14:59:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
14:59:35 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/10-wai-wcag-irc
14:59:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:59:37 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #wai-wcag
14:59:39 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
14:59:39 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM already started
14:59:40 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
14:59:40 <trackbot> Date: 10 June 2014
15:00:00 <Joshue> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:00:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see David_MacDonald, [IPcaller]
15:00:04 <Joshue> zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue
15:00:04 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
15:00:15 <Wilco> Wilco has joined #wai-wcag
15:01:15 <Joshue> regrets+ Jon Avila, John Foliot, Kathy Wahlbin, Kathleen Anderson, Sailesh, Bruce B
15:01:42 <Joshue> agenda+ #5 left on survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/2705_2014/
15:01:50 <Zakim> + +31.30.239.aaaa
15:01:55 <Joshue> agenda+ https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140520/ (#3 and #4)
15:02:06 <Wilco> zakim, i am +31
15:02:06 <Zakim> +Wilco; got it
15:02:10 <Joshue> agenda+ https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/10thJune2014/
15:02:25 <Joshue> agenda+ Review open action items: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/
15:02:31 <Joshue> agenda+ Review open issues: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/issues/
15:02:42 <Joshue> agenda+
15:02:42 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2
15:02:47 <Joshue> agenda+ https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2
15:02:49 <Kenny> zakim, call kenny-mobile
15:02:49 <Zakim> ok, Kenny; the call is being made
15:02:51 <Zakim> +Kenny
15:02:58 <Joshue> agenda+ https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_the_aside_element_to_associate_content_related_to_an_article
15:03:03 <Joshue> zakim, agenda?
15:03:03 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
15:03:04 <Zakim> 1. #5 left on survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/2705_2014/ [from Joshue]
15:03:04 <Zakim> 2. https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140520/ (#3 and #4) [from Joshue]
15:03:04 <Zakim> 3. https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/10thJune2014/ [from Joshue]
15:03:04 <Zakim> 4. Review open action items: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/ [from Joshue]
15:03:04 <Zakim> 5. Review open issues: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/issues/ [from Joshue]
15:03:04 <Zakim> 6. https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2 [from Joshue]
15:03:06 <Zakim> 7. https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_the_aside_element_to_associate_content_related_to_an_article [from Joshue]
15:03:55 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #WAI-WCAG
15:04:35 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:04:45 <Loretta> zakim, ipcaller is Loretta
15:04:45 <Zakim> +Loretta; got it
15:06:28 <Kenny> W3C WAI,  and base on China
15:07:28 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List
15:08:39 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag
15:09:00 <Zakim> +Marc_Johlic
15:10:05 <Wilco> zakim, next item
15:10:05 <Zakim> agendum 1. "#5 left on survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/2705_2014/" taken up [from Joshue]
15:12:44 <Joshue> Wilco: It's a minor thing that I come accross.
15:13:00 <Joshue> Wilco: I'm not too bothered about it, it's worth reporting.
15:13:04 <Joshue> JOC: Ok
15:15:15 <David> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20081211/H51.html
15:15:53 <Joshue> JOC: It seems to really be saying that some small tables don't need headers, but adding table headers is good practice and I'd like to support that.
15:17:51 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
15:17:51 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:18:32 <Wilco> David: Is it the new version of the specification?
15:18:38 <Wilco> Loretta: Interesting question
15:19:50 <Wilco> Josh: I think to leave it open because we're not sure about Michael C ment with his proposal
15:20:21 <Wilco> RESOLUTION: Leave LC-2869 open
15:20:24 <Joshue> zakim, next item
15:20:24 <Zakim> agendum 2. "https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140520/ (#3 and #4)" taken up [from Joshue]
15:21:09 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Grouping_related_links_using_the_nav_element
15:21:49 <Wilco> Loretta: I remember the group said there is accessibility support for the technique
15:22:29 <Wilco> David: Kathy suggested primary, and secondary refered to by label
15:22:49 <Wilco> David: We should probably talk with a bigger group
15:23:55 <Wilco> Loretta: Sending it back may send it to a black hole
15:24:32 <Wilco> Josh: Technique is mostly OK
15:25:06 <Wilco> Loretta: I worry about documenting all the uses of ARIA
15:25:49 <Wilco> David: No ARIA on the first example, only the second
15:26:35 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
15:26:39 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
15:26:39 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:26:42 <Wilco> David: There is controversy about the menu role
15:26:58 <Wilco> only for the type of menu like you have in the top of office
15:27:42 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #wai-wcag
15:27:46 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Grouping_related_links_using_the_nav_element
15:29:06 <Wilco> Josh: Should we put it to bed or leave it for discussion next week
15:29:35 <Wilco> Loretta: Leaving it open may mean the comment doesn't reach the right person
15:31:02 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
15:31:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/10-wai-wcag-minutes.html jamesn
15:31:31 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Working_Group_Techniques_Development_Assignments
15:31:34 <David> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Techniques/HTML5
15:32:08 <Wilco> Everyone: MrAccess is Jon
15:32:45 <Wilco> Josh: Decide to leave untill Jon is on call
15:34:17 <Wilco> David: Maybe people don't know secondary, and conventions may be different in other places
15:34:20 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
15:34:20 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:34:39 <Joshue> zakim, agenda?
15:34:39 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
15:34:40 <Zakim> 2. https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140520/ (#3 and #4) [from Joshue]
15:34:40 <Zakim> 3. https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/10thJune2014/ [from Joshue]
15:34:40 <Zakim> 4. Review open action items: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/ [from Joshue]
15:34:40 <Zakim> 5. Review open issues: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/issues/ [from Joshue]
15:34:41 <Zakim> 6. https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2 [from Joshue]
15:34:42 <Zakim> 7. https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_the_aside_element_to_associate_content_related_to_an_article [from Joshue]
15:35:08 <Wilco> James: Top menu may often be primary menu, and secondary may be the drop down menu
15:36:20 <Wilco> James: I'm not sold on primary or secondary, but a consistent thing for people to use is a good idea
15:37:06 <Wilco> Josh: I don't like but don't particularly object to 'primary' and 'secondary'
15:38:02 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_ARIA_landmarks_to_identify_regions_of_a_page
15:38:05 <Wilco> Loretta: Makes me wonder if this should be part of WCAG techniques
15:38:33 <Wilco> James: Change the div to nav on example 3
15:38:50 <Joshue> +q
15:38:53 <Joshue> ack me
15:39:26 <Wilco> Josh: If you change div to nav, you are doubling the navigation?
15:40:08 <Wilco> Prefer David's example, the primary navigation is important, secondary is not so important
15:40:32 <Wilco> I like the example there
15:41:02 <Wilco> Josh: David, add the example please
15:42:41 <Wilco> Josh: add ARIA11 as a related technique?
15:42:44 <Joshue> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/ARIA11.html
15:43:14 <Wilco> David: I will add it
15:44:52 <Wilco> Josh: Suggested change by Andrew: Identifying a section of content containing navigation links
15:45:13 <Wilco> nobody in favour, leave it
15:46:42 <Wilco> Loretta: I'm against this change, test procedures are already hard enough not to add accessibility support to the test
15:46:53 <Wilco> we should use a user agent note
15:47:17 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
15:47:17 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:47:29 <Wilco> Josh: Don't see a massive benefit to changing the test procedure
15:47:44 <Wilco> Keep the current procedure?
15:48:15 <Joshue> I'm not sure about ' represent a section of the page'.
15:48:23 <Joshue> Should it talk about functionality
15:49:23 <Wilco> Loretta: He wants to shift the example content into the description
15:49:44 <Wilco> not clear what is ment
15:50:14 <Wilco> David: Just putting in some text to address Loretta's comment
15:50:35 <Wilco> JosH: Having a little problem parsing the suggestion into what's there
15:51:23 <Zakim> +Andrew_Kirkpatrick
15:51:28 <Wilco> Loretta: All comments are about adding role in place of the nav element
15:51:41 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Grouping_related_links_using_the_nav_element
15:53:08 <AWK> AWK has joined #wai-wcag
15:53:12 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
15:53:12 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:53:19 <AWK> link?
15:53:25 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Grouping_related_links_using_the_nav_element
15:53:30 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140520/results
15:53:51 <Wilco> Loretta: I think it's better to cross reference HTML5 and ARIA techniques rather then trying to combine them, that's confusing
15:54:53 <David> finished editing https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Grouping_related_links_using_the_nav_element
15:54:56 <Wilco> Building fallbacks into techniques makes them hard to understand
15:57:14 <Wilco> AWK: I don't feel strongly about adding accessibility support to the description
15:57:27 <Wilco> Loretta: We have a separate technique for this
15:58:25 <Wilco> AWK: It looks like the example content is not there anymore, there is no problem
15:59:45 <Wilco> Josh: David, the heading example 1 is the same as example 2
16:00:05 <Wilco> David: I'll fix, and changed the last line of the description
16:00:50 <Wilco> Marc: My comment has been added in.
16:01:00 <Wilco> Josh: I don't see 2.4.1
16:01:17 <Joshue> http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/navigation-mechanisms-skip.html
16:01:23 <Wilco> Loretta: There was support for jumping over sections
16:02:17 <Wilco> I don't know if marking it up as nav means you can navigate around it
16:02:19 <AWK> rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/10-wai-wcag-minutes.html AWK
16:02:35 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
16:02:35 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
16:03:10 <Wilco> Josh: We won't add 2.4.1
16:04:05 <Wilco> Josh: To address Kathleen's comment, seems a fairly small change
16:04:43 <Wilco> Josh: suggested text
16:04:51 <Joshue> Suggested text 'Check to see that non-navigation items are not in the nav container'
16:05:14 <Zakim> -Andrew_Kirkpatrick
16:05:42 <Wilco> David: There might be headings
16:06:19 <Wilco> other content too can help persons along
16:07:15 <Wilco> Josh: If people put something useful in there, leave the test step off
16:07:46 <David> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/CR/sections.html#the-nav-element
16:08:15 <Joshue> zakim, agenda?
