13:38:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webmob
13:38:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/16-webmob-irc
13:38:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs 306
13:38:54 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WEBMOB
13:38:54 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see MWI_WBMB()10:00AM scheduled to start in 22 minutes
13:38:55 <trackbot> Meeting: Web and Mobile Interest Group Teleconference
13:38:55 <trackbot> Date: 16 April 2014
13:39:43 <schuki> scribe: marcos
13:40:04 <schuki> scribenick: marcosc
13:41:24 <schuki> oh talk going on about tests in #webtv
13:53:26 <schuki> lol marcosc i should have asked if you're still ok to scribe?
13:53:55 <bshambaugh> bshambaugh has joined #webmob
13:58:38 <schuki> hi bshambaugh!
13:58:43 <larsgk> marcosc: thanks - was away from the computer.  This is the first time I join here - how does the irc vs voice work? - transcripts in both or just here for pasting code and such?
13:59:06 <marcosc> larsgk: sorry, was in meeting
13:59:31 <marcosc> larsgk: we just write the minutes + make fun of each other in IRC :)
13:59:51 <marcosc> Zakim, what's the passcode?
13:59:51 <Zakim> the conference code is 932662 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), marcosc
14:00:01 <larsgk> marcosc: ok - then you can make fun of me if I don't manage to get the SIP working :D
14:00:20 <Zakim> MWI_WBMB()10:00AM has now started
14:00:29 <Zakim> +schuki
14:00:36 <Zakim> + +1.416.848.aaaa
14:00:50 <marcosc> Zakim, +1.416.848.aaaa is me
14:00:50 <Zakim> +marcosc; got it
14:01:05 <Zakim> +??P16
14:01:28 <kawada_> kawada_ has joined #webmob
14:01:46 <marcosc> zakim, mute +??P16
14:01:46 <Zakim> sorry, marcosc, I do not know which phone connection belongs to +??P16
14:02:05 <larsgk> I can hear you but nobody hears me I guess
14:02:06 <larsgk> ?
14:02:12 <dom> Zakim, code?
14:02:12 <Zakim> the conference code is 932662 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), dom
14:02:29 <Zakim> +??P8
14:02:33 <dom> Zakim, ??P8 is me
14:02:33 <Zakim> +dom; got it
14:02:46 <mdadas> mdadas has joined #webmob
14:03:06 <dom> Zakim, who's noisy?
14:03:18 <Zakim> dom, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
14:03:23 <schuki> :/
14:03:27 <dom> Zakim, who's on the call?
14:03:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see schuki, marcosc, ??P16, dom
14:03:28 <larsgk> sorry
14:03:31 <larsgk> I can hear you
14:03:39 <Zakim> + +33.6.80.59.aabb
14:03:41 <marcosc> larsgk, np... we will get you sorted
14:03:47 <dom> Zakim, aabb is Mohammed_D
14:03:47 <Zakim> +Mohammed_D; got it
14:03:57 <Zakim> -??P16
14:04:34 <dom> Zakim, who's on the call?
14:04:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see schuki, marcosc, dom, Mohammed_D
14:05:13 <larsgk> ubuntu 13.10 - trying a different client..
14:05:13 <Zakim> +??P14
14:05:32 <dom> Zakim, ??P14 is probably larsgk
14:05:32 <Zakim> +larsgk?; got it
14:05:59 <marcosc> TOPIC: Welcome
14:06:04 <schuki> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Meetings#Teleconference_Dates_.26_Times
14:06:10 <marcosc> agenda^^^
14:06:16 <dom> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Meetings#Teleconference_Dates_.26_Times
14:06:40 <marcosc> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-mobile/2014Apr/0009.html
14:07:16 <Zakim> -larsgk?
14:07:33 <schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/ServiceWorker/tree/master/examples
14:07:42 <marcosc> TOPIC: Offline
14:08:02 <Zakim> + +1.405.708.aacc
14:08:18 <bshambaugh> Hello WebMob
14:08:25 <marcosc> N
14:08:33 <marcosc> s/N//
14:08:42 <bshambaugh> yes
14:08:48 <dom> Zakim, aaccc is bshambaugh
14:08:48 <Zakim> sorry, dom, I do not recognize a party named 'aaccc'
14:08:54 <marcosc> schuki: the WebApps WG is currently working on this.
