14:46:31 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:46:31 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/24-html-a11y-irc
14:46:33 RRSAgent, make logs world
14:46:35 Zakim, this will be 2119
14:46:35 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 46 minutes ago
14:46:36 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:46:36 Date: 24 April 2014
14:46:48 Meeting: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference
14:46:48 Chair: Janina
14:46:48 agenda+ Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
14:46:51 agenda+ Alt Guidance & Next Steps http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2014Apr/0062.html
14:46:54 agenda+ Longdesc CfC [See Below]
14:46:56 agenda+ Canvas 2D Status & Next Steps [See Below]
14:46:59 agenda+ Bug Triage [see below]
14:47:01 agenda+ Table Summary Issues Redux
14:47:04 agenda+ Our HTML 5.1 Objectives [See Below]
14:47:06 agenda+ Other Business
14:47:09 agenda+ Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
14:47:12 agenda+ be done
14:48:15 zakim, next item
14:48:15 agendum 1. "Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List" taken up [from janina]
14:55:00 SuzanneT has joined #html-a11y
14:55:47 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has now started
14:55:54 +??P25
14:56:00 zakim, ??P25 is me
14:56:00 +janina; got it
14:56:08 zakim, mute me
14:56:08 sorry, janina, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
14:56:14 jgunder_ has joined #html-a11y
14:56:24 http://fae20-dev.cita.illinois.edu/all-pages/1458e3b98b6fd0a8/page/1/rc/1/
14:57:25 +Mark_Sadecki
14:57:29 BillyGregory has joined #html-a11y
14:58:19 zakim, who is on the phone?
14:58:19 On the phone I see janina, Mark_Sadecki
14:59:58 aardrian has joined #html-a11y
15:00:02 +[IPcaller]
15:00:03 +Adrian_Roselli
15:00:23 zakim, who is here?
15:00:23 On the phone I see janina, Mark_Sadecki, [IPcaller], Adrian_Roselli
15:00:25 On IRC I see aardrian, BillyGregory, jgunder_, SuzanneT, RRSAgent, IanPouncey, janina, MarkS, Zakim, trackbot, sivoais_, hober, cabanier
15:00:31 rubys has joined #html-a11y
15:01:23 +[IPcaller.a]
15:01:35 Zakim, IPcaller.a is me
15:01:35 +IanPouncey; got it
15:02:06 +Sam
15:02:17 +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:02:25 +[IPcaller.a]
15:02:33 zakim, [IPcaller] is BillyGregory
15:02:33 +BillyGregory; got it
15:03:09 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #html-a11y
15:03:14 zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:14 On the phone I see janina, Mark_Sadecki, BillyGregory, Adrian_Roselli, IanPouncey, Sam, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, [IPcaller.a]
15:03:44 LJWatson has joined #html-a11y
15:04:03 zakim, [IPCaller] is LJWatson
15:04:03 sorry, LJWatson, I do not recognize a party named '[IPCaller]'
15:04:09 scribe: aardrian
15:04:43 zakim, [IPCaller] is LJWatson
15:04:43 sorry, LJWatson, I do not recognize a party named '[IPCaller]'
15:04:44 zakim, IPcaller.a is LJWatson
15:04:44 +LJWatson; got it
15:05:36 zakim, next item
15:05:36 agendum 2. "Alt Guidance & Next Steps http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2014Apr/0062.html" taken up [from janina]
15:06:11 JS: I think we are closing on remaining tweaks to SF's guidance doc before asking HTMLWG to move it forward as a Note.
15:06:16 -> http://rawgit.com/w3c/alt-techniques/master/index.html New Draft of Standalone ALT guidance
15:06:24 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2014Apr/0063.html Feedback from David MacDonald
15:06:33 JS: SF announced changes on list, got feedback from two people not on call today.
15:06:57 JS: We believe language is good as is, dno't believe anything left to do in spec guidance itself...
15:07:18 JS: But there are some tweaks in the Using Alt document.
15:07:28 JS: Please look at it so we can close on it ASAP.
15:08:13 LW: Tangentially related, DM has identified bugs against alt text doc and HTML5 spec.
15:08:39 JS: SF asked DM to take comments into Bugzilla, was not aware also filed against spec.
15:08:43 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25404
15:09:14 zakim, next item
15:09:14 agendum 6. "Table Summary Issues Redux" taken up [from janina]
15:09:34 zakim, take up item 3
15:09:34 agendum 3. "Longdesc CfC" taken up [from See Below via janina]
15:09:48 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2014Apr/0072.html Results of Longdesc Exit Criteria CfC (passes)
15:09:48 +Suzanne_Taylor
15:10:07 MS: That is a link to results of CR Exit Criteria.
15:10:39 JS: Chaals suggesting both parent working groups sign off on this, I will take up in PF.
15:10:45 JS: Don't expect any surprises.
15:11:21 +David_MacDonald
15:11:26 MS: Our Exit Criteria mirror HTMLWG Exit Criteria, don't expect any problems, will start necessary documentation.
15:12:16 JS: One clarification I made to Paul, so no one is surprised...
