18:58:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
18:58:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/05/06-aapi-irc
18:58:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
18:58:25 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
18:58:27 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:58:27 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
18:58:28 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:58:28 <trackbot> Date: 06 May 2014
18:58:58 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has now started
18:59:05 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
18:59:18 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:59:18 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
18:59:27 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:59:27 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:59:36 <clown> chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:59:59 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa
19:00:03 <clown> agenda: this
19:00:10 <clown> agenda+ No meeting next week.  Think about what edits (issues/actions) are most important for next heart beat draft.
19:00:20 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-481/ACTION-1368 (Cynthia): Investigate IE implementation of aria-live region events.
19:00:26 <Zakim> +Joanie_Diggs
19:00:31 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1408 (Joseph): Email Jason Kiss followup re: AAPI that describes API differences.
19:00:40 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-594: (David, Joanie): tablist has implicit live region mapping in UIA guide (IA2, ATK).
19:00:48 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1371/ISSUE-618 (Cynthia): Test case for IE selection on a single selection container when item becomes unselected.
19:00:49 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
19:00:56 <clown> agenda+ 1.1 ISSUES and ACTIONS: (All)  Start with ACTION-842, https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/842
19:01:03 <clown> agenda+ be done.
19:01:16 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
19:01:17 <Zakim> ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
19:02:26 <clown> agenda?
19:02:54 <joanie> Zakim, I am Joanie_Diggs
19:02:54 <Zakim> ok, joanie, I now associate you with Joanie_Diggs
19:03:05 <joanie> scribenick: joanie
19:06:17 <Zakim> +David_Bolter
19:06:22 <cyns> cyns has joined #aapi
19:06:50 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
19:06:50 <Zakim> agendum 1. "No meeting next week.  Think about what edits (issues/actions) are most important for next heart beat draft." taken up [from clown]
19:06:56 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
19:07:19 <cyns> zakim, microsoft has me
19:07:19 <Zakim> +cyns; got it
19:07:23 <joanie> JS: There's no meeting next week because I'm on vacation.
19:07:41 <joanie> JS: But it has been suggested by the main group that we have a heart beat draft of all the spec stuff
19:07:50 <joanie> JS: And they want that by the end of the month.
19:08:09 <joanie> JS: So perhaps while I am away, you all could go through everything and see if there is anything you want done.
19:08:34 <joanie> DB: (asks about heart beat draft)
19:08:55 <joanie> JS: Usually we have done a heart beat draft when we have a critical mass of things to publish
19:09:06 <joanie> JS: The main group seems to be leaning towards every 3 months
19:09:19 <joanie> JS: This round, already converted to re-spec, moved to github
19:09:28 <joanie> JS: And James Craig has also done a lot
19:09:40 <joanie> JS: Let's find things we can agree to quickly and include in this heart beat
19:09:50 <joanie> DB: Looking over issues and actions is the easiest
19:10:02 <joanie> JS: Yes
19:10:49 <joanie> JS: We added back the UIA mappings
19:11:10 <joanie> JS: We also are adding things Joanie submitted via a comment
19:11:14 <joanie> JS: Anything else?
19:11:17 <joanie> DB: When?
19:11:26 <joanie> JS: They want to publish by the end of the month.
19:11:37 <joanie> JS: When we meet next we need to decide.
19:11:46 <joanie> JS: I don't actually publish this; Michael does.
19:11:55 <joanie> CS: Working Drafts are a work in progress
19:12:53 <joanie> CS: But we want to be sure they are ready for the wider audience
19:13:07 <joanie> CS: If we can get a few more issues in there, great; if not, just be sure it is ready to publish
19:13:15 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 2
19:13:15 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ISSUE-481/ACTION-1368 (Cynthia): Investigate IE implementation of aria-live region events." taken up [from clown]
19:13:19 <clown> ACTION-1368?
19:13:19 <trackbot> ACTION-1368 -- Cynthia Shelly to Investigate implementation of aria-live region events in ie apropos issue-481. -- due 2014-04-29 -- OPEN
19:13:19 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1368
19:13:31 <joanie> JS: This one was due last week, while I was away.
19:13:46 <joanie> JS: It's one of these issues about ARIA Live Regions, removal events.
19:14:00 <joanie> JS: Do you tell the AT ahead of time so that it can report was removed?
