14:48:20 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
14:48:20 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/05/13-wai-wcag-irc
14:48:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:48:22 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #wai-wcag
14:48:24 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
14:48:24 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
14:48:25 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
14:48:25 <trackbot> Date: 13 May 2014
14:48:27 <AWK> Chair: AWK
14:49:16 <AWK> Regrets+ Kathy
14:49:22 <AWK> Zakim, Agenda?
14:49:22 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
14:49:50 <AWK> Agenda+ Review of https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Comments_Needing_Responses  (4 new)
14:50:11 <AWK> Agenda+ Discussion on http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_a_script_load_toggle_for_feature_detection_libraries_to_provide_a_conforming_alternate_version - Discussion on approach
14:50:33 <AWK> Agenda+ Misc Survey 6th May 2014 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140506/results  (only LC-2854)
14:50:51 <AWK> Agenda+ Survey. Techniques and Institutional Memory. https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/13May2014/
14:51:04 <AWK> Agenda+ Update on Cognitive Accessibility Task Force from Lisa Seeman.
14:51:12 <AWK> Agenda+ Discussion on comment processing - improving how we deal with questions to the working group, from the working group.
14:55:02 <David> David has joined #wai-wcag
14:55:37 <AWK> Zakim, agenda?
14:55:37 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
14:55:38 <Zakim> 1. Review of https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Comments_Needing_Responses  (4 new) [from AWK]
14:55:38 <Zakim> 2. Discussion on http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_a_script_load_toggle_for_feature_detection_libraries_to_provide_a_conforming_alternate_version - Discussion on approach [from
14:55:38 <Zakim> ... AWK]
14:55:38 <Zakim> 3. Misc Survey 6th May 2014 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140506/results  (only LC-2854) [from AWK]
14:55:40 <Zakim> 4. Survey. Techniques and Institutional Memory. https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/13May2014/ [from AWK]
14:55:40 <Zakim> 5. Update on Cognitive Accessibility Task Force from Lisa Seeman. [from AWK]
14:55:40 <Zakim> 6. Discussion on comment processing - improving how we deal with questions to the working group, from the working group. [from AWK]
14:56:36 <AWK> Zakim, agenda order is  5, 1, 6, 2, 3, 4
14:56:36 <Zakim> ok, AWK
14:56:38 <AWK> Zakim, agenda?
14:56:39 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
14:56:39 <Zakim> 5. Update on Cognitive Accessibility Task Force from Lisa Seeman. [from AWK]
14:56:39 <Zakim> 1. Review of https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Comments_Needing_Responses  (4 new) [from AWK]
14:56:40 <Zakim> 6. Discussion on comment processing - improving how we deal with questions to the working group, from the working group. [from AWK]
14:56:40 <Zakim> 2. Discussion on http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_a_script_load_toggle_for_feature_detection_libraries_to_provide_a_conforming_alternate_version - Discussion on approach [from
14:56:40 <Zakim> ... AWK]
14:56:40 <Zakim> 3. Misc Survey 6th May 2014 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140506/results  (only LC-2854) [from AWK]
14:56:40 <Zakim> 4. Survey. Techniques and Institutional Memory. https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/13May2014/ [from AWK]
14:57:26 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has now started
14:57:32 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
14:57:38 <Zakim> +AWK
14:58:19 <Wilco> Wilco has joined #wai-wcag
14:58:32 <Lisa_Seeman> Lisa_Seeman has joined #wai-wcag
14:58:38 <kathleen> kathleen has joined #wai-wcag
14:59:06 <Zakim> +??P18
14:59:25 <Zakim> +Bruce_Bailey
14:59:49 <bbailey> zakim, i am bruce_
14:59:49 <Zakim> ok, bbailey, I now associate you with Bruce_Bailey
15:00:12 <Zakim> + +31.30.239.aaaa
15:00:21 <Wilco> zakim, i am +31
15:00:21 <Zakim> +Wilco; got it
15:00:25 <Zakim> +kathleen
15:00:41 <Zakim> + +1.571.389.aabb
15:00:44 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #wai-wcag
15:00:51 <jon_avila> zakim, I am aabb
15:00:51 <Zakim> +jon_avila; got it
15:01:05 <AWK> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see David_MacDonald, AWK, ??P18, Bruce_Bailey, Wilco, kathleen, jon_avila
15:01:48 <AWK> Zakim, P18 is Lisa Seeman
15:01:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'P18 is Lisa Seeman', AWK
15:01:55 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:01:58 <AWK> Zakim,18 is Lisa Seeman
