16:54:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:54:46 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/16-aria-irc
16:54:48 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
16:54:48 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:54:50 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:54:50 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
16:54:51 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:54:51 <trackbot> Date: 16 June 2014
16:54:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
16:55:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
16:56:42 <SteveF> SteveF has joined #aria
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16:57:50 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM has now started
16:57:57 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:58:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
16:58:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jun/0091.html
16:58:35 <Zakim> +??P5
16:58:44 <Zakim> +??P11
16:58:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, ??P5 is Janina
16:58:57 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
16:59:09 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:59:32 <SteveF> zakim, IPcaller is me
16:59:32 <Zakim> +SteveF; got it
17:00:39 <Zakim> + +1.541.678.aaaa
17:01:11 <Zakim> + +1.603.882.aabb
17:01:11 <MichaelC> zakim, aaaa is Matt_King
17:01:12 <Zakim> +Matt_King; got it
17:01:21 <MichaelC> zakim, aabb is Joanie_Diggs
17:01:21 <Zakim> +Joanie_Diggs; got it
17:01:38 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
17:02:22 <mattking> mattking has joined #aria
17:02:47 <clown> clown has joined #aria
17:03:21 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:03:22 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:03:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> scribe: mattking
17:03:32 <mattking> scribe: matt_king
17:03:37 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:03:43 <Zakim> +Jon_Gunderson
17:03:46 <cgallello> cgallello has joined #aria
17:03:55 <mattking> scribe: mattking
17:04:03 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
17:04:15 <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
17:04:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, Michael_Cooper, SteveF, Matt_King, Joanie_Diggs, [Microsoft], Jon_Gunderson, [GVoice]
17:04:16 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:04:17 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
17:04:26 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:04:26 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:04:55 <MichaelC> zakim, Microsoft is Chris_Gallello
17:04:55 <Zakim> +Chris_Gallello; got it
17:05:19 <mattking> TOPIC:  ARIA in HTML 5
17:06:21 <mattking> JS: html5 2nd last call will happen this week and then could go to Proposed Recommendation after that
17:06:44 <mattking> JS: We are not sure that the strong semantics are testable as stated.
17:06:48 <clown> http://htmlwg.org/heartbeat/WD-html5-20140617/dom.html#sec-strong-native-semantics
17:07:06 <mattking> JS: So perhaps it should be informational in html5 and then normative at a later time.
17:07:24 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:07:46 <mattking> JS: Perhpas the authoring guidance should be normative and the UA guidance should be informative
17:08:10 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
17:08:12 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #aria
17:08:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:08:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
17:08:21 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
17:08:38 <LJWatson> zakim, who ison the phone?
17:08:38 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, LJWatson.
17:08:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack
17:08:49 <LJWatson> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:08:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, Michael_Cooper, SteveF, Matt_King, Joanie_Diggs, Chris_Gallello, Jon_Gunderson, Joseph_Scheuhammer, [IPcaller], James_Nurthen
17:09:04 <LJWatson> zakim, [IPcaller] is LJWatson
17:09:04 <Zakim> +LJWatson; got it
17:09:49 <mattking> RS: We can test the restrictions on which roles on which elements
17:10:11 <mattking> RS: those most important part to test; can be done with validators.
17:10:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:10:34 <mattking> RS: We definitely need a MUST on those restrictions.
17:10:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack
17:10:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:10:53 <Zakim> + +1.215.518.aacc
17:10:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack richardschwerdtfeger
17:10:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:11:22 <andrewlarkin> andrewlarkin has joined #aria
17:11:43 <clown> http://htmlwg.org/heartbeat/WD-html5-20140617/dom.html#sec-implicit-aria-semantics
17:13:21 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:13:30 <SteveF> http://stevefaulkner.github.io/html-mapping-tests/
17:17:15 <jamesn> q+ to say doesn't the "restrictions" column in the HTML5 spec limit what happens when we get new roles in ARIA?
17:18:31 <mattking> SF: Strong native semantics  define author restrictions. Implicit  semantics define UA requirements for mapping native elements to ARIA roles.
17:19:16 <mattking> SF: Over weekend wrote  test cases for implicit semantics.
17:19:38 <mattking> SF: which are currently MMUSTS in html5 spec
17:20:17 <mattking> FS: dialog and details are in 5.1 not 5
17:20:51 <mattking> RS: however, separater and image could be  a problem.
17:21:17 <mattking> SF: Most of the issues are not contraversial; requirements are clear.
17:22:33 <mattking> SF: My test table currently includes some elements with no implementation reqs; I will remove those. I will also remove things not in html5.
17:22:52 <mattking> SF: If you take those things out, about 90% pass.
17:24:31 <mattking> SF: Need to correct heading mapping in last call.
17:25:03 <mattking> RS: surprised link didn't pass.
17:27:31 <mattking> SF: the link element was mistakenly mapped to the link role in aria.
