14:59:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pointerevents
14:59:00 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/05/06-pointerevents-irc
14:59:17 <Zakim> +Art_Barstow
14:59:27 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:59:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/06-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB
14:59:29 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log public
14:59:37 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:59:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/06-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB
14:59:58 <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
14:59:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft], Art_Barstow
15:00:00 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Cathy, jrossi, patrick_h_lauke, AutomatedTester, ArtB, scott_gonzalez, dfreedm_, mbrubeck__, rbyers_, sangwhan, slightlyoff_, trackbot
15:00:09 <ArtB> zakim [Microsoft] is jrossi
15:00:31 <Zakim> +Scott_Gonzalez
15:00:33 <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
15:00:33 <ArtB> Scribe: Art
15:00:33 <ArtB> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014AprJun/0043.html
15:00:33 <ArtB> Chair: Art
15:00:33 <ArtB> Meeting: Pointer Events WG Voice Conference
15:00:54 <Zakim> +Cathy
15:01:02 <smaug> smaug has joined #pointerevents
15:01:24 <Zakim> +rbyers
15:01:25 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
15:01:31 <smaug> in a minute
15:01:35 <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Scott_González, Cathy_Chan, Jacob_Rossi, Matt_Brubeck, Rick_Byers, Doug_Schepers
15:01:36 <Zakim> + +44.797.663.aaaa
15:01:49 <Zakim> +Matt_Brubeck
15:01:52 <ArtB> Present+ Patrick_Lauke
15:02:15 <ArtB> Regrets: Olli_Pettay, Sangwhan_Moon
15:02:21 <smaug> un-regrets
15:02:40 <patrick_h_lauke> zakim, aaaa is patrick_h_lauke
15:02:41 <ArtB> Regrets: Sangwhan_Moon
15:02:42 <Zakim> +patrick_h_lauke; got it
15:02:50 <ArtB> Topic: Tweak agenda
15:02:55 <ArtB> AB: hi All and welcome back. I think this is going to be a relatively short meeting ...
15:03:01 <ArtB> AB: I submitted a draft agenda yesterday <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014AprJun/0043.html>.
15:03:07 <ArtB> AB: there are 4 "real" bugs (topics #2-#5) plus 5 editorial bugs (topic #6). We won't discuss the editorial bugs.
15:03:21 <ArtB> AB: of the 4 real bugs (21749/agreement, 24923/action-98, 24971/action-102 and 25147/agreement), we have agreements and/or actions re addressing the bugs so we're waiting for the Editors to do some work.
15:03:57 <ArtB> AB: as such, unless someone wants to discuss any of these, it seems like we should drop them from today's agenda. However, it would be good to get at least a "rough" ETA on the fixes from the Editors.
15:03:59 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:04:11 <ArtB> Present+ Olli_Pettay
15:04:27 <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
15:04:27 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
15:04:36 <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
15:04:36 <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
15:04:45 <ArtB> AB: anyone want to discuss any of the open bugs?
15:04:49 <ArtB> [ None ]
15:05:17 <ArtB> JR: re the editorial changes, I don't see anything controversial
15:05:32 <patrick_h_lauke> (must try harder to be controversial :) )
15:05:35 <ArtB> … I'll get through those this week or next at the latest (10 days)
15:06:04 <ArtB> AB: what about the other 4 bugs, Jacob?
15:06:33 <ArtB> JR: one of them I'll get to when I do the editorial bugs
15:06:42 <ArtB> … 24971 is similar
15:06:57 <ArtB> … I don't see any other issues
15:07:09 <ArtB> … What is not represented is the discusion with Anne
15:07:24 <ArtB> … think there are a few more changes need to get more precise
15:07:49 <ArtB> … but I don't think they are substantive, mostly tweaking what we already have to tighten the spec
15:07:59 <ArtB> … don't expect any surprises by the related changes
15:08:19 <ArtB> … Not sure if we closed the bug re Anne's comments or have actions
15:08:32 <ArtB> … but we should probably have a bug to track those changes
15:08:52 <ArtB> AB: if you need to create any new bugs for the tracking, please do so
15:08:55 <ArtB> JR: will do
15:09:16 <ArtB> JR: one of the other issues was about stating more specifically the default actions for different events
15:09:28 <ArtB> … we talked off thread about this to seek some clarity
15:09:43 <ArtB> … think we arrived at the same conclusion re the order of action
15:09:57 <ArtB> … touch interaction models vary (with diff impls)
15:10:49 <ArtB> … he is looking for spec text re that something could happen with these actions/events and that the spec is intentionally not specific for some of these cases
15:11:25 <ArtB> AB: anything else on bugs for today?
15:11:57 <ArtB> … so another couple of weeks then re editorial work?