15:01:58 <Zakim> I don't understand '18 is Lisa Seeman', AWK
15:02:08 <AWK> Zakim, ??P18 is Lisa Seeman
15:02:09 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P18 is Lisa Seeman', AWK
15:02:11 <jon_avila> zakim, p18 is lisa_seeman
15:02:12 <Zakim> sorry, jon_avila, I do not recognize a party named 'p18'
15:02:16 <Loretta> zakim, IPcaller is Loretta
15:02:16 <Zakim> +Loretta; got it
15:03:01 <jon_avila> zakim, P18 is lisa_seeman
15:03:02 <Zakim> sorry, jon_avila, I do not recognize a party named 'P18'
15:03:07 <Lisa_Seeman>  zakim, P18 is me
15:03:07 <Zakim> sorry, Lisa_Seeman, I do not recognize a party named 'P18'
15:03:22 <Lisa_Seeman>  zakim, ??P18 is me
15:03:23 <David> zakim, ??p18 is lisa_seeman
15:03:23 <AWK> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:25 <Zakim> +Lisa_Seeman; got it
15:03:26 <Zakim> I already had ??P18 as Lisa_Seeman, David
15:03:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see David_MacDonald, AWK, Lisa_Seeman, Bruce_Bailey, Wilco, kathleen, jon_avila, Loretta
15:03:37 <Loretta> brb
15:04:10 <AWK> Scribe list: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List
15:04:13 <Zakim> +??P7
15:04:28 <AWK> Scribe: Bruce
15:05:05 <AWK> Zakim, take up item 1
15:05:05 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Review of https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Comments_Needing_Responses  (4 new)" taken up [from AWK]
15:05:20 <AWK> Zakim, take up 1st item?
15:05:20 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, AWK.
15:05:32 <AWK> Zakim, take up item 5
15:05:32 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Update on Cognitive Accessibility Task Force from Lisa Seeman." taken up [from AWK]
15:05:39 <AWK> Zakim, take up item 5
15:05:39 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Update on Cognitive Accessibility Task Force from Lisa Seeman." taken up [from AWK]
15:06:16 <bbailey> Lisa address group for update.
15:06:17 <Joshue> Joshue has joined #wai-wcag
15:06:27 <bbailey> Mix of folks from CSUN face-to-face
15:06:32 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:06:39 <Joshue> zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue
15:06:39 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
15:06:45 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:06:45 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:06:56 <bbailey> Something could go to ARIA, to CAPTCH paper, WCAG WG
15:07:02 <Joshue> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:07:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/13-wai-wcag-minutes.html Joshue
15:07:27 <bbailey> Mandated for work on gap analysis and word map and technques
15:07:55 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2014AprJun/0089.html
15:08:02 <bbailey> Gap analysis first and important focus since eight different disability groups have been identified.
15:08:24 <bbailey> Not just AT compatibility, but feature needs
15:08:45 <bbailey> IPII has some similar work
15:08:54 <Lisa_Seeman> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/wiki/Main_Page
15:09:24 <bbailey> Work is in public, actively trying to avoid copy right issues
15:09:27 <Lisa_Seeman> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/wiki/Gap_Analysis
15:09:50 <bbailey> As with other wiki, work in progress, not authoritative necessarily
15:10:11 <Lisa_Seeman> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/wiki/Section_3
15:10:21 <Joshue> s/IPII/GPII
15:10:25 <Lisa_Seeman> good practices and avoid bad practices
15:10:39 <Lisa_Seeman> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/wiki/Good_and_bad_practices
15:10:44 <bbailey> Staffing working to collect ideas that can help, good practices and avoid bad practices
15:11:42 <bbailey> includes inclusive design practices, can be outside WCAG techniques per se
15:12:00 <Joshue> +q to say that the more we can identify commonalities the better
15:12:21 <bbailey> cognitive load is a good example of common issue that people complain about
15:12:52 <bbailey> helps address different needs and different ATs
15:13:22 <bbailey> TextHelp and Arabic language support are also current examples
15:13:33 <David> q+ to ask for a short list of issues that people with cognitive disabilities complain about
15:13:52 <bbailey> CAPTCHA coming up as an issue again, plan to make suggestions to PF on that
15:14:14 <Joshue> -q
15:14:27 <bbailey> Symbol space is also an area that needs more investigation, as symbols may be better for some people than languages
15:14:43 <bbailey> Some symbol sets have copyright issues
15:15:18 <bbailey> Copyrighted symbol set may be very much like native language for some people, but can't be shared across tools.
15:15:24 <AWK> ack d
15:15:24 <Zakim> David, you wanted to ask for a short list of issues that people with cognitive disabilities complain about
15:16:14 <bbailey> Lisa:  very early for generatizations
15:16:22 <Joshue> +q
15:16:40 <bbailey> short-term dependance on working memory issue for many different types of cognitive issues
15:16:57 <bbailey> Want to make interface to require as little learning as possible.
15:17:37 <jon_avila> Flat design is bad for people with low vision too IMO.
15:17:38 <bbailey> The “flat design” paradigm currently popular actually increases cognitive load.
15:17:50 <AWK> ack j
15:17:50 <Joshue> ack me
15:18:12 <bbailey> It is better to have borders distinction between buttons for example.
15:18:28 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:18:28 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:18:43 <bbailey> Joshue thanks for feedback, and we are continuously looking for more overlap and suggestions.
15:19:08 <bbailey> AWK and Lisa invite participation with her task force.
15:19:45 <bbailey> WCAG members are already vetted, so volunteers needed!
15:20:12 <bbailey> Time-out issues also something that comes up frequently as barrier, easy to lose place and orientation.
15:20:29 <bbailey> Timeout likely to require re-checking.
15:20:36 <AWK> Zakim, close this item
15:20:36 <Zakim> agendum 5 closed
15:20:37 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:20:37 <Zakim> 1. Review of https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Comments_Needing_Responses  (4 new) [from AWK]
15:20:46 <bbailey> (This relates back to David's earlier question.)
15:21:25 <bbailey> Reminder to check page, if your name is there, this is reminder.
15:21:44 <bbailey> Also need to add new items.
15:21:57 <bbailey> Also need volunteers to add your name.
15:22:19 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
15:22:22 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #wai-wcag
15:22:35 <AWK> Zakim, close this item
15:22:35 <Zakim> I do not know what agendum had been taken up, AWK
15:22:35 <bbailey> Particularly, 29.12, 2.8.71
15:22:43 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
15:22:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/13-wai-wcag-minutes.html jamesn
15:22:49 <MichaelC> ack me
15:22:57 <MichaelC> zakim, next item
15:22:57 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Review of https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Comments_Needing_Responses  (4 new)" taken up [from AWK]
15:23:03 <AWK> Zakim, next item
15:23:03 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, AWK
15:23:21 <bbailey> s/29.12/2912/
15:23:32 <bbailey> s/2.8.71/2871/
15:23:34 <AWK> Zakim, close this item
15:23:34 <Zakim> agendum 1 closed
15:23:35 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:23:35 <Zakim> 6. Discussion on comment processing - improving how we deal with questions to the working group, from the working group. [from AWK]
15:23:41 <AWK> Zakim, next item
15:23:41 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Discussion on comment processing - improving how we deal with questions to the working group, from the working group." taken up [from AWK]
15:24:17 <Zakim> -Lisa_Seeman
15:25:03 <bbailey> Comment from working group tend to be bigger and need more work
15:25:11 <AWK> Suggesting new process for comments from WG members
15:25:12 <AWK> WG-raised issues should be filed in issue tracker http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/issues/
15:25:24 <AWK> if raised on mailing list, migrate to tracker
15:25:35 <AWK> same for WG public comments, document they get moved to tracker instead of treated as public comment
15:25:42 <bbailey> s/Comment from working/Main issues is that comments from working/
15:26:06 <AWK> which resolves the public comment - by adding to tracker
15:26:19 <AWK> standing agenda item to walk through tracker issues and discuss
15:26:38 <AWK> people can put comments in issue or by email before WG discussion so dont need WBS
15:27:58 <bbailey> Working group suggestions tend to be deeper and more complex
15:28:26 <bbailey> Question to working group:  How does this sound?
