IRC log of pointerevents on 2014-05-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:59:00 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:59:17 [Zakim]
14:59:27 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
14:59:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
14:59:29 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make log public
14:59:37 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
14:59:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
14:59:58 [ArtB]
zakim, who's here?
14:59:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Microsoft], Art_Barstow
15:00:00 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Cathy, jrossi, patrick_h_lauke, AutomatedTester, ArtB, scott_gonzalez, dfreedm_, mbrubeck__, rbyers_, sangwhan, slightlyoff_, trackbot
15:00:09 [ArtB]
zakim [Microsoft] is jrossi
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15:00:33 [ArtB]
ScribeNick: ArtB
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Scribe: Art
15:00:33 [ArtB]
15:00:33 [ArtB]
Chair: Art
15:00:33 [ArtB]
Meeting: Pointer Events WG Voice Conference
15:00:54 [Zakim]
15:01:02 [smaug]
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15:01:31 [smaug]
in a minute
15:01:35 [ArtB]
Present: Art_Barstow, Scott_González, Cathy_Chan, Jacob_Rossi, Matt_Brubeck, Rick_Byers, Doug_Schepers
15:01:36 [Zakim]
+ +44.797.663.aaaa
15:01:49 [Zakim]
15:01:52 [ArtB]
Present+ Patrick_Lauke
15:02:15 [ArtB]
Regrets: Olli_Pettay, Sangwhan_Moon
15:02:21 [smaug]
15:02:40 [patrick_h_lauke]
zakim, aaaa is patrick_h_lauke
15:02:41 [ArtB]
Regrets: Sangwhan_Moon
15:02:42 [Zakim]
+patrick_h_lauke; got it
15:02:50 [ArtB]
Topic: Tweak agenda
15:02:55 [ArtB]
AB: hi All and welcome back. I think this is going to be a relatively short meeting ...
15:03:01 [ArtB]
AB: I submitted a draft agenda yesterday <>.
15:03:07 [ArtB]
AB: there are 4 "real" bugs (topics #2-#5) plus 5 editorial bugs (topic #6). We won't discuss the editorial bugs.
15:03:21 [ArtB]
AB: of the 4 real bugs (21749/agreement, 24923/action-98, 24971/action-102 and 25147/agreement), we have agreements and/or actions re addressing the bugs so we're waiting for the Editors to do some work.
15:03:57 [ArtB]
AB: as such, unless someone wants to discuss any of these, it seems like we should drop them from today's agenda. However, it would be good to get at least a "rough" ETA on the fixes from the Editors.
15:03:59 [Zakim]
15:04:11 [ArtB]
Present+ Olli_Pettay
15:04:27 [smaug]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
15:04:27 [Zakim]
+Olli_Pettay; got it
15:04:36 [smaug]
Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
15:04:36 [Zakim]
ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
15:04:45 [ArtB]
AB: anyone want to discuss any of the open bugs?
15:04:49 [ArtB]
[ None ]
15:05:17 [ArtB]
JR: re the editorial changes, I don't see anything controversial
15:05:32 [patrick_h_lauke]
(must try harder to be controversial :) )
15:05:35 [ArtB]
… I'll get through those this week or next at the latest (10 days)
15:06:04 [ArtB]
AB: what about the other 4 bugs, Jacob?
15:06:33 [ArtB]
JR: one of them I'll get to when I do the editorial bugs
15:06:42 [ArtB]
… 24971 is similar
15:06:57 [ArtB]
… I don't see any other issues
15:07:09 [ArtB]
… What is not represented is the discusion with Anne
15:07:24 [ArtB]
… think there are a few more changes need to get more precise
15:07:49 [ArtB]
… but I don't think they are substantive, mostly tweaking what we already have to tighten the spec
15:07:59 [ArtB]
… don't expect any surprises by the related changes
15:08:19 [ArtB]
… Not sure if we closed the bug re Anne's comments or have actions
15:08:32 [ArtB]
… but we should probably have a bug to track those changes
15:08:52 [ArtB]
AB: if you need to create any new bugs for the tracking, please do so
15:08:55 [ArtB]
JR: will do
15:09:16 [ArtB]
JR: one of the other issues was about stating more specifically the default actions for different events
15:09:28 [ArtB]
… we talked off thread about this to seek some clarity
15:09:43 [ArtB]
… think we arrived at the same conclusion re the order of action
15:09:57 [ArtB]
… touch interaction models vary (with diff impls)
15:10:49 [ArtB]
… he is looking for spec text re that something could happen with these actions/events and that the spec is intentionally not specific for some of these cases
15:11:25 [ArtB]
AB: anything else on bugs for today?
15:11:57 [ArtB]
… so another couple of weeks then re editorial work?
