IRC log of csvw on 2014-06-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

11:47:17 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #csvw
11:47:17 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/04-csvw-irc
11:47:19 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
11:47:19 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #csvw
11:47:21 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be CSVW
11:47:21 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
11:47:22 [trackbot]
Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference
11:47:22 [trackbot]
Date: 04 June 2014
11:47:30 [ivan]
Chair: Dan Brickley
11:47:33 [danbri]
thanks, ivan!
11:47:57 [ivan]
Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-06-04
11:48:12 [ivan]
ivan has changed the topic to: 2014-06-04 Meeting agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-06-04
11:52:12 [danbri1]
danbri1 has joined #csvw
11:57:41 [Zakim]
DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has now started
11:57:49 [Zakim]
+ +44.207.346.aaaa
11:57:54 [danbri]
zakim, aaaa is danbri
11:57:54 [Zakim]
+danbri; got it
11:58:08 [jtandy]
jtandy has joined #csvw
11:58:12 [ivan]
zakim, code?
11:58:12 [Zakim]
the conference code is 2789 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
11:58:26 [Zakim]
+ivan
11:59:23 [Zakim]
+jtandy
11:59:36 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
11:59:44 [AndyS]
zakim, IPCaller is me
11:59:44 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
11:59:45 [PhilA_]
PhilA_ has joined #csvw
11:59:56 [danbri]
zakim, who is on the call?
11:59:57 [Zakim]
restarting bot to recover state
11:59:58 [Zakim]
On the phone I see danbri, ivan, jtandy, AndyS
12:00:16 [JeniT]
JeniT has joined #csvw
12:01:22 [danbri]
he's near ralph, which is even better
12:02:09 [ivan]
per ralph, one can still dial in
12:02:28 [ivan]
I will have to dial back, my call got grabled, though
12:02:31 [estephan]
estephan has joined #csvw
12:02:42 [jtandy]
yes - i saw the report - I'm pictured twice!
12:03:27 [AndyS]
zakim, are you here?
12:03:52 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
12:03:54 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be CSVW
12:03:55 [trackbot]
Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference
12:03:55 [trackbot]
Date: 04 June 2014
12:04:13 [ivan]
zakim, who is here?
12:04:43 [ivan]
present: phil, dan, jeni, jeremy, andy, eric
12:04:56 [ivan]
present+ ivan
12:05:43 [danbri]
Scribe: AndyS
12:05:45 [AndyS]
scribenick: AndyS
12:05:50 [danbri]
https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-06-04
12:05:55 [AndyS]
scribe: Andy Seaborne
12:06:14 [AndyS]
No formal meeting last week.
12:06:17 [danbri]
week before last's meeting: http://www.w3.org/2014/05/21-csvw-minutes.html
12:06:48 [AndyS]
topic: Progressing XML & JSON conversions
12:07:18 [AndyS]
danbri: need people to champion these formats
12:07:31 [AndyS]
jtandy: we have UC for each format
12:08:00 [AndyS]
jenit: co-chairs intend to reach out to members of the WG
12:08:43 [DavideCeolin]
DavideCeolin has joined #csvw
12:08:46 [AndyS]
danbri: test cases - need structure in the repo for examples/test cases.
12:09:25 [AndyS]
... inputs directory for csv, and then folder per output possibility
12:09:36 [AndyS]
... can compare the different approaches.
12:09:59 [AndyS]
... go though UCs and get the CSVs then produce outputs
12:10:14 [ivan]
q+
12:10:27 [AndyS]
jtandy: makes sense ... UCs already have files for CSV inputs
12:10:44 [AndyS]
danbri: target presentations given?
12:11:01 [AndyS]
jtandy: somewhat but not systematic.
12:11:55 [AndyS]
... starting point, UC#21, TSV, some possible geojson output from that
12:12:18 [AndyS]
danbri: allow different mappings with close position of different mappings
12:12:35 [JeniT]
q+
12:12:39 [danbri]
q?
