11:47:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #csvw
11:47:17 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/04-csvw-irc
11:47:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
11:47:19 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #csvw
11:47:21 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be CSVW
11:47:21 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
11:47:22 <trackbot> Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference
11:47:22 <trackbot> Date: 04 June 2014
11:47:30 <ivan> Chair: Dan Brickley
11:47:33 <danbri> thanks, ivan!
11:47:57 <ivan> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-06-04
11:48:12 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: 2014-06-04 Meeting agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-06-04
11:52:12 <danbri1> danbri1 has joined #csvw
11:57:41 <Zakim> DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has now started
11:57:49 <Zakim> + +44.207.346.aaaa
11:57:54 <danbri> zakim, aaaa is danbri
11:57:54 <Zakim> +danbri; got it
11:58:08 <jtandy> jtandy has joined #csvw
11:58:12 <ivan> zakim, code?
11:58:12 <Zakim> the conference code is 2789 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
11:58:26 <Zakim> +ivan
11:59:23 <Zakim> +jtandy
11:59:36 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
11:59:44 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
11:59:44 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
11:59:45 <PhilA_> PhilA_ has joined #csvw
11:59:56 <danbri> zakim, who is on the call?
11:59:57 <Zakim> restarting bot to recover state
11:59:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see danbri, ivan, jtandy, AndyS
12:00:16 <JeniT> JeniT has joined #csvw
12:01:22 <danbri> he's near ralph, which is even better
12:02:09 <ivan> per ralph, one can still dial in
12:02:28 <ivan> I will have to dial back, my call got grabled, though
12:02:31 <estephan> estephan has joined #csvw
12:02:42 <jtandy> yes - i saw the report - I'm pictured twice!
12:03:27 <AndyS> zakim, are you here?
12:03:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
12:03:54 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be CSVW
12:03:55 <trackbot> Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference
12:03:55 <trackbot> Date: 04 June 2014
12:04:13 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
12:04:43 <ivan> present: phil, dan, jeni, jeremy, andy, eric
12:04:56 <ivan> present+ ivan
12:05:43 <danbri> Scribe: AndyS
12:05:45 <AndyS> scribenick: AndyS
12:05:50 <danbri> https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-06-04
12:05:55 <AndyS> scribe: Andy Seaborne
12:06:14 <AndyS> No formal meeting last week.
12:06:17 <danbri> week before last's meeting: http://www.w3.org/2014/05/21-csvw-minutes.html
12:06:48 <AndyS> topic: Progressing XML & JSON conversions
12:07:18 <AndyS> danbri: need people to champion these formats
12:07:31 <AndyS> jtandy: we have UC for each format
12:08:00 <AndyS> jenit: co-chairs intend to reach out to members of the WG
12:08:43 <DavideCeolin> DavideCeolin has joined #csvw
12:08:46 <AndyS> danbri: test cases - need structure in the repo for examples/test cases.
12:09:25 <AndyS> ... inputs directory for csv, and then folder per output possibility
12:09:36 <AndyS> ... can compare the different approaches.
12:09:59 <AndyS> ... go though UCs and get the CSVs then produce outputs
12:10:14 <ivan> q+
12:10:27 <AndyS> jtandy: makes sense ... UCs already have files for CSV inputs
12:10:44 <AndyS> danbri: target presentations given?
12:11:01 <AndyS> jtandy: somewhat but not systematic.
12:11:55 <AndyS> ... starting point, UC#21, TSV, some possible geojson output from that
12:12:18 <AndyS> danbri: allow different mappings with close position of different mappings
12:12:35 <JeniT> q+
12:12:39 <danbri> q?
12:12:42 <AndyS> estephen: (missed)
12:12:45 <danbri> zakim> ivan, jeni
12:12:48 <AndyS> q = ivan, jenit
12:12:53 <danbri> ack ivan
12:12:56 <danbri> q> jeni
12:12:56 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #csvw
12:13:01 <danbri> zakim!!
12:13:04 <JeniT> s/(missed)/UC#6 is an interesting one/
12:13:10 <ivan> zakim, this is csvw
12:13:10 <Zakim> ok, ivan; that matches DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM
12:13:29 <danbri> zakim, who is on the phone?