19:14:10 <joanie> JS: Both Cynthia and David had an action item
19:14:12 <davidb> my action is 1369
19:14:27 <joanie> CS: I haven't done it yet
19:14:32 <clown> action-1369?
19:14:32 <trackbot> action-1369 -- David Bolter to Investigate implementation of aria-live region events in FF -- due 2014-05-06 -- OPEN
19:14:32 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1369
19:14:45 <joanie> DB: I think Matt raised it because it is important for some cases.
19:15:15 <clown> issue-481?
19:15:15 <trackbot> issue-481 -- aria-live removal events should or must happen before object removal -- open
19:15:15 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/481
19:15:15 <joanie> DB: I am going to give a long version why we should leave it as SHOULD.
19:15:36 <joanie> DB: For ATs in process, they have access to what is going to be removed before it is removed from memory
19:15:52 <joanie> DB: An additional complication is Firefox is moving to multiprocess
19:16:03 <joanie> DB: AT can only inject into the main process
19:16:12 <joanie> DB: Which means they won't be in-process with content
19:16:22 <joanie> DB: Which means this issue is going to become moot.
19:16:44 <joanie> DB: I cannot speak with certainty until we make this change
19:16:56 <joanie> DB: But I don't know if making it a MUST is going to be viable.
19:17:08 <joanie> DB: Alex and I are leaning to keeping it a SHOULD.
19:17:37 <joanie> JS: My feeling is that we need to engage Matt King.
19:17:41 <joanie> DB: I can follow up
19:17:51 <joanie> JS: Yes, send him an email referencing the original issue.
19:18:03 <joanie> JS: And explaining what Mozilla is doing
19:18:18 <joanie> DB: I would be curious to know what IE thinks about all this.
19:18:45 <joanie> action-1368?
19:18:45 <trackbot> action-1368 -- Cynthia Shelly to Investigate implementation of aria-live region events in ie apropos issue-481. -- due 2014-04-29 -- OPEN
19:18:45 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1368
19:19:10 <joanie> CS: That's not showing up in my open actions.... Oh yes it is.
19:19:15 <joanie> JS: It is issue 481
19:20:32 <davidb> action: davidb to contact Matt King regarding issue-481, especially regarding multi-process
19:20:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1434 - Contact matt king regarding issue-481, especially regarding multi-process [on David Bolter - due 2014-05-13].
19:20:42 <clown> action-1434?
19:20:42 <trackbot> action-1434 -- David Bolter to Contact matt king regarding issue-481, especially regarding multi-process -- due 2014-05-13 -- OPEN
19:20:42 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1434
19:21:26 <joanie> JS: We can close 1361
19:21:47 <davidb> BTW FTR here is my note in action 1369 "We'd like to leave this a SHOULD for now. Ultimately it would be good to spec this for both in-process and out-of-process AT interaction. Separately, there is an additional complication in implementation for multi-process browsers where AT does not interact directly with the content process."
19:21:53 <joanie> s/1361/1369/
19:22:22 <clown> close action-1369
19:22:22 <trackbot> Closed action-1369.
19:22:55 <joanie> zakim, take up item 3
19:22:55 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ACTION-1408 (Joseph): Email Jason Kiss followup re: AAPI that describes API differences." taken up [from clown]
19:23:05 <joanie> JS: I haven't done it yet.
19:23:20 <joanie> JS: This is the whole business of adding a section to the UAIG
19:23:30 <joanie> JS: that explains the accessibility APIs
19:23:39 <joanie> JS: He shared a long email thread
19:23:51 <clown> action-1408?
19:23:52 <trackbot> action-1408 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Send email to jason kiss to ask him if he could write an aapi section that describes api differences. -- due 2014-05-06 -- OPEN
19:23:52 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1408
19:23:56 <joanie> JS: I am going to do this at the end of the month.
19:24:03 <joanie> JS: It is not going to be part of the heart beat.
19:24:21 <joanie> JS: I want to get a better understanding of what we are talking about so I can ask the appropriate questions.
19:24:39 <joanie> JS: I may get it done before then (June 10th)
19:24:52 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 4
19:24:52 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ISSUE-594: (David, Joanie): tablist has implicit live region mapping in UIA guide (IA2, ATK)." taken up [from clown]
19:25:02 <clown> ISSUE-594?