14:09:04 <dom> Zakim, aacc is bshambaugh
14:09:04 <Zakim> +bshambaugh; got it
14:09:29 <Zakim> +??P21
14:09:48 <kawada_> zakim, ??21 is me
14:09:48 <Zakim> sorry, kawada_, I do not recognize a party named '??21'
14:09:49 <dom> Zakim, mute ??P21
14:09:50 <Zakim> ??P21 should now be muted
14:09:51 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:09:57 <dom> Zakim, ??P21 is kawada_
14:09:57 <Zakim> +kawada_; got it
14:10:04 <dom> Zakim, [Ipcaller] is larsgk
14:10:04 <Zakim> +larsgk; got it
14:10:05 <kawada_> zakim, ??P21 is me
14:10:05 <Zakim> I already had ??P21 as kawada_, kawada_
14:10:15 <larsgk> went mute
14:10:54 <marcosc> schuki: I've made a fork of the service worker repo. I've been gathering, use cases from various folks. In the Gh repo, you will see the use cases, etc. As a group, we should work on these use cases or put them into an application.
14:11:23 <schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/ServiceWorker/tree/master/examples
14:12:05 <marcosc> schuki: we currently don't have any real implementations that we can work from - from the browser vendors. Chrome and FireFox are hoping to support this soon. But even though there is no implementation, we can start working it regardless. Anyone can start working on this.
14:12:08 <schuki> q?
14:12:18 <marcosc> schuki: please just pick a GH issue
14:12:54 <schuki> marcosc: i think there may be too many things
14:13:04 <schuki> ... maybe we should gather them into the list
14:13:08 <schuki> s/the/a
14:13:13 <larsgk> short bio:  Lars Knudsen, have worked with mobile web tech since 2001 in larger companies, in Nokia N9/WebKit2/MeeGo team until mid 2012, experience with browser and webkit src, qa of APIs and browser, "evangelist for the common avg joe web developer"
14:13:13 <marcosc> https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/tree/master/examples
14:15:40 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:15:53 <schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/ServiceWorker/issues/37
14:15:58 <tobie__> Zakim, [IP is me
14:15:58 <Zakim> +tobie__; got it
14:16:14 <schuki> marcosc: merge some, make apps which show more use cases
14:16:26 <schuki> ... better if we have fewer things, so we don't over promise
14:17:04 <tobie__> q+
14:17:19 <marcosc> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/ServiceWorker/issues
14:18:29 <schuki> marcosc: if we gather into a separate dir, with targets to hit, hit three per app, this would be more achievable
14:19:15 <schuki> ack tobie__
14:19:15 <dom> ack tobie__
14:19:41 <marcosc> tobie: I just a contract with Mozilla to help them with their service workers imp
14:20:14 <marcosc> tobie: so all of this should converge
14:20:52 <marcosc> tobie: the other thing that is interesting, there is an implementation that use Node
14:21:16 <marcosc> schuki: it will be great to have Tobie working on SWs so he can keep us up to date
14:21:36 <marcosc> schuki: I have had some interest from some people to work on this
14:22:19 <marcosc> schuki: I will add those people to the wiki
14:22:44 <schuki> q?
14:23:01 <marcosc> TOPIC: device orientation
14:23:19 <schuki> marcosc: larsgk is also trying to work on this
14:23:27 <tobie__> node.js serviceworker polyfill https://github.com/phuu/serviceworker-polyfill/
14:24:03 <schuki> marcosc: our group is well suited to making a contribution to this discussion
14:24:10 <schuki> ... bringing in all problems like in net info
14:24:19 <schuki> ... larsgk can you give an overview?
14:24:21 <dom> (probably relevant, https://github.com/w3c/deviceorientation/issues/4 )
14:24:44 <bryan> bryan has joined #webmob
14:24:54 <schuki> larsgk: i worked in nokia on the n9 browser
14:25:12 <Zakim> +Bryan_Sullivan
14:25:26 <bryan> present+ Bryan_Sullivan
14:25:48 <schuki> larsgk: we thought about how there aren't many web game devs
14:25:49 <tobie__> +1 to orientation lock being an issue for game dev.
14:25:58 <schuki> ... the device orientation is an issue here
14:26:23 <schuki> larsgk: symbian was portrait devices, some others were landscape
14:26:35 <schuki> ... this meant games mapped differently per device
14:26:40 <dom> q+ to comment on renewed work on device orientation in renewed geo wg
14:26:43 <schuki> marcosc: cool!