12:13:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see danbri, jtandy, +1.509.554.aaaa, [IPcaller], +1.617.324.aaaa, [IPcaller.a], ??P17
12:13:48 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
12:13:48 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
12:13:55 <estephan> zakim, I am +1.509.554
12:13:55 <Zakim> ok, estephan, I now associate you with +1.509.554.aaaa
12:13:57 <danbri> q?
12:14:02 <JeniT> q+
12:14:40 <AndyS> ivan: procedure -- if we use UC as test cases, we have be careful because once in /TR/ files are frozen
12:14:49 <AndyS> zakim, who am I?
12:14:49 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, AndyS.
12:15:00 <danbri> ack jenit
12:15:02 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
12:15:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see danbri, jtandy, +1.509.554.aaaa, PhilA_, +1.617.324.aaaa, JeniT, ??P17
12:15:10 <danbri> [slightly muffled audio]
12:15:24 <estephan> zakim, I am +1.509.554
12:15:24 <Zakim> ok, estephan, I now associate you with +1.509.554.aaaa
12:15:31 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:15:31 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:15:35 <AndyS> jenit: in the structure have different metadata for same CSV file.
12:15:36 <DavideCeolin> zakim, ??P17 is me
12:15:36 <Zakim> +DavideCeolin; got it
12:15:47 <ivan> zakim, I am +1.617
12:15:47 <Zakim> +ivan; got it
12:15:47 <AndyS> danbri: good point
12:15:57 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:15:57 <Zakim> jtandy was not muted, jtandy
12:16:22 <AndyS> zakim, ??P17 is me
12:16:22 <Zakim> I already had ??P17 as DavideCeolin, AndyS
12:16:26 <danbri> (maybe a raw_source, canonical_source)
12:16:36 <danbri> + multiple metadata + mapping files
12:16:38 <danbri> q?
12:16:40 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:16:40 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:16:43 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
12:16:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see danbri, jtandy, +1.509.554.aaaa, PhilA_, ivan, JeniT, DavideCeolin
12:16:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see DavideCeolin, estephan, JeniT, PhilA_, jtandy, danbri, RRSAgent, ivan, AndyS, gkellogg, fresco, trackbot
12:16:58 <DavideCeolin> ops sorry AndyS, I thought that was last assigned id
12:17:00 <AndyS> topic: metadata format
12:17:21 <JeniT> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-csv-wg/2014Jun/0012.html
12:17:32 <AndyS> jenit: conversation with Rufus
12:18:20 <AndyS> ... metadata specifying parsing options and whether CSV is 1-1 aligned to the "tabular format"
12:18:57 <AndyS> ... #1 - standard CSV files , frags work
12:19:03 <danbri> cf http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hausenblas-csv-fragment-02
12:19:21 <estephan> zakim, +1.509.554 is me
12:19:21 <Zakim> +estephan; got it
12:19:26 <AndyS> ... #2 - parsing options - e.g separator
12:19:58 <AndyS> q+
12:20:16 <danbri> losing audio
12:20:22 <danbri> buzzzing noise
12:20:22 <fonso> fonso has joined #csvw
12:20:24 <ivan> zakim, drop me
12:20:24 <Zakim> ivan is being disconnected
12:20:26 <Zakim> -ivan
12:20:29 <estephan> aliens landing?
12:21:12 <AndyS> .. #3 padding around the CSV data, maybe more than one table in one file
12:21:15 <AndyS> q-
12:21:18 <danbri> q+ to suggest metadata linking dataset packages could work; package A could be TSV with fluff; package B could be a downstream transform of A
12:21:21 <danbri> q?
12:21:28 <ivan> zakim, code?
12:21:28 <Zakim> the conference code is 2789 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
12:21:44 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:21:44 <Zakim> jtandy was not muted, jtandy
12:21:47 <jtandy> q+
12:22:07 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:22:07 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:22:18 <JeniT> andys: I think we’ll need to do a bit of #3
12:22:27 <JeniT> … especially to handle padding
12:22:33 <JeniT> … because tabular data is made to look nice in Excel
12:22:43 <Zakim> +Danny
12:22:52 <JeniT> … the question is how much attention to pay to that
12:22:53 <ivan> zakim, Danny is ivan
12:22:55 <Zakim> +ivan; got it
12:23:02 <danbri> q?
