12:50:20 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webtv
12:50:20 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/11-webtv-irc
12:50:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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12:50:24 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
12:50:24 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
12:50:25 <trackbot> Meeting: Web and TV Interest Group Teleconference
12:50:25 <trackbot> Date: 11 June 2014
12:50:38 <ddavis> zakim, code?
12:50:38 <Zakim> sorry, ddavis, I don't know what conference this is
12:50:48 <ddavis> zakim, this will be webtv1
12:50:48 <Zakim> ok, ddavis; I see UW_WebTVIG()9:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
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12:55:45 <ddavis> zakim, call MITvoip
12:55:45 <Zakim> I am sorry, ddavis; I do not know a number for MITvoip
12:55:55 <ddavis> zakim, code
12:55:55 <Zakim> I don't understand 'code', ddavis
12:55:59 <ddavis> zakim, code?
12:55:59 <Zakim> the conference code is 932881 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ddavis
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12:57:57 <Zakim> UW_WebTVIG()9:00AM has now started
12:58:04 <Zakim> +MIT531
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13:00:20 <Zakim> + +1.650.946.aaaa
13:00:32 <Zakim> +Paul_Higgs
13:00:42 <Bin_Hu> azkim, aaaa is me
13:00:50 <Bin_Hu> zakim, aaaa is me
13:00:50 <Zakim> +Bin_Hu; got it
13:00:58 <Zakim> + +1.720.934.aabb
13:01:03 <jcverdie> Regrets+ JC_Verdie
13:01:14 <ddavis> zakim, aabb is Clarke
13:01:14 <Zakim> +Clarke; got it
13:01:26 <ddavis> Present+ yosuke
13:01:32 <ddavis> Present+ ddavis
13:01:32 <Zakim> +??P7
13:01:36 <Zakim> -??P7
13:02:07 <ddavis> scribenick: ddavis
13:02:10 <ddavis> scribe: Daniel
13:03:46 <ddavis> zakim, who is here
13:03:46 <Zakim> ddavis, you need to end that query with '?'
13:03:49 <ddavis> zakim, who is here?
13:03:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see MIT531, Bin_Hu, Paul_Higgs, Clarke
13:03:51 <Zakim> On IRC I see Bin_Hu, PaulHiggs, yosuke, glenn_, Zakim, RRSAgent, ddavis, jcverdie, MarkS, schuki, timeless_, tobie_, trackbot
13:04:05 <ddavis> zakim, MIT531 is yosuke
13:04:05 <Zakim> +yosuke; got it
13:04:14 <jcverdie> Regret+ JC_Verdie
13:04:17 <Zakim> + +1.818.370.aacc
13:04:37 <ddavis> zakim, aacc is glenn_
13:04:37 <Zakim> +glenn_; got it
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13:05:30 <ddavis> yosuke: We've just finished the AC meeting and today we have the AB meeting so a relatively small number of people on this call.
13:05:43 <ddavis> yosuke: Now we're in the second round of gathering use cases and requirements.
13:05:59 <ddavis> yosuke: Firstly, we should share some information from the AC meeting that's relevant to this IG
13:06:03 <ddavis> Topic: AC meeting update
13:06:14 <ddavis> yosuke: We reported the outcome of the Munich TV workshop
13:06:39 <ddavis> yosuke: There was a good response from the audience. Some of them were interested in the actual service of using HTML5 and interactive TV programs.
13:06:50 <ddavis> yosuke: We also had an update from W3C Team about testing activities.
13:06:55 <Zakim> +??P12
13:07:20 <Zakim> +Mark_Vickers
13:07:25 <ddavis> Present+ MarkS
13:07:32 <MarkS> zakim, code?
13:07:32 <Zakim> the conference code is 932881 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), MarkS
13:07:41 <janina_> janina_ has joined #webtv
13:07:49 <ddavis> zakim, ??P12 is janina_
13:07:49 <Zakim> +janina_; got it
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13:08:19 <ddavis> yosuke: W3C Team reported the first round of the testing activity - Test the Web Forward is working well but funding is not working well.