15:12:55 David_ has joined #html-a11y
15:13:08 JS: When looking at HTML criteria for sufficiency of implementation, most support is in AT, not necessarily in browsers.
15:13:31 JS: Success of good service delivery relies on AT implementation, not just UA support.
15:13:37 +[IPcaller]
15:14:00 zakim, IPcaller is SteveF
15:14:00 +SteveF; got it
15:14:04 zakim, take up item 2
15:14:04 agendum 2. "Alt Guidance & Next Steps http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2014Apr/0062.html" taken up [from janina]
15:14:23 SteveF has joined #html-a11y
15:15:17 DM: No longdesc in Alt Guidance, so issue of discoverability.
15:15:35 DM: There should be some reference in the alt text for where to find the longdesc when not programmatically associated.
15:16:08 SF: I'll review it; sounds reasonable.
15:16:32 q+
15:16:35 -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25404 Bugs from David
15:17:12 ack j
15:17:18 JS: Just want to note that references to geography on the screen may not be a good fit.
15:17:41 SF: May suggest a method to identify a relationship, such as a grouping container.
15:17:52 q+
15:17:53 q?
15:17:59 ack a
15:18:04 q+
15:18:17 AR: in know ARIA is a different spec, but should we reference ARIA?
15:18:50 ...in the ALT document, referencing a long description. Should there be a link out to ARIA to how to programatically associate it
15:20:05 SF: The standalone doc is now in parity with the HTML5 ALT guidance. In the HTML spec, it does talk about using ARIA roles,so that might work as well.
15:20:33 JS: Because this is a recent addition to the spec languge, we requested a landing page pointer from the spec.
15:21:21 JS: The point of the landing page is because we are expecting all sorts of additional related documentation.
15:21:23 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/embedded-content.html#alt
15:22:14 updated alt guidance http://rawgit.com/w3c/alt-techniques/master/index.html
15:22:45 SF: Also note that the same text is in the updated Alt document.
15:23:29 SF: At this point, broken links aren't a worry, but instead substantive changes.
15:23:30 ack d
15:23:31 ack d
15:24:02 -LJWatson
15:24:06 DM: I agree on concern over screen position, but think screen readers are savvy enough to handle above/below at least?
15:24:27 DM: We've been toying with requiring a label on items with roles.
15:25:07 DM: My other bug items were only in the Alt Text Guidance, not the HTML doc.
15:25:43 +[IPcaller]
15:26:04 SF: This is about how much text should go in an alt attribute.
15:26:14 DM: Versus when you transition to a longdesc.
15:26:45 JS: When we put up a specific number, we have issues from members.
15:27:32 SF: Structured text, foreign words, etc. probably aren't a fit for alt.
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15:27:44 q+
15:27:51 SF: The alt becomes the accessible name that gets announced.
15:27:56 DM: Agree.
15:28:21 q?
15:28:36 ack l
15:29:06 LW: Guidance around the number of sentences, around 25 words, might be good.
15:29:29 s/number of sentences/number of words in a sentence/
15:29:38 SF: If you have information to provide back-up for those notes, let me know.
15:30:21 DM: The example with the lamp is 107 words.
15:30:27 JS: I think we objected to that as too long.
15:30:34 SF: I think that's not in there anymore.
15:31:34 DM: I would stand behind a couple sentences as a limit.
15:32:25 JS: I think we're ending up with a good spec.
15:32:40 rubys has joined #html-a11y
15:32:56 JS: Reminder, HTML is looking to move forward to CR, so we need to wrap this up.
15:33:03 zakim, take up item 3
15:33:03 agendum 3. "Longdesc CfC" taken up [from See Below via janina]
15:33:15 zakim, take up item 4
15:33:15 agendum 4. "Canvas 2D Status & Next Steps" taken up [from See Below via janina]
15:33:16 zakim, close item 3
15:33:17 agendum 3, Longdesc CfC, closed
15:33:17 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:33:17 6. Table Summary Issues Redux [from janina]
15:33:48 MS: A note to be added to address hit targeting versus WG spec.
15:33:54 MS: I drafted that and added it.
15:34:03 MS: Informed HTML editors the spec is ready to go to LC.
15:34:15 MS: Announced to list that we are available for any questions.
15:34:33 MS: Told them we'd also be available on the call, received no question on-list or on the call.
15:34:46 MS: Hoping we are getting a stable LC version of Canvas ready.
15:34:56 +John_Foliot
15:35:16 RS: We may want to point out that even though it deviates from WHATWG spec, is designed to allow us to migrate to that spec...
15:35:33 RS: in regards to hit testing, to prevent things from breaking.
15:35:36 JF has joined #html-a11y
15:35:39 MS: For mouse events or all work?
15:35:42 RS: Mouse events.
15:36:02 MS: Is it possible they may think our approach is sound/better and may change the WHATWG spec.
15:36:33 r/Is it/It is
15:36:44 RS: I am suggesting a note to clarify this.
15:37:14 MS: Our note has considered Canvas Level 2, stating that we've made it to be forward-compatible should be sufficient.
15:37:17 RS: Ok.
15:37:37 s/Is it/It is
15:37:58 MS: Do you think this would be better in the document status or right in the Hit Regions section?