12:23:11 <PhilA_> ack danbri
12:23:11 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to suggest metadata linking dataset packages could work; package A could be TSV with fluff; package B could be a downstream transform of A
12:23:18 <PhilA_> q+
12:23:22 <AndyS> danbri: not great if input has appearance
12:23:43 <AndyS> ... but pointing into cells good
12:24:07 <Zakim> +??P25
12:24:09 <AndyS> ... maybe CSV original => CSV cleaned => tabular data
12:24:18 <fonso> Zakim, ??P25 is me
12:24:18 <Zakim> +fonso; got it
12:24:18 <danbri> q?
12:24:26 <ivan> q+
12:24:44 <AndyS> jenit: that is #1 -- metadata refs cleaned file
12:25:34 <danbri> andy: risk of losing row/col refs to shape of the original file
12:25:34 <AndyS> andys: reference issue on rows
12:25:42 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:25:42 <Zakim> jtandy should no longer be muted
12:25:43 <danbri> ack jtandy
12:26:07 <AndyS> jtandy: suggest #1, #2 - agree -- and fixed format forms
12:26:37 <AndyS> ... re: #3 -- location of data in the file. -- the frag relative to that datum.
12:26:50 <AndyS> jenit: yes - that's the idea in the message
12:27:10 <danbri> q?
12:27:20 <AndyS> ... rows, cols references do not match the original file.
12:27:46 <AndyS> jtandy: provide a tool to extract the data in the processing pipeline.
12:27:58 <PhilA_> q-
12:28:10 <danbri> [re tooling, I stumbled across http://tablib.readthedocs.org/en/latest/tutorial/#quickstart yesterday, quite promising]
12:28:11 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:28:11 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:28:13 <danbri> ack ivan
12:28:14 <AndyS> ... step one can be extract : pure #3 is potentially confusing
12:28:40 <AndyS> ivan: is metadata content is generated  by parsing or instructs the parser?
12:28:51 <AndyS> jenit: latter - it is input to parser
12:29:23 <AndyS> ivan: tab data model is non-norm on this -- not a charter item (in IETF)
12:29:37 <AndyS> ... need to come up with test cases etc.
12:30:46 <AndyS> jenit: is more work.  Think that #2 + explain how to use the hints.
12:30:48 <danbri> [there's some difference between defining a kind of software component ('parser'), versus giving metadata description of mappings from chars to tabular datasets]
12:31:09 <danbri> q?
12:31:32 <AndyS> q+ to ask that an issue is left in doc about this for community.
12:31:46 <danbri> JeniT also suggested we discuss 'separating 'schema' from 'notes'' under this item
12:32:09 <danbri> ack andys
12:32:09 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask that an issue is left in doc about this for community.
12:32:23 <danbri> andys: can we have an issue is left in doc about this
12:32:37 <jtandy> q+
12:32:44 <danbri> ivan: we can't avoid the procedural issue that IETF standardise CSV
12:32:57 <danbri> q+
12:33:07 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:33:07 <Zakim> jtandy was not muted, jtandy
12:33:07 <AndyS> q-
12:33:11 <danbri> ack jtandy
12:33:40 <AndyS> jtandy: multistep processing to get tabular data format.  Provide information tools/advice.
12:33:43 <danbri> q?
12:33:48 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:33:48 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:34:18 <danbri> jeni: there are other RFCs for other delimited formats
12:34:26 <AndyS> jenit: encoding and header are in RFC anyway ... other RFCs for other formats ... escape is boarderline.
12:34:35 <danbri> q?
12:34:42 <danbri> ack me
12:34:52 <AndyS> ... encourages people to create good files.
12:35:27 <danbri> ack me
12:35:29 <AndyS> danbri: IETF/W3C is not a worrying disconnect -- stuff to do
12:35:42 <AndyS> subtopic: notes for schemas
12:35:46 <danbri> vs schemas
12:35:57 <danbri> "separating 'schema' from 'notes'"
12:36:10 <AndyS> jenit: separate out the schema that can be reused across files
12:36:23 <jtandy> +1
12:36:26 <ivan> +1
12:36:27 <danbri> q?
12:36:29 <ivan> q+
12:36:45 <danbri> ack ivan
12:37:17 <AndyS> ivan: in current doc - bare JSON and JSON-LD examples - decide?
12:37:29 <AndyS> jenit: aiming for JSON-LD compatibility
12:37:29 <danbri> topic: Model for Tabular Data and Metadata on the Web (Jeni)
12:37:59 <danbri> "renaming 'fields' to 'cells' to avoid culture clash"
12:38:09 <AndyS> jenit:  renaming 'fields' to 'cells' to avoid culture clash -- "field" is a column
12:38:22 <ivan> +1
12:38:24 <AndyS> (what is the CSV RFC terminology?)
12:38:25 <danbri> +1
12:38:32 <jtandy> thankyou
12:38:55 <danbri>    record = field *(COMMA field)
12:38:58 <danbri> in http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4180
12:39:04 <AndyS> jenit: records and fields  in RFC
12:39:35 <danbri> "determine if we are happy that _all_ RTL tabular data is logically the same as LTR tabular data - just that it is rendered differently"
12:39:37 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:39:37 <Zakim> jtandy was not muted, jtandy
12:39:41 <JeniT> http://w3c.github.io/csvw/syntax/#bidirectionality-in-csv-files
12:39:45 <danbri> (does scribe bot have notion of a subtopic?)
12:40:12 <AndyS> q+ to ask if the intention to use field as column?
12:41:00 <danbri> q?
12:41:01 <JeniT> AndyS, no: we will keep ‘column’ as ‘column’
12:41:01 <AndyS> danbri: need to grab a copy.
12:41:07 <AndyS> ack me
12:41:07 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask if the intention to use field as column?
12:41:12 <jtandy> q+
12:42:11 <jtandy> q-
12:42:14 <AndyS> jtandy: data is serialized byte 0, byte 1 , ... and RTL is about display.
12:42:35 <AndyS> ivan: same every RTL location?
12:42:40 <danbri> q+ on RTL and separators
12:42:41 <danbri> q?
12:42:57 <AndyS> ... question to Yakov
12:43:15 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:43:15 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:43:17 <AndyS> jenit: highlighted in doc to be published.
12:43:33 <AndyS> ivan: remind me to follow up with W3C offices
12:43:34 <danbri> ack danbri
12:43:34 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to comment on RTL and separators
12:43:58 <danbri> ack danbri
12:44:13 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:44:13 <Zakim> jtandy was not muted, jtandy
12:44:32 <AndyS> topic: Use cases and requirements
12:44:33 <danbri> q?
12:44:41 <AndyS> jtandy: in good shape.
12:45:20 <AndyS> ... HL7 -- maybe too ambitious - complex encoding. Drop?
12:45:53 <AndyS> ... currently incomplete and no requirements so just leaving it as is is not good.
12:46:09 <AndyS> ... from James McKinney (sp?)
12:46:20 <AndyS> jenit: ping contributor?
12:46:48 <danbri> q+ to suggest an 'other topics' section if don't have one
12:47:05 <danbri> ack me
12:47:05 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to suggest an 'other topics' section if don't have one
12:47:06 <estephan> q+
12:47:41 <danbri> ack estaphan
12:47:51 <AndyS> jenit: section on additonal UC ... if community gives input
12:48:01 <JeniT> s/section/issue/
12:48:29 <AndyS> jtandy: ... HL7 not in current except as "known, incomplete"
12:48:38 <danbri> q?
12:48:42 <danbri> ack estaphan
12:48:52 <danbri> ack estephan
12:50:16 <AndyS> jtandy: will put in UC current on list .. I have "a little list"
12:50:24 <danbri> action: danbri assign more actions
12:50:24 <trackbot> Created ACTION-21 - Assign more actions [on Dan Brickley - due 2014-06-11].
12:50:45 <danbri> http://w3c.github.io/csvw/syntax/#bidirectionality-in-csv-files
12:50:45 <AndyS> ... UC review by contributors --- currently empty ... draw people's attention to that
12:50:59 <danbri> action everyone read https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Use_Cases_Check
12:50:59 <trackbot> Error finding 'everyone'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/track/users>.
12:51:12 <AndyS> ... issues in UCR ... take to list.
12:51:18 <danbri> q?
12:51:37 <AndyS> topic: Generating RDF from Web Tabular Data
12:51:57 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:51:57 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:52:00 <danbri> Andys: I haven't had any time to spend on it lately
12:52:21 <danbri> danbri: seemed to be some mild disagreements last week - can someone summarise?