13:08:31 <ddavis> yosuke: Now they'd like to continue to work on crowd sourcing.
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13:09:04 <ddavis> ddavis: Today I'm going to speak to W3C local offices about TV activities in W3C
13:09:09 <ddavis> Topic: Use-case gathering
13:09:18 <yosuke> http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/track/actions/open?sort=due
13:09:19 <ddavis> yosuke: Let's look through the issue tracker
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13:11:17 <ddavis> Action 194:  	Clarify use case 1 description
13:11:17 <trackbot> Error finding '194'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/track/users>.
13:11:24 <yosuke> http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/New_Ideas
13:11:43 <ddavis> Use case 1 - https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/New_Ideas#Audio_Fingerprinting_.28watermarking.29
13:12:55 <ddavis> ddavis: I added a bit more explanation to clarify the use case
13:13:21 <ddavis> ddavis: I added this text: " In other words, the user device could extract information in the broadcast feed to retrieve additional data related to the content being played."
13:14:23 <Zakim> +EricP
13:14:34 <ddavis> ddavis: Maybe it's better to have two use cases
13:14:38 <ddavis> yosuke: I think so
13:15:03 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: It's possible that the web app could be running on the TV itself rather than a second device.
13:15:53 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: I thought we would say the ability of a web app to detect the TV program that's being viewed.
13:16:09 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: Then the second device could extract info from the broadcast feed.
13:17:01 <ddavis> glenn_: What you could extract from the audio stream is a registry identifier or ad ID (inside the watermark).
13:17:17 <ddavis> glenn_: Once you have that, you can resolve it to get the show and episode identifier.
13:17:32 <ddavis> glenn_: It won't tell you where you're watching but what you're watching.
13:18:02 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: The example is correct but the second sentence of the description doesn't seem to be correct.
13:18:31 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: You could add something about listening to its audio information to get further information from the internet.
13:18:59 <ddavis> glenn_: There are two ways of doing this - either there's a watermark you extract or you're going to take the audio and match it against an existing fingerprint.
13:19:08 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: That's why it needs to be two use cases.
13:19:46 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: Watermarking is non-audible tones that the tablet can hear. Fingerprinting is listening to a clip and comparing it to a database.
13:20:16 <ddavis> glenn_: There's also a third case - the option that the TV device may have some fingerprinting tech built-in. It can notify the tablet of what's being watched.
13:20:32 <ddavis> glenn_: Samsung TVs have a watermarking feature that can do this.
13:20:43 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: Is that audio or something else?
13:21:03 <glenn_> s/glenn_/?/
13:21:17 <glenn_> i'm not on the call
13:21:42 <glenn_> np :)
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13:22:39 <ddavis> zakim, glenn_ is Glenn_d
13:22:39 <Zakim> +Glenn_d; got it
13:22:56 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: So in that third case you're saying the TV is doing the detection but not using audio.
13:23:00 <ddavis> Glenn_d: Correct.
13:23:30 <ddavis> ddavis: Is just two use cases enough?
13:24:04 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: I had thought maybe we don't need the third one - it's mostly about getting the information on the companion tablet.
13:25:51 <ddavis> Glenn_d: There is one difference - the industry uses a 6-second clip for fingerprinting and can tell where in the show I'm watching.
13:26:07 <ddavis> Glenn_d: Whereas with watermarking is just an identifier for the show.
13:26:44 <ddavis> Clarke: Fingerprinting is taking information that's already there are characterizing it.
13:27:03 <ddavis> Clarke: Watermarking is added inaudible info to the stream to identify the source or add e.g. copyright information.
13:27:17 <Zakim> +CyrilRa
13:27:19 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: The watermarking technology could do more that just identify the show.
13:27:54 <ddavis> yosuke: The benefit of fingerprinting is you don't need to add info to the stream beforehand.
13:28:17 <ddavis> yosuke: If you add more computing resources you can get more precise info of where you're watching.
13:28:57 <ddavis> yosuke: For the use case, when you're listening to the stream, without the original provider adding metadata or audio watermarking, you can use a fingerprinting service to get program info.
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13:29:30 <ddavis> yosuke: For watermarking, the video creator can add anything they like within the stream and the receiver can decode that info.