15:12:03 <ArtB> JR: yeah, that sounds about right
15:12:16 <ArtB> AB: ok, thanks Jacob
15:12:26 <ArtB> Topic: setPointerCapture and CSS pointer-events: none
15:12:35 <ArtB> AB: on April 16 Arthur Stolyar submitted this e-mail and I don't think anyone replied <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014AprJun/0024.html>
15:13:10 <patrick_h_lauke> there's also follow-up threads http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014AprJun/0023.html
15:13:10 <patrick_h_lauke> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014AprJun/0027.html
15:13:28 <patrick_h_lauke> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014AprJun/0022.html
15:13:32 <ArtB> AB: he sent other comments and there was followup
15:13:40 <ArtB> JR: think the response is simple
15:13:51 <ArtB> … PE CSS property isn't standard yet
15:14:10 <ArtB> … things like hit testing are defined
15:14:26 <ArtB> … think yes, it should be written down but no, not in scope for this spec
15:14:43 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #pointerevents
15:14:47 <ArtB> OP: CSS pointer events prop doesn't effect pointerCapture at all
15:15:08 <ArtB> … thus our spec doesn't need to say anything about CSS pointer events property
15:15:22 <ArtB> JR: does that CSS prop affect hit testing is one question
15:16:18 <ArtB> OP: capturing elements in other elements does not need hit testing
15:16:49 <ArtB> JR: I can reply to Arthur or Olli can
15:17:07 <ArtB> … we need to explain the behavior but the CSS property needs a standard too
15:17:10 <ArtB> OP: I can reply
15:17:41 <ArtB> RB: SVG has some relevant text
15:17:52 <ArtB> … we could submit a comment to SVG about this
15:18:18 <ArtB> DS: yes, PE is about hit testing and SVG can be a target but only if retargeted
15:19:02 <ArtB> … we started defining hit testing
15:19:14 <ArtB> … but then it was put in CSS UI Events
15:19:21 <ArtB> … and it was later removed
15:19:34 <ArtB> … if someone wants to work on a hit testing spec, please let me know
15:19:50 <ArtB> … the Web needs a spec and I can help anyone that wants to work on the spec
15:19:54 <patrick_h_lauke> +q
15:20:10 <patrick_h_lauke> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014AprJun/0027.html
15:21:27 <ArtB> PL: perhaps need some text about some UA not firing pointer out and leave because of performance reasons
15:21:47 <jrossi> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEvents.html#pointer-capture
15:22:00 <ArtB> RB: which browser had that behavior?
15:22:05 <ArtB> PL: IE 10 and WP 8
15:22:26 <ArtB> … I replied to ArthurS and he provided a test case
15:23:15 <ArtB> … run into a hit testing peformance optimization
15:23:44 <ArtB> JR: two things here and enter/leave defined in the section I list above
15:24:08 <ArtB> … once start touch action like panning, use something like capture to pan what is touched but doesn't effect the events
15:25:08 <ArtB> PL: I'll try to create a simple demo and replicate what I'm doing
15:25:16 <jrossi> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEvents.html#firing-events-using-the-pointerevent-interface
15:25:30 <ArtB> JR:  in the link above, it describes these capture cases
15:25:52 <jrossi> JR: specifically, captures when relatedTarget is null
15:26:08 <ArtB> ACTION: olli reply to Arthur Stolyar's "setPointerCapture and CSS pointer-events: none" thread
15:26:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-105 - Reply to arthur stolyar's "setpointercapture and css pointer-events: none" thread [on Olli Pettay - due 2014-05-13].
15:26:19 <ArtB> Topic: Testing
15:26:25 <ArtB> AB: we have PR324 <https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/324/> and review assignments by Matt: see <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014AprJun/0019.html> and <https://gist.github.com/mbrubeck/10757662/revisions>
15:26:38 <ArtB> AB: the open Issues are: <https://github.com/InternetExplorer/web-platform-tests/issues>
15:27:07 <ArtB> RB: I should be done my reviews by EoD
15:27:19 <ArtB> … these files are much easier to read and understand the tests
15:27:39 <Cathy> +1 on the improvements on the tests. Much thanks to the MSFT team.
15:27:39 <ArtB> … so far I have only found minor issues and I can file issues for those
15:27:53 <ArtB> MB: I think I am done my reviews but I'll double check
15:28:30 <ArtB> RB: Cathy completed her reviews as well as Art's
15:28:46 <ArtB> JR: ok, I'll forward this email to the test author
15:29:02 <ArtB> … we have a couple of additional tests we will submit
15:29:11 <ArtB> … and get them in within a couple of weeks
15:29:16 <ArtB> … I am review them now
15:29:43 <ArtB> AB: thanks everyone for doing that work!
15:29:49 <ArtB> Topic: CR implementation updates
15:29:54 <ArtB> AB: does anyone have any new implementation data to share?
15:29:59 <rbyers> correction to the above on test review, I said I've found minor issues that can be fixed easily AND filed issues for larger changes.
15:30:25 <ArtB> Topic: AoB
15:30:51 <ArtB> RB: are people willing to talk about Touch Events CG
15:30:59 <ArtB> Topic: Touch Events CG
15:31:16 <rbyers> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-touchevents/2014Apr/0004.html
15:31:19 <ArtB> RB: one issue is what to do about bug fixes for the Touch Events spec
15:31:49 <ArtB> … in the mail above, bug is described and it needs a fix
15:32:11 <ArtB> … there could be a debate on which impls are doing the right thing
15:32:18 <ArtB> … we are going to change Chrome implementation
15:32:40 <ArtB> … Want to know how to proceed, and if we want to change the spec, how do we do that?