12:52:29 <danbri> andys: ivan's concerned about us taking on too much work
12:52:42 <danbri> ivan: what is happening now is that we are exploring the whole approach of basing conversion on templates
12:52:57 <danbri> … this expl means … i try to understand whats going on, i'm slow in understanding that, some details unclear to me
12:53:20 <danbri> … this is where we are , some emails flying around between andy and me. Next step as far as I'm concerned (given time avail) is to write down a draft spec
12:53:49 <danbri> … a bit on similar level to what I did a while back as 'mechanical approach'; then we have to make a decision about overall direction. Shouldn't be andy's and mine only.
12:54:12 <danbri> … back to json, xml — both andy and I have been using Turtle examples. At least in my case, main reason is that i'm more comfortable with it.
12:54:24 <danbri> … whole discussion/approach is pretty much generic. Andy do you agree?
12:54:37 <danbri> … that same tmpl approach should work with json, with xml … without any significant change
12:55:01 <danbri> … in this sense not just an rdf thing. sense/structure is not rdf specific. some details might be, but whole thing is generic.
12:55:21 <danbri> AndyS: I can see it working for json. Just don't know well enough at xml level to understand one way or the other.
12:55:41 <danbri> … Jeni - there were outstanding Qs to you from couple weeks ago. You mentioned requirements - I was asking for concrete requirements.
12:55:46 <danbri> JeniT: on conditional processing?
12:56:02 <ivan> q+
12:56:02 <danbri> … will use dan's example to illustrate that
12:56:20 <danbri> … Dan's suggestion to focus on some examples and target output with specific metadata files, draft templates, will be helpful in exploring this
12:56:36 <danbri> AndyS: a bit confused by that, as there are examples already, e.g. jeremy's
12:56:59 <danbri> JeniT: absolutely; just to hve this in a structured way in the directory structure, to help unlock progress
12:57:18 <danbri> q?
12:57:40 <danbri> ivan: back to procedural side, … dan/jeni will reach out to rest of group for the xml/json conversion
12:58:15 <danbri> … assumption that andy/ivan could edit, though i didn't really volunteer, so let's not assume that. Perhaps Andy in same situation.
12:58:41 <danbri> AndyS: yes, I have a time issue. If I don't see sufficient support for the approach i'm exploring, unlikely I can put more time in.
12:58:44 <danbri> q?
12:58:45 <danbri> ack ivan
12:59:39 <danbri> dan: how close are the other specs, jeni?
12:59:44 <AndyS> topic: publication status
12:59:52 <danbri> jeni: model spec is close. metadata spec has a lot of issues but ok for FPWD
12:59:54 <AndyS> tab data - nearly ready
13:00:17 <AndyS> jenit: metadata - happy to publish with issue boxes
13:00:30 <danbri> practicalities: ivan vacation 4 weeks from 14 july.
13:00:44 <danbri> dan some july vacation too.
13:00:45 <AndyS> ... tabular data in good shape -- s/field/cell/g
13:01:05 <danbri> action: dan make a concrete proposal for concrete test cases structure
13:01:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-22 - Make a concrete proposal for concrete test cases structure [on Dan Brickley - due 2014-06-11].
13:01:08 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:01:08 <AndyS> ivan: UCR looks ready or v close already
13:01:09 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
13:01:19 <Zakim> -PhilA_
13:01:20 <AndyS> ADJOURNED
13:01:21 <Zakim> -ivan
13:01:23 <Zakim> -jtandy
13:01:24 <Zakim> -estephan
13:01:24 <Zakim> -DavideCeolin
13:01:25 <Zakim> -danbri
13:01:28 <Zakim> -JeniT
13:01:29 <Zakim> -fonso
13:01:29 <Zakim> DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has ended
13:01:30 <Zakim> Attendees were danbri, jtandy, +1.509.554.aaaa, +1.617.324.aaaa, JeniT, PhilA_, DavideCeolin, ivan, estephan, fonso, [IPcaller]
13:01:40 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:01:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/04-csvw-minutes.html ivan
13:03:16 <danbri> thanks for scribing AndyS!
13:58:10 <PhilA> PhilA has left #csvw
14:30:20 <danbri> danbri has joined #csvw
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