11:47:40 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #csvw
11:47:40 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/23-csvw-irc
11:47:42 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
11:47:42 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #csvw
11:47:44 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be CSVW
11:47:44 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
11:47:45 <trackbot> Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference
11:47:45 <trackbot> Date: 23 April 2014
11:49:29 <ivan> Meeting: CSV on the Web WG Conference Call
11:49:33 <ivan> Chair: Jeni
11:50:02 <ivan> Regrets: Phil, Stasinos, Davide, Yakov
11:51:07 <ivan> Regrets+ DanBri
11:51:20 <ivan> -> https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-04-23 Meeting agenda
11:58:01 <jtandy> jtandy has joined #csvw
11:59:02 <JeniT> JeniT has joined #csvw
11:59:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
11:59:27 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be CSVW
11:59:27 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
11:59:28 <trackbot> Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference
11:59:28 <trackbot> Date: 23 April 2014
11:59:46 <Zakim> DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has now started
11:59:53 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
11:59:58 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
11:59:58 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
11:59:59 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
11:59:59 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
12:00:00 <Zakim> +Ivan
12:00:07 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
12:00:47 <Zakim> + +44.777.586.aaaa
12:00:59 <jtandy> zakim, aaaa is me
12:01:00 <Zakim> +jtandy; got it
12:01:39 <DavideCeolin> DavideCeolin has joined #csvw
12:01:47 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:01:47 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:02:04 <Zakim> +??P9
12:02:14 <DavideCeolin> zakim, ??P9 is me
12:02:14 <Zakim> +DavideCeolin; got it
12:02:21 <andimou> andimou has joined #csvw
12:02:33 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:02:33 <Zakim> jtandy should no longer be muted
12:03:56 <Zakim> +??P12
12:04:13 <Zakim> + +1.509.554.aabb
12:04:18 <ericstephan> ericstephan has joined #csvw
12:04:54 <jumbrich> jumbrich has joined #csvw
12:05:03 <ivan> zakim, ??P12 is jumbrich
12:05:03 <Zakim> +jumbrich; got it
12:05:15 <JeniT> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-04-23
12:05:17 <JeniT> Chair: JeniT
12:05:21 <rgrp> rgrp has joined #csvw
12:05:24 <rgrp> hi there
12:05:27 <rgrp> sorry i'm late!
12:05:33 <rgrp> i can't join phone but can do irc :-)
12:06:05 <JeniT> Topic: approving minutes
12:06:07 <Zakim> +[Ugent]
12:06:11 <JeniT> http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-csvw-minutes.html
12:06:31 <JeniT> RESOLVED: minutes from http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-csvw-minutes.html are approved
12:06:39 <ivan> zakim, Ugent is andimou
12:06:39 <Zakim> +andimou; got it
12:06:41 <rgrp> i was not there but looked good
12:06:57 <JeniT> Topic: Use Cases & Requirements
12:06:57 <rgrp> btw rgrp = rufus pollock
12:07:12 <JeniT> jtandy: I've seen a few additions coming in with new use cases
12:07:16 <JeniT> ... eg HL7
12:07:25 <ivan> q+
12:07:26 <JeniT> ... also a couple of others to dig into
12:07:41 <JeniT> ... the major piece of work is to go through the requirements & identify the ones we want to approve
12:07:52 <JeniT> ... we should also flesh out the requirements
12:08:00 <JeniT> ... which are currently stubs
12:08:16 <ivan> scribenick: JeniT
12:08:17 <JeniT> ... I'm hoping to find some time later this week to get that started
12:08:22 <JeniT> ack ivan
12:08:49 <JeniT> ivan: there are examples that Yakov collected re internationalisation
12:08:56 <JeniT> ... it would be good to add those to the use case document too
12:09:14 <JeniT> jtandy: I recall those conversations, and agree we should include them, they're not there currently
12:09:44 <JeniT> JeniT: how should we keep track of the new additions? shall we use GitHub issues?
12:10:03 <JeniT> jtandy: yes, good idea, we'll raise new use cases there
12:10:55 <JeniT> ivan: who should put in the first set of issues to github?
12:11:47 <JeniT> ivan: I'll add the internationalisation one
12:11:50 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:11:50 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:11:55 <JeniT> jenit: I'll add the HL7 one
12:12:20 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:12:20 <Zakim> jtandy should no longer be muted
12:12:35 <JeniT> ... jtandy, could you do an initial split on requirements so we have something to argue about?
