17:00:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:00:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/05/05-aria-irc
17:00:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
17:00:56 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
17:00:58 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
17:00:58 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM already started
17:00:59 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
17:00:59 <trackbot> Date: 05 May 2014
17:01:06 <janina> agenda?
17:01:11 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:01:12 <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
17:01:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft], ??P14, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:01:20 <Zakim> +Cooper
17:01:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
17:01:45 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
17:01:57 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:01:57 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
17:02:01 <janina> zakim, ??P14 is me
17:02:01 <Zakim> +janina; got it
17:02:08 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:02:08 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:02:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
17:02:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
17:02:42 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa
17:03:14 <chrisgallello> It might be me - I'm joining in to discuss annotations within ARIA
17:03:20 <Zakim> +[Apple]
17:05:29 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #aria
17:06:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014May/0014.html
17:06:43 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:06:50 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014May/0014.html
17:07:08 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
17:07:25 <LJWatson> zakim, [IPcaller] is LJWatson
17:07:25 <Zakim> +LJWatson; got it
17:07:30 <MichaelC> zakim, Microsoft Chris_Gallello
17:07:30 <Zakim> I don't understand 'Microsoft Chris_Gallello', MichaelC
17:07:43 <jcraig> Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:07:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft], janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, [Apple], LJWatson
17:07:46 <Zakim> +Suzann_Keohane
17:07:51 <jcraig> Zakim, Apple has jcraig
17:07:51 <Zakim> +jcraig; got it
17:08:00 <MichaelC> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:08:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft], janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, [Apple], LJWatson, Suzann_Keohane
17:08:03 <Zakim> [Apple] has jcraig
17:08:08 <MichaelC> zakim, Microsoft is Chris_Gallello
17:08:08 <Zakim> +Chris_Gallello; got it
17:08:28 <MichaelC> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:08:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see Chris_Gallello, janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, [Apple], LJWatson, Suzann_Keohane
17:08:30 <Zakim> [Apple] has jcraig
17:09:10 <Susann_Keohane> Susann_Keohane has joined #aria
17:09:43 <Zakim> +Joanie_Diggs
17:10:17 <clown> scribenick: clown
17:10:40 <clown> Topic:  ISSUE-655 Consider annotation roles
17:10:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> ttps://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/655
17:11:02 <clown> CG: I'm on the office online team
17:11:07 <clown> CG:  The problem:
17:11:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/655
17:11:27 <clown> CG:  There are things like comments, footnotes, spelling errors, etc. that we consider to be annotations.
17:11:42 <clown> CG:  We need to mark them up so that a SR can handle them.
17:12:05 <clown> CG:  If you are familiar with MS Word, comments work much the same way with office online.
17:12:30 <clown> CG:  It renders as ancillary text, and  I sighted user can decide whether to read it.
17:12:41 <clown> CG:  Would like similar behaviour in the case of ATs.
17:12:54 <Zakim> + +1.215.286.aaaa
17:12:58 <clown> CG:  There is a link to a position paper in the issue that describes this a bit more.
17:13:09 <clown> CG:  In particular, extensions to aria.
17:13:18 <clown> CG:  Three new aria tags.
17:13:35 <clown> CG:  Aria-annonationtype — a localized name of the annotation type.
17:13:52 <Zakim> + +49.171.205.aabb
17:13:59 <clown> CG:  For example, for a comment, there is the comment text, and then around it is <?>
17:14:15 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
17:14:33 <andrewlarkin> andrewlarkin has joined #aria
17:14:36 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
17:14:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, +1.215 is Andrew Larkin
17:14:55 <Zakim> I don't understand '+1.215 is Andrew Larkin', richardschwerdtfeger
17:15:08 <jamesn> zakim, who is on the call?