14:27:51 <marcosc> larsgk: I've been working with web tech for many years. I used to work with Nokia on one of their browsers as a developer evangelist - bridging between browser devs and web devs. What we saw inside Nokia is that different teams has implemented the x, y, z, differently (MC: also happened on Android). The current specs seem to confuse implementers.  It's pretty important that when we do these specs we are more clear. We need to have a holistic vi
14:27:51 <marcosc> ew of the APIs with regards to accelerometer data, etc.
14:29:15 <marcosc> to keep things simple, the w3c should decide what is the default for all devices for orientation (i.e., what is "up").
14:30:10 <dom> q?
14:30:16 <tobie__> q+
14:30:23 <marcosc> larsgk: we need to have a holistic view that makes orientation consistent across the platform
14:30:35 <dom> ack me
14:30:35 <Zakim> dom, you wanted to comment on renewed work on device orientation in renewed geo wg
14:30:36 <schuki> ack dom
14:32:02 <marcosc> dom: I agree that developing a holistic view. Just in terms of FYI, the geolocation WG, which is responsible for device orientation, is being restarted. Richt and other in that group have also started to look into this. In any case, it would be extremely useful to define this. We need a volunteer to work on this.
14:32:08 <larsgk> I will do my best to provide examples and input
14:33:30 <marcosc> larsgk: it would be fine - but we really need this to enable gaming on the Web. I'm willing to put in a lot of hours into this. I can work with kenneth also on this to provide even more inputs.
14:33:40 <larsgk> larsgk@gmail.com
14:34:13 <larsgk> larsgk
14:34:14 <larsgk> :)
14:34:16 <larsgk> on github
14:34:20 <dom> [we should also lists all the specs we know are affected by device orientation]
14:34:28 <marcosc> ACTION: Marcos to set up GH for orientation work
14:34:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-102 - Set up gh for orientation work [on Marcos Caceres - due 2014-04-23].
14:35:03 <marcosc> marcosc: I'll add kenneth and the rest of the orientation people
14:35:22 <larsgk> dom: a mini dependency graph around "anything orientation" might actually be good (something that could/should be done in general on web standards related to one another)
14:35:33 <dom> +1
14:36:25 <dom> yes, orientation links to portrait/landscape which links to window dimensions
14:37:24 <marcosc> tobie__: I don't have much to add... except that it is great to look at this in detail. The whole portrait/lanscape thing takes a whole different color on desktop browsers...
14:37:47 <larsgk> thoughts ^ ?
14:38:10 <marcosc> tobie__: ... on desktop the semantics are different from mobile
14:38:29 <marcosc> tobie__: the second point, we need to align with the CSS people.
14:39:31 <marcosc> tobie__: device orientation, orientation locking, and CSS ... it would be extemely useful for this group to describe what areas/groups are touched by this
14:39:39 <marcosc> dom: yes, I agree.
14:39:45 <larsgk> marcosc: on desktop we don't need lock.. but if say "laptop" with tablet features... then it should work exactly the same as mobile.. actually. ?
14:40:43 <marcosc> tobie__: we also need consider watches and non-square user interfaces ... as the currently language that we are using in these specs is problematic
14:40:48 <marcosc> larsgk: I agree.
14:40:49 <larsgk> consider "degrees" .. e.g. "0 deg", 90 180, etc.
14:41:12 <larsgk> where 0 deg ~ portrait up ~ (x,y,z)=(0,1,0)
14:42:16 <marcosc> TOPIC: Installable Web Apps
14:42:25 <schuki> marcosc: some news
14:43:04 <schuki> ... microsoft said they are interested, i am hoping to patch up the doc and send it to them
14:43:13 <schuki> ... they feel some of their use cases are not addressed
14:43:20 <schuki> ... mainly related to needs of their store
14:43:31 <schuki> ... they want to use it for their packaged apps too
14:43:43 <schuki> marcosc: Google also gave some positive signals
14:44:10 <schuki> ... orientation is one of the things holding up the draft
14:44:16 <schuki> q?
14:44:21 <schuki> ack tobie__
14:44:50 <marcosc> TOPIC: Coord with Cordova
14:45:08 <marcosc> dom: a few weeks ago I spoke with the cordova/phonegap folks
14:45:20 <marcosc> http://phonegap.com/
14:45:37 <marcosc> https://cordova.apache.org/
14:46:07 <dom> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-mobile/2014Feb/0051.html http://markmail.org/thread/yd3fnaixzw2aln7e
14:46:21 <marcosc> dom: lets you build packaged apps to target a range of platforms... they provide APIs for device access. Currently the W3C and Cordova APIs don't align
14:47:10 <marcosc> dom: I'm hoping to work with Cordova to align the APIs ... and to get more feedback from the Cordova community back to the W3C
14:48:06 <larsgk> in my experience: cordova is pretty slow compared to crosswalk - if possible to package crosswalk without the JIT/V8 it would be great (or port/contribute to cordova to make it faster)?