12:12:44 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:12:44 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:12:51 <JeniT> jtandy: will do
12:13:14 <jtandy> zakim, unmute jtandy
12:13:14 <Zakim> jtandy was not muted, jtandy
12:13:26 <JeniT> jtandy: regrets for next week
12:13:43 <JeniT> ... but Davide/Eric could talk through the candidate list for next week's meeting?
12:13:50 <JeniT> ericstephan, DavideCeolin: sounds good
12:14:18 <JeniT> jtandy: I think the majority of requirements are good, there's possibly a small number that are duplicates
12:14:38 <JeniT> DavideCeolin: I can start doing that partitioning
12:14:50 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:14:50 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:15:05 <ivan> Topic: CSV to RDF
12:15:29 <JeniT> AndyS: Gregg's put in some materials discussing templating RDF outputs
12:15:38 <JeniT> ... that should be a good framework for designing the process
12:15:47 <JeniT> ... people can add their own templates
12:15:56 <JeniT> ... but we can also define annotations in terms of the templates
12:16:02 <JeniT> ... which can then be overwritten
12:16:13 <JeniT> ... the only issues I can see are that to have a template you have to have a syntax
12:16:14 <ivan> zakim, who is noisy?
12:16:26 <Zakim> ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: JeniT (43%), Ivan (36%)
12:16:37 <ivan> zakin, mute me
12:17:00 <JeniT> ... turtle is fairly natural
12:17:10 <JeniT> ... and we should probably pick that
12:17:23 <JeniT> ... we'd all appreciate discussion & feedback on the list
12:17:34 <JeniT> ... we're not going to resolve the issue about how complicated to make that
12:17:48 <JeniT> ... the balance between having some level of RDF & how complicated to make the remapping
12:17:54 <JeniT> ... it overlaps with other toolchains
12:18:00 <ivan> q+
12:18:06 <JeniT> ... but you don't want to learn lots of different tool to get RDF out of CSV files
12:18:08 <JeniT> ack ivan
12:18:43 <JeniT> ivan: how generic are the templates? what if I want to generate JSON or XML?
12:18:49 <JeniT> ... are the templates very RDF specific?
12:19:06 <Zakim> -jumbrich
12:19:06 <JeniT> AndyS: I don't know; it works easily in RDF because you're producing triples
12:19:13 <JeniT> ... whereas JSON is about generating the tree
12:19:20 <JeniT> ... it would be interesting to work through that
12:19:25 <Zakim> +??P11
12:19:35 <JeniT> ... there's some level of JSON generation within a fixed framework
12:19:52 <jumbrich> zakim, ??P11 is jumbrich
12:19:52 <Zakim> +jumbrich; got it
12:19:53 <JeniT> ... more complicated arrangements where the top-level wrapping isn't an array then it could be complex
12:20:07 <JeniT> ... Gregg is probably the person to answer that, please could you bring it up on the list?
12:20:22 <JeniT> ... on the mailing list for wide comment
12:20:37 <JeniT> ivan: I was asking because if the templates are generic then this has an influence on syntax
12:20:49 <JeniT> ... because you don't want turtle because anti-RDF people won't use it
12:21:03 <JeniT> AndyS: there is that: you have to say what you want generated anyway
12:21:18 <JeniT> ... to some extent, if there's a template system for JSON and one for RDF triples
12:21:24 <JeniT> ... then that's probably ok
12:21:38 <JeniT> ... I'm still not keen on using JSON-LD as the templating system for RDF
12:22:03 <JeniT> ... and going down the road where JSON-LD is acceptable for JSON output
12:22:14 <JeniT> ivan: I don't know, I was thinking about the template in a JSON format
12:22:27 <JeniT> AndyS: I don't think these are technical issues, more external requirements issues
12:22:36 <JeniT> ... and that's why I want more input from the wider group
12:22:46 <JeniT> http://w3c.github.io/csvw/csv2rdf/
12:23:17 <JeniT> ivan: it would be good to mark which of the documents are the ones you want us to comment on/look at
12:24:10 <ivan> zakim, mute me
12:24:10 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
12:24:37 <rgrp> JeniT: good points
12:25:00 <JeniT> JeniT: please could everyone comment on overall direction on the mailing list
12:25:10 <JeniT> ... also: is it reusing SPARQL CONSTRUCT?
12:25:22 <JeniT> AndyS: no, it's a syntax-based template based on turtle
12:25:51 <JeniT> ACTION: Jeni to start discussion about level of mapping
12:25:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-13 - Start discussion about level of mapping [on Jeni Tennison - due 2014-04-30].