15:12:03 [ArtB]
JR: yeah, that sounds about right
15:12:16 [ArtB]
AB: ok, thanks Jacob
15:12:26 [ArtB]
Topic: setPointerCapture and CSS pointer-events: none
15:12:35 [ArtB]
AB: on April 16 Arthur Stolyar submitted this e-mail and I don't think anyone replied <>
15:13:10 [patrick_h_lauke]
there's also follow-up threads
15:13:10 [patrick_h_lauke]
15:13:28 [patrick_h_lauke]
15:13:32 [ArtB]
AB: he sent other comments and there was followup
15:13:40 [ArtB]
JR: think the response is simple
15:13:51 [ArtB]
… PE CSS property isn't standard yet
15:14:10 [ArtB]
… things like hit testing are defined
15:14:26 [ArtB]
… think yes, it should be written down but no, not in scope for this spec
15:14:43 [shepazu]
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15:14:47 [ArtB]
OP: CSS pointer events prop doesn't effect pointerCapture at all
15:15:08 [ArtB]
… thus our spec doesn't need to say anything about CSS pointer events property
15:15:22 [ArtB]
JR: does that CSS prop affect hit testing is one question
15:16:18 [ArtB]
OP: capturing elements in other elements does not need hit testing
15:16:49 [ArtB]
JR: I can reply to Arthur or Olli can
15:17:07 [ArtB]
… we need to explain the behavior but the CSS property needs a standard too
15:17:10 [ArtB]
OP: I can reply
15:17:41 [ArtB]
RB: SVG has some relevant text
15:17:52 [ArtB]
… we could submit a comment to SVG about this
15:18:18 [ArtB]
DS: yes, PE is about hit testing and SVG can be a target but only if retargeted
15:19:02 [ArtB]
… we started defining hit testing
15:19:14 [ArtB]
… but then it was put in CSS UI Events
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… and it was later removed
15:19:34 [ArtB]
… if someone wants to work on a hit testing spec, please let me know
15:19:50 [ArtB]
… the Web needs a spec and I can help anyone that wants to work on the spec
15:19:54 [patrick_h_lauke]
15:20:10 [patrick_h_lauke]
15:21:27 [ArtB]
PL: perhaps need some text about some UA not firing pointer out and leave because of performance reasons
15:21:47 [jrossi]
15:22:00 [ArtB]
RB: which browser had that behavior?
15:22:05 [ArtB]
PL: IE 10 and WP 8
15:22:26 [ArtB]
… I replied to ArthurS and he provided a test case
15:23:15 [ArtB]
… run into a hit testing peformance optimization
15:23:44 [ArtB]
JR: two things here and enter/leave defined in the section I list above
15:24:08 [ArtB]
… once start touch action like panning, use something like capture to pan what is touched but doesn't effect the events
15:25:08 [ArtB]
PL: I'll try to create a simple demo and replicate what I'm doing
15:25:16 [jrossi]
15:25:30 [ArtB]
JR: in the link above, it describes these capture cases
15:25:52 [jrossi]
JR: specifically, captures when relatedTarget is null
15:26:08 [ArtB]
ACTION: olli reply to Arthur Stolyar's "setPointerCapture and CSS pointer-events: none" thread
15:26:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-105 - Reply to arthur stolyar's "setpointercapture and css pointer-events: none" thread [on Olli Pettay - due 2014-05-13].
15:26:19 [ArtB]
Topic: Testing
15:26:25 [ArtB]
AB: we have PR324 <> and review assignments by Matt: see <> and <>
15:26:38 [ArtB]
AB: the open Issues are: <>
15:27:07 [ArtB]
RB: I should be done my reviews by EoD
15:27:19 [ArtB]
… these files are much easier to read and understand the tests
15:27:39 [Cathy]
+1 on the improvements on the tests. Much thanks to the MSFT team.
15:27:39 [ArtB]
… so far I have only found minor issues and I can file issues for those
15:27:53 [ArtB]
MB: I think I am done my reviews but I'll double check
15:28:30 [ArtB]
RB: Cathy completed her reviews as well as Art's
15:28:46 [ArtB]
JR: ok, I'll forward this email to the test author
15:29:02 [ArtB]
… we have a couple of additional tests we will submit
15:29:11 [ArtB]
… and get them in within a couple of weeks
15:29:16 [ArtB]
… I am review them now
15:29:43 [ArtB]
AB: thanks everyone for doing that work!
15:29:49 [ArtB]
Topic: CR implementation updates
15:29:54 [ArtB]
AB: does anyone have any new implementation data to share?
15:29:59 [rbyers]
correction to the above on test review, I said I've found minor issues that can be fixed easily AND filed issues for larger changes.
