11:58:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #csvw
11:58:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/11-csvw-irc
11:58:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
11:58:25 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #csvw
11:58:27 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be CSVW
11:58:27 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
11:58:28 <trackbot> Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference
11:58:28 <trackbot> Date: 11 June 2014
11:59:27 <Zakim> DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has now started
11:59:35 <Zakim> + +44.207.346.aaaa
11:59:40 <danbri> zakim, aaaa is danbri
11:59:40 <Zakim> +danbri; got it
12:00:53 <stasinos> stasinos has joined #csvw
12:01:19 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
12:01:29 <stasinos> zakim, IPCaller is me
12:01:29 <Zakim> +stasinos; got it
12:01:49 <jtandy> jtandy has joined #csvw
12:02:08 <stasinos> danbri, how do you do the italics bit?
12:02:29 <danbri> I don't see italics, but I guess you mean the "waves hi to stasinos" ?
12:02:36 <stasinos> yeap
12:02:41 <danbri> try typing: "/me volunteers to scribe today"
12:02:53 <Zakim> + +44.207.800.aabb
12:03:12 <jtandy> zakim, aabb is me
12:03:12 <Zakim> +jtandy; got it
12:03:22 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:03:22 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:03:27 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:03:27 <Zakim> jtandy should no longer be muted
12:03:29 <danbri> scribenick: danbri
12:03:43 <danbri> scribe: Dan
12:03:57 <stasinos> zakim, mute me
12:03:57 <Zakim> stasinos should now be muted
12:03:58 <danbri> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-06-11
12:04:27 <fonso> fonso has joined #csvw
12:04:44 <danbri> regrets: Jeni, Ivan
12:05:05 <danbri> zakim, who is on the call?
12:05:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see danbri, stasinos (muted), jtandy
12:05:14 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:05:14 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:05:16 <ericstephan> ericstephan has joined #csvw
12:05:20 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
12:05:24 <AndyS> zakim, IPcaller is me
12:05:24 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
12:05:29 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:05:29 <Zakim> jtandy should no longer be muted
12:05:45 <Zakim> +ericstephan
12:05:55 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
12:06:12 <Zakim> +??P5
12:06:19 <fonso> Zakim, ??P5 is me
12:06:19 <Zakim> +fonso; got it
12:06:50 <danbri> zakim, pick a victim
12:06:50 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose AndyS
12:06:51 <DavideCeolin> DavideCeolin has joined #csvw
12:07:09 <fresco> zakim, IPcaller is me
12:07:09 <Zakim> +fresco; got it
12:07:16 <danbri> 4 june record http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-csv-wg/2014Jun/0029.html
12:07:34 <danbri> resolved: fair record
12:08:00 <jtandy> q+
12:08:01 <danbri> AndyS: no progress
12:08:13 <danbri> "with all requirements work, … maybe best to wait until that completes"
12:08:27 <danbri> "some of the requirements are getting into design"
12:08:27 <Zakim> + +1.410.764.aacc
12:08:38 <danbri> jeremy: "fair comment, have tried to remove/fix those"
12:08:49 <Zakim> +??P9
12:08:57 <danbri> zakim, aacc is yakov
12:08:57 <Zakim> +yakov; got it
12:09:00 <DavideCeolin> zakim, ??P9 is me
12:09:00 <Zakim> +DavideCeolin; got it
12:09:15 <danbri> 'How to distinguish field (cell) references in JSON, and other questions about templates'
12:09:21 <danbri> <- jeremy q
12:09:22 <yakovsh> yakovsh has joined #csvw
12:09:40 <danbri> jeremy: having made some progress on UC + requirements, I took a look at the templates
12:09:51 <danbri> … got to thinking how cell refs work in json, where curly braces are heavily used
12:10:14 <danbri> AndyS: I don't think it woudl be a problem…
12:10:24 <danbri> … gregg was proposing some of this stuff, and he loves JSON, …
12:10:33 <danbri> … we could pick diff delims for diff syntaxes
12:10:34 <danbri> q+
12:11:03 <danbri> … curly brackets are fairly natural in rdf
12:11:06 <danbri> … others elsewhere
12:11:23 <danbri> q?