17:15:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see Chris_Gallello, janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, [Apple], LJWatson, Suzann_Keohane, Joanie_Diggs, +1.215.286.aaaa,
17:15:09 <MichaelC> zakim, aaaa is Andrew_Larkin
17:15:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, aaaa is Andrew Larkin
17:15:12 <Zakim> ... +49.171.205.aabb, James_Nurthen
17:15:12 <Zakim> [Apple] has jcraig
17:15:12 <Zakim> +Andrew_Larkin; got it
17:15:12 <Zakim> +Stefan_Schnabel
17:15:12 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aaaa is Andrew Larkin', richardschwerdtfeger
17:15:15 <jcraig> Zakim, drop aabb
17:15:15 <Zakim> +49.171.205.aabb is being disconnected
17:15:16 <Zakim> - +49.171.205.aabb
17:15:47 <jcraig> Zakim, who is on the call?
17:15:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see Chris_Gallello, janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, [Apple], LJWatson, Suzann_Keohane, Joanie_Diggs, Andrew_Larkin,
17:15:50 <Zakim> ... James_Nurthen, Stefan_Schnabel
17:15:50 <Zakim> [Apple] has jcraig
17:16:05 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
17:16:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-1.1/states_and_properties#aria-invalid
17:17:41 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
17:17:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/05-aria-minutes.html jamesn
17:17:44 <clown> JC:  The localized annotation name, is something like the localized role name we are currently discussing.
17:17:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:18:07 <clown> CG:  where can I catch up on the work being done on that?
17:18:28 <clown> CG:  That sounds like a way to implement this.
17:18:28 <Zakim> + +49.171.205.aacc
17:18:50 <clown> RS:  We actually use the "grammar" and "spelling" for each of the text elements.
17:19:01 <jamesn> q?
17:19:02 <clown> RS:  It was working fine, but you are seeing limitations?
17:19:03 <jamesn> q+
17:19:13 <clown> CG:  Yes, but we should check it again.
17:19:32 <clown> RS:  A problem is that some AT vendors have not modified their code given the recent updates.
17:20:02 <clown> CG:  The other two proposed tags also mark up the connection the text and its annotation.
17:20:20 <clown> CG:  You can think of these tags like aria-desribedby.
17:20:37 <clown> CG:  aria-annotatedby would identify the comment div on the page.
17:20:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> s/aria-desribedby/aria-describedby/
17:20:54 <jcraig> q+
17:21:08 <clown> CG:  And, in order to go backwards, there is aria-annotatedfor to list the IDs.
17:21:17 <clown> BG:  Is this like aria-flowto?
17:21:32 <clown> CG:  Flowto is more for "go read this next".
17:21:48 <clown> CG:  This is more as a way of calling out that there is an annotaion here.
17:21:59 <clown> JN:  We use describedby for lists, but it's not perfect.
17:22:30 <jcraig> ack jamesn
17:22:45 <clown> JN: To cover excel to cover the extra info that can be stored on the cell.
17:23:01 <jcraig> Zakim, aacc is Marco
17:23:01 <Zakim> +Marco; got it
17:23:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:23:24 <clown> MZ:  I wanted to comment on the annotedby and annotedfor.
17:23:26 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen.a
17:23:35 <clown> MZ:  Does it need to be both ways?
17:23:37 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
17:23:42 <jcraig> q- (I was going to say the same thing)
17:23:49 <jcraig> q-
17:23:53 <clown> MZ:  FF creates the reverse relation for things like describedby.
17:24:02 <jcraig> ack +49
17:24:10 <clown> MZ:  Can't we make the job on authors easiers.
17:24:17 <clown> RS:  I think we should do just one.
17:24:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:24:28 <clown> JC:  I prefere the "by" and not the "for".
17:24:28 <jcraig> ack me
17:24:31 <jcraig> q+
17:24:57 <clown> MZ:  I spoke to some people in the Windows team about flowsto and they wanted to create a flowsfrom
17:25:16 <clown> MZ:  And they found it easier if there was only one direction.
