17:00:12 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:00:12 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/09-aria-irc
17:00:14 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
17:00:14 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
17:00:16 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
17:00:16 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM scheduled to start now
17:00:17 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
17:00:17 <trackbot> Date: 09 June 2014
17:00:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
17:00:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
17:00:58 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
17:02:26 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM has now started
17:02:33 <Zakim> + +1.603.882.aaaa
17:02:34 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:02:49 <joanie> Zakim, aaaa is me
17:02:49 <Zakim> +joanie; got it
17:03:11 <Zakim> +[Apple]
17:03:23 <clown> clown has joined #aria
17:03:24 <jcraig> Zakim, Apple is jcraig
17:03:24 <Zakim> +jcraig; got it
17:04:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jun/0035.html
17:04:44 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
17:04:54 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:04:54 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
17:05:00 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:05:00 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:05:19 <joanie> Zakim, I am Joanmarie_Diggs
17:05:19 <Zakim> sorry, joanie, I do not see a party named 'Joanmarie_Diggs'
17:05:54 <Zakim> + +1.541.678.aabb
17:06:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, 1.541.678.aabb
17:06:15 <Zakim> I don't understand '1.541.678.aabb', richardschwerdtfeger
17:06:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, 1.541.678.aabb is Matt
17:06:31 <Zakim> sorry, richardschwerdtfeger, I do not recognize a party named '1.541.678.aabb'
17:06:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, +1.541.678.aabb ia Matt
17:06:59 <Zakim> I don't understand '+1.541.678.aabb ia Matt', richardschwerdtfeger
17:07:02 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
17:07:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, .aabb is Matt
17:07:09 <Zakim> sorry, richardschwerdtfeger, I do not recognize a party named '.aabb'
17:07:12 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
17:07:50 <joanie> Zakim, joanie is Joanmarie_Diggs
17:07:50 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs; got it
17:10:35 <clown> richardschwerdtfeger:  the history of changes to the spec:  https://github.com/w3c/aria/commits/June_2014_TR/spec
17:10:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> scribe: Matt
17:10:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/June_2014_TR/spec/aria.html
17:11:32 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
17:12:06 <mattking> mattking has joined #aria
17:12:49 <Zakim> + +1.415.624.aacc
17:13:13 <mattking> TOPIC: ARIA 1.1 draft of document status
17:13:48 <mattking> RS: posinset and setsize for tabs should be called out since people have been asking
17:13:58 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
17:14:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> RS: in the Status of This Document
17:14:36 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
17:14:36 <Zakim> sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not see a party named 'Bryan_Garaventa'
17:14:55 <mattking> JC: Alex has brought concerns with describedat; concerns I share. So I added editorial note to that section.
17:15:07 <clown> just in case it's relevant, the change log for the spec:  http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/June_2014_TR/spec/aria.html#changelog
17:15:09 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, aaaa is Bryan_Garaventa
17:15:09 <Zakim> sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
17:16:47 <jamesn> zakim, who is on the call?
17:16:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joanmarie_Diggs, jcraig, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Matt, Cynthia_Shelly, James_Nurthen, +1.415.624.aacc
17:16:59 <jamesn> zakim, aacc is Bryan_Garaventa
17:16:59 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa; got it
17:18:08 <jcraig> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#aria-describedat
17:18:49 <jcraig> Req of concern:  User agents should provide a device-independent mechanism to allow a user to navigate the user agent to content referenced by the @aria-describedat attribute. User agents should also provide a device-independent mechanism to return the user's focus from the descriptive content view to the original content view. For example, a user agent may provide access to the document or document fragment referenced by the the @aria-describedat attribute in a
17:18:50 <jcraig> contextual menu associated with the object.
17:19:30 <jcraig> JC 2014-06-03. The previous paragraph may be at-risk. Implementors from Mozilla, Google, and Apple have expressed concern over the RFC-2119 "should" requirement above: If the statement remains as-is, @aria-describedat would break the ARIA pattern to not affect mainstream UI. Dominic M. mentioned that if this patterned changed, developers may become more "suspicious of ARIA and not want to apply simple accessibility bug fixes without worrying about the implications
17:19:31 <jcraig> for their design." Alex S. said, UI-based requirements "should be rather part of HTML than ARIA."
17:19:33 <mattking> JC: Concern is that the is the first ARIA requirement that modifies user experience.
17:20:29 <mattking> RS: this is a should, not a must.
17:21:01 <mattking> JC: It is a concern  if it is a should. we could change it to a MAY.
17:21:42 <mattking> CS: I agree this is a first for ARIA; I believe it is a good change.
17:21:54 <mattking> CS: Perhaps it should even be a MUST.
17:22:16 <mattking> RS: Cynthia, can you get input from the IE team.
17:22:42 <mattking> JC: We have no plans to implement the UI piece of this in webkit.
17:23:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
17:24:51 <mattking> CS: I would like to add some other content to the editorial note that reflects other views.
17:25:17 <mattking> RS: I see this as very likely showing up in some epub readers.
17:26:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> RS: seeing the Tie between Readium, IDPF, and the Diagram project
17:27:34 <mattking> JC: With SVG, we can now imbed  accessible descriptions both in vector and raster images and make them directly accessible without longdesc or describedat.
17:28:20 <mattking> CS: I will give content to James today to put in the note.
17:28:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Cynthia Get feedback on use of ARIA to drive UI changes in the browser as a “SHOULD” from the IE team
17:28:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1451 - Get feedback on use of aria to drive ui changes in the browser as a “should” from the ie team [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2014-06-16].
17:28:58 <jcraig> action-1451: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#aria-describedat
17:28:58 <trackbot> Notes added to action-1451 Get feedback on use of aria to drive ui changes in the browser as a “should” from the ie team.
17:30:01 <mattking> TOPIC: Implementation guide
17:30:36 <mattking> Joseph:  aaria-checked removed from option; now there is some pushback and I didn't make the change to the guide
17:30:58 <mattking> Joseph: so now guide and mapping may be out of sync
17:32:54 <mattking> Joseph: this is for situations where selections and checked are orthoganal
17:33:37 <mattking> BG: there is a windows component on msdn where for checkable listbox
17:34:21 <bgaraventa1979> Win UI equiv http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.windows.forms.checkedlistbox(v=vs.110).aspx
17:36:02 <mattking> Joanie: If there is nothing definitely prohibiting selection and check from being separate, then we would need to support it. Even if it is not good design.
17:36:55 <joanie> http://www.jqwidgets.com/jquery-widgets-demo/demos/jqxlistbox/index.htm#demos/jqxlistbox/checkboxes.htm
17:38:31 <mattking> Discussion of JQS UI
17:38:38 <jamesn> http://www.jqwidgets.com/jquery-widgets-demo/demos/jqxlistbox/index.htm#demos/jqxlistbox/checkboxes.htm
17:38:53 <joanie> http://www.jqwidgets.com/jquery-widgets-demo/demos/jqxlistbox/index.htm#demos/jqxlistbox/checkboxes.htm
17:47:06 <mattking> RS: We are still looking for use cases where check and selection are independent and have spearate meanings.
17:48:08 <mattking> MK: There could be use cases where checking refers to something like setting a preference and selection is selection for an operation.
17:48:33 <mattking> JC: That could be done with a grid where the element that controls selection is separate.
17:50:13 <mattking> JC: we can use checked on menuitemradio
17:50:32 <mattking> RS: this change is not for menuitems
17:50:44 <mattking> RS: Is it for treeitem?
17:51:27 <mattking> JC: treeitem is really no different from option.
17:51:42 <mattking> RS: we might break some things in trees; need to investigate.
17:51:53 <mattking> CS: What is motiviation for change?
17:53:32 <Zakim> -Joanmarie_Diggs
17:53:49 <mattking> JC: For validation to avoid using the wrong state. Checked and selected are not equivalent and an autor error  can make things not work correctly.
17:54:05 <mattking> JC: one example is radio buttons
17:54:08 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
17:54:30 <mattking> RS: Is it removed from implementation buide?
17:54:52 <mattking> Joseph: it is still in. I was prepared to remove but have not done it.
17:55:25 <jcraig> s/buide/guide/
17:55:50 <mattking> Joseph: Alex plans to ignore aria-checked on option.
17:56:00 <mattking> JC: we do as well.
17:56:18 <jcraig> s/we do /WebKit does /
17:56:42 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
17:57:22 <Zakim> +Jon_Gunderson
17:58:43 <bgaraventa1979> +q
18:00:40 <mattking> JC: aria-checked was in the list of supported states for option because of inheritence but it didn't carry any meaning in so is ignored.
18:01:06 <clown> q+ to mention the testharness wrt option and aria-checked.
18:01:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack richardschwerdtfeger
18:02:06 <mattking> BG: what about partially checked
18:02:18 <mattking> CS: this is common in setup for windows programs
18:03:09 <jcraig> screen shot http://i.msdn.microsoft.com/ff956194.Waldman_Figure1_hires(en-us,MSDN.10).jpg
18:04:09 <jcraig> mixed: http://i.technet.microsoft.com/dynimg/IC562743.png
18:06:52 <joanie> http://csharp.net-informations.com/gui/cs-checkedlistbox.htm
18:07:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:09:11 <mattking> Joanie: this example with days of the week has some partially checked items in a listbox
18:09:29 <mattking> Joanie: Tuesday is partially checked.
18:11:42 <mattking> JC: propose that we remove selected from radio and checkbox but leave checked on option
18:11:55 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #aria
18:12:22 <jcraig> add checked back to option, which will inherit to treeitem
18:12:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:14:07 <jcraig> leave radio and checkbox unchanged in the spec (no longer has aria-selected in aria 1.1)
18:18:58 <mattking> RESOLUTION: in spec, restore aria-checked to option role. In implementation guide, remove optional mapping of aria-selected from radio and menuitemradio.
18:19:54 <jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to add aria-checked back to option, and let it inherit to treeitem
18:19:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1452 - Add aria-checked back to option, and let it inherit to treeitem [on James Craig - due 2014-06-16].
18:20:53 <joanie> :)
18:21:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:21:26 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testresults?testsuite_id=1&testcase_id=202
18:21:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack bgaraventa1979
18:21:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack bgaraventa
18:22:00 <jcraig> ACTION: joseph to remove optional text about mapping aria-checked on checkbox/radio
18:22:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1453 - Remove optional text about mapping aria-checked on checkbox/radio [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2014-06-16].
18:22:37 <jcraig> zakim, associate action-1453 with product-17
18:22:37 <Zakim> I don't understand 'associate action-1453 with product-17', jcraig
18:23:02 <jcraig> action-1452? action-1453?
18:23:10 <jcraig> action-1452?
18:23:10 <trackbot> action-1452 -- James Craig to Add aria-checked back to option, and let it inherit to treeitem -- due 2014-06-16 -- OPEN
18:23:10 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1452
18:23:13 <jcraig> action-1453?
18:23:13 <trackbot> action-1453 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Remove optional text about mapping aria-checked on checkbox/radio -- due 2014-06-16 -- OPEN
18:23:13 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1453
18:24:38 <mattking> rrsagent, make minutes
18:24:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/09-aria-minutes.html mattking
18:24:53 <joanie> jcraig: link please?
18:26:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent,  make log publci
18:26:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
18:26:45 <mattking> rrsagent, make minutes
18:26:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/09-aria-minutes.html mattking
18:27:00 <clown> #aapi
18:27:58 <Zakim> -Jon_Gunderson
18:28:07 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
18:28:08 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
18:28:09 <joanie> It's jcraig's birthday? Happy Birthday!!
18:28:11 <Zakim> -Bryan_Garaventa
18:28:16 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:28:18 <Zakim> -jcraig
18:28:23 <Zakim> -Joanmarie_Diggs
18:28:25 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
18:28:26 <mattking> zakim bye
18:28:33 <mattking> zakim, bye
18:28:33 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were +1.603.882.aaaa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, jcraig, Joseph_Scheuhammer, +1.541.678.aabb, Matt, Cynthia_Shelly, James_Nurthen,
18:28:33 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
18:28:35 <jcraig> happy belated to james n, too
18:28:36 <Zakim> ... Joanmarie_Diggs, +1.415.624.aacc, Bryan_Garaventa, Jon_Gunderson
18:28:45 <mattking> rrsagent, make minutes
18:28:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/09-aria-minutes.html mattking
18:28:59 <jcraig> jcraig has left #aria
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18:44:42 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #aria
20:06:16 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
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