16:08:15 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
16:08:17 <Zakim> 2. https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140520/ (#3 and #4) [from Joshue]
16:08:17 <Zakim> 3. https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/10thJune2014/ [from Joshue]
16:08:17 <Zakim> 4. Review open action items: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/ [from Joshue]
16:08:17 <Zakim> 5. Review open issues: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/issues/ [from Joshue]
16:08:18 <Zakim> 6. https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2 [from Joshue]
16:08:19 <Zakim> 7. https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_the_aside_element_to_associate_content_related_to_an_article [from Joshue]
16:08:28 <Wilco> David: Nav can contain all kinds of elements
16:08:43 <Wilco> in html 5
16:09:41 <Wilco> Loretta: I think the navigation section is a bunch of links, but I was not part of the HTML5 discussion
16:10:07 <Wilco> Josh: I think we leave out the suggestion, so we're not too perscriptive
16:10:31 <Wilco> Loretta: I feel mildly it is a benefit
16:11:39 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
16:11:39 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
16:12:13 <Joshue> JOC: If there isn't a lot of misuse in the wild then the test procedure shouldn't be too proscriptive
16:12:27 <Wilco> David: I've not seen this go wrong, and it is a risk if we require only links in nav
16:14:48 <Wilco> Josh: Should be ../ instead of ./
16:15:24 <Wilco> Josh: Michael suggest it should be a new paragraph
16:16:00 <Wilco> suggest moving the last sentense
16:16:59 <Wilco> Josh: I will change it
16:18:21 <Wilco> Excelent comment from Michael.
16:18:51 <Wilco> Josh: Detlev's comments are addressed, same for Loretta
16:19:03 <Joshue> s/Excelent/excellent
16:19:20 <Wilco> RESOLUTION: Technique accepted as amended
16:19:38 <Joshue> Next week start  at F76 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140520/results
16:19:50 <Joshue> zakim, agenda?
16:19:50 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
16:19:52 <Zakim> 2. https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140520/ (#3 and #4) [from Joshue]
16:19:52 <Zakim> 3. https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/10thJune2014/ [from Joshue]
16:19:52 <Zakim> 4. Review open action items: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/ [from Joshue]
16:19:52 <Zakim> 5. Review open issues: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/issues/ [from Joshue]
16:19:53 <Zakim> 6. https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2 [from Joshue]
16:19:54 <Zakim> 7. https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_the_aside_element_to_associate_content_related_to_an_article [from Joshue]
16:20:07 <Joshue> zakim, take up item 4
16:20:07 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Review open action items: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/" taken up [from Joshue]
16:20:13 <Wilco> Josh: Please continue to review your action items
16:20:20 <Joshue> zakim, take up item 5
16:20:20 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Review open issues: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/issues/" taken up [from Joshue]
16:20:44 <Joshue> Josh: Please continue to review your action items
16:20:54 <Joshue> zakim, take up item 6
16:20:54 <Zakim> agendum 6. "https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2" taken up [from Joshue]
16:21:30 <Wilco> Josh: We want to think critically about the success criteria
16:21:46 <Wilco> gather feedback on the post WCAG 2 wiki
16:22:18 <Joshue> zakim, take up item 7
16:22:18 <Zakim> agendum 7. "https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_the_aside_element_to_associate_content_related_to_an_article" taken up [from Joshue]
16:23:28 <Wilco> David: JAWS and NVDA did not know what to do with the aside technique
16:24:05 <Wilco> I'll pull out the example
16:24:10 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
16:24:10 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
16:24:39 <Joshue> Let's leave this open https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_the_aside_element_to_associate_content_related_to_an_article
16:24:45 <Joshue> zakim, agenda?
16:24:45 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
16:24:46 <Zakim> 2. https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140520/ (#3 and #4) [from Joshue]
16:24:46 <Zakim> 3. https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/10thJune2014/ [from Joshue]
16:24:46 <Zakim> 4. Review open action items: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/ [from Joshue]
16:24:46 <Zakim> 5. Review open issues: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/issues/ [from Joshue]
16:24:47 <Zakim> 6. https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2 [from Joshue]
16:24:48 <Zakim> 7. https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_the_aside_element_to_associate_content_related_to_an_article [from Joshue]
16:25:18 <BarryJohnson> BarryJohnson has joined #wai-wcag
16:25:44 <Joshue> We will look at the Pull requests on this survey next week https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/10thJune2014/
16:25:52 <Wilco> Loretta: It does not sound clear what the intended use of the technique is
16:27:33 <Loretta> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/G115.html
16:28:12 <Zakim> -Joshue
16:28:13 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
16:28:15 <Zakim> -Wilco
16:28:18 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
16:28:20 <Zakim> -Kenny
16:28:37 <Wilco> rrsagent, make minutes
16:28:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/10-wai-wcag-minutes.html Wilco
16:28:45 <Zakim> -Loretta
16:29:21 <Zakim> -Marc_Johlic
16:29:22 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has ended
16:29:22 <Zakim> Attendees were David_MacDonald, Joshue, +31.30.239.aaaa, Wilco, Kenny, Loretta, Marc_Johlic, James_Nurthen, Andrew_Kirkpatrick
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