19:25:02 <trackbot> ISSUE-594 -- tablist role has implicit live region mapping in UIA guide -- raised
19:25:02 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/594
19:25:04 <joanie> JS: This is one of the ones we can wrap up quickly.
19:25:27 <joanie> JS: This is strange, in the mapping tables, Tab Lists for IA2 and ATK/AT-SPI, Tab List is marked as a live region.
19:25:37 <joanie> JS: Steven Faulkner suggested we remove this.
19:25:43 <clown> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=896400
19:25:51 <joanie> JS: It looks like Firefox has already done the removal.
19:26:04 <joanie> DB: I think Marco found this behavior annoying
19:26:14 <joanie> JS: I wanted to check with both of you that this is the right thing to do.
19:26:36 <joanie> JD: I agree.
19:26:46 <joanie> DB: It would be interesting to know how it crept in.
19:27:14 <joanie> BG: I was wondering if Tab Panel has the same thing.
19:27:57 <joanie> DB: In Firefox, Tab List and their associated content were not represented semantically in the tree.
19:28:03 <joanie> DB: They were in separate branches.
19:28:18 <joanie> DB: One suggestion was to use active descendant. Maybe there was a mix-up?
19:28:59 <clown> action: Joseph to edit the IA2 and ATK/AT-SPI entries for role tablist to remove the live region aspects of the mapping.
19:28:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1435 - Edit the ia2 and atk/at-spi entries for role tablist to remove the live region aspects of the mapping. [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2014-05-13].
19:29:07 <clown> action-1435?
19:29:07 <trackbot> action-1435 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Edit the ia2 and atk/at-spi entries for role tablist to remove the live region aspects of the mapping. -- due 2014-05-13 -- OPEN
19:29:07 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1435
19:30:37 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 5
19:30:37 <Zakim> agendum 5. "ACTION-1371/ISSUE-618 (Cynthia): Test case for IE selection on a single selection container when item becomes unselected." taken up [from clown]
19:30:50 <clown> action-1371?
19:30:50 <trackbot> action-1371 -- Cynthia Shelly to Investigate what ie does for single selection container when item becomes unselected, and create a test case (issue-618). -- due 2014-04-08 -- OPEN
19:30:50 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1371
19:31:26 <joanie> CS: Why don't we say end of May?
19:31:37 <joanie> CS: Let's do the 29th.
19:31:46 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 6
19:31:46 <Zakim> agendum 6. "1.1 ISSUES and ACTIONS: (All)  Start with ACTION-842, https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/842" taken up [from clown]
19:31:57 <joanie> JS: This is triage.
19:32:17 <joanie> JS: Let's start at the top and go through them.
19:32:28 <clown> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=896400
19:32:36 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23
19:32:44 <clown> action-842?
19:32:44 <trackbot> action-842 -- Cynthia Shelly to Create a diagram to support 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree -- due 2011-06-21 -- OPEN
19:32:44 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/842
19:33:04 <joanie> DB: This is not going to be detailed, correct?
19:33:11 <joanie> CS: My intention was to make it detailed.
19:33:26 <joanie> DB: Our accessibility trees aren't the same right?
19:34:32 <joanie> CS: On this action, I think we should make it a 1.1 action.
19:35:03 <joanie> CS: If we don't make it in time, we should remove it.
19:35:11 <joanie> JS: We'll make it September 2.
19:35:34 <joanie> CS: (Clarifies the "1.2" in the action refers to the section)
19:36:25 <clown> action-980?
19:36:25 <trackbot> action-980 -- Cynthia Shelly to Define mappings for managed aria related states: aria-setsize, aria-posinset, arla-level, focused, focusable with reference to section 5.5 bullet 1 of the UAIG. -- due 2014-05-01 -- OPEN
19:36:25 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/980
19:38:15 <clown> clown has joined #aapi
19:38:31 <clown> asdfasdf
19:38:57 <clown> user agents must compute managed states VISIBLE/INVISIBLE, SHOWING/OFFSCREEN, etc. This typically is done in the same way as for ordinary elements that do not have WAI-ARIA attributes present. The FOCUSABLE/FOCUSED states may be affected by aria-activedescendant. See the rules in Controlling focus with aria-activedescendant.
19:40:14 <clown> http://localhost/~clown/GitHub/aria/implementation/aria-implementation.html#mapping_state-property
19:40:29 <joanie> CS: Is it adding more detail? Is that what it's asking for?