13:29:39 <ddavis> yosuke: The service provider can deliver additional info to applications.
13:30:10 <ddavis> Glenn_d: Some places have discussed a hybrid system - a watermark to obtain the show and a fingerprint to sync where you're watching.
13:30:32 <ddavis> ACTION: ddavis to split up use case 1 into watermarking and fingerprinting.
13:30:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-200 - Split up use case 1 into watermarking and fingerprinting. [on Daniel Davis - due 2014-06-18].
13:30:53 <ddavis> Action - ddavis to Check current ability to change playback rate for html media element.
13:30:55 <trackbot> Error finding '-'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/track/users>.
13:31:18 <ddavis> http://daniemon.com/tech/html5/playbackRate/
13:31:27 <Zakim> -Clarke
13:31:49 <ddavis> ddavis: This was already in the spec so I removed the use case.
13:32:18 <Zakim> +Clarke
13:32:18 <ddavis> janina_: This is very useful, e.g. for immigrants, and can help a lot of people.
13:33:26 <ddavis> Action 196 -  	Split synchronisation use case (#4)
13:33:26 <trackbot> Error finding '196'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/track/users>.
13:33:36 <ddavis> https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/New_Ideas#Identical_media_stream_synchronization
13:34:50 <ddavis> ddavis: There are now two use cases - one where the media content is identical and played on multiple devices, the other where the media is different (but related) and synced across multiple devices.
13:34:55 <ddavis> yosuke: Any comments?
13:35:19 <ddavis> Action 197 - Classify the accessibility requirements into general ones and specific ones.
13:35:19 <trackbot> Error finding '197'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/track/users>.
13:35:36 <ddavis> yosuke: This is mine. We had a talk with the HTML accessibility sub group during the AC meeting.
13:35:47 <ddavis> yosuke: Mark, Janina, Daniel, Kaz and I joined.
13:36:00 <ddavis> yosuke: We exchanged some thoughts about how we can work together.
13:36:05 <ddavis> yosuke: There are two actions we can take.
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13:36:32 <ddavis> yosuke: One is improving new standards or specs, e.g. TV Control API, that are related to this Interest Group, adding new accessibility features.
13:36:40 <ddavis> yosuke: We can contribute to this.
13:37:06 <ddavis> yosuke: The other approach is that there are lots of external orgs using HTML5 and related standards.
13:37:33 <ddavis> yosuke: We can improve awareness for people who use W3C standards of what is best for accessibility.
13:37:46 <ddavis> yosuke: We could create guidelines for other SDOs to use or reference.
13:38:15 <ddavis> yosuke: Accessibility is regulated and  raising awareness is important.
13:39:26 <ddavis> ddavis: There are already guidelines being worked on so we would not rewrite them - just add to them or somehow make it easier for TV-related organisations and companies to find and digest the existing guidelines.
13:39:40 <ddavis> MarkS: I can see the benefit for tailoring guidelines for a particular industry.
13:39:57 <ddavis> MarkS: We'd have to spend time learning the needs of that industry. We could collaborate on this.
13:40:40 <ddavis> janina_: I'm all for it if the group thinks it's worth doing.
13:40:46 <ddavis> ddavis: What is goal for you?
13:41:30 <ddavis> janina_: First goal is that all the material we have is fully supported. This material, e.g. captions which are enshrined in law, exist from before the web was born.
13:41:45 <ddavis> janina_: Captions are already there and easy to use.
13:41:54 <ddavis> janina_: We think the specs already support this.
13:42:20 <ddavis> janina_: There may be cases where different devices display different things.
13:42:52 <ddavis> janina_: Whatever the viewing setup, we want this work supported.
13:43:18 <ddavis> janina_: The third goal is that people creating the user agents have guidance on how to use our resources.
13:43:56 <ddavis> janina_: If we can have a example video that has every accessibility component that we suggest, that would be good.
13:44:56 <ddavis> janina_: We've had some good response from education because they're under US law to provide accessible materials including videos.
13:45:16 <ddavis> janina_: I think it's achievable.
13:45:37 <ddavis> Clarke: I'm doing some work on broadcast and cable side on descriptive video. I should sync up with your group at some point.
13:46:07 <MarkS> Clarke, ping me at mark@w3.org and I will send you the details
13:46:30 <ddavis> yosuke: We could talk about the video in the IG, but we need significant contributions.
13:46:42 <ddavis> yosuke: For now I'm not sure how many members can contribute.
13:47:20 <ddavis> MarkS: This part was a broader goal.
13:47:58 <ddavis> yosuke: One idea is that currently hybrid TV is an important topic. There are lots of different delivery methods but one single viewing experience.
13:48:11 <ddavis> yosuke: That requires different standards from different stakeholders.
13:49:07 <ddavis> yosuke: That's also a challenge because we need to compile several different things. There's no comprehensive study about how to maintain accessibility in such an environment.
13:49:27 <ddavis> yosuke: The media accessibility guidelines (to be published) could cover this.
13:49:58 <ddavis> yosuke: In this IG and other SDOs, people are creating new hybrid standards. If we can check what problems the hybrid systems have, that could help a lot of people.
13:50:11 <ddavis> yosuke: Any further comments?
13:50:19 <ddavis> q?
13:51:02 <ddavis> yosuke: Let's firstly create some notes to clarify the goals of the clarification between the TV IG and the media accessibility sub group.
13:51:17 <ddavis> yosuke: We can refine this on the mailing list and then work together efficiently.
13:51:26 <ddavis> Action 198 - Ask timed text wg about 4k affecting captioning.
13:51:26 <trackbot> Error finding '198'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/track/users>.
13:51:36 <ddavis> ddavis: Sorry I haven't done this yet.
13:51:58 <ddavis> Action 199 - And yosuke to create questionnaire for 4k stakeholders about web standards issues.
13:51:58 <trackbot> Error finding '199'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/track/users>.
13:52:31 <ddavis> yosuke: I wrote an email to Daniel suggesting we start within W3C members, and after that ask externally.
13:52:49 <ddavis> yosuke: 4K is a compression technology so the work is also done in MPEG and other SDOs.
13:53:20 <ddavis> yosuke: We can later ask external SDOs about their use cases and concerns.
13:53:30 <ddavis> yosuke: What groups should we ask about 4K?
13:54:00 <ddavis> yosuke: We already talked about asking the Timed Text Working Group. Should we ask e.g. HTML WG and its media task force?
13:54:04 <ddavis> ddavis: I think so.
13:54:26 <ddavis> yosuke: Maybe CSS WG - they're dealing with positioning and responsive media.
13:54:39 <ddavis> yosuke: Maybe SVG WG?
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13:54:59 <ddavis> yosuke: And Media Accessibility Sub Group
13:55:18 <ddavis> yosuke: Any others?
13:55:35 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: Is anyone looking at accessibility and subtitles on companion devices?
13:56:03 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: I'm thinking of something like a teleprompter mode where a transcript scrolls on my tablet.
13:56:35 <ddavis> Mark_Vickers: [inaudible]
13:56:52 <ddavis> MarkS: I think you're saying current web tech already supports this functionality.
13:57:09 <ddavis> MarkS: We currently have the ability to sync video with a transcript.
13:57:26 <Zakim> -Mark_Vickers
13:57:59 <ddavis> yosuke: Our situation with synchronisation is we need to define better standards for this.
13:58:23 <ddavis> yosuke: For example, if the main video is delivered using broadcasting, there is almost no buffer.
13:58:26 <Zakim> +Mark_Vickers
13:58:58 <ddavis> yosuke: But we may need additional synchronisation method. That's also the hybrid situation.
13:59:10 <ddavis> yosuke: The standard for this is not defined in W3C.
13:59:47 <ddavis> yosuke: It's important for accessibility but we don't have anything for this level of synchronisation.
13:59:54 <ddavis> ddavis: So add it as a new use case?
14:00:22 <ddavis> yosuke: Yes, but we already have lots of existing second screen use cases so maybe we can improve what we already have.
14:00:40 <ddavis> yosuke: Any other comments?