12:26:37 <JeniT> Topic: Model
12:27:11 <JeniT> http://w3c.github.io/csvw/syntax/#locating-metadata
12:27:18 <JeniT> jenit: there are still issues here
12:27:58 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
12:27:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, Ivan (muted), JeniT, jtandy (muted), DavideCeolin, ericstephan, andimou, jumbrich
12:28:02 <JeniT> ... particularly around whether we support metadata embedded within CSV files
12:28:23 <JeniT> ... I'll frame this on the mailing list and then try to have a discussion on the call next week or the week after
12:28:56 <JeniT> Topic: Metadata Vocabulary
12:30:26 <rgrp> that's right - sorry re phone
12:30:27 <JeniT> jenit: after call last time, I got in touch with rufus re editing spec on metadata vocabulary, based on data package work
12:30:40 <JeniT> ... he will edit that document, with me & possibly Ross Jones as editors
12:31:00 <JeniT> ... we'll aim for a first draft in two weeks
12:31:04 <rgrp> ok
12:31:09 <rgrp> good to have a deadline :-)
12:31:18 <JeniT> :)
12:31:36 <jtandy> q+
12:31:41 <JeniT> ack jtandy
12:32:04 <JeniT> jtandy: just to confirm, the datapackage stuff exists
12:32:14 <JeniT> ... AndyS, Gregg & myself are looking at templating
12:32:19 <JeniT> ... are we looking at merging those
12:32:26 <rgrp> ivan: i'm rgrp on github
12:33:24 <ivan> q+
12:33:38 <AndyS> I'd assumed two docs - the packaging was the format, then RDF/JSON mapping used that. But one is OK.
12:34:03 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:34:03 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:34:50 <Zakim> -jumbrich
12:35:06 <Zakim> +??P11
12:35:08 <JeniT> jenit: yes, we'll get to a coherent state where there's a metadata vocabulary and the RDF/JSON mapping documents reference or use that
12:35:13 <JeniT> ack ivan
12:35:39 <JeniT> ivan: the packaging format isn't the metadata vocabulary, right?
12:35:43 <jumbrich> zakim, ??P11 is jumbrich
12:35:43 <Zakim> +jumbrich; got it
12:35:47 <JeniT> ... the vocabulary is another issue that we haven't touched at
12:36:05 <JeniT> ... are the template for RDF part of the metadata or not
12:37:38 <jtandy> JeniT: there are three things -
12:37:53 <jtandy> ... the packaging of metadata and multiple csv files together
12:38:10 <jtandy> ... the metadata vocabulary for describing the CSV content
12:38:34 <jtandy> ... the mapping of CSV content to RDF, JSON etc.
12:38:56 <jtandy> ... if the latter two are combined then this will be a design decision
12:39:24 <rgrp> i'd have to say whilst i think 2 + 3 are clearly strongly related they shoudl be distinct ...
12:39:31 <jtandy> ... the OKF data protocol work merges these requirements at present; wanting to separate these out
12:40:05 <jtandy> no probs
12:40:30 <rgrp> jtandy: i think (3) isn't covered by data protocols stuff and 1+2 are separated to the extent that data package spec is separate from json table schema (+ these 2 get combined to make tabular data pacakge)
12:40:35 <JeniT> ivan: for our own planning, will we go through another publication round in 2-3 weeks?
12:40:36 <rgrp> jtandy: good points
12:40:42 <JeniT> jenit: I think closer to 4 weeks
12:40:53 <jtandy> rgrp: thanks for clarification
12:41:16 <JeniT> Topic: AOB
12:42:10 <Zakim> -jtandy
12:42:12 <Zakim> -ericstephan
12:42:14 <Zakim> -JeniT
12:42:15 <Zakim> -Ivan
12:42:15 <ericstephan> quit
12:42:16 <Zakim> -AndyS
12:42:17 <JeniT> ADJOURNED
12:42:17 <Zakim> -andimou
12:42:18 <Zakim> -jumbrich
12:42:21 <Zakim> -DavideCeolin
12:42:22 <Zakim> DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has ended
12:42:22 <Zakim> Attendees were AndyS, Ivan, JeniT, +44.777.586.aaaa, jtandy, DavideCeolin, +1.509.554.aabb, ericstephan, jumbrich, andimou
12:42:33 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:42:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/23-csvw-minutes.html ivan
12:42:46 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
12:42:46 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
12:42:46 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
12:42:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
12:42:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/23-csvw-minutes.html trackbot
12:42:55 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
12:42:55 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/23-csvw-actions.rdf :
12:42:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jeni to start discussion about level of mapping [1]
12:42:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/23-csvw-irc#T12-25-51