12:11:25 <danbri> ack jtandy
12:11:48 <danbri> jtandy: the whole brace enclosure could be a non-issue, look to see if the thing in the brace is a valid col ref, or cell ref
12:11:59 <danbri> … probably in hindsight where gregg's coming from
12:12:01 <danbri> ack me
12:12:52 <danbri> jtandy: am trying to apply this + metadata to the weather
12:12:53 <jtandy> q+
12:13:01 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:13:01 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:13:07 <danbri> danbri: i liked my turtle template experiment having files that count as real turtle
12:13:26 <danbri> andys: maybe, but someone put it the other way around ,… being able to work lightwight and not need to parse as rdf
12:13:35 <danbri> … you could use it as a big string
12:13:52 <danbri> andys: tricky bits — suppose you're generating a predicate as a prefix'd name
12:14:02 <danbri> q?
12:14:15 <AndyS> namespace:{col}
12:14:57 <AndyS> subject namespace:{col} object .
12:15:26 <danbri> andys: trying to come up with examples where the curly brackets arent hidden in something that won't be touched
12:15:58 <jtandy> q-
12:16:20 <danbri> topic: Progressing XML & JSON conversions
12:16:22 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:16:22 <Zakim> jtandy should no longer be muted
12:16:25 <danbri> q?
12:16:42 <danbri> jtandy: json conversion falls out of the …
12:16:49 <danbri> … of the conversion approach we're trying for json-ld
12:17:01 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:17:01 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:17:02 <danbri> … seems to work for me. Not looking at XML myself.
12:17:10 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:17:10 <Zakim> jtandy should no longer be muted
12:17:11 <danbri> topic: Use cases
12:17:24 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:17:24 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:17:26 <danbri> jtandy: Eric, … where are we with UC review + feedback?
12:17:35 <danbri> ericstephan: we have feedback from most of the reviewers
12:18:21 <danbri> .. overnight, a few more questions have come out. At this point we've given at least 2 calls asking for checks. I'd like to propose that if we can catch up today/tomorrow, then we've given opportunity for feedback. If we don't have feedback, then we've given fair notice, ...
12:18:24 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:18:24 <Zakim> jtandy should no longer be muted
12:18:29 <jtandy> q+
12:18:36 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:18:36 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:18:37 <danbri> dan: cut off end of this week?
12:18:42 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:18:42 <Zakim> jtandy should no longer be muted
12:18:43 <danbri> ack jtandy
12:19:09 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:19:09 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:19:09 <danbri> jtandy: David Booth has got back to me, is hoping to pick up his review next week
12:19:21 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:19:21 <Zakim> jtandy should no longer be muted
12:19:30 <danbri> dan: what further work needed?
12:19:43 <danbri> jtandy: listed to discuss later
12:20:00 <danbri> topic: UCR open issues
12:20:02 <danbri> jtandy: rather than review open issues, just note that they are open in github
12:20:10 <danbri> https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues?labels=Use+Case+Document&page=1&state=open
12:20:13 <danbri> PTAL
12:20:27 <danbri> please take a look
12:20:28 <danbri> :)
12:20:43 <danbri> topic: UCR blank cells
12:20:59 <danbri> jtandy: I opened discussion recently about whether row by row processing is sufficient
12:21:19 <danbri> … some examples have used a blank field to indicate a ditto
12:21:26 <danbri> 'same as cell above', or 'same as cell to left'
12:21:45 <danbri> stasinos suggests that the missing value definitions could be enhanced to say 'take my value from somewhere else'
12:21:58 <danbri> jtandy: if you can refer to another col in a row
12:22:01 <danbri> that's easy
12:22:13 <stasinos> +q
12:22:14 <danbri> if you're referring up or down in doc, it breaks our row-by-row processing model
12:22:31 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:22:31 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:22:56 <danbri> q?
12:23:02 <fresco> ideally, exporting merged cells would put the same value in each cell
12:23:11 <danbri> andys: there has to be … somewhere, … deal with cycles, as spreadsheets deal with
12:23:37 <fresco> i.e. all references should be converted to their actual values on export
12:23:38 <danbri> … if youre doing spreadsheety things, … why not make a spreadsheet. On other hands, some kinds of references may be useful. I've not had time to dive into use cases.
12:23:47 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:23:47 <Zakim> jtandy should no longer be muted
12:23:56 <danbri> …. do we have fwd ref to a row you've not encountered yet?