17:25:36 <clown> JC:  Did they say what the problem is if the reverse does not match up?
17:25:42 <clown> MZ:  No.
17:26:02 <clown> JC:  That is part of the discussion.  To get references in sync.
17:26:11 <clown> JC:  It's easier if it's just one direction.
17:26:31 <jamesn> +1 to that
17:26:42 <clown> RS:  Let's summarize where we have agreement.  Is "by" preferred to "from"?
17:26:49 <clown> <someone>:  agreed.
17:26:59 <clown> JC: I had some questions on the examples.
17:27:07 <clown> CG:  Which example?
17:27:16 <clown> JC:  The one called basic example.
17:27:30 <clown> JC:  There are no roles in either scenario.
17:27:44 <clown> JC:  The first one makes sesnse since it is just text.
17:28:02 <clown> JC:  But the the other one might need a role, with a description of it being a deletion.
17:28:24 <clown> JC:  The screen reader could detect the annotation type by a refereence to the annotation.
17:28:45 <jcraig> ack me
17:28:56 <clown> CG:  There are times with annotation where the text is not in the DOM.
17:29:06 <clown> JC:  Do you have an example.
17:29:19 <clown> CG:  If the comments pane is not shown, we remove it from the DOM.
17:29:29 <clown> CG:  Perhaps we should have it in the DOM, but marked hidden.
17:29:35 <clown> RS:  That makes sense.
17:30:12 <jamesn> q+ to say we have that
17:30:17 <clown> JC:  Do we need an IndieUI action to ?
17:30:28 <clown> JC:  To indicate that the user wants to see this now.
17:30:59 <clown> CG: That fits with my thoughts do we need to create something else for hidden annotations.
17:32:06 <jcraig> q+
17:32:15 <jamesn> ack me
17:32:15 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to say we have that
17:32:26 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
17:32:39 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:32:39 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
17:32:44 <jcraig> q+ to say we should be careful not to conflate the API with UI
17:32:51 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:32:51 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:33:16 <clown> CG: Is there something similar to an invoke action?
17:33:33 <clown> JC:  There is something similar going on in the IndieUI WG.
17:34:03 <clown> JC: Does a click on a link activate the link?  Or the annotation associated with it?
17:34:15 <clown> CG:  Clicking the link opens up the new page.
17:34:34 <clown> JC:  Is it like a contextual menu?
17:34:48 <jcraig> ack me
17:34:48 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say we should be careful not to conflate the API with UI
17:34:50 <clown> JC:  That might be sufficiently covered.
17:35:18 <clown> JC: We need to not confuse the UI with the API we are developing.
17:35:53 <clown> JC:  We may be situations where the user wants to hear the entirety of an addition, but only just that things have been deletions.
17:36:08 <clown> JC:  But we want the API supports all of these scenerios.
17:36:28 <clown> MZ:  I agree with that, and it could be controlled by the screen reader's verbosity settings.
17:36:43 <clown> MZ: It's the user's choice or the ATs how to present it.
17:36:58 <clown> MZ: But we want the information on hand to decide that.
17:37:02 <clown> RS:  right.
17:37:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:37:32 <clown> MZ:  I think the filtering should be done by the screen reader, not the web app.
17:38:07 <clown> JC:  But, in the case that Chris is describing, there may be reasons why the comments are not in the DOM — performance reasons.
17:38:32 <clown> CG:  what you bring up about lazy loading — that affects the web app in general.
17:38:42 <clown> CG:  And we need to account for lazy loading in general.
17:39:23 <clown> RS:  we also have to think about validation tools.
17:39:34 <clown> RS:  If you have an annotation reference, you have to deal with that issues.
17:40:10 <clown> JC:  If there's an idref but it's not yet loaded, you can't say that's an error.
17:40:18 <clown> RS:  Is busy involved here somehow?
17:40:38 <clown> RS:  We can have something in the annotation that says it's not loaded, and that might handle it.
