13:26:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
13:26:09 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/05/30-mobile-a11y-irc
13:26:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:26:13 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
13:26:13 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_MATF()10:00AM scheduled to start in 34 minutes
13:26:14 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
13:26:14 <trackbot> Date: 30 May 2014
13:26:41 <KimPatch>  chair: Kimberly_Patch
13:30:05 <KimPatch> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2014May/0015.html
13:30:32 <KimPatch> regrets: Detlev
13:33:38 <KimPatch> Agenda+ New Mobile WCAG Techniques & Best Practices survey
13:33:39 <KimPatch> Agenda+ Next Steps – next meeting will be Friday June 6
13:33:48 <KimPatch> agenda?
13:35:41 <KimPatch> Zakim, drop item 1
13:35:41 <Zakim> agendum 1, 1.	New Mobile WCAG Techniques & Best Practices - https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/New_WCAG_2.0_Techniques.  We will review the results of the survey:
13:35:45 <Zakim> ... https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/20140512_survey/results, dropped
13:35:58 <KimPatch> Zakim, drop item 2
13:35:59 <Zakim> agendum 2, 2.	Next Steps - next meeting will be Friday May 30th.  There will be no meeting on Friday May 23rd., dropped
13:36:04 <KimPatch> agenda?
13:36:39 <KimPatch> Zakim, drop item 3
13:36:39 <Zakim> agendum 3, New Mobile WCAG Techniques & Best Practices survey, dropped
13:36:56 <KimPatch> Zakim, drop item 4
13:36:56 <Zakim> agendum 4, Next Steps – next meeting will be Friday June 6, dropped
13:38:06 <KimPatch> Agenda+ New Mobile WCAG Techniques & Best Practices survey – continue to  review survey
13:38:07 <KimPatch> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/New_WCAG_2.0_Techniques
13:38:09 <KimPatch> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/20140512_survey/results
13:38:10 <KimPatch> Agenda+ Next Steps – next meeting will be Friday June 6
13:38:24 <KimPatch> agenda?
13:48:26 <AlanSmith> AlanSmith has joined #mobile-a11y
13:55:41 <wuwei> wuwei has joined #mobile-a11y
13:57:46 <Zakim> WAI_MATF()10:00AM has now started
13:57:53 <Zakim> +Alan_Smith
13:58:20 <kathleen> kathleen has joined #mobile-a11y
13:58:36 <Zakim> +Kim_Patch
13:59:34 <jon_avila> jon_avila has joined #mobile-a11y
13:59:47 <Zakim> +kathleen
13:59:53 <Zakim> +Jeanne
14:01:08 <Zakim> +EricP
14:01:31 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:01:38 <jon_avila> zakim, I am IPcaller
14:01:38 <Zakim> ok, jon_avila, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
14:01:44 <Jan_> Jan_ has joined #mobile-a11y
14:02:21 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
14:02:40 <Jan_> zakim, [IPcaller.a] is really Jan
14:02:40 <Zakim> +Jan; got it
14:03:28 <jon_avila> zakim, take up next
14:03:28 <Zakim> agendum 5. "New Mobile WCAG Techniques & Best Practices survey – continue to  review survey" taken up [from KimPatch]
14:03:45 <KimPatch> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/New_WCAG_2.0_Techniques
14:03:47 <KimPatch> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/20140512_survey/results
14:04:47 <jon_avila> kp: think we made it to number 11 on survey.
14:06:31 <jon_avila> kp: Position form fields labels above the field is first one.
14:07:43 <jon_avila> kp: comments are that it should be before.  May need exception for radio buttons or when a change is made to landscape.
14:08:26 <jon_avila> alan: comments on changing wording rather than above with respect to field.
14:08:34 <jon_avila> jan: suggests adjacent to.
14:08:48 <jon_avila> alan: left above may be easier for users.
14:08:56 <jon_avila> kp: vote for adjacent to
14:09:17 <jon_avila> kathleen: depends on the space you are working with on different devices
14:09:26 <jon_avila> q+
14:10:53 <jon_avila> ja: issue would also occur on web that is non-mobile.
14:11:11 <jon_avila> kathleen: don't need a new technique if there is already one.
14:12:13 <kathleen> http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/quickref/#qr-minimize-error-cues
14:12:36 <Zakim> -Jeanne
14:14:00 <kathleen> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20140311/G162
14:14:05 <jon_avila> ja: g162 should cover this.
14:14:48 <jon_avila> zakim, 11 position form fields labels above the field - already advisory for SC 3.3.2 and covered by G162.
14:14:48 <Zakim> I don't understand you, jon_avila
14:14:59 <jon_avila> ja: 11 position form fields labels above the field - already advisory for SC 3.3.2 and covered by G162.
14:15:16 <wuwei> wuwei has joined #mobile-a11y
14:15:24 <jon_avila> topic: 11 position form fields labels above the field - already advisory for SC 3.3.2 and covered by G162.
14:15:46 <jon_avila> topic 12: Links should be adapted to screen width
14:16:02 <Zakim> +Jeanne
14:16:53 <jon_avila> kp: comments from Detlev it should be technique because links may need to be longer to distinguish them from others.
14:19:40 <jon_avila> ja: what if the link wraps? Is that covered?
14:20:19 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #mobile-a11y
14:20:31 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
14:20:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/30-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jeanne
14:20:33 <jon_avila> kp: could see it being an issue -- but not sure if it is any different from current requirements of text not being width of 80 characters indicated by 1.4.8
14:20:53 <jeanne> rrsagent, make logs public
14:21:22 <jon_avila> kathleen: links may contain other items other than text.
14:21:31 <jon_avila> alan: Concern over wording.
14:23:45 <jon_avila> kp: seems like its covered under 1.4.8 as it includes reference to measuring on desktop and not app to mobile screens
14:24:16 <jon_avila> topic 12: Long link length covered in SC 1.4.8 - so keep this as best practice
14:24:34 <jon_avila> topic 13: design clickable objects to look clickable.
14:25:02 <jon_avila> kp: 2 votes for advisory, 2 sufficient, Jon and Kathleen for advisory
14:26:41 <Tim> Tim has joined #mobile-a11y
14:26:56 <jon_avila> ja: important issue - iOS has included an option to make buttons look buttons and not flat objects.
14:27:20 <jon_avila> kp: does UAAG have something that would apply?
14:27:41 <jon_avila> Jeanne: Not sure if UAAG has an guidelines
14:27:44 <jon_avila> zakim, who is talking?
14:27:54 <Zakim> jon_avila, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Jeanne (82%), Kim_Patch (40%)
14:29:14 <jon_avila> ja: may be more important on mobile because there is no hover and not always a way to reach it with the keyboard.
14:29:27 <kathleen> http://codecraftingblueprints.com/make-clickable-things-look-clickable/
14:29:47 <wuwei> wuwei has joined #mobile-a11y
14:30:30 <kathleen> http://jimmymacsupport.com/make-buttons-look-like-buttons-ios-7-1/
14:30:38 <jon_avila> kathleen: No hover on mobile
14:31:06 <jon_avila> kathleen: buttons get a box, currently selected tab has blue shading, links get underlined - in 7.1 turn button shapes on.
14:31:57 <jon_avila> kp: Important issue, there are solutions are other on different platforms.  So do we add this, or this sufficient as it stands?
14:32:26 <jon_avila> alan: wise to have something -- Apple has realized it wasn't sufficient to make it more acceptable for users.
14:32:57 <jon_avila> alan: what is the difference between sufficient and advisory.
14:33:23 <jon_avila> jeanne: best practice can be described but not tested.  ST can be tested.
14:33:56 <jon_avila> jeanne: make all focusable object meet the design standards of their platform -- something like that.
14:34:21 <jon_avila> ja: reference other standards and one that might change.
14:34:26 <jeanne> s/Jeanne: Not sure if UAAG has an guidelines/Jeanne: UAAG guidelines are specific for highlighting, but I'm not sure if "make it look clickable" can be tested
14:35:57 <jon_avila> ja: if you are creating something for multiple platforms then you can't guarantee that it would work correctly everywhere.
14:39:42 <jon_avila> alan: some things may look actionable by themselves such as numbers in a keyboard.  Perhaps more discussion is needed.
14:40:05 <jon_avila> kp: What do we want to do? something is needed, but at what level?
14:41:02 <jon_avila> jan: If you wrap something as a link -- that is telling the user that it's actioanble.  The author has done what they.  Could say don't say surpress something of being actionable
14:41:17 <jon_avila> jeanne: what would the steps of the test be?
14:41:37 <Zakim> +??P1
14:42:12 <jon_avila> kp: Tim Boland joined.
14:42:18 <KimPatch> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/New_WCAG_2.0_Techniques
14:42:20 <KimPatch> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/20140512_survey/results
14:43:10 <jon_avila> jeanne: hard to make a test for buttons - links would be easier.
14:43:37 <jon_avila> jan: if user overrides the button appears with CSS that would be suppression of it.
14:43:58 <jon_avila> jeanne: get push back from developers who say they can't modify the look of the button.
14:44:36 <jon_avila> jeanne: form sub group to work on it.
14:44:49 <jon_avila> action: Jeanne work on this topic
14:44:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-15 - Work on this topic [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-06-06].
14:44:57 <jon_avila> kathleen: interested in it
14:45:09 <jon_avila> Alan: interested as well
14:45:34 <jon_avila> topic 14: pages should be viewable and portrait and landscape.
14:45:35 <jeanne> action: Jeanne to work with Kathleen and Alan to design a testable solution to survey #13 - Make clickable objects appear clickable.
14:45:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-16 - Work with kathleen and alan to design a testable solution to survey #13 - make clickable objects appear clickable. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-06-06].
14:46:49 <jon_avila> Alan: ST - added clarification.  Functionality often changes when the screen is rotated.
14:46:58 <jeanne> trackbot, close action-15
14:46:58 <trackbot> Closed action-15.
14:47:55 <jon_avila> kathleen: responsive design on phone with menus that change -- functionality is there it is just presented differently.
14:48:04 <jon_avila> kp: do we need more for mobile?
14:48:50 <jon_avila> alan: something added without loss of functionality
14:48:50 <jeanne> q+ to say that this is important for people with fixed devices, like tablets on wheelchairs.
14:48:55 <jon_avila> q?
14:49:24 <jeanne> ack jean
14:49:24 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to say that this is important for people with fixed devices, like tablets on wheelchairs.
14:49:25 <jon_avila> kp: so we should make this an advisory?
14:49:57 <jon_avila> jeanne: important for people with fixed orientation such as when device is in wheelchair.
14:49:58 <jon_avila> q+
14:51:40 <jon_avila> jan: perhaps it has to do something intelligent in other modes.
14:52:14 <jon_avila> kathleen: game is non playable in certain modes such as Words between friends.
14:52:31 <jon_avila> jeanne: API is being worked on to assist developers with this issue.
14:52:41 <jon_avila> kp: what category?
14:52:47 <jon_avila> Jeanne: should be ST.
14:54:04 <jon_avila> Kathleen: agree ST
14:54:15 <jon_avila> ja: disagree - shouldn't be ST, advisory only
14:54:56 <jon_avila> kathleen: says fixed device.  Generally locked devices are always in landscape mode.
14:55:08 <jon_avila> kp: have to pick.
14:56:43 <jon_avila> ja: am concerned about hard requirement that may affect design of games, etc. and may get push back from people -- would like to see research on this.
14:57:07 <jon_avila> jan: Is there a success criteria for this?
14:58:22 <jon_avila> jan: would support option user interface has to operate in both orientation to the extent that the user can escape from the orientation and that it doesn't have to fully operate in both orientations.
14:58:29 <jon_avila> ja: +1 to jan
14:59:05 <jon_avila> jeanne: split into two levels, Jan's recommendation, and the high level one that requires functionality work in both.
14:59:12 <Jan_> JR: +1 to jeanne's idea
14:59:12 <AlanSmith> I will need to drop for an 11 meeting. Please communicate via email any meeting time/dates to discuss #13
14:59:31 <jon_avila> kp: out of time.  Any other questions?
14:59:41 <Zakim> -Jan
14:59:41 <Tim> +1
15:00:04 <jon_avila> Jeanne: updated survey date so it is still open.
15:00:25 <jon_avila> rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/30-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jon_avila
15:01:16 <jeanne> present+ Alan, jeanne, jon, kathleen, kim, tim, wuwei
15:01:26 <jon_avila> rrsagent, make minutes
15:01:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/30-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jon_avila
15:02:00 <Zakim> -Alan_Smith
15:02:10 <jon_avila> rrsagent, bye
15:02:10 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/05/30-mobile-a11y-actions.rdf :
15:02:10 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jeanne work on this topic [1]
15:02:10 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/05/30-mobile-a11y-irc#T14-44-49
15:02:10 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jeanne to work with Kathleen and Alan to design a testable solution to survey #13 - Make clickable objects appear clickable. [2]
15:02:10 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/05/30-mobile-a11y-irc#T14-45-35
15:02:14 <Zakim> -wuwei
15:02:16 <Zakim> -??P1