14:51:20 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webapps
14:51:20 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/06-webapps-irc
14:51:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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14:51:24 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be DOM3
14:51:24 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:51:25 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
14:51:25 <trackbot> Date: 06 June 2014
14:51:37 <darobin> Zakim, this will be webapps
14:51:37 <Zakim> ok, darobin; I see IA_WebApps()11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:52:03 <darobin> Chair: darobin
14:52:05 <darobin> Scribe: darobin
14:52:14 <darobin> Present+ Robin_Berjon
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14:52:59 <Zakim> IA_WebApps()11:00AM has now started
14:53:06 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
14:53:24 <darobin> you're a bit early on the call :)
14:53:28 <BenjamP> yes
14:53:51 <adrianba> zakim, [Microsoft] is BenjamP
14:53:51 <Zakim> +BenjamP; got it
14:54:01 <darobin> adrianba: are you on the call too?
14:54:06 <adrianba> not yet
14:54:15 <adrianba> 6 more minutes ;)
14:54:30 <adrianba> you don't need to hear me slurp my coffee
14:54:30 <darobin> FWIW I flagged myself as chair, but that's just formalism; no pretence to whatever
14:54:44 <Zakim> +??P1
14:54:51 <darobin> and if someone else desperately feels like scribing I won't stand in the way
14:55:01 <BenjamP> it's all you:) thanks!
14:55:27 <PiotrekKoszulinski> I guess ??P1 is me. Should I ask Zakim to change my name?
14:56:00 <Zakim> + +1.415.736.aaaa
14:56:02 <darobin> Zakim, ??P1 is PiotrekKoszulinski
14:56:02 <Zakim> +PiotrekKoszulinski; got it
14:57:05 <Travis> Travis has joined #webapps
14:57:09 <dom> dom has joined #webapps
14:57:34 <xiaoqian> zakim, call xiaoqian-mobile
14:57:34 <Zakim> ok, xiaoqian; the call is being made
14:57:36 <Zakim> +Xiaoqian
14:59:05 <jparent_> Zakim, 1.415.736.aaaa is jparent_
14:59:05 <Zakim> sorry, jparent_, I do not recognize a party named '1.415.736.aaaa'
14:59:31 <jparent_> Zakim, +1.415.736.aaaa is jparent_
14:59:31 <Zakim> +jparent_; got it
14:59:44 <darobin> Zakim, code?
14:59:44 <Zakim> the conference code is 9274 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), darobin
14:59:56 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:59:59 <darobin> Zakim, [ is me
15:00:00 <Zakim> +darobin; got it
15:00:05 <darobin> Zakim, who is here?
15:00:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see BenjamP, PiotrekKoszulinski, jparent_, Xiaoqian, darobin
15:00:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see dom, Travis, adrianba, Zakim, RRSAgent, lgombos, jparent_, fjh, lmclister, BenjamP, smaug, skddc, xiaoqian, PiotrekKoszulinski, darobin, jparent, hober, tyoshino,
15:00:08 <Zakim> ... stryx`, dcooney__, paul___irish, gavin, ed, heycam|away, kochi1, kochi, mounir, logbot, terri, Hixie, krijnhoetmer, shepazu, kentaromiura, schuki, timeless_, hayato, dfreedm,
15:00:12 <Zakim> ... scheib___, slightlyoff, cwilso, FerasM_, astearns, tobie_, dglazkov, jsbell, cabanier, Domenic, esprehn, pdr, MikeSmith, krit, gsnedders, trackbot, Yves, decadance, jgraham
15:00:22 <Zakim> + +1.425.614.aabb
15:00:27 <adrianba> zakim, aabb is me
15:00:27 <Zakim> +adrianba; got it
15:01:45 <darobin> Robin: W3C
15:01:47 <BenjamP> Explainer is currently at http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer/commands-explainer.html
15:03:01 <darobin> BenjamP: from Microsoft, wrote the commands explainer
15:03:16 <darobin> PiotrekKoszulinski: CKEditor
15:03:25 <darobin> jparent_: Google, worked on text editro
15:03:28 <darobin> xiaoqian: W3C
15:03:31 <darobin> adrianba: Microsoft too
15:04:37 <darobin> BenjamP: want to give some context, goals we have, then have a few topics of debate: invoking commands, using cE=minimal or have it as a concept, beforeinput vs commandevent, and command data context
15:04:43 <darobin> ... very open to other things
15:05:33 <darobin> Robin: would like to list issues and get away with some sort of plan
15:05:37 <darobin> BenjamP: anything else?
15:05:49 <darobin> Topic: Context
15:06:02 <darobin> BenjamP: cEmin is something that came up in a meeting earlier this year
15:06:13 <darobin> ... both MS and Google had thought of it
15:06:28 <darobin> ... looking for a way to minify cE to have few or no default handling, bold, enter, etc.
15:06:56 <darobin> ... in order to help sites figure out what users are trying to do Command,IntentionEvent were a way to figure out what users are trying to do
15:07:28 <darobin> ... finally I just recently sent something about query command that can enable overwriting of commands by frameworks
15:07:32 <darobin> ... and help browser determine UI
15:07:44 <darobin> ... that's farther-reaching and possibly out of scope for right now
15:08:46 <darobin> Robin: this is in line with the Summit findings, and we'd like to have another Summit in Berlin in September, and have editing be discussed there
15:08:59 <darobin> PiotrekKoszulinski: that would be great, we're based in Poland, other editors are also in Europe
15:09:22 <darobin> Topic: Goals
15:09:35 <darobin> BenjamP: let's make sure we agree on what we're trying to accomplish
15:09:45 <darobin> ... simplify all the different ways that input can be done for editing
15:10:00 <darobin> ... assist sites in disabling default input so that they can do exactly what they want to do for their context
15:10:32 <darobin> Robin: we have to take i18n into account, which is difficult but part of input
15:10:42 <darobin> BenjamP: definitely, especially keyboard, browsers can make that available to script
15:10:46 <adrianba> q+
15:10:52 <darobin> Topic: Invoking Commands
15:11:19 <darobin> BenjamP: discuss using execCommand, since it takes string, it's extensible
15:11:36 <darobin> ... if we want to fire a command event for stuff we don't support we can just use any string
15:11:51 <darobin> ... perhaps more web friendly, notably with selection, which in turn can fire an event
15:12:04 <darobin> ... instead of having a generic method that takes a string, you have a specific method
15:12:08 <darobin> ... same as with Clipboard
15:12:15 <darobin> ... lots of discussion there
15:12:23 <darobin> ... how do we determine best way forward
15:12:45 <xiaoqian> ack adrianba
15:13:24 <darobin> adrianba: are we aligned with the notion of the extensible web manifesto in terms of adding the lowest-level primitives?
15:13:33 <darobin> ... I think it's what most of the people engaged in the conversation want
15:13:51 <darobin> ... especially since the people with experience doing editing tools seem to lean this way
15:14:25 <darobin> ... but I have heard from a few people both at MS and glazou who wanted more of a "better cE" that would make it easy to add input type=rich
15:14:39 <darobin> ... I'm guessing that's not what we're trying to do
15:15:00 <darobin> ... one way forward trying to figure out whether we have the most basic thing we can add, keep finding primitives
15:16:08 <darobin> Robin: I think that's pretty representative of what I've heard
15:16:18 <darobin> ... it's possible to also improve cE, but that can be a separate project
15:16:35 <darobin> BenjamP: my understanding is that cE is just one type of editor
15:16:54 <darobin> ... and since there are so many editors, so just one option doesn't cut it
15:17:13 <darobin> http://extensiblewebmanifesto.org/
15:17:35 <darobin> ... I agree with this goal, it has come up more than once, just having the enabling primitives and help make things simpler
15:18:17 <darobin> BenjamP: for execCommand, the 2nd arg is almost never used, we can't just remove it, at least not at this point
15:18:42 <darobin> ... but my proposal is that we keep the first arg, and the 2nd can be (boolean or DOMObject)
15:18:51 <darobin> ... alternatively we could have another method
15:19:09 <darobin> jparent_: I'm having a hard time figuring how this fits into just enabling primitives
15:19:28 <darobin> BenjamP: sure, we are primarily enabling sites to understand what users wants to do
15:19:52 <darobin> ... so if a site wants to change what Ctrl-B does, the site can intercept that and replace that with their own
15:20:07 <darobin> ... without that, they can't use the same pipeline
15:20:21 <darobin> ... they can listen to bold and override
15:22:34 <darobin> Robin: I am not convinced that we need something as high-level as bold
15:22:44 <darobin> jparent_: I completely agree with that, it's already complicated
15:22:54 <darobin> ... could be strong, b, etc.
15:22:59 <darobin> BenjamP: I think that's two things
15:23:05 <darobin> ... we shouldn't define bold
15:23:32 <darobin> ... we just give the user the fact that the user intends to bold
15:23:37 <darobin> ... notably cross language
15:24:56 <darobin> Robin: I don't disagree that there are locale-dependent shortcuts but something like bold seems too high level to me
15:25:13 <darobin> ... I'd like to solve lower level like selection, newline, delete
15:25:26 <darobin> BenjamP: how would we expose those?
15:27:00 <darobin> Robin: so you could have multiple newline events (Enter vs newline), and delete would match platform convention to a range that would then be communicated to the script
15:27:54 <darobin> BenjamP: interception of selection for special deletion
15:28:17 <darobin> Robin: it would help to have some code
15:28:36 <darobin> BenjamP: if we just give the selection I think we've lost the context of where the user was, we lose the intent
15:29:03 <darobin> PiotrekKoszulinski: I think that Fx has an example, you can take the range from the Drop event — I'd like to have that on deletion events
15:29:11 <darobin> ... I think this is the best way to handle this
15:29:19 <darobin> ... the event has to carry the range before there's a change
15:30:02 <darobin> Robin: if the selection hasn't changed when you get the deletion event, you can probably infer a lot
15:30:24 <darobin> BenjamP: sounds like we want to solve a few lower-level problems before we figure out the APIs, which makes sense
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15:30:37 <darobin> ... a smaller set of commands sounds like what everyone is interested in
15:30:40 <darobin> [no disagreement]
15:31:02 <darobin> BenjamP: also, the expected state carried in the command, current state is already availabel
15:31:12 <darobin> Topic: cE=minimal
15:31:25 <darobin> BenjamP: that was the original concept that started the discussion
15:31:49 <darobin> ... but then jparent_ pointed out that you can cancel intention events, and cancelling them all just gives you a minimal
15:32:01 <darobin> ... so we might not need the markup
15:32:12 <darobin> jparent_: I don't think we need it
15:32:35 <darobin> ... minimal wants two things: get a cursor, and advanced events
15:32:42 <darobin> ... I don't need they need to be tied to editability
15:33:34 <darobin> Robin: so we could reuse those events, e.g. for non text edition you could have deletion
15:33:40 <darobin> jparent_: exactly, for things other than text
15:33:52 <darobin> BenjamP: we have to be careful not to enable a new way to code websites
15:34:14 <darobin> ... if they become so powerful then everything that a user is trying to do might be handled that way
15:34:19 <darobin> ... we should have the kitchen sink
15:35:05 <darobin> Robin: I think we can try to design this without cEmin, but if it becomes problematic we can backtrack
15:35:21 <darobin> jparent_: I think these stay focused on editing
15:36:24 <darobin> Robin: maybe the ability to receive intention events triggers on focus?
15:36:38 <darobin> PiotrekKoszulinski: I don't know if a lot of those events make sense in a different context
15:37:59 <darobin> Robin: I have a concern that if we expand these events beyond text editing we might be boiling the ocean
15:38:16 <darobin> BenjamP: the ability to override keyboard events has value also in text, so it is useful there
15:38:24 <darobin> ... Sublime has lots of keyboard shortcuts
15:38:48 <darobin> ... but instead of the way it is today where you have to listen to keyboard events and handle them, we could have a mapping of keyboard events to commands
15:39:07 <darobin> ... so all you do in the keyboard handler is map to the command, and handle the command as you have always done
15:40:08 <darobin> Robin: we can keep command events and the way they are bound into the platform orthogonal
15:40:21 <darobin> Topic: beforeinput and beforeselectionchange
15:40:31 <darobin> BenjamP: selection event would be the event for selection
15:40:49 <darobin> ... command event for menus and such
15:40:57 <darobin> ... text input is a special case
15:41:09 <darobin> ... beforeinput can help you determine how to handle things
15:41:24 <darobin> ... but today, input events fire for all sorts of things including paste events
15:41:35 <darobin> ... so I'm concerned that beforeinput might cause duplication
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15:42:26 <Travis_> DOM3 folks added it (beforeinput) as a replacement for keypress (deprecated).
15:42:31 <darobin> Robin: if we can simplify it one way or the other (paste/input separate, or input with indication that it's a paste) it's best
15:42:38 <darobin> ... having two events for the same content is madness
15:42:53 <darobin> BenjamP: we could just have a commandevent with insert-text as its type
15:43:02 <darobin> ... we could just use that on the event side as well
15:43:23 <darobin> Topic: Splitting up work
15:43:34 <darobin> BenjamP: we definitely have some research, look at frameworks
15:44:59 <darobin> Robin: if we can get people involved all the better
15:45:07 <darobin> ... we can have a mailing list
15:46:14 <darobin> adrianba: that was definitely helpful with the media TF where we were trying to appeal to a specific audience
15:47:39 <adrianba> +1
15:47:47 <PiotrekKoszulinski> +1
15:47:47 <darobin> ACTION: Robin to create an Editing TF
15:47:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-731 - Create an editing tf [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-06-13].
15:48:00 <darobin> BenjamP: we need a normative spec
15:48:07 <darobin> ... as well as updates to the explainer
15:48:16 <darobin> ... without cE, we need Command Events
15:49:08 <darobin> Robin: we need to define the binding with HTML too
15:49:22 <darobin> BenjamP: we need an editor, and we need to figure out when we make them official
15:49:33 <darobin> Robin: is editing already in the WebApps charter
15:50:00 <darobin> ACTION: Robin to figure out how we handle the chartering business
15:50:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-732 - Figure out how we handle the chartering business [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-06-13].
15:50:49 <darobin> BenjamP: update the explainer with this information, then write some specs
15:50:57 <darobin> ... and file bugs, improve work
15:51:05 <darobin> ... the current discussion is hard to track
15:51:40 <darobin> Robin: we can reuse the Bz for the Editing API or the GH issues
15:51:44 <darobin> BenjamP: GitHub it is!
15:52:02 <darobin> Robin: BenjamP you're willing to edit?
15:52:06 <darobin> BenjamP: yes
15:52:21 <darobin> Robin: I'm happy to edit too
15:52:56 <darobin> ... we also need the Selection API
15:53:08 <darobin> BenjamP: yes, rniwa said he didn't have much time not long ago
15:53:18 <darobin> jparent_: my impression was that after WWDC he'd have more time
15:53:30 <darobin> ACTION: Robin to ask rniwa how he wants to handle Selection
15:53:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-733 - Ask rniwa how he wants to handle selection [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-06-13].
15:54:04 <darobin> Robin: I would encourage people to start using the tracker
15:54:17 <darobin> BenjamP: other call?
15:55:22 <darobin> Robin: we could say that Fri 8am PST is always the time, but we call it on an ad hoc basis
15:55:30 <darobin> RESOLUTION: Fri 8am PST is always the time, but we call it on an ad hoc basis
15:55:50 <Zakim> -BenjamP
15:55:52 <Zakim> -adrianba
15:55:53 <Zakim> -PiotrekKoszulinski
15:55:55 <Zakim> -Xiaoqian
15:55:55 <Zakim> -darobin
15:55:56 <Zakim> -jparent_
15:55:56 <Zakim> IA_WebApps()11:00AM has ended
15:55:56 <Zakim> Attendees were BenjamP, PiotrekKoszulinski, Xiaoqian, jparent_, [IPcaller], darobin, +1.425.614.aabb, adrianba
15:56:01 <darobin> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:56:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/06-webapps-minutes.html darobin
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