):  Listbox selection independent of checkbox state.
18:56:38 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1450 (Joseph):  Provide link to uia express for accessibility api reference in section 3 of caam.
18:56:47 <clown> agenda+ Bryan's question re:  activedescendant and IE: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jun/0059.html
18:56:56 <clown> agenda+ https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23
18:57:05 <clown> agenda+ be done.
18:58:16 <davidb> davidb has joined #aapi
18:58:24 <Zakim> +Joanie_Diggs
18:58:46 <clown> zakim, save agenda
18:58:52 <Zakim> ok, clown, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/17-aapi-agenda.rdf
18:58:58 <Zakim> +marcosc
18:59:19 <davidb> Zakim, marcosc is David_Bolter
18:59:19 <Zakim> +David_Bolter; got it
19:00:58 <joanie> Scribenick: joanie
19:01:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/17-aapi-minutes.html clown
19:01:21 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
19:01:21 <Zakim> agendum 1. "News: Heart beat publication released last Thu (Jun 12)." taken up [from clown]
19:02:01 <davidb> davidb has joined #aapi
19:02:42 <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/core-aam-1.1/
19:02:42 <joanie> JS: The heartbeat publication was released last Thursday.
19:02:52 <joanie> JS: The document of interest of us is above.
19:02:59 <joanie> JS: Notice the title change.
19:03:10 <joanie> JS: It is no longer the User Agent Implementation Guide
19:03:22 <clown> www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/
19:03:25 <joanie> JS: Here's the spec (above)
19:03:51 <joanie> I am discoed
19:04:07 <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/core-aam-1.1/#mapping_role_table
19:04:13 <Zakim> -Joanie_Diggs
19:04:27 <Zakim> +Joanie_Diggs
19:04:39 <Zakim> + +1.415.624.aaaa
19:05:17 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
19:05:58 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
19:05:58 <Zakim> sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not see a party named 'Bryan_Garaventa'
19:06:11 <clown> zakim, aaaa is Bryan_Garaventa
19:06:11 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa; got it
19:06:40 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
19:06:40 <Zakim> ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
19:07:06 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:07:06 <Zakim> agendum 2. "News: aria-hasannotation and aria-annotatedby (https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26106)." taken up [from clown]
19:07:29 <joanie> JS: We had a great discussion yesterday about MS request for two new aria properties.
19:07:50 <joanie> JS: If you have a piece of text which has an annotation (author's comment, footnote, etc.)
19:08:01 <joanie> JS: You use the hasannotation to specify the type
19:08:14 <joanie> JS: And annotatedby for the annotation text.
19:08:30 <joanie> JS: A resolution to create spec text was made.
19:08:36 <joanie> JS: We'll also need mappings.
19:08:57 <joanie> JS: UIA already has mappings
19:09:17 <joanie> JS: But the other platform accessibility APIs do not have this in place yet.
19:09:26 <joanie> JD: You mean the role or the relationship?
19:09:29 <joanie> JS: The relationship.
19:09:38 <joanie> DB: Are there any restrictions on what an annotation can be?
19:09:40 <joanie> JS: No
19:09:44 <joanie> DB: Good
19:09:53 <joanie> JS: One value is "true"
19:10:06 <joanie> JS: Annotated by is the ID
19:10:08 <cyns> cyns has joined #aapi
19:10:22 <clown> action-1454?
19:10:22 <trackbot> action-1454 -- James Craig to Add aria-hasannotation attribute with values: comment, footnote, endnote, reference, insertion, deletion, modification, true, false, more where aria-hasannotation has only one value at a time -- due 2014-06-23 -- OPEN
19:10:23 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1454
19:10:50 <clown> issue-655?
19:10:50 <trackbot> issue-655 -- Consider creating annotations roles for comments, spell-check errors, etc -- closed
19:10:50 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/655
19:10:50 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
19:10:58 <cyns> zakim, microsoft has me
19:10:58 <Zakim> +cyns; got it
19:11:35 <clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2014AprJun/0161.html
19:11:50 <joanie> JS: (Reads types of annotations)
19:11:56 <joanie> JS: And James N requested more
19:12:00 <joanie> DB: What is true?
19:12:11 <joanie> JS: We have an annotation, but don't know what type it is.
19:12:41 <joanie> JS: And the annotatedby points to the annotation
19:13:15 <joanie> JS: One thing Chris said is the way the implemented it in Word and PowerPoint online is not put them in the DOM until the user requests them.
19:13:27 <joanie> CS: And there's a larger issue around virtual content
19:13:48 <joanie> CS: All the people from big companies have this issue
19:14:03 <joanie> JS: Dojo anticipated this problem with grid.
19:14:21 <joanie> s/DB: What is true?/BG: What is true?/
19:14:45 <joanie> CS: It is less clear how to address the issue in Word
19:15:18 <joanie> CS: We have handled it in the client app, but it's harder for the web app
19:15:53 <joanie> CS: It's different in the annotations working group. They are talking about annotations between sites. This is within the document.
19:16:08 <joanie> CS: So there is some overlap (e.g. tagging text ranges)
19:16:14 <joanie> CS: But the use cases are different
19:18:01 <joanie> DB: We won't want to shove this into object attributes.
19:18:06 <joanie> CS: Agrees
19:18:09 <joanie> JD: Agrees
19:18:22 <joanie> DB: I sort of like the idea of describing what it has and then actually pointing to it.
19:18:32 <joanie> JS: There's one other thing which they came up with which I'm still mulling over
19:18:43 <joanie> JS: You can have multiple notes pointing to the same text
19:18:57 <joanie> JS: They handle this with multiple spans.
19:20:42 <joanie> DB: Where did the range discussion happen?
19:20:54 <joanie> CS: There was some at Microsoft and some at the annotations working group
19:21:45 <joanie> DB: I'll talk to Alex and Marco about this.
19:21:54 <joanie> Zakim, next item.
19:21:54 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ACTION-1371/ISSUE-618 (Cynthia): IE and single selection container when item becomes unselected." taken up [from clown]
19:22:02 <clown> action-1371?
19:22:02 <trackbot> action-1371 -- Cynthia Shelly to Investigate what ie does for single selection container when item becomes unselected, and create a test case (issue-618). -- due 2014-06-10 -- CLOSED
19:22:02 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1371
19:22:25 <joanie> JS: The action is closed.
19:22:32 <joanie> CS: I think I sent it to the public list.
19:22:56 <clown> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2014Jun/0007.html
19:23:41 <joanie> JS: And you noted that we need to create a test suite and harness for 1.1 so you can put this test in.
19:23:59 <joanie> CS: I was going to wait a couple of weeks before raising this with Michael as he's busy at the moment.
19:27:27 <clown> action-1457?
19:27:27 <trackbot> action-1457 -- Cynthia Shelly to Ask Michael to create 1.1 testharness -- due 1970-01-01 -- OPEN
19:27:27 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1457
19:27:44 <joanie> trackbot, associate action-1457 with issue-618
19:27:44 <trackbot> action-1457 (Ask Michael to create 1.1 testharness) associated with issue-618.
19:28:15 <joanie> JS: So we'll leave the issue open, but I won't check it until the action comes due.
19:28:58 <joanie> JS: Related aside, there will be no meeting on 1 July.
19:29:05 <joanie> Zakim, next item.
19:29:05 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ACTION-980 (David): Define mappings for managed aria related states." taken up [from clown]
19:29:19 <joanie> action-980?
19:29:19 <trackbot> action-980 -- David Bolter to Define mappings for managed aria related states: aria-setsize, aria-posinset, arla-level, focused, focusable with reference to section 5.5 bullet 1 of the UAIG. -- due 2014-06-07 -- OPEN
19:29:19 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/980
19:31:54 <joanie> Zakim, next item.
19:31:54 <Zakim> agendum 5. "ACTION-1408 (Joseph): Email jason kiss to ask him if he could write a section that describes api differences." taken up [from clown]
19:32:01 <joanie> JS: I've not done this yet.
19:32:04 <clown> action-1408?
19:32:04 <trackbot> action-1408 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Send email to jason kiss to ask him if he could write an aapi section that describes api differences. -- due 2014-06-10 -- OPEN
19:32:04 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1408
19:32:13 <joanie> JS: My thought is to wait until Jason starts joining our meetings.
19:32:29 <joanie> JS: I don't get the sense that this is a high-priority. Does anyone disagree?
19:32:48 <joanie> JS: The HTML people want a section in our document outlining the differences between the accessibility APIs.
19:33:16 <joanie> CS: I remember us having something similar to that and we agreed to remove it a couple of years ago.
19:33:24 <joanie> DB: I agree this is not high-priority.
19:35:00 <joanie> (Some discussion about automated testing)
19:35:13 <joanie> JS: WebKit has this.
19:35:23 <joanie> DB: I think someone at Google is doing this as well.
19:35:42 <joanie> CS: There's also a client application that drives the browser.
19:36:28 <joanie> DB: It would be nice to make something platform agnostic
19:36:40 <joanie> CS: James C and James N were talking about something similar
19:37:17 <davidb> yeah
19:37:37 <davidb> (getcomputed* [name,role...])
19:38:03 <joanie> CS: I remember their wanting to have an intermediate layer.
19:38:28 <joanie> JS: Something like an acid test would be very nice.
19:39:36 <joanie> DB: This might be something TPG could do.
19:41:14 <joanie> DB: We're using our xpcom stuff. I can get you a document that explain how our testing works.
19:41:37 <joanie> CS: I would love some automation for our testing harness.
19:41:45 <joanie> DB: What I'm talking about tests our abstraction.
19:46:40 <joanie> DB: This cannot be a priority for my team until we iron out other things.
19:47:15 <joanie> Zakim, next item.
19:47:15 <Zakim> agendum 6. "ACTION-1409 (Joanie):  Monitor progress of new position/level API." taken up [from clown]
19:47:27 <clown> action-1409?
19:47:27 <trackbot> action-1409 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Monitor progress of bug against atk in gnome's bugzilla requesting new position, level, and other api be added (https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727453) -- due 2014-04-15 -- OPEN
19:47:27 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1409
19:48:59 <joanie> JD: There is no update. The issue has stalled on the GNOME side.
19:49:10 <joanie> JD: I will ping Alejandro Piñeiro tomorrow.
19:50:14 <joanie> Zakim, next item.
19:50:14 <Zakim> agendum 7. "ACTION-1419 (Joanie):  Validity of aria-pressed="mixed"." taken up [from clown]
19:50:22 <clown> action-1419?
19:50:22 <trackbot> action-1419 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Investigate the validity of aria-pressed=mixed -- due 2014-04-08 -- OPEN
19:50:22 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1419
19:52:02 <joanie> JD: Having spoken with Joseph about this issue, it seems there are use cases for it. Therefore, while it might not be ideal UI, it is possible UI. So from the point of view of ARIA we need to keep supporting this.
19:52:11 <davidb> +1
19:52:12 <joanie> JS: I've closed this issue with a note.
19:52:15 <joanie> Zakim, next item.
19:52:15 <Zakim> agendum 8. "ACTION-1448 (Joanie):  Listbox selection independent of checkbox state." taken up [from clown]
19:52:23 <clown> action-1448?
19:52:23 <trackbot> action-1448 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Investigate whether or not listbox selection can really be independent of checkbox state. due 10 june. -- due 2014-06-10 -- OPEN
19:52:23 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1448
19:52:58 <joanie> JD: This was discussed at the ARIA meeting.
19:53:31 <joanie> JS: That's right. And after a thorough discussion at that meeting, the conclusion was to put checkable back in 1.1 for listboxes.
19:53:37 <joanie> JS: So I will close this item.
19:53:44 <joanie> Zakim, next item.
19:53:44 <Zakim> agendum 9. "ACTION-1450 (Joseph):  Provide link to uia express for accessibility api reference in section 3 of caam." taken up [from clown]
19:53:54 <clown> ACTION-1450?
19:53:54 <trackbot> ACTION-1450 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Provide link to uia express for accessibility api reference in section 3 of caam -- due 2014-06-11 -- OPEN
19:53:54 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1450
19:53:59 <joanie> JS: This was raised last week by Cynthia.
19:54:03 <joanie> JS: I will do this.
19:54:14 <joanie> JS: What this is is that section 3 of the mapping guide is the glossary.
19:54:28 <joanie> JS: There's a section in there about UIA express.
19:54:33 <joanie> JS: There is no link in there.
19:54:38 <joanie> JS: Cynthia gave us a link.
19:54:43 <joanie> JS: The link will go into both.
19:54:56 <joanie> JS: The document processor we use for re-spec uses special notation for doing references.
19:55:02 <joanie> JS: Typing it in is like this:
19:55:20 <clown> [[UIAEXPRESS]]
19:55:39 <joanie> JS: And then re-spec consults a database and pulls in the URL for you.
19:55:52 <joanie> JS: UIA express is not in that database (yet).
19:55:58 <joanie> JS: So I'll have to add it.
19:56:07 <joanie> JS: Due date will be the 8th.
19:56:58 <joanie> Zakim, next item.
19:56:58 <Zakim> agendum 10. "Bryan's question re:  activedescendant and IE: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jun/0059.html" taken up [from clown]
19:57:23 <joanie> JS: Bryan brought this up on the PF public list.
19:57:45 <joanie> JS: Maybe I've got the wrong one.
19:58:16 <joanie> s/JS: Maybe I've got the wrong one.//
19:58:46 <joanie> JS: You seem to be saying aria-activedescendant is working correctly with Jon's example with IE.
19:58:53 <joanie> JS: (Reads from email)
19:59:07 <joanie> BG: Basically someone brought this up to me.
19:59:17 <joanie> BG: There was a bug where it didn't work in IE 11.
19:59:27 <joanie> BG: My main question was about the tree construct.
19:59:32 <Zakim> -Bryan_Garaventa
19:59:41 <joanie> BG: It was providing weird feedback and I wasn't sure if it was allowed.
19:59:49 <joanie> JS: We just lost Bryan.
20:00:04 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
20:00:05 <Zakim> -David_Bolter
20:00:06 <joanie> Group concludes to revisit this next week.
20:00:18 <Zakim> -Joanie_Diggs
20:00:40 <joanie> Zakim, part
20:00:40 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanie_Diggs, David_Bolter, +1.415.624.aaaa, Bryan_Garaventa, cyns
20:00:40 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
20:01:33 <joanie> present:  Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanie_Diggs, David_Bolter, Bryan_Garaventa, Cynthia_Shelly
20:01:46 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop