11:13:19 RRSAgent has joined #csvw 11:13:19 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/05/14-csvw-irc 11:13:21 RRSAgent, make logs public 11:13:21 Zakim has joined #csvw 11:13:23 Zakim, this will be CSVW 11:13:23 ok, trackbot; I see DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM scheduled to start in 47 minutes 11:13:24 Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference 11:13:24 Date: 14 May 2014 11:13:34 Chair: Jeni Tennison 11:14:01 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-05-14 11:14:15 Regrets: Eric Stephan 11:42:53 danbri has joined #csvw 11:56:26 JeniT has joined #csvw 12:01:09 phila has joined #csvw 12:01:41 zakim, who is your daddy? 12:01:42 Ralph is taking good care of me but you all are my family, ivan 12:02:31 DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has now started 12:02:38 +[IPcaller] 12:02:47 jtandy has joined #csvw 12:02:47 zakim, dial ivan-voip 12:02:48 ok, ivan; the call is being made 12:02:49 +Ivan 12:02:54 zakim, ipcaller is me 12:02:54 +phila; got it 12:02:58 +[IPcaller] 12:03:05 jumbrich has joined #csvw 12:03:40 + +44.207.800.aaaa 12:03:53 DavideCeolin has joined #csvw 12:04:01 zakim, aaaa is me 12:04:01 +jtandy; got it 12:04:10 +[IPcaller] 12:04:12 zakim, IPCaller is me 12:04:12 +AndyS; got it 12:04:24 zakim, who is here? 12:04:24 On the phone I see phila, Ivan, JeniT, jtandy, AndyS 12:04:26 On IRC I see DavideCeolin, jumbrich, jtandy, phila, JeniT, danbri, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, AndyS, gkellogg, trackbot 12:04:54 +??P16 12:04:59 zakim, ??P16 is me 12:04:59 +DavideCeolin; got it 12:05:18 RRSAgent, make logs public 12:05:20 Zakim, this will be CSVW 12:05:20 ok, trackbot, I see DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM already started 12:05:21 Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference 12:05:21 Date: 14 May 2014 12:05:28 Chair: Jeni Tennison 12:05:37 Regrets: Dan, Eric 12:06:17 zakim, mute me 12:06:17 jtandy should now be muted 12:06:20 scribenick: jtandy 12:06:49 topic: approve last weeks meeting record 12:07:09 RESOLUTION: accept previous meeting record at http://www.w3.org/2014/05/07-csvw-minutes.html 12:07:43 +??P17 12:07:51 JeniT: aiming to publish another round of specs; please can the editors focus on what they need to do to get published 12:07:52 zakim, ??P17 is me 12:07:52 +jumbrich; got it 12:08:25 topic: ucr document update 12:08:31 topic: use case and reqs 12:08:36 zakim, umute me 12:08:36 I don't understand 'umute me', jtandy 12:08:41 zakim, unmute me 12:08:41 jtandy should no longer be muted 12:09:07 ok, i use telephone on mac os , and every time the call gets cancelled after 15 minutes, anyway, i just redial in again 12:09:10 jtandy: we’ve added three new use cases 12:09:23 scribenick: JeniT 12:09:24 … one on RTL following discussion last week 12:09:45 jtandy: we need to arbitrarily say that the column with the identifier in could be anywhere 12:09:50 ivan: eh? 12:10:04 jtandy: normally, in CSV, the first column is the one that holds the identifier 12:10:09 … each row describes a thing 12:10:15 … the first column contains the identifier for the thing 12:10:27 … in RTL the identifier might be the other 12:10:46 and it may be composite ... several columns 12:10:47 … end, so identifiers might come from any column 12:11:12 … the other useful thing is that those with vertical writing still use columns in the same way 12:11:22 … the use case needs to be updated to say that 12:11:31 ivan: the complication is that there are languages where that isn’t a choice 12:11:46 jtandy: the important thing is that we have something in that recognises non-European ways of doing things 12:11:52 … we have the HL7 use case 12:12:02 … though it’s not a use case yet because it doesn’t declare any requirements 12:12:10 … it just says that the health community has a format 12:12:20 … it clearly provides examples of microsyntax for example 12:12:24 … but is that a use case 12:12:24 q+ 12:12:41 … there’s another format Yakov identified 12:12:56 … we could have CSV-type formats and match them against use cases 12:13:04 q- ivan 12:13:12 ivan: does the micro-syntax requirement come up in other places? 12:13:15 jtandy: yes 12:13:24 ivan: HL7 is obviously very important 12:13:28 q+ 12:13:34 … referring to it is good 12:13:47 ack JeniT 12:14:20 q+ 12:14:30 JeniT: what about saying that a HL7 user wants to use generic CSV tools to validate it 12:14:38 jtandy: possibly, we need specific examples 12:14:54 ivan: we have someone on our team who is part of the Healthcare & Life Sciences interest group 12:15:03 … he’s heavily involved in HL7, so maybe we can ask him 12:15:10 … to provide a feasible story around it 12:15:19 -> http://www.hl7.org/ HL7 Web site 12:15:23 jtandy: that would be great 12:15:52 ivan: I will contact him and introduce you 12:16:34 jtandy: use case #21 is another format-oriented use case 12:16:41 … it still needs to be user/action oriented 12:16:50 … on Darwin core, biodiversity group 12:17:09 … we’ve picked out the key aspects and we could create a story around it 12:17:23 … we’ll follow that up 12:17:34 … overall, there are some issues still to bottom out 12:17:45 q+ to talk about https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Use_Cases#Making_Sense_of_Other_People.27s_Data 12:18:05 ack ivan 12:18:09 ack phila 12:18:09 phila, you wanted to talk about https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Use_Cases#Making_Sense_of_Other_People.27s_Data 12:18:38 phila: I’ve put a use case on the wiki at https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Use_Cases#Making_Sense_of_Other_People.27s_Data 12:18:48 … I hope that it can be included; it has real data 12:18:56 … and two new requirements 12:19:06 … one is third-party metadata (I describe someone else’s data) 12:19:14 … I’m happy to do more on it if that’s useful 12:19:55 … I’m also following up for verification 12:20:09 q+ 12:21:23 JeniT: I have a use case from ONS in which there are rows that would normally be columns 12:22:09 ivan: still no use case on XML conversion 12:22:45 phila: shall we ask Liam or Corine to come up with one? 12:22:52 ivan: I will do introductions 12:22:58 s/Corine/Carine 12:23:02 -jumbrich 12:23:25 +??P17 12:23:27 … in some way that’s more important, because if we’re driven by use cases then without one then we have no justification for an XML conversion 12:23:34 zakim, ?P17 is me 12:23:34 sorry, jumbrich, I do not recognize a party named '?P17' 12:23:47 zakim, ??P17 is me 12:23:47 +jumbrich; got it 12:24:20 jtandy: I agree, we need such a use case in which it has to be converted to XML to enable their toolchain to operate on it 12:24:32 ivan: I think we already have made decisions on which requirements are accepted, deferred etc 12:24:36 q+ 12:24:53 … but this isn’t reflected in the document 12:25:17 ack DavideCeolin 12:25:25 ack ivan 12:25:34 DavideCeolin: I’ve started trying to reorganise them 12:25:57 … I’ve put the deferred requirements in a specific section 12:26:10 … most of the requirements were accepted aside from those that were incorporated into others, as I understand it 12:27:30 JeniT: I’d like to make a decision on the classification next week 12:27:39 DavideCeolin: I will send out an email to that effect 12:27:54 jtandy: the requirements are in some places skeletal, and we need to flesh them out 12:28:06 … I’d like to put discussion from the list into the document 12:28:32 scribenick: jtandy 12:29:01 Topic: RDF generation 12:29:08 topic: csv2rdf 12:29:21 AndyS: talks about the text that Ivan has provided 12:30:04 ... about the conversion process - doesn't fit that well into the metadata document 12:30:17 ... would be better to fit into one document about conversions 12:30:28 ivan: best place would be the syntax doc 12:30:40 JeniT: or all three places :-) 12:31:01 ... as long as it is somewhere this will be ok 12:31:13 ... the location will "flush out" during review 12:31:23 q+ 12:31:31 ... not clear if we need one over arching doc for all conversions 12:32:07 ivan: commented on the text copied in by AndyS ... 12:32:36 ... in Ivan's original text he listed specific terms, but these are absent from the final text 12:32:47 http://w3c.github.io/csvw/metadata/#converting-tables 12:32:54 ... please can we raise this as a specific issue in the text 12:33:24 JeniT: "there might be some properties that need to be used in a consistent way to help the conversion" 12:33:47 ... and which properties to use to annotate a CSV 12:33:50 http://w3c.github.io/csvw/metadata/#creating-annotated-tables 12:34:22 -JeniT 12:34:24 ... thinking that section 2.1 of the metadata document is where I would talk about the association of metadata properties to rows/columns 12:34:45 [pause] 12:34:49 +[IPcaller] 12:35:33 JeniT: some stuff about creating the annotated table model, and some other stuff about the metadata for conversion 12:35:43 ivan: this is a secondary issue 12:35:55 JeniT: there's still lots of work to be done on the metadata docu 12:36:37 JeniT: asks AndyS if it would be useful to have a single templating mechanism for all conversions 12:36:54 AndyS: there would be different templates for each format 12:37:42 ... the template provides a mechanism to map CSV to whatever format you need 12:38:05 ... so each transformation (to a different format) would have a different template 12:38:34 JeniT: so if we had a requirement to convert to xml, would the template be XML or the "standard template format" 12:38:43 -jumbrich 12:39:00 AndyS: probably ... we're trying to avoid needing to have a lot of tools to do the transformations 12:39:12 ... there's no obligation to have complex tools 12:39:17 +??P17 12:39:26 zakim, ??P17 is me 12:39:26 +jumbrich; got it 12:39:48 ... the conversion can be done using lightweight text-based tools [I think that's what AndyS said] 12:40:12 http://golang.org/pkg/text/template/ 12:40:22 JeniT: is there an existing text-template format (she Googles for knowlege!) 12:40:39 ... can we propose a standard template form? 12:40:51 AndyS: suggesting that we start from URI Template 12:41:21 ivan: the "go-language" [?] you specify seems like to much 12:41:42 ... it's got flow (if/then/else) in it 12:41:59 ... let's keep it simple 12:42:27 AndyS: let's have the process "loop" driven by iterating through the rows ... 12:42:50 ivan: we should work out one conversion (e.g. RDF because we've already started) 12:42:57 ... lets do JSON in parallel 12:43:35 AndyS: there might be slightly different rules (styles) of templating for converting to RDF or JSON 12:43:41 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6570 12:44:17 phila: rfc talks about the different rules about what you can do in each part of the uri 12:44:56 AndyS: this is about the level of complexity as shell programming for substituting things based on the URI template 12:45:02 danbri has joined #csvw 12:45:13 JeniT: please can we expose this on the email list? 12:45:29 AndyS: have done so already 12:45:46 JeniT: ah - but now I'm talking about "templating for all formats" 12:45:48 q+ 12:45:50 AndyS: ok . 12:45:56 ivan: 12:46:10 ivan: only comment on csv2rdf doc 12:46:37 ... restructure the RDF doc to be inline with the metadata doc - to help the general principles stand out 12:46:46 AndyS: what sort of restructuing are you thinking about 12:47:17 ivan: referring to the metadata entries specifically (as listed in the metadata doc) - to make the bridge between the two docs 12:47:46 AndyS: if we put the agenda out the day before the weekly call, this would help Gregg engage 12:48:07 JeniT: noted ... but the agenda is the same each week 12:48:35 ... and takes an action to encourage people to propose things for the agenda 12:49:04 phila: agendas need to be out 24-hours before in order for formal resolutions to be passed 12:49:32 JeniT: ok - will work with danbri to publish agenda sooner & give people opportunities to add to the agenda 12:49:55 Eric S is on Gregg's time zone too - horrible for this slot :-( 12:50:10 JeniT: could find another time for the teleconf (to help US west-coast participation) 12:50:31 AndyS: there's always the tuesday slot - but we don't want duplication 12:50:51 topic: model document 12:51:06 http://w3c.github.io/csvw/syntax/#bidirectionality-in-csv-files 12:51:12 JeniT: as agreed last week, the "embedded metadata" is now removed 12:51:28 ... have been busy this morning 12:51:54 http://w3c.github.io/csvw/csv2rdf/#graph-template has a template example and refs RFC 6570 12:52:21 ... section 4.4.2 gives the specific information about the model 12:52:52 ... but there's an issue about whether we need a different media type for the different behaviours 12:53:13 ... we need to resolve this issue 12:54:25 -jumbrich 12:54:33 ivan: at the moment I disagree with specification in the model document; based around RTL behaviour 12:54:37 +??P17 12:54:45 zakim, ??P17 is me 12:54:45 +jumbrich; got it 12:55:05 JeniT: see issue 13 12:55:19 ivan: ok - last comment not relevant ... will re-read 12:55:24 http://w3c.github.io/csvw/metadata/#bidirectional-tables 12:56:40 JeniT: will add some examples in here 12:56:57 zakim, unmute me 12:56:57 jtandy should no longer be muted 12:57:00 q+ 12:57:20 JeniT: the RTL use case only has images 12:57:36 ivan: has the actual files - and will mail this around 12:57:52 JeniT: would be useful to have real examples 12:57:58 q- 12:58:21 ivan: need to confirm with yakov about content of this file - because we don't know 12:58:31 ack ivan 12:59:08 JeniT: anything else to raise? 12:59:12 JeniT: AOB? 12:59:19 topic: AOB 12:59:37 ivan: when do think (realisitically) we can publish again? 12:59:43 JeniT: 3-weeks 13:00:41 ivan: am in US in 2-weeks time, and w/c 2-June in Boston (should have time this week) other wise the 12th and 17th June could work 13:01:11 http://csvconf.com/ 13:01:15 ... note the "information to editors" provided last time - if you do this it would help 13:01:24 JeniT: Notes "CSV Conf" 13:01:32 phila: should be able to go 13:01:41 JeniT: has submitted a paper 13:01:58 ivan: has everyone registered for TPAC 13:02:16 JeniT: (& phila) didnt know this was open yet 13:02:19 jumbrich has left #csvw 13:02:21 -JeniT 13:02:23 -Ivan 13:02:23 -phila 13:02:23 JeniT: CLOSE! 13:02:24 -DavideCeolin 13:02:24 -AndyS 13:02:25 -jumbrich 13:02:30 -jtandy 13:02:34 DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has ended 13:02:34 Attendees were Ivan, phila, JeniT, +44.207.800.aaaa, jtandy, AndyS, DavideCeolin, jumbrich 13:15:14 danbri has joined #csvw 13:17:15 danbri1 has joined #csvw 13:20:07 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:20:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/14-csvw-minutes.html ivan 13:20:19 trackbot, end telcon 13:20:19 Zakim, list attendees 13:20:19 sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is 13:20:27 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 13:20:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/14-csvw-minutes.html trackbot 13:20:28 RRSAgent, bye 13:20:28 I see no action items