15:32:59 <ArtB> … various options.
15:33:08 <ArtB> RB: I think this is a bug in the spec
15:33:12 <patrick_h_lauke> my feeling: work on making the w3c touch events spec errata
15:33:21 <patrick_h_lauke> with shepazu's help perhaps
15:33:27 <ArtB> … not clear how to proceed. Could create a errata
15:33:33 <ArtB> … not sure about other options
15:33:35 <patrick_h_lauke> NOT fork to WHATWG
15:33:35 <rbyers> s/RB/MB/
15:33:40 <shepazu> q+
15:33:55 <ArtB> JR: our interest is more about the interaction of TE and PE
15:34:05 <ArtB> … and not so much interested in updating the TE spec
15:34:12 <ArtB> … our position is to keep the work in W3C
15:34:40 <patrick_h_lauke> q-
15:34:45 <ArtB> … re the interaction issues, prefer to publish the errata
15:35:03 <ArtB> … I'm not sure about the process but errata seems appropriate
15:35:15 <ArtB> DS: re the process, we could make an errata and publish it
15:35:32 <ArtB> … the errata is part of a "Proposed Edited Recommendation"
15:35:51 <ArtB> … one problem is that we no longer have a WG for the spec
15:36:04 <ArtB> … I can investigate how to handle this scenario
15:36:26 <ArtB> … I hope we can come up with a light-weight way to publish a new spec
15:36:44 <ArtB> RB: I'd be happy to start with just publishing the errata
15:37:04 <ArtB> … the "do we publish new REC" question is secondary
15:37:23 <ArtB> … important to get an updated spec
15:37:50 <ArtB> … there are also some editorial changes that need to be made
15:38:27 <ArtB> DS: errata can include bug fixes
15:39:16 <ArtB> JR: agree with Rick clarifying the floating point issue is important
15:39:38 <ArtB> AB: is there a list of the bugs and issues?
15:39:51 <ArtB> RB: these are the two most important
15:39:52 <patrick_h_lauke> possible extra item for errata: define what happens when trying to cancel touchend http://www.w3.org/TR/touch-events/#mouse-events
15:40:41 <patrick_h_lauke> "Please refer to the errata for this document" pointing to http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/REC-touch-events-20131010/REC-touch-events-20131010-errata.html
15:40:43 <ArtB> DS: we can publish errata as a first step
15:41:14 <ArtB> … if/when we have more substantive changes we want to make we can consider publishing an Edited Proposed REC
15:42:17 <ArtB> ACTION: Doug report to the Touch Events CG how to proceed with errata for the Touch Events spec
15:42:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-106 - Report to the touch events cg how to proceed with errata for the touch events spec [on Doug Schepers - due 2014-05-13].
15:42:28 <patrick_h_lauke> cheers doug
15:43:10 <Zakim> -Art_Barstow
15:43:12 <Zakim> -rbyers
15:43:13 <Zakim> -patrick_h_lauke
15:43:13 <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
15:43:14 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
15:43:15 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
15:43:16 <Zakim> -Cathy
15:43:20 <Zakim> -Scott_Gonzalez
15:43:21 <ArtB> AB: anything else for today?
15:43:24 <ArtB> [ No ]
15:43:30 <Zakim> -Matt_Brubeck
15:43:31 <Zakim> RWC_PEWG()11:00AM has ended
15:43:31 <Zakim> Attendees were [Microsoft], Art_Barstow, Scott_Gonzalez, Cathy, rbyers, Doug_Schepers, +44.797.663.aaaa, Matt_Brubeck, patrick_h_lauke, Olli_Pettay
15:43:48 <patrick_h_lauke> patrick_h_lauke has joined #pointerevents
15:43:50 <ArtB> AB: given where we are today, I don't expect a need for a meeting for a couple of weeks.
15:43:55 <ArtB> AB: meeting adjourned
15:44:00 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:44:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/06-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB
15:44:42 <patrick_h_lauke> btw, just to flog a dead horse re the "is keyboard navigation a 'pointer'" and the answer at the time of "no because it does not send coordinates" ... http://patrickhlauke.github.io/touch/tests/results/#faked-event-coordinates ;)
15:45:26 <patrick_h_lauke> (don't worry, not restarting that campaign, happy enough with the addition of the keyboard note in the intro...just thought it was interesting nonetheless that some browsers/AT DO send coords, and firefox is quite sane here)
16:49:10 <ArtB> zakim, bye
16:49:10 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pointerevents
16:49:14 <ArtB> rrsagent, bye
16:49:14 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/05/06-pointerevents-actions.rdf :
16:49:14 <RRSAgent> ACTION: olli reply to Arthur Stolyar's "setPointerCapture and CSS pointer-events: none" thread [1]
16:49:14 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/05/06-pointerevents-irc#T15-26-08
16:49:14 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Doug report to the Touch Events CG how to proceed with errata for the Touch Events spec [2]
16:49:14 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/05/06-pointerevents-irc#T15-42-17