15:28:33 <David> q+
15:28:37 <AWK> ack d
15:29:16 <bbailey> Question is if we should dialog less on list serve?
15:29:18 <MichaelC> ack me
15:29:39 <bbailey> David is concerned that issues might no look like they are picked up.
15:30:04 <bbailey> s/that issues might/that issues from public might/
15:30:27 <bbailey> David asks advantages for our tracker v git hub
15:30:45 <bbailey> AWK:  we are figuring this out
15:31:08 <bbailey> WG has more familiarity with issue tracker than git hub
15:31:30 <bbailey> Michael outline process of tracker
15:32:09 <bbailey> Current issue is that formality of tracker works better for discreet issues
15:32:49 <bbailey> Concern with git hub is that it is not W3C controlled service
15:32:57 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
15:32:57 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:33:11 <bbailey> Would be alarming to loose git hub discussions
15:33:46 <bbailey> AWK:  using tracker may seem a little redundant, but we know threads are preserved
15:34:29 <Joshue> +q
15:34:30 <Joshue> ack me
15:34:47 <bbailey> Joshue, any objections?
15:34:59 <bbailey> We are trying to reduce overhead, make things more efficient.
15:35:10 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:35:10 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:35:13 <MichaelC> My thoughts: we need a tracker for issues raised by WG members, so they don´t get lost. Suspect people use the public comments process for that, but that conflates issues and imposes extra formality that we don´t need.
15:35:30 <MichaelC> Using our tracker helps with assurance, so WG members don´t need to use the public comment process.
15:35:46 <MichaelC> Use internal tracker instead of GitHub issue management because we need a paper trail for posterity
15:35:53 <MichaelC> If GitHub goes down, we lose that
15:35:59 <bbailey> RESOLUTION:  Adopt proposal
15:36:41 <AWK> Zakim, close item
15:36:41 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', AWK
15:36:50 <AWK> Zakim, next item
15:36:50 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Discussion on http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_a_script_load_toggle_for_feature_detection_libraries_to_provide_a_conforming_alternate_version - Discussion on
15:36:53 <Zakim> ... approach" taken up [from AWK]
15:37:09 <bbailey> s/Adopt proposal/Adopt process as described for handling working group comments/
15:38:59 <bbailey> Author of technique, Allister asking if he is on right tracking, asking for feedback
15:39:35 <Joshue> +q
15:40:00 <Loretta> q+
15:40:09 <bbailey> Trying to get back to DOM plus text, but don’t want accessible version to look like it is dumbed down
15:40:12 <AWK> ack j
15:40:14 <Joshue> ack me
15:40:37 <bbailey> s/is on right tracking/is on right track/
15:41:12 <Joshue> ack lore
15:41:14 <AWK> ack lo
15:41:16 <bbailey> Joshue thinks this may conflicts with progressive enhancement
15:41:32 <Joshue> s/conflicts/conflict
15:41:59 <bbailey> Loretta understand concern for alternate version, but since we allow them, this should fine technique for alternative version
15:42:10 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:42:10 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:42:25 <Joshue> +q
15:42:27 <Joshue> ack me
15:42:28 <AWK> ack j
15:42:40 <bbailey> Ongoing issue that documenting techniques is interpreted as advocating technique as best practices
15:43:16 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:43:16 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:43:18 <bbailey> Joshue concerns with perception versus what is actually proposed in practice
15:43:46 <bbailey> David tries to paraphrase
15:44:19 <bbailey> That the conforming alternative version is available by link.
15:45:05 <Joshue> +q
15:45:10 <bbailey> AWK paraphrases as page making extensive use of progressive design, but all states of DOM not all testible
15:45:33 <bbailey> So idea is to have explicit link to robustly tested version
15:46:00 <bbailey> Technique could be pragmatic response to having too many combinations to test.
15:46:50 <bbailey> David possible likes idea.
15:46:58 <AWK> ack j
15:47:00 <Joshue> ack me
15:47:19 <bbailey> Don’t want this to be analogy of using back door kitchen door for wheelchair access.
15:47:50 <bbailey> Joshue likes approach since it can be quite practical.  Great flag for bigger issues.
15:47:52 <Wilco> +q to include a warning
15:48:15 <AWK> ack wilco
15:48:15 <Zakim> Wilco, you wanted to include a warning
15:48:22 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:48:22 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:48:23 <bbailey> Helps address versioning, and issues with accessibility supported.
15:48:40 <Zakim> -jon_avila
15:48:48 <bbailey> Wilco:  Could be good, may need significant caveats.
15:49:21 <bbailey> Would be better for default version to be accessible.  Fallback options are always a concern.
15:49:34 <Joshue> +1
15:50:03 <bbailey> RESOLUTION:  Communicate to Alistair that work is worth pursing
15:50:06 <AWK> Zakim, next item
15:50:06 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Misc Survey 6th May 2014 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140506/results  (only LC-2854)" taken up [from AWK]
15:50:26 <bbailey> s/pursing/pursuing/
15:51:08 <bbailey> Suggestion is get rid of acronym and just use abbr
15:51:44 <bbailey> Use abbr to mark up expansions
15:52:00 <MichaelC> ack me
15:52:18 <AWK> https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20130905/2854
15:52:28 <bbailey> Michael reviewing
15:53:02 <bbailey> RESOLUTION:  Accepted as ammended
15:53:25 <AWK> Zakim, next item
15:53:25 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Survey. Techniques and Institutional Memory. https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/13May2014/" taken up [from AWK]
15:54:16 <bbailey> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/13May2014/results#xcaptions
15:54:26 <bbailey> 1. [Updated Technique] Combining adjacent image and text links for the same resource
15:55:14 <bbailey> AWK suggest getting rid of example with closing slash so example combined and simplier
15:56:01 <bbailey> Does not really seem necessary to have both XHTML and HTML.
15:56:47 <bbailey> Bruce asks why example are different.
15:57:30 <MichaelC> ack me
15:57:37 <bbailey> Loretta points out that example have been there before, point was to rephrase as positive statements.
15:57:45 <bbailey> Bruce retracts his suggestion.
15:58:17 <AWK> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20081211/H2.html
15:59:11 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
15:59:11 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:59:17 <bbailey> Edit may make DIFF hard to spot
15:59:19 <AWK> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/index.php?title=Techniques%2FHTML%2FCombining_adjacent_image_and_text_links_for_the_same_resource&diff=4376&oldid=96
16:00:22 <bbailey> Michael feels rewording is an improvement
16:01:15 <bbailey> AWK asks about combining two examples.
16:01:37 <Joshue> Agreed
16:01:53 <bbailey> Only difference is a single slash, too much text for such trivial difference.
16:02:13 <bbailey> David, Joshue, Bruce agree with simplification
16:02:44 <bbailey> Michael points out that HTML5 prefers HTML syntax!
16:03:02 <bbailey> RESOLUTION:  Accepted as ammended
16:03:33 <Joshue> zakim, agenda?
16:03:33 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:03:34 <Zakim> 4. Survey. Techniques and Institutional Memory. https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/13May2014/ [from AWK]
16:03:56 <bbailey> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/13May2014/results#xaudiodes
16:04:26 <bbailey> Issue is that ARIA-invalid can be the solution or be part of a solution
16:04:44 <bbailey> Concern is that ARIA-invalid can be the solution or be part of a solution
16:06:03 <bbailey> Jon  has concern with useability for folks with low vision
16:06:38 <Joshue> Changing the text may be sufficient?
16:06:54 <bbailey> Example uses border attribute, so that helps.
16:07:03 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
16:07:03 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
16:07:08 <bbailey> Jon has suggested edit with phrasing
16:07:08 <Joshue> +q
16:07:50 <Joshue> ack me
16:08:00 <bbailey> James likes having CSS techniques
16:08:13 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
16:08:13 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
16:08:48 <bbailey> David clarifies that with example icon is in CSS
16:09:09 <Joshue> +1 to Jons suggestion
16:09:10 <bbailey> Discussion to small modification to support using CSS
16:10:14 <bbailey> Jon's suggestion to  second bullet, for example by using an error-icon rendered visually by some technique that does not rely on color such as a visual cue like a border.
16:10:28 <bbailey> James and others okay with this.
16:10:34 <MichaelC> ackme
16:10:35 <MichaelC> ack me
16:10:54 <bbailey> Michael asked to clarify his comment.
16:11:30 <bbailey> Discussion that AT support may not be sufficient.
16:11:56 <bbailey> May want aria-invalid plus label technique
16:12:35 <Joshue> ack me
16:12:47 <bbailey> Discussion that objective is have discreet technique that does not rely upon lable
16:14:01 <bbailey> Concern expressed with statement:  When visible text is used to programmatically identify a failed field and / or convey how the error can be corrected, setting aria-invalid to "true" is superfluous from a strict compliance standpoint.
16:14:41 <bbailey> Don’t want to steer people away from aria.
16:15:34 <bbailey> Michael:  This harkens back to long standing concern AT-push issue.
16:16:02 <bbailey> We want to encourage support for aria, but not require it
16:16:15 <bbailey> Discussion of text edit...
16:17:22 <bbailey> Michaels comment also applies to example 2.
16:18:39 <bbailey> Discussion how to edit examples to keep them parallel in form.
16:19:02 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
16:19:02 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
16:19:07 <Wilco> Wilco has left #wai-wcag
16:19:09 <Joshue> brb
16:19:27 <wilco> wilco has joined #wai-wcag
16:19:30 <bbailey> AKW and Michael make discussed changes to wiki page
16:20:17 <bbailey> AKW makes analogy to calendar controls
16:21:14 <bbailey> Highlight difference between “incorrect” and “missing”.
16:22:08 <bbailey> Examples now have both ARIA invalid and described by
16:22:09 <Joshue> zakim, queue?
16:22:09 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
16:22:57 <Joshue> +Q
16:23:03 <bbailey> Description updated as well.
16:23:07 <wilco> +q
16:23:12 <Joshue> ack me
16:23:13 <AWK> ack j
16:24:05 <bbailey> Wilco asks about error correction versus just error identification
16:24:24 <bbailey> s/Wilco asks about/Joshue asks about/
16:24:29 <AWK> ack w
16:24:32 <Joshue> ack wil
16:24:47 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
16:24:47 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
16:25:20 <bbailey> Wilco points out ambiguity in test procedure around “instructional text”
16:25:45 <bbailey> Discussion
16:25:50 <bbailey> q+
16:26:21 <bbailey> q-
16:26:24 <Joshue> BB: Isn't the requirement for the instruction text, we may not have prog association as an explicit requirement
16:26:48 <Joshue> ack me
16:28:16 <bbailey> Discussion that programmatic association for instructional text okay even if not required by SC, can be appropriate for technique.
16:30:01 <bbailey> RESOLUTION:  Accepted as amended
16:30:36 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
16:30:49 <bbailey> Did not get to last couple items.
16:30:53 <David> q+
16:31:10 <bbailey> AWK:  Have 5 or 6 techniques, but time running short
16:31:33 <bbailey> David has technique in progress for aria described by
16:32:01 <bbailey> Or may be aria labeled by, we can choose one over the other
16:32:41 <bbailey> Open call on Thursday, let Loretta or James know
16:32:47 <Zakim> -Joshue
16:32:49 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
16:32:50 <Zakim> -kathleen
16:32:51 <Zakim> -Wilco
16:32:51 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
16:32:53 <Zakim> -Loretta
16:33:08 <AWK> Zakim, list attendees
16:33:08 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been David_MacDonald, AWK, Bruce_Bailey, +31.30.239.aaaa, Wilco, kathleen, +1.571.389.aabb, jon_avila, Loretta, Lisa_Seeman, Michael_Cooper,
16:33:12 <Zakim> ... Joshue, James_Nurthen
16:33:31 <AWK> Zakim, make minutes
16:33:34 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes', AWK
16:33:42 <AWK> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:33:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/13-wai-wcag-minutes.html AWK
16:33:59 <Zakim> -Bruce_Bailey
16:34:00 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has ended
16:34:00 <Zakim> Attendees were David_MacDonald, AWK, Bruce_Bailey, +31.30.239.aaaa, Wilco, kathleen, +1.571.389.aabb, jon_avila, Loretta, Lisa_Seeman, Michael_Cooper, Joshue, James_Nurthen
16:34:00 <AWK> zakim, bye
16:34:00 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wai-wcag
16:36:27 <bbailey> Or maybe it is still being processed?