16:45:53 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:45:53 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/12-ua-irc
16:45:55 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:45:55 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ua
16:45:57 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:45:57 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
16:45:58 <trackbot> Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:45:58 <trackbot> Date: 12 June 2014
16:46:09 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes public
16:46:09 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', allanj.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:54:35 <jeanne> rrsagent, make logs public
16:54:52 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
16:54:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/12-ua-minutes.html jeanne
16:55:08 <allanj> regrets: Eric
16:55:19 <allanj> Chair: jimAllan, KellyFord
16:57:29 <allanj> agenda+ Liaise web-apps?
16:58:26 <allanj> agenda+ Action-984 meet early at TPAC
17:00:25 <allanj> Agenda+ comments
17:00:36 <allanj> ms09 start
17:01:04 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:01:11 <Zakim> +Kim_Patch
17:01:44 <KimPatch> KimPatch has joined #ua
17:01:46 <Zakim> +Greg_Lowney
17:01:47 <Greg> Greg has joined #ua
17:02:30 <Zakim> +Jeanne
17:03:13 <Zakim> +Jim_Allan
17:04:12 <allanj> scribe: Allanj
17:05:17 <allanj> agenda?
17:06:09 <allanj> topic: Liaise other WG
17:06:34 <allanj> js: W3 creating Super Groups (CSS, Web-Apps, HTML, etc.)
17:07:02 <allanj> ... want to change the way they charter
17:08:41 <allanj> burden of review on the smaller horizontal groups.
17:09:08 <allanj> need to follow-up in CG
17:10:08 <Jan> Jan has joined #ua
17:10:22 <Jan> zakim, code?
17:10:22 <Zakim> the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan
17:10:45 <allanj> close item 1
17:10:51 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:10:54 <allanj> close item 2
17:11:07 <Jan> zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
17:11:07 <Zakim> +Jan; got it
17:11:44 <allanj> Topic: MS09 Subjectivity must be eliminated
17:12:25 <allanj> http://jspellman.github.io/UAAG-LC-Comment/
17:15:49 <Jan> http://jspellman.github.io/UAAG/UAAG20/#def-direct-command
17:17:57 <allanj> jr: we define directly
17:18:04 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:18:12 <allanj> ... focus on 2.3.1 - 3
17:18:30 <jeanne> http://jspellman.github.io/UAAG/UAAG20/#def-keyboard-command
17:18:31 <kford> kford has joined #ua
17:18:44 <allanj> ... we removed the word "important"
17:19:05 <allanj> zakim, [Microsoft] is really Kelly
17:19:05 <Zakim> +Kelly; got it
17:19:50 <Jan> http://jspellman.github.io/UAAG/UAAG20/#def-keyboard-command
17:19:51 <allanj> js: resolve differences between definitions
17:20:02 <allanj> gl: they are cross referenced
17:21:07 <allanj> gl: Command and Keyboard Command
17:21:14 <allanj> ... they are similar
17:21:21 <Greg> We have duplication/overlap between “commands : direct commands” and “keyboard command”.
17:21:54 <allanj> ... need to be merged.
17:22:12 <allanj> ... keyboard command is a subset of command. tho there is a difference
17:22:31 <allanj> gl: command is base on action taken not the input method.
17:22:41 <allanj> ... keyboard command is modality dependent
17:22:56 <allanj> ... if we just move it, won't be parallel
17:23:22 <allanj> jr: key-command should stay. and cross link
17:23:38 <allanj> ja: if we crosslink do we need any other mods?
17:24:24 <allanj> js: in 2.3.1 - move focus directly...
17:24:37 <allanj> ... may need to define directly.
17:24:45 <allanj> kp: as in one step
17:24:59 <allanj> js: hmm, 2 key combo
17:25:27 <allanj> kp: ctrl g, ctrl l is a direct command, but tab-tab is not
17:25:46 <allanj> kp: so it is a non-repeated keystroke.
17:26:03 <allanj> gl: tab is sequential nav.
17:26:37 <allanj> gl: repeatable is not so important
17:27:07 <allanj> ... regardless of current focus location, better than non-repeatable
17:27:47 <Greg> We could note that even direct commands are *somewhat* context dependent; that is, in most cases they work when focus is on anything in the window, but only apply when focus *is* in that window.
17:28:27 <allanj> ja: is direct command similar to selecting from JAWS heading list?
17:28:42 <allanj> js: do we have any mobile examples for direct nav?
17:30:03 <Greg> Examples of Direct Navigation commands in Firefox are Alt+D to move focus to the address bar, Ctrl+F to move focus to the Find field, the Home key to scroll the viewport to its top, etc.
17:30:27 <Greg> Also Alt+F displays and moves focus to the File menu.
17:31:28 <allanj> kf: links list is pretty direct. no focus involved, and can use first letter to jump through headings
17:31:51 <allanj> kp: can you use 2 letters.
17:32:03 <allanj> kf: jaws does not but it is doable
17:32:52 <allanj> jr: talking about jumping directly to elements on the screen
17:33:05 <Greg> Alt+F is actually a direct activation command, as is Ctrl+O for Open, Ctrl+S for Save, etc.
17:33:31 <allanj> ... ctrl F, start entering text, will eventually land on target...is that direct
17:34:26 <allanj> gl: is context dependent, if you have to stop and think about what you are doing, then not direct
17:34:49 <allanj> kp: several variables
17:35:11 <Greg> A command can be direct regardless of whether it takes one input or many, as long as each step is not context dependent. As Kim says, you should not have to stop to check on where the focus is at any step in the process.
17:35:46 <allanj> jr: mousekeys sub actions, 1 5 6 go for a link
17:36:05 <allanj> kp: if you have to think between commands not direct
17:36:50 <allanj> jr: nav system is direct if allows focus to move to an item without passing through other similar items
17:38:06 <allanj> kp: if navigating to a specific section, then 2 commands, section list, then find appropriate section.
17:38:24 <allanj> gl: other taxonomies, prefix navigation.
17:38:41 <allanj> kp: similar to browsing vs searching.
17:39:12 <allanj> question: what is direct navigation
17:39:58 <allanj> jr: how many steps are involved in a direct command
17:39:59 <jeanne> The real issue is to address MS09 "It is highly debatable as to which navigation methods are considered as "directly" navigable. "
17:40:54 <jeanne> type written macro, keyboard shortcut is directly
17:41:01 <allanj> kp: a macro is direct, keyboard short cut is direct, tab is not
17:41:41 <allanj> ... typing a T is not. it is nav to a subset of larger navigation
17:41:41 <jeanne> tab keys would not be, the letter t, that brings you to a the first thing starting with t
17:43:59 <allanj> direct command to a section or chunk or similar elements.
17:44:16 <allanj> js: like independent of current location.
17:44:27 <allanj> gl: part of definition
17:46:00 <allanj> jr: seq. nav...show me the next one.
17:46:30 <allanj> ... in direct nav, you must know where you are going. how do you find out?
17:46:57 <allanj> ... visually, aurally - headings list.
17:47:33 <allanj> gl: or explore the entire page sequentially, then remember where you want to go, then go there.
17:48:00 <allanj> jr: what are we asking for. ... a new feature ... make users more efficient
17:48:58 <allanj> ... a generalize system - add indicator for enabled elements, to move directly to a specific element
17:51:23 <allanj> gl: number of keystrokes is immaterial, its about functioning with chunks
17:52:06 <allanj> jr: is this definable enough that we can require it of UAs and talk about methods for making this happen
17:52:39 <allanj> kp: make sure you don't have items you can't get to without clicking.
17:53:14 <allanj> ... then there are enabled elements - numbering, or something like that
17:58:05 <Greg> Direct Commands are referenced in 2.1.1 and 2.3.1-4.
17:58:07 <Greg> 2.1.1 does not distinguish between direct and other commands, so the definition might not be relevant. In fact, I'm not sure what we're trying to exclude with the clause.
17:58:08 <Greg> 2.3.1 needs to have an exception when there are too many enabled elements (e.g. 500 buttons).
17:58:10 <Greg> 2.3.2 needs to have an exception for items that do not support an activation action (e.g. a text entry field).
17:58:56 <Greg> s/items/enabled elements/
18:00:28 <Jan> 2.5.2 Provide Structural Navigation by Heading and within Tables
18:01:36 <allanj> ja: no where do we say that the UA must provide *direct* nav to non enabled elements
18:04:51 <Zakim> -Jeanne
18:05:17 <Zakim> +Jeanne
18:05:44 <allanj> ja: directly is not subjective. for example the MouseKeys extension allows a user to directly navigate to 'enabled' elements.
18:08:35 <jeanne> From Implementing 2.3.1: People who are blind or have mobility problems often find it difficult or impossible to use a mouse to move the viewport to, and focus on, important elements. Some other form of direct navigation – such as numbers or key combinations assigned to important elements – should be available. Direct navigation can be accessed via keyboard, which also supports other forms of
18:08:35 <jeanne> input, such as gesture, speech and touch.
18:08:45 <allanj> js: we have defined direct commands. we mention mouseless browsing extension.
18:10:46 <jeanne> Directly: using a direct command (link)
18:14:46 <allanj> UAWG removed term 'important'
18:15:28 <allanj> added a new definition for "directly" to make it clear that it is a direct command.
18:15:54 <allanj> these two changes make SC more objective.
18:16:20 <allanj> gl: because we had such a hard time defining 'direct command' that we need to be clearer.
18:18:26 <Greg> Not so much defining it, but we ended up discussing is so long and addressing confusion about what is and isn't. For example, clarifying that it's not a matter of how many keystrokes, and that typing a letter repeatedly to get to the fifth item starting with that letter is not adequate.
18:18:52 <Greg> Thus I feel we could add some more language helping clarify it, including a list of examples.
18:19:14 <Zakim> -Kelly
18:22:01 <allanj> gl: clarify list...these things are 'direct commands', these things are not and why.
18:23:09 <allanj> glossary is normative.
18:23:54 <allanj> could put a clarifying list of examples in the implementing document in 2.3.1, etc.
18:24:47 <allanj> to do:
18:25:03 <allanj> cross link 'command' and keyboard command definitions
18:25:17 <allanj> adding 'directly' definition
18:26:39 <jeanne> action: jeanne to add definition of "directly"; crosslinking direct command and direct key command definitions
18:26:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-985 - Add definition of "directly"; crosslinking direct command and direct key command definitions [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-06-19].
18:28:41 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
18:28:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/12-ua-minutes.html allanj
18:31:18 <jeanne> https://github.com/jspellman/UAAG
18:32:43 <Zakim> -Jan
18:32:58 <Zakim> -Kim_Patch
18:33:01 <Zakim> -Greg_Lowney
18:40:13 <allanj> zakim, please part
18:40:13 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Kim_Patch, Greg_Lowney, Jeanne, Jim_Allan, Jan, Kelly
18:40:13 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ua
18:42:07 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
18:42:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/12-ua-minutes.html allanj
18:44:07 <allanj> close action-978
18:44:07 <trackbot> Closed action-978.
18:44:53 <allanj> rrsagent, please part
18:44:53 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/12-ua-actions.rdf :
18:44:53 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jeanne to add definition of "directly"; crosslinking direct command and direct key command definitions [1]
18:44:53 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/12-ua-irc#T18-26-39