15:38:18 SR: A note is fine, but maybe don't say "compatible."
15:38:37 s/compatible/compatible with WHATWG/
15:38:52 SF: Suggest a note pointing to appropriate spec.
15:39:09 MS: Have a note pointing to WHATWG spec, may want to point to our own Level 2 spec.
15:40:01 zakim, next item
15:40:01 agendum 6. "Table Summary Issues Redux" taken up [from janina]
15:40:16 zakim, take up item 5
15:40:16 agendum 5. "Bug Triage" taken up [from see below via janina]
15:41:00 LW: We had a brief call. Looking at moving the meeting time to avoid conflicts.
15:41:25 q+
15:41:27 LW: Pretty quiet at the moment. Have processed all outstanding 5.0 bugs. Several assigned to different TFs, though.
15:42:05 LW: ARIA, Media sub-teams, some individuals.
15:42:06 -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Current_Bug_Triage_Issues Current a11y Bugs
15:42:13 ack m
15:42:29 MS: I think last week we talked about pinging SF on 24679.
15:42:37 LW: Did that, re-opened against 5.1.
15:44:16 [discussion of Media Sub-Team meeting times]
15:44:35 Joshue has joined #html-a11y
15:44:38 Josh Meille and Owen Evans of Smith-Kettelwell (sp)
15:45:09 both have expressed a willingness to work with mEDIA SUB-TEAM
15:46:36 JS: [Media Sub-Team] looking to create content with all different media types, add-ons.
15:46:58 JS: [Media Sub-Team] Captions, sign language, etc. so someone has examples for testing in UAs and AT.
15:47:05 zakim, next item
15:47:05 agendum 6. "Table Summary Issues Redux" taken up [from janina]
15:47:42 JS: This has been popping up since CSUN. Any updates?
15:47:45 Q+
15:47:59 MS: I think next step is to draft guidance for creating accessible table descriptions.
15:48:14 MS: I know DM has run tests on current support, looking for anyone else to help.
15:48:45 DM: I think we have to lobby Freedom Scientific to allow aria-describedby on .
15:49:07 DM: This would apply to the overall table, not just within a specific cell.
15:49:22 JS: Hearing vendor discussion, but what about changing in the spec? Timing is an issue.
15:49:22 ack j
15:49:25 q+
15:50:02 JF: My recollection is that letting summary go, LW and I were supposed to draft techniques for WCAG Techniques.
15:50:27 JF: There a couple ways we can provided a summary outside of ARIA. Sporadic support in the HTML5 spec.
15:50:29 ack m
15:50:31 ack JF
15:50:50 MS: That was the gist, yes. My proposal to DM is that we draft the example text for HTML5.
15:51:09 MS: That section will have to be changed as details/summary are unlikely to make it into HTML5.
15:51:23 MS: During HTMLWG F2F consensus is it won't make it.
15:51:27 JS: What about 5.1?
15:51:31 MS: It's possible.
15:51:44 MS: But we need some examples in 5.0 to describe a table.
15:51:57 MS: John, David, Leonie and I should get together.
15:51:58 q+
15:52:21 JS: I caution the group about time-sensitive edits are on the HTML spec, the other docs are on their own schedules.
15:52:35 JS: So changes to HTML5 should be a primary focus given the closing window of time.
15:52:40 JS: Soon. Very soon.
15:53:12 rrsagent make minutes
15:54:42 -> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/CR/tabular-data.html#table-descriptions-techniques Describing a Table
15:55:07 MS: This is what we need to replace.
15:55:28 JS: Worth pointing to this on the HTMLWG list as a heads-up.
15:56:13 zakim, next item
15:56:13 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, aardrian
15:56:22 q?
15:56:26 ack s
15:56:29 zakim, next item
15:56:30 agendum 7. "Our HTML 5.1 Objectives" taken up [from See Below]
15:57:08 -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/51wishlist Wishlist for 5.1 Wiki
15:57:19 JS: Not much time today, but we need to get focusing on 5.1.
15:57:22 q+
15:57:35 JS: LC for 5.1 isn't that far in the future.
15:57:54 JS: Look at the wiki, see where you want to do some work.
15:58:30 ack m
15:58:37 MS: Added one more thing to wishlist after PF editors call.
15:58:48 MS: Frustration with linking terms to definitions.
15:59:29 -[IPcaller]
15:59:34 -IanPouncey
15:59:34 -BillyGregory
15:59:41 rrsagent, make minutes
15:59:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/24-html-a11y-minutes.html aardrian
16:00:02 -John_Foliot
16:00:03 -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:00:05 -Sam
16:00:09 -David_MacDonald
16:00:14 -Suzanne_Taylor
16:00:17 -SteveF
16:00:40 zakim, bye
16:00:40 leaving. As of this point the attendees were janina, Mark_Sadecki, Adrian_Roselli, IanPouncey, Sam, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, BillyGregory, LJWatson, Suzanne_Taylor, David_MacDonald,
16:00:40 Zakim has left #html-a11y
16:00:48 rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/24-html-a11y-minutes.html aardrian
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17:11:32