17:41:05 <clown> RS: And, also, let the user load the comment on demand.
17:41:28 <clown> JC:  Marco's proposal to have all the notes in the DOM makes things easier for the UA and that AT.
17:41:54 <clown> JC:  But, Chris, you should take these thoughts back and see where performance in a real issue.
17:42:23 <clown> CG:  If we load the comment pane, but mark it with aria-hidden, would that be a solution?
17:42:31 <clown> JC:  That would do.
17:43:03 <clown> JN:  We need to couple the situation where the info is not there, until it is requested and then see how the load affects things.
17:43:30 <clown> RS:  Worry:  why have the SR user have access to the comments but the sighted user not?
17:43:45 <clown> CG:  We can have a gesture where the sighted user opens the comment pane to view it.
17:44:10 <clown> MZ:  The reason we did this in JAWS because the sighted user could use mouse hove to get the comment.
17:44:51 <clown> CG:  Let's leave this open, and I'll take this back to the team, and can we discuss on list.
17:45:01 <clown> JC:  Keep the discussion on the list, please.
17:45:12 <jcraig> q?
17:45:41 <clown> JC:  In the discussion topic section, there is noted annotation types:  comment, spelling error, etc.
17:46:23 <clown> JC:  These seem something like we should tokenize and include as roles or annotationtype as an enumerated type rather than a localized string.
17:46:35 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:46:36 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
17:46:52 <clown> JC:  Because of the scenario where the annoation is not in the DOM, then it's harder
17:47:09 <cyns> been trying to get though on the phone, and conf is full.  anything we can do abt that?
17:47:14 <clown> JC:  The localization can be done by the user agent or the AT.
17:47:36 <clown> q+ to note that cyns cannot get on the call.
17:47:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:47:53 <clown> CG:  we don't know what the other types are going to be.
17:48:07 <clown> CG:  My concern that a tokenized list is too constrictive.
17:48:34 <clown> JC:  But, the problem is there are different scenarios such as where the user wants to hear all the comments.
17:48:49 <clown> CG:  Are you suggesting different types of annotation?
17:49:12 <clown> JC:  Partly, but a screen reader can't tell from the localized string what the type is.
17:49:25 <clown> JC:  But a token would solve that.
17:49:45 <jcraig> q+ to suggest vendor-prefixed token values
17:49:55 <jcraig> ack jos
17:50:00 <jcraig> ack clown
17:50:00 <Zakim> clown, you wanted to note that cyns cannot get on the call.
17:50:20 <Zakim> -Cooper
17:50:34 <clown> LJW:  That's very important from a user's perspective to be able to turn different types of comments on and off.
17:50:39 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
17:51:16 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
17:51:18 <clown> RS:  Chris, are you going to take this back to the team, and revisit next week?
17:51:19 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
17:51:25 <Zakim> +Cooper
17:51:27 <clown> CG:  Sure.
17:51:36 <clown> CG:  One more issue.
17:51:39 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
17:51:51 <clown> CG:  If you have overlapping annotations like a comment and an enclosed footnote.
17:52:05 <clown> CG: Or just two comments.  How is that marked up?
17:52:38 <clown> CG:  So there is a programmatic way to note that the overlap and how they both are associated with the same span.
17:52:54 <clown> CG:   We could discuss this on the list.
17:53:15 <clown> CG:  <description of how it is done now>
17:53:21 <jcraig> q+
17:53:53 <clown> CG:  It's all written up in the document.
17:53:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack jcraig
17:53:58 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to suggest vendor-prefixed token values and to
17:54:22 <clown> JC:  <describes how it might be done programmatically>
17:54:56 <clown> CG:  You might need two annotatedbys and which goes with which.
17:55:26 <clown> CG:  Is the suggestion that annotatedby has a list of IDREFs?
17:56:02 <clown> CG:  What is described in the doc is not for overlapping annotations.
17:56:10 <clown> CG:  But that is something to consider.
17:56:49 <clown> CG/JC:  <more discussion of how overlapping comments might be handled>
17:58:20 <clown> CG:  a concern is if there are say 3 different annotations on a span, there should be a way to jump to the different types, say the spelling error.
17:58:36 <clown> JC:  And that keyboard shortcut would depend on?
17:59:03 <clown> CG:  If the screen reader can recognize error and comment differently, then you can have different ways to get at them.
17:59:30 <clown> JC:  The only problem if there are two comments about the same bit of text, or the same annotation type.
17:59:30 <jcraig> q?
17:59:45 <clown> CG:  The sighted user could tell by visual cues.
17:59:51 <jcraig> q+ you wanted to suggest vendor-prefixed token values and to
17:59:59 <jcraig> q+ to suggest vendor-prefixed token values and to
18:00:09 <clown> CG:  I like these thoughts, and we can contiue on list.
18:00:37 <clown> RS:  When we have a design we can meet with the AT vendors.
18:01:27 <jgunder_> jgunder_ has joined #aria
18:02:26 <Zakim> -Suzann_Keohane
18:02:26 <clown> CG:  maybe we should revisit this in two weeks time?
18:02:32 <jcraig> ack me
18:02:32 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to suggest vendor-prefixed token values and to
18:02:55 <jgunder_> Telephone bridge is full, won't let me on
18:03:28 <clown> JC:  Regarding extensibility of tokens, some enumerations are set up to be extensible.
18:03:56 <clown> JC:  See aria-invalid.  Besides the specified tokens, any other string is regarded as "true".
18:04:16 <clown> JC:  And we could include vendor prefixed tokens.
18:04:39 <clown> JC:  Something aria-invalid="MS:notelink".
18:05:02 <clown> JC:  We could do something similar for the annotation types.
18:05:10 <clown> MZ:  I like the conccpt.
18:05:27 <clown> JN:  I don't.  Vendors means anyone?  Or ATs in the field?
18:05:35 <clown> JC:  It's a slippery slope.
18:05:45 <clown> JC:  It's technically valid now.
18:06:03 <clown> JC:  The worry is AT vendors will lock into these extra tokens.
18:06:20 <clown> JN:  Why not put the tokens in ARIA 1.1.  Why not solve the problem?
18:06:39 <clown> JN:  Say that this is most like the other ones, rather than just "true".
18:07:01 <clown> JN:  Just like we have with roles:  use the first recognized one.
18:07:43 <clown> JN:  aria-invalid is weird since you can state that something is invalid without saying what the error is.
18:08:34 <clown> JN:  Let's not make the same mistake with annotations.
18:09:15 <clown> RS:  Let's wrap, and plan on having Chris back in a week or two.
18:09:16 <Zakim> -Chris_Gallello
18:09:43 <clown> Topic::  Meeting time.
18:10:11 <clown> RS:  Marco, we got a number of west coasters to attend given this meeting time.
18:10:20 <clown> RS:  So, it's difficult to move the meeting time.
18:10:45 <clown> MZ:  My conflict is the Mozilla product wide meeting, starting at 1:30 pm EDT.
18:11:16 <clown> MZ:  And it lasts as long as there are topics.
18:11:30 <clown> JC:  We can arrange that your topics are at the beginning of this call.
18:11:35 <clown> MZ:  That will help.
18:11:49 <clown> RS:  Difficult to reschedule.
18:12:06 <clown> RS:  Send me a note at what you want discussed, and we will do it first.
18:12:23 <jcraig> Zakim, who is on the call?
18:12:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cooper, Bryan_Garaventa, [Apple], LJWatson, Joanie_Diggs, Andrew_Larkin, Stefan_Schnabel, Marco, James_Nurthen.a,
18:12:23 <clown> Topic:  ISSUE-606
18:12:26 <Zakim> ... Joseph_Scheuhammer.a, Cynthia_Shelly
18:12:26 <Zakim> [Apple] has jcraig
18:12:28 <clown> issue-606?
18:12:28 <trackbot> issue-606 -- grid role does not allow aria-setsize or aria-posinset -- open
18:12:28 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/606
18:12:49 <clown> RS:  what is the use case, James?
18:13:03 <clown> JC:  This might have been brought up by Dominic.
18:13:28 <clown> RS:  You could have multiple grids in a row.
18:13:36 <clown> JC:  That doesn't not sound right.
18:13:48 <clown> JC:  I think this was on the descendant nodes.
18:14:13 <clown> JN:  rows and columns would be handy, but I thought that was ARIA 2.0
18:14:18 <clown> RS:  we have rows now.
18:14:23 <jcraig> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pfwg/raw-file/tip/ARIA/1.0/tests/test-files/roles-properties-supported/roles-properties-supported-grid-aria-level-1.html
18:14:26 <clown> JN:  we could put it on cells.
18:15:10 <clown> RS:  This is the inherited.
18:15:19 <Zakim> -Marco
18:15:23 <clown> JC:  I think this is an invalid issues, and a bad example.
18:15:30 <clown> JC:  Remove it from the test suite.
18:16:17 <clown> RS:  This was specifically for a grid.  We should be correct the example.
18:16:33 <clown> RS:  I can see the value of putting it on rows and cells.
18:17:06 <clown> JC:  We should make an action for someone to remove or fix the test file.
18:17:22 <clown> RS:  Michael, could you correct this one in the test suite?
18:17:30 <jcraig> From the validator:
18:17:30 <jcraig> "https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pfwg/raw-file/tip/ARIA/1.0/tests/test-files/roles-properties-supported/roles-properties-supported-grid-aria-level-1.html":8:83: error: Attribute “aria-setsize” not allowed on element “div” in this context.
18:17:31 <jcraig> "https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pfwg/raw-file/tip/ARIA/1.0/tests/test-files/roles-properties-supported/roles-properties-supported-grid-aria-level-1.html":8:83: error: Attribute “aria-posinset” not allowed on element “div” in this context.
18:17:34 <clown> JC:  Here is the validator error.
18:17:39 <jcraig> action to fix examples
18:17:39 <trackbot> Error finding 'to'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
18:18:20 <clown> RS/JC:  We want someone to look at the test cases and see if the tests are valid, and fix as necessary.
18:18:30 <clown> MC:  That I can do with a query.
18:19:02 <clown> RS:  I'm looking at the row role, and there is no posinset on it.
18:19:58 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-1.1/states_and_properties#aria-setsize
18:20:09 <MichaelC> Testcase 178
18:20:38 <clown> MC:  I see only one test file, James.  Are there more?
18:20:45 <clown> JC:  Possibly...
18:20:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#row
18:21:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#gridcell
18:21:23 <clown> JC:  Check test cases on either side, perhaps.
18:21:56 <clown> JC:  I think this is the real issue, but referencing the test case was not correct.
18:22:30 <clown> JC:  If it's on row, it's vertical, and on column it's horizontal.  It's like rowindex and colindex.
18:22:52 <clown> JC:  I'm not sure we want to add this to row and columns.
18:23:10 <jcraig> s/on column/on gridcell/
18:24:08 <clown> JN:  it's a problem when it's both horizontal and vertical.
18:24:32 <clown> RS:  So, can you take an action to fix the test cases, Michael?
18:24:48 <clown> MC:  I don't know what the fix is.
18:25:08 <clown> JC:  And the fix depends on the disposition of these other issues.
18:25:16 <clown> RS:  Do we need this now?
18:25:19 <jcraig> related to issue-398
18:25:27 <jcraig> issue-398?
18:25:27 <trackbot> issue-398 -- Errata: aria-setsize and aria-posinset should apply to more than just listitem and option -- open
18:25:27 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/398
18:25:45 <clown> JN:  We end up not using gridcell since it doesn't work, and we end up using labels to make things work.
18:26:04 <jcraig> action-1293?
18:26:04 <trackbot> action-1293 -- James Craig to Add aria-colindex to role gridcell and aria-rowindex to role row -- due 2013-11-11 -- OPEN
18:26:04 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1293
18:26:07 <clown> JC:  I do have an action to add colindex and row index.
18:26:26 <clown> JC:  We could bump that to 1.1
18:27:04 <clown> RS:  We could be rowindex on the row, and the cell inherit it.
18:27:23 <clown> JN:  How would these indices work?
18:27:41 <clown> JC:  It disambiguates the meaning of setsize and poinset
18:27:59 <clown> JN:  I guess it helps, but I'm not sure it's necessary.
18:28:10 <clown> JN:  It only disambiguates one.
18:28:22 <clown> JC:  It diambiguates both since it's rowindex and colindex.
18:28:27 <jcraig> Dominic Mazzoni, "I'd prefer if we added aria-colindex and aria-rowindex attributes, rather than reuse aria-posinset to mean row index when there's no equivalent for col index."
18:28:45 <clown> JN:  Okay, I'm good.
18:28:56 <clown> RS:  Would it help if moved to 1.1?
18:29:02 <clown> JN:  It would help.
18:29:18 <jcraig> action-1309?
18:29:18 <trackbot> action-1309 -- Cynthia Shelly to Determine the best place to map aria-colindex and aria-rowindex for msaa+uiexpress and uia. -- due 2014-01-31 -- OPEN
18:29:18 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1309
18:29:25 <clown> JC:  Cynthia, you also have an action.
18:29:40 <clown> CS:  I can take a look at it.
18:29:41 <Zakim> -LJWatson
18:29:47 <clown> CS:  What is the due date?
18:30:07 <clown> RS:  Colindex was a due date of November 2013.
18:30:18 <clown> RS:  Do you want to change it, James?
18:30:27 <clown> RS:  For a heartbeat draft?
18:30:39 <clown> JC:  I want as much in the hearbeat draft as possible.
18:31:00 <clown> RS:  Can we make this a 1.1.?
18:31:02 <clown> JC:  Done.
18:31:08 <jamesn> thanks
18:31:14 <clown> RS:  Can you look for other holes, James N?
18:31:19 <clown> JN:  Yes.
18:31:31 <clown> JC:  Can we close the issue?
18:31:58 <clown> JC:  We can close 398 and 606
18:32:38 <clown> JC:  I can update the example as I make the spec changes.
18:32:58 <clown> RS: Anything else?
18:33:03 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
18:33:04 <Zakim> -Bryan_Garaventa
18:33:04 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
18:33:05 <Zakim> -Andrew_Larkin
18:33:06 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen.a
18:33:07 <Zakim> -Joanie_Diggs
18:33:07 <Zakim> -janina
18:33:08 <Zakim> -[Apple]
18:33:10 <Zakim> -Cooper
18:33:30 <Zakim> -Stefan_Schnabel
18:33:37 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'pause', clown.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:38:11 <clown> s/row index/rowindex/
18:38:14 <clown> rrsagent, make minutes
18:38:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/05-aria-minutes.html clown
18:38:41 <clown> zakim, please part
18:38:41 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer, janina, Bryan_Garaventa, LJWatson, Suzann_Keohane, jcraig, Chris_Gallello,
18:38:41 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
18:38:44 <Zakim> ... Joanie_Diggs, +1.215.286.aaaa, +49.171.205.aabb, James_Nurthen, Andrew_Larkin, Stefan_Schnabel, +49.171.205.aacc, Marco, Cynthia_Shelly
18:38:50 <clown> rrsagent, make minutes
18:38:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/05-aria-minutes.html clown
18:42:43 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'pause', clown.  Try /msg RRSAgent help