17:27:58 <mattking> SF: This the link ement, not the anchor element.
17:28:55 <jamesn> q?
17:29:26 <mattking> JS: If Steve gets the bugs filed and they get resolved, what should the status be? Normative or informative?
17:29:53 <mattking> RS: If they get resolved, we could keep it as normative.
17:31:45 <mattking> SF: for the limited requirements that html 5 makes, we are probably safe keeping this normative. Keep in mind, there are many other requirements that the html5 spec does not cover, eg, name calculation.
17:32:40 <mattking> JS: Should we mark this at risk?
17:33:33 <mattking> SF: Because number issues is small, we should aim for getting them resolved. We do not have to put the whole section at risk due to these issues.
17:34:30 <mattking> SF: In some cases there is "no role" but there is still an attribute, eg read-only.
17:35:24 <mattking> RS: When we say there is no mapping, that means there is no required mapping, right?
17:36:14 <jamesn> q+ to ask if we can still log bugs against all of this because there seem to be things missing
17:36:31 <SteveF> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/dom.html#concept-role-none
17:36:50 <mattking> SF: That link points to the meaning of "no role" in html 5.
17:37:15 <mattking> SF: I will clean up the table and then we can have another look.
17:37:51 <mattking> JS: Should I withdraw the pref to put this at risk?
17:38:10 <MichaelC> ack me
17:39:13 <mattking> MC: It does not hurt to continue marking it at risk. That can push getting the defects resolved.
17:39:27 <mattking> RS: Does that force them to go back to last call?
17:39:46 <mattking> MC: You have to say what will be done if risk condition is met.
17:41:00 <mattking> JS: The risk response could be to mark it informative rather than striking it.
17:43:13 <mattking> RS: we need to make sure the info that is there is accurate even if it is informative.
17:43:32 <mattking> RS: For example, the heading not having a mapping.
17:43:47 <mattking> SF: It is still accurate, it just means there is not a required mapping.
17:44:15 <mattking> SF: 5.1 spec still maps Hn to heading and aria-level n
17:45:58 <mattking> SF: The vast majority pass. We could just pull the specific assertions that  fail by making those at risk.
17:46:08 <mattking> JS: we have onhours to do that.
17:46:41 <mattking> s/onhours/only hours/
17:47:41 <mattking> SF: I will provide Janina with the list of assertions that are potentially at risk.
17:47:47 <Zakim> -SteveF
17:48:15 <MichaelC> ack me
17:48:27 <mattking> JN: how does it work when we add new roles to ARIA?
17:49:14 <mattking> JN: What about using role none in place of presentation?
17:49:32 <mattking> JN: does that specifically have to be written into the html 5 spec?
17:51:06 <mattking> JN: The way this is written in html5, we can not use new roles because the way this is written.
17:51:57 <mattking> MC: We could have them make it clear that it is referencing aria 1.0 and then add some language that would give us some wiggle room for later versions.
17:52:13 <SteveF> html is in a dev continuous cycle they can be added to 5.1/5.2 etc
17:52:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:52:59 <mattking> JN: Who is reviewing this. Brian posted several issues.
17:54:56 <jamesn> uh oh
17:55:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> i am now on mute
17:55:59 <clown> issue-655?
17:55:59 <trackbot> issue-655 -- Consider creating annotations roles for comments, spell-check errors, etc -- open
17:55:59 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/655
17:56:01 <mattking> TOPIC: Issue 655, anotation
17:56:05 <cgallello> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/655
17:56:09 <mattking> issue-655?
17:56:09 <trackbot> issue-655 -- Consider creating annotations roles for comments, spell-check errors, etc -- open
17:56:09 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/655
17:56:15 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
17:56:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/16-aria-minutes.html janina
17:56:31 <cgallello> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2014AprJun/0161.html
17:57:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2014AprJun/0161.html
18:00:11 <mattking> CG: attributes on annotated elements and attribs on anotation elements are described in the e-mail post.
18:00:26 <clown> q+ to ask/suggest that aria-annotationtype is a global attribute
18:00:31 <jamesn> can we add an annotation type of "moreinfo"?
18:00:37 <jamesn> q-
18:00:56 <mattking> CG: An onotated element would preserve role of the element; the annotation is an attrib.
18:01:53 <clown> <span aria-annotationtype="moreinfo"> … ?
18:02:02 <mattking> JN: Can we have an annotation type of something like "more info"?
18:02:29 <mattking> RS: I would like something other than "true"; something like "author defined".
18:03:49 <Zakim> -Chris_Gallello
18:03:49 <cgallello> I lost audio
18:04:08 <mattking> RS: for aria-annotationtype, proposing that instead of "true" we have a value like "Custom".
18:04:22 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
18:04:24 <mattking> JN: Proposing another like "MoreInfo"
18:05:59 <mattking> MK: Could make it aria-hasannotation then true makes sense
18:06:09 <mattking> CG: Could be aria-annotation
18:09:49 <clown> <span aria-hasannotation="comment"  aria-annotatedby="foo"> …. <p id="foo">This is the annotations</p>
18:09:50 <clown> ?
18:10:13 <mattking> CG: aria-hasannotation well say if there is an annotation and its type. This is on the element that is annotated.
18:10:31 <mattking> CG: aria-annotatedby would point to the annotation.
18:13:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> <span aria-hasannotation=“insertion”><span aria-hasannotation="comment"  aria-annotatedby="foo">Some text</span></span> …. <p id="foo">
18:14:10 <mattking> CG: Annotations may not be in the DOM at the time doc is loaded, eg, Word online may have ref to a footnote but foot note is loaded on demand.
18:14:55 <cgallello> <span aria-hasannotation="comment footnote" aria-annotatedby="commentspan1 footnotespan1">
18:14:59 <mattking> CG: could put multiple annotation types on the aria-hasannotation attrib
18:15:15 <mattking> and the multiple ids and they would need to be in same order.
18:15:22 <mattking> CG: that was proposed.
18:15:27 <cgallello> <span aria-hasannotation="comment " aria-annotatedby="commentspan1"> <span aria-hasannotation="footnote" aria-annotatedby="footnotespan1">
18:16:07 <mattking> CG: alternatively could wrap w/multiple spans
18:17:34 <mattking> RS: Better to use the layered spans
18:18:39 <mattking> MK: If you have a space delimted list, then making a mod, e.g., deleting onw of the annotations, would require modifying the attrib, which would be unreliable.
18:19:39 <mattking> RS: do we need a false?
18:19:44 <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-invalid
18:20:02 <mattking> Joanie: Convenient for scripting for turning it off; equals undefined.
18:20:55 <mattking> RESOLUTION: s/Joanie:/CS:/
18:21:25 <mattking> s/Joanie:/CS:/
18:23:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: add aria-hasannotation attribute with values: comment, footnote, endnote, reference, insertion, deletion, modification, true, false, more where aria-hasannotation has only one value at a time
18:24:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> action: jcraig add aria-hasannotation attribute with values: comment, footnote, endnote, reference, insertion, deletion, modification, true, false, more where aria-hasannotation has only one value at a time
18:24:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1454 - Add aria-hasannotation attribute with values: comment, footnote, endnote, reference, insertion, deletion, modification, true, false, more where aria-hasannotation has only one value at a time [on James Craig - due 2014-06-23].
18:24:31 <clown> Note that the email for that action will go to just the private list.
18:29:49 <mattking> RS: should it refer to one or multiple refs in aria-annotatedby?
18:30:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: aria-annotatedby where it takes IDREFS as a value and must only be applied when that same element has aria-hasannotation
18:30:46 <richardschwerdtfeger>  Action: jcraig add aria-annotatedby where it takes IDREFS as a value and must only be applied when that same element has aria-hasannotation
18:30:53 <SteveF> janina:rich http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Jun/0045.html
18:31:10 <SteveF> results updated and at risk email sent
18:31:13 <MichaelC> ack me
18:31:40 <MichaelC> actio: jcraig to add aria-annotatedby where it takes IDREFS as a value and must only be applied when that same element has aria-hasannotation
18:31:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: jcraig to add aria-annotatedby where it takes IDREFS as a value and must only be applied when that same element has aria-hasannotation
18:31:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1455 - Add aria-annotatedby where it takes idrefs as a value and must only be applied when that same element has aria-hasannotation [on James Craig - due 2014-06-23].
18:32:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: galello provide defintions in action 1454 for each of the annotation types
18:32:33 <trackbot> Error finding 'galello'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
18:33:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: gallello provide defintions in action 1454 for each of the annotation types
18:33:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1456 - Provide defintions in action 1454 for each of the annotation types [on Christopher Gallello - due 2014-06-23].
18:33:31 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
18:33:38 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
18:33:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: close issue 655 with actions 1454-1456
18:34:38 <clown> FWIW:  bugzilla about annotaions for mapping guides:  https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26106
18:34:41 <mattking> rrsagent, make minutes
18:34:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/16-aria-minutes.html mattking
18:35:25 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
18:35:42 <Zakim> -Jon_Gunderson
18:35:51 <Zakim> -LJWatson
18:35:53 <Zakim> - +1.215.518.aacc
18:35:55 <Zakim> -Joanie_Diggs
18:35:57 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
18:35:59 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:35:59 <mattking> zakim, bye
18:35:59 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
18:36:01 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Michael_Cooper, Janina, SteveF, +1.541.678.aaaa, +1.603.882.aabb, Matt_King, Joanie_Diggs, Jon_Gunderson,
18:36:01 <Zakim> ... Joseph_Scheuhammer, Chris_Gallello, James_Nurthen, LJWatson, +1.215.518.aacc, [Microsoft]
18:36:27 <mattking> rrsagent, make minutes
18:36:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/16-aria-minutes.html mattking
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