12:12:42 [AndyS]
estephen: (missed)
12:12:45 [danbri]
zakim> ivan, jeni
12:12:48 [AndyS]
q = ivan, jenit
12:12:53 [danbri]
ack ivan
12:12:56 [danbri]
q> jeni
12:12:56 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #csvw
12:13:01 [danbri]
zakim!!
12:13:04 [JeniT]
s/(missed)/UC#6 is an interesting one/
12:13:10 [ivan]
zakim, this is csvw
12:13:10 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; that matches DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM
12:13:29 [danbri]
zakim, who is on the phone?
12:13:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see danbri, jtandy, +1.509.554.aaaa, [IPcaller], +1.617.324.aaaa, [IPcaller.a], ??P17
12:13:48 [AndyS]
zakim, IPCaller is me
12:13:48 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
12:13:55 [estephan]
zakim, I am +1.509.554
12:13:55 [Zakim]
ok, estephan, I now associate you with +1.509.554.aaaa
12:13:57 [danbri]
q?
12:14:02 [JeniT]
q+
12:14:40 [AndyS]
ivan: procedure -- if we use UC as test cases, we have be careful because once in /TR/ files are frozen
12:14:49 [AndyS]
zakim, who am I?
12:14:49 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, AndyS.
12:15:00 [danbri]
ack jenit
12:15:02 [AndyS]
zakim, who is on the phone?
12:15:02 [Zakim]
On the phone I see danbri, jtandy, +1.509.554.aaaa, PhilA_, +1.617.324.aaaa, JeniT, ??P17
12:15:10 [danbri]
[slightly muffled audio]
12:15:24 [estephan]
zakim, I am +1.509.554
12:15:24 [Zakim]
ok, estephan, I now associate you with +1.509.554.aaaa
12:15:31 [jtandy]
zakim, mute me
12:15:31 [Zakim]
jtandy should now be muted
12:15:35 [AndyS]
jenit: in the structure have different metadata for same CSV file.
12:15:36 [DavideCeolin]
zakim, ??P17 is me
12:15:36 [Zakim]
+DavideCeolin; got it
12:15:47 [ivan]
zakim, I am +1.617
12:15:47 [Zakim]
+ivan; got it
12:15:47 [AndyS]
danbri: good point
12:15:57 [jtandy]
zakim, unmute me
12:15:57 [Zakim]
jtandy was not muted, jtandy
12:16:22 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P17 is me
12:16:22 [Zakim]
I already had ??P17 as DavideCeolin, AndyS
12:16:26 [danbri]
(maybe a raw_source, canonical_source)
12:16:36 [danbri]
+ multiple metadata + mapping files
12:16:38 [danbri]
q?
12:16:40 [jtandy]
zakim, mute me
12:16:40 [Zakim]
jtandy should now be muted
12:16:43 [ivan]
zakim, who is here?
12:16:43 [Zakim]
On the phone I see danbri, jtandy, +1.509.554.aaaa, PhilA_, ivan, JeniT, DavideCeolin
12:16:46 [Zakim]
On IRC I see DavideCeolin, estephan, JeniT, PhilA_, jtandy, danbri, RRSAgent, ivan, AndyS, gkellogg, fresco, trackbot
12:16:58 [DavideCeolin]
ops sorry AndyS, I thought that was last assigned id
12:17:00 [AndyS]
topic: metadata format
12:17:21 [JeniT]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-csv-wg/2014Jun/0012.html
12:17:32 [AndyS]
jenit: conversation with Rufus
12:18:20 [AndyS]
... metadata specifying parsing options and whether CSV is 1-1 aligned to the "tabular format"
12:18:57 [AndyS]
... #1 - standard CSV files , frags work
12:19:03 [danbri]
cf http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hausenblas-csv-fragment-02
12:19:21 [estephan]
zakim, +1.509.554 is me
12:19:21 [Zakim]
+estephan; got it
12:19:26 [AndyS]
... #2 - parsing options - e.g separator
12:19:58 [AndyS]
q+
12:20:16 [danbri]
losing audio
12:20:22 [danbri]
buzzzing noise
12:20:22 [fonso]
fonso has joined #csvw
12:20:24 [ivan]
zakim, drop me
12:20:24 [Zakim]
ivan is being disconnected
12:20:26 [Zakim]
-ivan
12:20:29 [estephan]
aliens landing?