19:40:35 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html#mapping_state-property
19:40:47 <joanie> DB: I guess it's asking us to define how it's done so we come up with the same thing.
19:42:06 <joanie> DB: We have an HTML version (accessibility guide)....
19:42:15 <joanie> CS: Why do you think it belongs there and not in ARIA?
19:42:23 <joanie> DB: The language might be similar.
19:42:37 <joanie> CS: It makes sense to define it in HTML and reference it in ARIA.
19:42:46 <joanie> CS: Add that to the issue.
19:42:58 <joanie> CS: Should I do this or should David?
19:43:05 <joanie> DB: Who is doing the HTML guide
19:43:37 <joanie> JS: The editors for that guide are Jason Kiss, Alex Surkov, Steve Faulkner.
19:43:41 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/html-api-map/master/index.html
19:43:53 <davidb> I think Alex could help with "This typically is done in the same way as for ordinary elements that do not have WAI-ARIA attributes present." for managed state stuff.
19:44:13 <joanie> JS: I think (the above URL) is what you're talking about.
19:45:00 <joanie> CS: What it is about... The first bullet has this text
19:45:18 <cyns> this is too vague: "This typically is done in the same way as for ordinary elements that do not have ARIA "
19:45:21 <davidb> (hmmm or maybe Marco)
19:45:24 <cyns> need to define what is typically done
19:45:36 <davidb> agreed
19:45:49 <joanie> JS: So it's not specific to aria-setsize, posinset, level...?
19:45:54 <joanie> CS: Those are the managed states
19:46:00 <joanie> CS: The second piece is
19:46:12 <cyns> 2nd piece is to define what ARIA managed states add/change
19:46:52 <joanie> DB: This is an action?
19:46:57 <joanie> JS: 980 is an action.
19:47:02 <joanie> DB: We assign it maybe?
19:47:11 <joanie> DB: I should talk to Alex and Marco first.
19:48:58 <joanie> JS: I will add a note to the issue for David to discuss this with Alex and Marco and report back.
19:49:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/06-aapi-minutes.html clown
19:50:33 <clown> action-1102?
19:50:33 <trackbot> action-1102 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to [ARIA 1.1] Get someone to look at the SHOULD statements in the Role Mapping table. Can these be changed from "SHOULD be exposed" to "expose as" -- due 2014-05-20 -- OPEN
19:50:33 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1102
19:50:48 <joanie> JS: This is an edit I have to do.
19:51:22 <joanie> JS: There is a list of four things. Exactly what I need to do is written there.
19:51:31 <joanie> JS: I will try to get this done for the heart beat.
19:51:35 <joanie> DB: Makes sense.
19:52:40 <clown> action-1104?
19:52:40 <trackbot> action-1104 -- Cynthia Shelly to Define what the accessibility API mapping is for UIA on aria-describedby in section 5.5.1 table when the element does not exist in the accessibility tree such as when css: display:none applies -- due 2013-09-17 -- OPEN
19:52:41 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1104
19:52:59 <joanie> CS: I may be able to have a conversation about what should be here (wrt the above issue)
19:53:40 <joanie> CS: Let's make it due June 30th.
19:54:08 <clown> action-1263?
19:54:08 <trackbot> action-1263 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to AXARIABusy is probably going to change to something less ARIA-specific, like AXBusy or AXElementBusy -- due 2013-12-02 -- OPEN
19:54:08 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1263
19:54:28 <joanie> JS: I think this is something I can do.
19:54:47 <joanie> JS: It's changing an Apple mapping for aria busy.
19:55:00 <joanie> JS: The forking is done so I can go ahead and do this.
19:55:11 <joanie> JS: I will add a note to the issue.
19:55:33 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
19:55:42 <joanie> JS: And change the due date to two weeks from now.
19:57:15 <Zakim> -David_Bolter
19:57:22 <joanie> Zakim, part
19:57:22 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, Joanie_Diggs, David_Bolter, cyns
19:57:22 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
19:59:27 <joanie> yup
19:59:32 <joanie> didn't know that
19:59:37 <joanie> sorry
19:59:42 <clown> trackbot, stop
19:59:42 <trackbot> Sorry, clown, I don't understand 'trackbot, stop'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
19:59:52 <clown> trackbot, pause
19:59:52 <trackbot> Sorry, clown, I don't understand 'trackbot, pause'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
19:59:52 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop