14:57:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #hcls
14:57:36 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/10-hcls-irc
14:57:41 <dbooth> zakim, this will be hcls
14:57:41 <Zakim> ok, dbooth; I see SW_HCLS()11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:58:07 <dbooth> zakim, code?
14:58:07 <Zakim> the conference code is 4257 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), dbooth
14:58:33 <Zakim> SW_HCLS()11:00AM has now started
14:58:36 <Mehmet> Mehmet has joined #HCLS
14:58:39 <Zakim> +DBooth
14:59:18 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
14:59:41 <dbooth> zakim, [GVoice] is Mehmet
14:59:41 <Zakim> +Mehmet; got it
14:59:50 <dbooth> Meeting: HCLS
15:00:20 <Zakim> +Kerstin_Forsberg
15:00:54 <Zakim> + +1.978.794.aaaa
15:01:28 <Kerstin> Kerstin has joined #HCLS
15:01:35 <Tony> Tony has joined #hcls
15:01:42 <dbooth> zakim, aaaa is Tony
15:01:42 <Zakim> +Tony; got it
15:02:02 <Marc_Belgium> This is Marc
15:02:10 <Marc_Belgium> I failed to start Zakim
15:02:36 <dbooth> marc, will you be joining the teleconference?
15:02:51 <Marc_Belgium> am having problem to join
15:03:07 <dbooth> anything i can help with?
15:04:25 <Marc_Belgium> yeah ... all I need is to call the bridge +1.617.761.6200 right?
15:04:50 <dbooth> zakim, pick a victim
15:04:50 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Tony
15:05:20 <dbooth> marc, yes and then the code is 4257
15:06:22 <Zakim> + +1.469.226.aabb
15:06:25 <dbooth> Topic: Draft HL7 Charter
15:06:44 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:06:45 <dbooth> zakim, aabb is Neda
15:06:45 <Zakim> +Neda; got it
15:06:56 <Zakim> +ericP
15:07:09 <dbooth> zakim, [IPcaller] is Claude
15:07:09 <Zakim> +Claude; got it
15:07:58 <Zakim> + +1.301.825.aacc
15:08:53 <Ingeborg> Ingeborg has joined #HCLS
15:08:57 <ericP> Zakim, aacc is Ingeborg
15:08:57 <Zakim> +Ingeborg; got it
15:08:58 <dbooth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-semweb-lifesci/2014Jun/att-0014/rdf-semantic-interop-wg-v2.doc
15:10:18 <Neda> Neda has joined #hcls
15:10:27 <Claude> Claude has joined #hcls
15:10:43 <ericP> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-semweb-lifesci/2014Jun/att-0014/rdf-semantic-interop-wg-v2.doc hl7 draft charter
15:11:04 <dbooth> https://join.me/523-323-048
15:11:30 <Kerstin> works fine
15:12:23 <Zakim> +EmoryFry
15:13:05 <Zakim> +Jos_De_Roo
15:13:33 <eafry> eafry has joined #hcls
15:14:33 <Marc_Belgium> +1 got it
15:16:55 <dbooth> Eric: Maybe change "encourage the use of" to "support the use of"
15:18:47 <dbooth> Eric: Act as expert resources to help say how RDF and OWL can be used
15:19:37 <ericP> ericP: s/encourage/support # act as expert resources
15:20:10 <dbooth> EricP: Support other sorking groups in both OWL ontologies adn RDF data expression.
15:20:18 <dbooth> s/sorking/working/
15:20:28 <ericP> s/ontologies/modeling/
15:20:59 <dbooth> https://join.me/523-323-048
15:21:08 <ericP> s/sorking groups/Working Groups (e.g. RCRIM, FHIR)/
15:22:06 <dbooth> EricP: Could also propose a working group for only RDF-izing FHIR
15:22:28 <Claude> David, you mention interoperability and lossless representation but I would also stress that RDF will also support the computability and inferencing of clinical information which is a key goal of Clinical Decision Support and Clinical Quality Information
15:22:50 <ericP> ericP: we could scale down to FHIR
15:23:06 <Marc_Belgium> IMHO We should not limit on RDF-izing FHIR...
15:23:21 <ericP> dbooth: i see this as wider
15:23:24 <dbooth> Tony: What's the basis of future healthcare systems?  This is even bigger than just the exchange of data.
15:23:36 <ericP> Tony: we want to model health care in general
15:24:02 <ericP> Claude: how do we capture data that used to be unstructured in a structured way?
15:24:37 <Marc_Belgium> exact the task is wider and 'Semantic interoperability ' Layer on HL7 standards means all
15:25:10 <dbooth> EricP: i think HL7 would think of themselves are providing enough to enable structured data for everything.
15:26:00 <ericP> Claude: providing structured data that is interoperable across different HL7 standards
15:26:22 <ericP> ... e.g. a notation of criticality used in FHIR and CDS
15:27:44 <ericP> ericP: they will be suspicious that we will do better with RDF than they did with CDE
15:28:57 <ericP> Claude: i can define my FHIR model using 4 different, local-specific terms for criticality, but all bound to one concept
15:29:01 <Marc_Belgium> +1 this is an expected suspicious situation -- but not a problem
15:29:49 <ericP> Tony: IHTSDO already has ontologies in OWL
15:30:06 <dbooth> Tony: those two efforts should be referenced
15:30:12 <ericP> ... we need to reach out to them
15:30:15 <dbooth> ... ICD-11 is the other
15:30:29 <Marc_Belgium> ICD-11 is not yet there
15:30:33 <ericP> ... the integration between structural models and terminology models has not gone well
15:31:01 <Kerstin> Kerstin has joined #hcls
15:31:04 <ericP> ... note that HL7 has not quality standards for how interop is tested
15:31:08 <Marc_Belgium> they have such plan but I think we should not list them here unless we have a clear communication with them and know where they are
15:31:24 <Marc_Belgium> There are several other external efforts
15:31:28 <dbooth> David: Question: should this work group define concepts or develop ontologies?
15:31:30 <Marc_Belgium> like SMART Platform
15:31:46 <Kerstin> URI standard for SNOMED CT - http://ihtsdo.org/fileadmin/user_upload/doc/download/doc_UriStandard_Current-en-US_INT_20140527.pdf
15:31:53 <ericP> Tony: people have to make arbitrary decisions and then they run into collisions
15:32:16 <Claude> Is this group a subgroup of the TSC?
15:32:27 <Claude> Oops, not TSC
15:32:37 <ericP> dbooth: our work should NOT be defining common concepts
15:32:57 <Claude> I forgot the acronym
15:33:03 <Marc_Belgium> I would not support  developping  ontologies here...
15:33:06 <ericP> Tony: <sarcasm>the world needs yet another health care model</sarcasm>
15:33:07 <Marc_Belgium> but use existing ones
15:33:20 <ericP> ... should this group focus on the convergence
15:33:42 <ericP> ... so what is the work product?
15:34:11 <Claude> The ITS Work Group supports the HL7 mission through the development of Implementable Technology Specifications and Messaging Protocol guidelines (e.g. ebXML, Web Services, Messaging encoding specifications) to be used when implementing the HL7 information specifications.
15:34:14 <ericP> dbooth: specific goals [read from charter]
15:34:37 <ericP> dbooth: create RDF views of existing data
15:34:45 <Marc_Belgium> +1
15:34:46 <ericP> Tony: this is ontology mapping
15:35:32 <ericP> dbooth: if RDF weren't adopted as a representation of FHIR, we could define a mapping from FHIR-JSON to RDF
15:35:42 <ericP> Tony: that's A-box
15:35:53 <ericP> dbooth: T-box is the next bullet
15:36:07 <ericP> Tony: this 1st is instances, 2nd is models
15:36:33 <ericP> ... so the first bullet read like it was about T-box
15:38:43 <ericP> Marc_Belgium: we have several efforts: SMART Platforms, FHIR-RDF, ...
15:39:05 <ericP> ... what we need to produce is a pattern graph which can be mapped to e.g. FHIR et. al
15:39:40 <ericP> ... we need an abstract model that can be used for other models. this would help interop
15:40:35 <dbooth> David: That's what I meant by common data element.
15:40:58 <ericP> Claude, ericP, we don't want to invoke CDE if it wasn't considered successful
15:41:30 <ericP> ... but with RDF, we can define a vague notion
15:42:09 <dbooth> q+ to say that any effort for a common data model or common data elements is in essence the same thing that every specific domain standard tries to do.
15:42:11 <Claude> Claude is raising his hand
15:42:22 <dbooth> ack jos
15:42:23 <ericP> ack Jos_De_Roo
15:42:51 <ericP> dbooth: reponding to suggestion about defining CDEs:
15:43:01 <ericP> ... in essence, that's what every WG tries to do
15:43:19 <ericP> ... i think it's important to work at a higher level
15:43:47 <ericP> ... instead of guessing the common models, work on the process that enables sharing
15:44:07 <dbooth> ack dbooth
15:44:07 <Zakim> dbooth, you wanted to say that any effort for a common data model or common data elements is in essence the same thing that every specific domain standard tries to do.
15:45:15 <ericP> Claude: i think that design-by-constrain, class-based (vs. set-based) historically fails
15:45:24 <Zakim> -Kerstin_Forsberg
15:45:25 <dbooth> claude: the reason this was not successful previously is that classes were defined and it was a closed approach.  It was class based rather than set based.