12:24:12 <danbri> jtandy: personally i've only seen refs to earlier in the file
12:24:13 <danbri> q+
12:24:24 <danbri> … rather than fwd refs to things i've not parsed yet
12:24:51 <danbri> ack stasinos
12:24:54 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:24:54 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:25:20 <danbri> stasinos, this and summing regions, spreadsheet-esque things, ...
12:25:32 <danbri> … you can do this specifci thing by just remembering one row
12:25:35 <jtandy> q+
12:25:50 <danbri> … we need to remember a couple of rows, because of the header
12:26:31 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:26:31 <Zakim> jtandy should no longer be muted
12:26:35 <danbri> stasinos: main point, … doesn't increase expressivity as we need headers anyway
12:27:58 <stasinos> q+
12:28:01 <Zakim> -AndyS
12:28:05 <danbri> q?
12:28:07 <danbri> ack danbri
12:28:11 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:28:11 <Zakim> jtandy was not muted, jtandy
12:28:31 <danbri> danbri: consider hadoop-like parallel processing.
12:28:45 <danbri> … also that preprocessing for grid-extracts, and regex exploded cols, v appealing.
12:28:58 <danbri> jtandy: in this UC job classification, it's more than just remember the previous row
12:29:25 <danbri> danbri: is there  a simple pre-processing step that would make data more normalised
12:29:26 <danbri> ?
12:29:42 <danbri> jtandy: sometimes blanks are blanks, sometimes it means the last value above/left.
12:30:37 <danbri> jtandy: sometimes it's even within the same col
12:30:43 <danbri> … not a core use case for me
12:30:48 <danbri> danbri: they should fix it themselves!
12:30:50 <danbri> q?
12:30:54 <jtandy> q-
12:30:55 <danbri> ack jtandy
12:31:16 <danbri> stasinos: mech for data provider telling us what to do when encountering a particular value
12:31:30 <danbri> … for a particular column, dataset, … data provider would have t otell us what it means
12:31:39 <danbri> …same applies for explaining what a blank means, and where
12:31:56 <danbri> … consider case where same col has real blanks and dittos pathological, needs provider-fix
12:32:15 <danbri> … but simpler version of this is more legitmate
12:32:16 <danbri> q?
12:32:25 <danbri> ack stasinos
12:32:27 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:32:27 <Zakim> jtandy was not muted, jtandy
12:32:47 <danbri> topic: status of UC
12:32:58 <danbri> "consensus agreement on whether the UCR document is ready for republication as PWD"
12:33:13 <ericstephan> +q
12:33:13 <danbri> jtandy: keen to get sense of if WG things it is ready to go
12:33:18 <danbri> … who has read it thoroguh?
12:33:23 <danbri> danbri: only the new jobs case
12:33:25 <danbri> eric/davide?
12:33:48 <danbri> eric: i've scanned it overall, it is shaping up nicely, one part that I didn't get to follow up on (maybe davide can comment), was categorization
12:33:49 <stasinos> s/but simpler version/the standard export format for major spreadsheet software/
12:33:55 <danbri> … i noticed some categories were empty at this point
12:34:07 <danbri> should those categs be eliminated? or more work needed there?
12:34:13 <danbri> davide: can be deleted
12:34:34 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:34:34 <Zakim> jtandy was not muted, jtandy
12:34:38 <jtandy> q+
12:35:00 <danbri> eric: i'll go back and make sure the contributors line up with the doc
12:35:03 <danbri> ack ericstephan
12:35:06 <danbri> ack jtandy
12:35:12 <jtandy> q-
12:35:17 <danbri> action: davide remove empty categories from UC doc
12:35:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-23 - Remove empty categories from uc doc [on Davide Ceolin - due 2014-06-18].
12:35:17 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:35:17 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:35:19 <danbri> q?
12:35:34 <stasinos> zakim, mute me
12:35:34 <Zakim> stasinos should now be muted
12:35:43 <danbri> davide: some CSV codes are quite large, in doc, goes beyond the yellow box (doc formatting)
12:35:48 <danbri> … shoudl we leave as is, … adjust?