15:30:25 [ArtB]
Topic: AoB
15:30:51 [ArtB]
RB: are people willing to talk about Touch Events CG
15:30:59 [ArtB]
Topic: Touch Events CG
15:31:16 [rbyers]
15:31:19 [ArtB]
RB: one issue is what to do about bug fixes for the Touch Events spec
15:31:49 [ArtB]
… in the mail above, bug is described and it needs a fix
15:32:11 [ArtB]
… there could be a debate on which impls are doing the right thing
15:32:18 [ArtB]
… we are going to change Chrome implementation
15:32:40 [ArtB]
… Want to know how to proceed, and if we want to change the spec, how do we do that?
15:32:59 [ArtB]
… various options.
15:33:08 [ArtB]
RB: I think this is a bug in the spec
15:33:12 [patrick_h_lauke]
my feeling: work on making the w3c touch events spec errata
15:33:21 [patrick_h_lauke]
with shepazu's help perhaps
15:33:27 [ArtB]
… not clear how to proceed. Could create a errata
15:33:33 [ArtB]
… not sure about other options
15:33:35 [patrick_h_lauke]
NOT fork to WHATWG
15:33:35 [rbyers]
15:33:40 [shepazu]
15:33:55 [ArtB]
JR: our interest is more about the interaction of TE and PE
15:34:05 [ArtB]
… and not so much interested in updating the TE spec
15:34:12 [ArtB]
… our position is to keep the work in W3C
15:34:40 [patrick_h_lauke]
15:34:45 [ArtB]
… re the interaction issues, prefer to publish the errata
15:35:03 [ArtB]
… I'm not sure about the process but errata seems appropriate
15:35:15 [ArtB]
DS: re the process, we could make an errata and publish it
15:35:32 [ArtB]
… the errata is part of a "Proposed Edited Recommendation"
15:35:51 [ArtB]
… one problem is that we no longer have a WG for the spec
15:36:04 [ArtB]
… I can investigate how to handle this scenario
15:36:26 [ArtB]
… I hope we can come up with a light-weight way to publish a new spec
15:36:44 [ArtB]
RB: I'd be happy to start with just publishing the errata
15:37:04 [ArtB]
… the "do we publish new REC" question is secondary
15:37:23 [ArtB]
… important to get an updated spec
15:37:50 [ArtB]
… there are also some editorial changes that need to be made
15:38:27 [ArtB]
DS: errata can include bug fixes
15:39:16 [ArtB]
JR: agree with Rick clarifying the floating point issue is important
15:39:38 [ArtB]
AB: is there a list of the bugs and issues?
15:39:51 [ArtB]
RB: these are the two most important
15:39:52 [patrick_h_lauke]
possible extra item for errata: define what happens when trying to cancel touchend
15:40:41 [patrick_h_lauke]
"Please refer to the errata for this document" pointing to
15:40:43 [ArtB]
DS: we can publish errata as a first step
15:41:14 [ArtB]
… if/when we have more substantive changes we want to make we can consider publishing an Edited Proposed REC
15:42:17 [ArtB]
ACTION: Doug report to the Touch Events CG how to proceed with errata for the Touch Events spec
15:42:18 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-106 - Report to the touch events cg how to proceed with errata for the touch events spec [on Doug Schepers - due 2014-05-13].
15:42:28 [patrick_h_lauke]
cheers doug
15:43:10 [Zakim]
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15:43:21 [ArtB]
AB: anything else for today?
15:43:24 [ArtB]
[ No ]
15:43:30 [Zakim]
15:43:31 [Zakim]
RWC_PEWG()11:00AM has ended
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Attendees were [Microsoft], Art_Barstow, Scott_Gonzalez, Cathy, rbyers, Doug_Schepers, +44.797.663.aaaa, Matt_Brubeck, patrick_h_lauke, Olli_Pettay
15:43:48 [patrick_h_lauke]
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15:43:50 [ArtB]
AB: given where we are today, I don't expect a need for a meeting for a couple of weeks.
15:43:55 [ArtB]
AB: meeting adjourned
15:44:00 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
15:44:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
15:44:42 [patrick_h_lauke]
btw, just to flog a dead horse re the "is keyboard navigation a 'pointer'" and the answer at the time of "no because it does not send coordinates" ... ;)
15:45:26 [patrick_h_lauke]
(don't worry, not restarting that campaign, happy enough with the addition of the keyboard note in the intro...just thought it was interesting nonetheless that some browsers/AT DO send coords, and firefox is quite sane here)
16:49:10 [ArtB]
zakim, bye
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rrsagent, bye
16:49:14 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in :
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ACTION: olli reply to Arthur Stolyar's "setPointerCapture and CSS pointer-events: none" thread [1]
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recorded in
16:49:14 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Doug report to the Touch Events CG how to proceed with errata for the Touch Events spec [2]
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recorded in