15:45:49 <ericP> ... the tech that hl7 was using for semantic bridge is ill-suited compared to RDF/OWL
15:46:15 <ericP> dbooth: i can see benefits in that regard, but i've seen it many tines before
15:46:24 <dbooth> xkcd/927
15:47:33 <Marc_Belgium> leavinf for another meeting
15:47:46 <dbooth> thank you marc!
15:48:08 <Marc_Belgium> will keep following this great initiative
15:48:38 <Zakim> -Jos_De_Roo
15:49:48 <eafry> eric and David….I have a comment
15:49:54 <dbooth> Claude: HL7 has ITS group.  They looked at XML representation and made comments.  If we bring in RDF, we should thing about how it relates to the ITS group.
15:49:55 <ericP> Claude: when we were involved in @@1, the ITS group provided [serialization] advice
15:50:12 <ericP> ... we should look hard at the relationship to ITS
15:50:53 <ericP> emory: most of the discussion this AM has perhaps inadvertently been about data model
15:51:15 <ericP> ... the vocabulary needs to evolve as well.
15:51:23 <dbooth> Emory: Most of the discussion this morning has been about data models.  Suggest we enforce or stress that semantic vocabularies need to evolve also, so that we can do subsumption and other reasoning.  There's an effort in ICD-10 and SNOMED, but there may be a role to support vocabulary involvement also.
15:51:56 <ericP> ... the current charter doesn't emphasize the fact that vocabularies are as important as structural model
15:53:05 <Mehmet> https://join.me/523-323-048
15:58:51 <dbooth> EricP: would like to see examination of use cases where different parties interpreted standards differently, and figuring out exactly what is needed for interop.  Create a crystal of interop and build upon it.
15:59:38 <dbooth> David: Those use cases are extremely valuable to work through.
15:59:54 <dbooth> EricP: Give people as few choices as possible except around UI.
16:01:04 <Zakim> -EmoryFry
16:01:46 <dbooth> David: Ideal common data element is only ideal for one party, not for another with a different use case.
16:02:00 <dbooth> EricP: But then you have to look at the cost of conversion if they are different.
16:02:47 <dbooth> Claude: Need clear use cases -- makes it concreted.
16:03:48 <ericP> Tony: there's a critical point beyond which one can't unify and one must instead translate
16:04:12 <ericP> dbooth: i don't want to fall into the trap of thinking we can come up with the right CDEs
16:04:14 <egonw> egonw has joined #HCLS
16:04:28 <ericP> ... hard to predict; might emerge over the next 30 years
16:05:02 <ericP> Tony: i'd like to see differentiation between transformation and unification
16:05:38 <ericP> ... i think RDF and OWL are good for exploring the differences and connecting
16:06:06 <ericP> Claude: we can eliminate this artificial barrier between the model and the terminology
16:07:23 <ericP> dbooth: so "uniformly relate models and terminology"?
16:07:35 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/HCLS/ClinicalObservationsInteroperability/TermInfo
16:08:20 <ericP> -> https://www.timetag.tv/wric/play/23453 terminfo at 17m00s ?
16:08:54 <Zakim> -Tony
16:08:55 <Zakim> -Ingeborg
16:08:55 <Zakim> -Claude
16:08:56 <Zakim> -ericP
16:08:57 <Zakim> -DBooth
16:09:03 <ericP> scribenick: ericP
16:09:06 <Zakim> -Mehmet
16:09:08 <Zakim> -Neda
16:09:10 <Zakim> SW_HCLS()11:00AM has ended
16:09:10 <Zakim> Attendees were DBooth, Mehmet, Kerstin_Forsberg, +1.978.794.aaaa, Tony, +1.469.226.aabb, Neda, ericP, Claude, +1.301.825.aacc, Ingeborg, EmoryFry, Jos_De_Roo
16:09:12 <dbooth> rrsagent, make logs public
16:09:16 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:09:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/10-hcls-minutes.html dbooth
16:09:18 <ericP> scribenick: dbooth
16:09:41 <ericP> dbooth, i can't remember if rrsagent handles n scribenicks
16:10:09 <ericP> you can emperically test this by re-drafting mins and see if they changed
16:10:22 <ericP> (cause i just added you as a scribenick)
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17:41:10 <dbooth> Chair: EricP
17:44:30 <dbooth> Present: David Booth, Mehmet, Kerstin_Forsberg, Tony Mallia, Neda, EricP, Claude, Ingeborg, EmoryFry, Marc_Belgium
17:44:37 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:44:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/10-hcls-minutes.html dbooth
17:49:59 <dbooth> ScribeNick: ericP
17:50:15 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:50:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/10-hcls-minutes.html dbooth
17:53:22 <egonw_> egonw_ has joined #HCLS
17:57:14 <dbooth> i/This is Marc/ScribeNick: ericP/
17:57:22 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:57:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/10-hcls-minutes.html dbooth
18:09:38 <Zakim> Zakim has left #hcls