12:35:54 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:35:54 <Zakim> jtandy should no longer be muted
12:36:11 <danbri> jtandy: this is for example bits of csv in the doc, which are sometimes long
12:36:16 <danbri> … we can't just add line-breaks
12:36:28 <danbri> … i'm comfortable with those people who are really interested scrolling to the right
12:36:38 <ericstephan> q+
12:36:44 <danbri> danbri: are the actual samples linkable too?
12:36:56 <danbri> jtandy: in many cases yes, and linked already.
12:36:57 <danbri> q?
12:37:01 <danbri> ack eric
12:37:02 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:37:02 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:37:32 <danbri> ericstephane: for future ref, this is where it could make sense from a printing perspective, to make a link off to the larger CSV, and put an image into the doc
12:37:35 <DavideCeolin> q+
12:37:45 <danbri> … I know we want actual copies of the csv, but maybe image in doc makes it more tractable
12:37:48 <danbri> ack da
12:37:54 <danbri> q?
12:38:15 <danbri> muted david: mmmhhmhmh
12:38:25 <danbri> davide: re categories, i can't now see any empty categories
12:38:29 <danbri> .. or class of requirements
12:38:33 <danbri> only 'accepted requirements'
12:38:45 <danbri> regarding specifics, i don't see any that are now empty.
12:38:52 <danbri> I remember deleting some time back
12:39:04 <danbri> ericstephane, apologies, perhaps this was comment on a prev version
12:39:08 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:39:08 <Zakim> jtandy should no longer be muted
12:39:11 <danbri> q?
12:39:24 <danbri> jtandy: in version I see, section 3.2.2 is empty, 3.2.3, 3.2.4
12:39:47 <jtandy> http://w3c.github.io/csvw/use-cases-and-requirements/index.html#can-req-annotation
12:40:27 <danbri> 3.2.2 Requirements relating to annotation of CSV
12:40:27 <danbri> 
12:40:27 <danbri> 3.2.3 Requirements relating to metadata discovery
12:40:27 <danbri> 
12:40:27 <danbri> 3.2.4 Requirements relating to applications
12:40:27 <danbri> 
12:40:38 <danbri> davide: ok, will fix!
12:41:01 <danbri> danbri: more for today?
12:41:24 <danbri> jtandy: for consensus agreement, let's make sure we get signoff next week
12:41:48 <danbri> RESOLVED: prepare for publication signoff on the UC+R doc in next week's call
12:41:51 <danbri> i.e. everyone read/comment
12:42:23 <danbri> q?
12:42:34 <danbri> danbri: possible cultural heritage use case looming
12:43:15 <danbri> jtandy: I raised issue on list, … that metadata vocab missing some flags, referenced in the 'parsing tabular data' datamodel
12:43:22 <danbri> jtandy flags the flags
12:43:36 <yakovsh> +q
12:43:51 <danbri> ack y
12:43:54 <jtandy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-csv-wg/2014Jun/0070.html
12:44:27 <danbri> yakovsh: regarding flags and encoding, … it is carried in the mimetype. If it can be carried in the (metadata) doc itself,  we need to deal with conflicts
12:44:47 <danbri> danbri: needed for cdroms, data sticks, ...
12:45:04 <danbri> yakovsh: agree needed, we just need to say what to do in case of a conflict
12:45:13 <danbri> see html, xml, … find least painful way of doing it.
12:45:32 <Zakim> -ericstephan
12:45:33 <Zakim> -DavideCeolin
12:45:33 <Zakim> -jtandy
12:45:35 <Zakim> -danbri
12:45:35 <Zakim> -yakov
12:45:36 <danbri> adjourned.
12:45:36 <Zakim> -stasinos
12:45:44 <danbri> trackbot, please draft minutes
12:45:44 <trackbot> Sorry, danbri, I don't understand 'trackbot, please draft minutes'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
12:45:47 <Zakim> -fonso
12:46:06 <danbri> rrsagent, please draft minutes
12:46:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/11-csvw-minutes.html danbri
12:46:06 <Zakim> -fresco
12:46:07 <Zakim> DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has ended
12:46:07 <Zakim> Attendees were +44.207.346.aaaa, danbri, stasinos, +44.207.800.aabb, jtandy, AndyS, ericstephan, fonso, fresco, +1.410.764.aacc, yakov, DavideCeolin
12:51:41 <danbri1> danbri1 has joined #csvw
13:09:40 <danbri1> added minutes + next week's meeting to https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meetings#2014
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