12:21:12 [AndyS]
.. #3 padding around the CSV data, maybe more than one table in one file
12:21:15 [AndyS]
q-
12:21:18 [danbri]
q+ to suggest metadata linking dataset packages could work; package A could be TSV with fluff; package B could be a downstream transform of A
12:21:21 [danbri]
q?
12:21:28 [ivan]
zakim, code?
12:21:28 [Zakim]
the conference code is 2789 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
12:21:44 [jtandy]
zakim, unmute me
12:21:44 [Zakim]
jtandy was not muted, jtandy
12:21:47 [jtandy]
q+
12:22:07 [jtandy]
zakim, mute me
12:22:07 [Zakim]
jtandy should now be muted
12:22:18 [JeniT]
andys: I think we’ll need to do a bit of #3
12:22:27 [JeniT]
… especially to handle padding
12:22:33 [JeniT]
… because tabular data is made to look nice in Excel
12:22:43 [Zakim]
+Danny
12:22:52 [JeniT]
… the question is how much attention to pay to that
12:22:53 [ivan]
zakim, Danny is ivan
12:22:55 [Zakim]
+ivan; got it
12:23:02 [danbri]
q?
12:23:11 [PhilA_]
ack danbri
12:23:11 [Zakim]
danbri, you wanted to suggest metadata linking dataset packages could work; package A could be TSV with fluff; package B could be a downstream transform of A
12:23:18 [PhilA_]
q+
12:23:22 [AndyS]
danbri: not great if input has appearance
12:23:43 [AndyS]
... but pointing into cells good
12:24:07 [Zakim]
+??P25
12:24:09 [AndyS]
... maybe CSV original => CSV cleaned => tabular data
12:24:18 [fonso]
Zakim, ??P25 is me
12:24:18 [Zakim]
+fonso; got it
12:24:18 [danbri]
q?
12:24:26 [ivan]
q+
12:24:44 [AndyS]
jenit: that is #1 -- metadata refs cleaned file
12:25:34 [danbri]
andy: risk of losing row/col refs to shape of the original file
12:25:34 [AndyS]
andys: reference issue on rows
12:25:42 [jtandy]
zakim, unmute me
12:25:42 [Zakim]
jtandy should no longer be muted
12:25:43 [danbri]
ack jtandy
12:26:07 [AndyS]
jtandy: suggest #1, #2 - agree -- and fixed format forms
12:26:37 [AndyS]
... re: #3 -- location of data in the file. -- the frag relative to that datum.
12:26:50 [AndyS]
jenit: yes - that's the idea in the message
12:27:10 [danbri]
q?
12:27:20 [AndyS]
... rows, cols references do not match the original file.
12:27:46 [AndyS]
jtandy: provide a tool to extract the data in the processing pipeline.
12:27:58 [PhilA_]
q-
12:28:10 [danbri]
[re tooling, I stumbled across http://tablib.readthedocs.org/en/latest/tutorial/#quickstart yesterday, quite promising]
12:28:11 [jtandy]
zakim, mute me
12:28:11 [Zakim]
jtandy should now be muted
12:28:13 [danbri]
ack ivan
12:28:14 [AndyS]
... step one can be extract : pure #3 is potentially confusing
12:28:40 [AndyS]
ivan: is metadata content is generated by parsing or instructs the parser?
12:28:51 [AndyS]
jenit: latter - it is input to parser
12:29:23 [AndyS]
ivan: tab data model is non-norm on this -- not a charter item (in IETF)
12:29:37 [AndyS]
... need to come up with test cases etc.
12:30:46 [AndyS]
jenit: is more work. Think that #2 + explain how to use the hints.
12:30:48 [danbri]
[there's some difference between defining a kind of software component ('parser'), versus giving metadata description of mappings from chars to tabular datasets]
12:31:09 [danbri]
q?
12:31:32 [AndyS]
q+ to ask that an issue is left in doc about this for community.
12:31:46 [danbri]
JeniT also suggested we discuss 'separating 'schema' from 'notes'' under this item
12:32:09 [danbri]
ack andys
12:32:09 [Zakim]
AndyS, you wanted to ask that an issue is left in doc about this for community.
12:32:23 [danbri]
andys: can we have an issue is left in doc about this
12:32:37 [jtandy]
q+
12:32:44 [danbri]
ivan: we can't avoid the procedural issue that IETF standardise CSV
12:32:57 [danbri]
q+
12:33:07 [jtandy]
zakim, unmute me
12:33:07 [Zakim]
jtandy was not muted, jtandy
12:33:07 [AndyS]
q-
12:33:11 [danbri]
ack jtandy
12:33:40 [AndyS]
jtandy: multistep processing to get tabular data format. Provide information tools/advice.
12:33:43 [danbri]
q?
12:33:48 [jtandy]
zakim, mute me
12:33:48 [Zakim]
jtandy should now be muted
12:34:18 [danbri]
jeni: there are other RFCs for other delimited formats
12:34:26 [AndyS]
jenit: encoding and header are in RFC anyway ... other RFCs for other formats ... escape is boarderline.
12:34:35 [danbri]
q?
12:34:42 [danbri]
ack me
12:34:52 [AndyS]
... encourages people to create good files.
12:35:27 [danbri]
ack me
12:35:29 [AndyS]
danbri: IETF/W3C is not a worrying disconnect -- stuff to do
12:35:42 [AndyS]
subtopic: notes for schemas
12:35:46 [danbri]
vs schemas
12:35:57 [danbri]
"separating 'schema' from 'notes'"
12:36:10 [AndyS]
jenit: separate out the schema that can be reused across files
12:36:23 [jtandy]
+1
12:36:26 [ivan]
+1
12:36:27 [danbri]
q?
12:36:29 [ivan]
q+
12:36:45 [danbri]
ack ivan
12:37:17 [AndyS]
ivan: in current doc - bare JSON and JSON-LD examples - decide?
12:37:29 [AndyS]
jenit: aiming for JSON-LD compatibility
12:37:29 [danbri]
topic: Model for Tabular Data and Metadata on the Web (Jeni)
12:37:59 [danbri]
"renaming 'fields' to 'cells' to avoid culture clash"
12:38:09 [AndyS]
jenit: renaming 'fields' to 'cells' to avoid culture clash -- "field" is a column
12:38:22 [ivan]
+1
12:38:24 [AndyS]
(what is the CSV RFC terminology?)
12:38:25 [danbri]
+1
12:38:32 [jtandy]
thankyou
12:38:55 [danbri]
record = field *(COMMA field)
12:38:58 [danbri]
in http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4180
12:39:04 [AndyS]
jenit: records and fields in RFC
12:39:35 [danbri]
"determine if we are happy that _all_ RTL tabular data is logically the same as LTR tabular data - just that it is rendered differently"
12:39:37 [jtandy]
zakim, unmute me
12:39:37 [Zakim]
jtandy was not muted, jtandy
12:39:41 [JeniT]
http://w3c.github.io/csvw/syntax/#bidirectionality-in-csv-files
12:39:45 [danbri]
(does scribe bot have notion of a subtopic?)
12:40:12 [AndyS]
q+ to ask if the intention to use field as column?
12:41:00 [danbri]
q?
12:41:01 [JeniT]
AndyS, no: we will keep ‘column’ as ‘column’
12:41:01 [AndyS]
danbri: need to grab a copy.
12:41:07 [AndyS]
ack me
12:41:07 [Zakim]
AndyS, you wanted to ask if the intention to use field as column?
12:41:12 [jtandy]
q+
12:42:11 [jtandy]
q-
12:42:14 [AndyS]
jtandy: data is serialized byte 0, byte 1 , ... and RTL is about display.
12:42:35 [AndyS]
ivan: same every RTL location?
12:42:40 [danbri]
q+ on RTL and separators
12:42:41 [danbri]
q?
12:42:57 [AndyS]
... question to Yakov
12:43:15 [jtandy]
zakim, mute me
12:43:15 [Zakim]
jtandy should now be muted
12:43:17 [AndyS]
jenit: highlighted in doc to be published.
12:43:33 [AndyS]
ivan: remind me to follow up with W3C offices
12:43:34 [danbri]
ack danbri
12:43:34 [Zakim]
danbri, you wanted to comment on RTL and separators
12:43:58 [danbri]
ack danbri
12:44:13 [jtandy]
zakim, unmute me
12:44:13 [Zakim]
jtandy was not muted, jtandy
12:44:32 [AndyS]
topic: Use cases and requirements
12:44:33 [danbri]
q?
12:44:41 [AndyS]
jtandy: in good shape.
12:45:20 [AndyS]
... HL7 -- maybe too ambitious - complex encoding. Drop?
12:45:53 [AndyS]
... currently incomplete and no requirements so just leaving it as is is not good.
12:46:09 [AndyS]
... from James McKinney (sp?)
12:46:20 [AndyS]
jenit: ping contributor?
12:46:48 [danbri]
q+ to suggest an 'other topics' section if don't have one
12:47:05 [danbri]
ack me
12:47:05 [Zakim]
danbri, you wanted to suggest an 'other topics' section if don't have one
12:47:06 [estephan]
q+
12:47:41 [danbri]
ack estaphan
12:47:51 [AndyS]
jenit: section on additonal UC ... if community gives input
12:48:01 [JeniT]
s/section/issue/
12:48:29 [AndyS]
jtandy: ... HL7 not in current except as "known, incomplete"
12:48:38 [danbri]
q?
12:48:42 [danbri]
ack estaphan
12:48:52 [danbri]
ack estephan
12:50:16 [AndyS]
jtandy: will put in UC current on list .. I have "a little list"
12:50:24 [danbri]
action: danbri assign more actions
12:50:24 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-21 - Assign more actions [on Dan Brickley - due 2014-06-11].
12:50:45 [danbri]
http://w3c.github.io/csvw/syntax/#bidirectionality-in-csv-files
12:50:45 [AndyS]
... UC review by contributors --- currently empty ... draw people's attention to that
12:50:59 [danbri]
action everyone read https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Use_Cases_Check
12:50:59 [trackbot]
Error finding 'everyone'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/track/users>.
12:51:12 [AndyS]
... issues in UCR ... take to list.
12:51:18 [danbri]
q?
12:51:37 [AndyS]
topic: Generating RDF from Web Tabular Data
12:51:57 [jtandy]
zakim, mute me
12:51:57 [Zakim]
jtandy should now be muted
12:52:00 [danbri]
Andys: I haven't had any time to spend on it lately
12:52:21 [danbri]
danbri: seemed to be some mild disagreements last week - can someone summarise?
12:52:29 [danbri]
andys: ivan's concerned about us taking on too much work
12:52:42 [danbri]
ivan: what is happening now is that we are exploring the whole approach of basing conversion on templates
12:52:57 [danbri]
… this expl means … i try to understand whats going on, i'm slow in understanding that, some details unclear to me
12:53:20 [danbri]
… this is where we are , some emails flying around between andy and me. Next step as far as I'm concerned (given time avail) is to write down a draft spec
12:53:49 [danbri]
… a bit on similar level to what I did a while back as 'mechanical approach'; then we have to make a decision about overall direction. Shouldn't be andy's and mine only.
12:54:12 [danbri]
… back to json, xml — both andy and I have been using Turtle examples. At least in my case, main reason is that i'm more comfortable with it.
12:54:24 [danbri]
… whole discussion/approach is pretty much generic. Andy do you agree?
12:54:37 [danbri]
… that same tmpl approach should work with json, with xml … without any significant change
12:55:01 [danbri]
… in this sense not just an rdf thing. sense/structure is not rdf specific. some details might be, but whole thing is generic.
12:55:21 [danbri]
AndyS: I can see it working for json. Just don't know well enough at xml level to understand one way or the other.
12:55:41 [danbri]
… Jeni - there were outstanding Qs to you from couple weeks ago. You mentioned requirements - I was asking for concrete requirements.
12:55:46 [danbri]
JeniT: on conditional processing?
12:56:02 [ivan]
q+
12:56:02 [danbri]
… will use dan's example to illustrate that
12:56:20 [danbri]
… Dan's suggestion to focus on some examples and target output with specific metadata files, draft templates, will be helpful in exploring this
12:56:36 [danbri]
AndyS: a bit confused by that, as there are examples already, e.g. jeremy's
12:56:59 [danbri]
JeniT: absolutely; just to hve this in a structured way in the directory structure, to help unlock progress
12:57:18 [danbri]
q?
12:57:40 [danbri]
ivan: back to procedural side, … dan/jeni will reach out to rest of group for the xml/json conversion
12:58:15 [danbri]
… assumption that andy/ivan could edit, though i didn't really volunteer, so let's not assume that. Perhaps Andy in same situation.
12:58:41 [danbri]
AndyS: yes, I have a time issue. If I don't see sufficient support for the approach i'm exploring, unlikely I can put more time in.
12:58:44 [danbri]
q?
12:58:45 [danbri]
ack ivan
12:59:39 [danbri]
dan: how close are the other specs, jeni?
12:59:44 [AndyS]
topic: publication status
12:59:52 [danbri]
jeni: model spec is close. metadata spec has a lot of issues but ok for FPWD
12:59:54 [AndyS]
tab data - nearly ready
13:00:17 [AndyS]
jenit: metadata - happy to publish with issue boxes
13:00:30 [danbri]
practicalities: ivan vacation 4 weeks from 14 july.
13:00:44 [danbri]
dan some july vacation too.
13:00:45 [AndyS]
... tabular data in good shape -- s/field/cell/g
13:01:05 [danbri]
action: dan make a concrete proposal for concrete test cases structure
13:01:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-22 - Make a concrete proposal for concrete test cases structure [on Dan Brickley - due 2014-06-11].
13:01:08 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
13:01:08 [AndyS]
ivan: UCR looks ready or v close already
13:01:09 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
13:01:19 [Zakim]
-PhilA_
13:01:20 [AndyS]
ADJOURNED
13:01:21 [Zakim]
-ivan
13:01:23 [Zakim]
-jtandy
13:01:24 [Zakim]
-estephan
13:01:24 [Zakim]
-DavideCeolin
13:01:25 [Zakim]
-danbri
13:01:28 [Zakim]
-JeniT
13:01:29 [Zakim]
-fonso
13:01:29 [Zakim]
DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has ended
13:01:30 [Zakim]
Attendees were danbri, jtandy, +1.509.554.aaaa, +1.617.324.aaaa, JeniT, PhilA_, DavideCeolin, ivan, estephan, fonso, [IPcaller]
13:01:40 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:01:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/04-csvw-minutes.html ivan
13:03:16 [danbri]
thanks for scribing AndyS!
13:58:10 [PhilA]
PhilA has left #csvw
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14:55:01 [ivan]
ivan has joined #csvw
15:05:23 [Zakim]
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15:06:19 [JeniT]
JeniT has joined #csvw
16:45:03 [ivan]
ivan has joined #csvw