14:01:25 <ddavis> ddavis: I think Janina has just sent a new use case.
14:02:16 <ddavis> janina_: I think there are a couple of unique things.
14:02:30 <ddavis> janina_: The use case is e.g. someone growing older who loses their hearing.
14:03:05 <ddavis> janina_: They lose their hearing so that viewing movies/tv content, they can't follow the dialogue because of additional sound (gunshot, car noises, etc.)
14:03:26 <ddavis> janina_: They could rely on captions but ideally they'd like to follow the audio soundtrack.
14:03:34 <ddavis> janina_: In the UK there's a thing called clean audio.
14:03:51 <ddavis> janina_: The notion is an alternative audio track which is primarily dialogue.
14:03:59 <ddavis> janina_: This is made available to the viewer.
14:04:37 <ddavis> janina_: So for example, the viewer has an app on their mobile device which tells them when a clean audio track is available for them to listen to separately.
14:05:05 <ddavis> janina_: This audio app is important because a hearing therapist can tune the app to the frequencies that are best for that particular viewer.
14:05:30 <ddavis> janina_: This is a very important strategy.
14:05:43 <ddavis> janina_: It could also be possible to use the same app in the cinema watching movies.
14:05:54 <Zakim> -Clarke
14:06:10 <ddavis> yosuke: I think NHK also has similar research.
14:06:26 <ddavis> yosuke: They're keen to develop accessible technologies.
14:06:53 <ddavis> janina_: I think we'd like to know about things like that. You could help us with footnotes and who in the industry is doing what.
14:07:10 <ddavis> janina_: You could really help with us compiling the guidelines.
14:07:25 <ddavis> yosuke: The industry would also like to improve society and get more recognition.
14:07:44 <ddavis> janina_: I heard a US senator saying you can be in business and still do good - we should reward them.
14:08:00 <ddavis> ddavis: Should we add that use case to our wiki page?
14:08:30 <ddavis> PaulHiggs: To clarify, the clean audio is just the commentary. Is there some kind of mixing that could bring in some sound effects?
14:08:38 <ddavis> janina_: Yes, I think there is.
14:08:55 <ddavis> janina_: The additional audio should not get in the way of the dialogue.
14:09:38 <ddavis> janina_: And the app can adjust the frequency for the hearing band?
14:09:48 <ddavis> s/janina_/PaulHiggs/
14:09:54 <ddavis> janina_: Yes, exactly.
14:10:01 <ddavis> yosuke: Any other topics to discuss?
14:10:03 <ddavis> q?
14:10:21 <ddavis> ACTION: ddavis to add clean audio use case to wiki page
14:10:21 <trackbot> Created ACTION-201 - Add clean audio use case to wiki page [on Daniel Davis - due 2014-06-18].
14:10:44 <ddavis> yosuke: Some work is going on in the mailing list. Let's clarify our schedule.
14:11:11 <ddavis> yosuke: We'll can think of milestones - when we finalise things and do gap analysis.
14:11:30 <ddavis> yosuke: On the mailing list, IG members can make comments.
14:11:36 <ddavis> ddavis: Sounds good to me.
14:11:50 <Zakim> -Paul_Higgs
14:11:53 <ddavis> yosuke: Thank you for joining us. Let's talk in two weeks.
14:12:00 <Zakim> -Glenn_d
14:12:13 <Zakim> -Bin_Hu
14:12:14 <Zakim> -Mark_Vickers
14:12:14 <Zakim> -janina_
14:12:17 <ddavis> Meeting adjourned.
14:12:23 <Zakim> -yosuke
14:12:25 <Zakim> -wuwei
14:12:38 <ddavis> rrsagent, make minutes
14:12:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/11-webtv-minutes.html ddavis
14:17:03 <Zakim> -CyrilRa
14:17:04 <Zakim> UW_WebTVIG()9:00AM has ended
14:17:04 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.650.946.aaaa, Paul_Higgs, Bin_Hu, +1.720.934.aabb, Clarke, yosuke, +1.818.370.aacc, Mark_Vickers, janina_, wuwei, Glenn_d, CyrilRa
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