14:48:06 <marcosc> dom: tonight, I'm going to join a hangout with with the Cordova ... will report back
14:48:39 <larsgk> (without the V8 for iOS)
14:49:14 <tobie__> q+
14:49:30 <marcosc> schuki: is there any particular APIs that they are looking at in particular?
14:49:35 <dom> http://markmail.org/thread/yd3fnaixzw2aln7e links to the issues that highlight the divergence between our APIs and theirs
14:49:38 <marcosc> dom: they have about 14 or 15 APIs, but many don't align
14:49:46 <schuki> ack tobie__
14:49:46 <dom> s/many/most
14:50:25 <marcosc> tobie__: my understanding is that they are not packaging a runtime?
14:50:35 <marcosc> larsgk: iOS doesn't allow it
14:50:56 <marcosc> tobie__: I was wondering if they are doing something different on other platforms?
14:51:18 <marcosc> dom: I think they might let you pick a webview on Android
14:52:38 <marcosc> dom: the second point I want to make: when they don't provide the runtime, it is very hard for them to implement particular APIs. This might make it difficult to implement particular features (e.g., ones that depend on parsing HTML)
14:52:51 <marcosc> s/dom/tobie/
14:54:09 <marcosc> tobie__: another problem is that bridge and native system has to be asynchronous.
14:54:28 <marcosc> larsgk: I think this might be an WebKit 2 related issue....
14:55:46 <marcosc> tobie__: the bridge can only be set up asynch and some APIs can only be used after "deviceready" event fires. This makes for some strange APIs. This makes things very hard to test sometimes.
14:56:45 <larsgk> sync/async:  we will probably not get away from that in the future anyway (async = better UI speed, etc. often) - but wasn't e.g. the orientation lock async (at least the spqc at some point) - e.g. "ask for lock, function(result({...})"
14:56:52 <marcosc> dom: I looked a bit at testing as a motivation for this work. The other big problem is that the APIs don't even bother try to be WebIDL.
14:58:31 <marcosc> marcos: the spec is very hard to read. Lots of people have complained about it being inaccessible
14:59:07 <marcosc> dom: anyway, there is probably not much we can do about that in the short.
14:59:13 <marcosc> dom: term
14:59:55 <bshambaugh> Hey guys, catch you later. Another call at freenode #payswarm
14:59:57 <marcosc> marcos: we are also trying to do something similar at Mozilla.
15:00:09 <Zakim> -bshambaugh
15:00:32 <Zakim> -tobie__
15:00:34 <schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/payments-use-cases
15:00:40 <marcosc> TOPIC: Payments
15:01:05 <marcosc> schuki: we are done with the payment usecases, as we have handed them over the the Payment CG
15:01:33 <marcosc> schuki: a report has been produced from the Payments CG
15:01:57 <dom> Zakim, who's on the call?
15:01:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see schuki, marcosc, dom, Mohammed_D, kawada_ (muted), larsgk, Bryan_Sullivan
15:02:31 <schuki> https://github.com/w3c-webmob/payments-use-cases/issues?state=open
15:02:48 <schuki> Q?
15:03:53 <Zakim> -Bryan_Sullivan
15:03:54 <Zakim> -dom
15:03:54 <Zakim> -Mohammed_D
15:03:55 <Zakim> -schuki
15:03:58 <schuki> thank-you!!!
15:04:00 <Zakim> -marcosc
15:04:03 <Zakim> -larsgk
15:04:08 <kawada_> kawada_ has left #webmob
15:04:13 <schuki> thanks for scribing marcosc
15:04:15 <schuki> :D
15:04:19 <dom> Zakim, list attendees
15:04:19 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been schuki, marcosc, dom, +33.6.80.59.aabb, Mohammed_D, larsgk?, +1.405.708.aacc, bshambaugh, kawada_, larsgk, [IPcaller], tobie__,
15:04:20 <marcosc> np
15:04:22 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:04:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/16-webmob-minutes.html dom
15:04:23 <Zakim> ... Bryan_Sullivan
15:04:23 <Zakim> -kawada_
15:04:23 <Zakim> MWI_WBMB()10:00AM has ended
15:04:23 <Zakim> Attendees were schuki, marcosc, dom, +33.6.80.59.aabb, Mohammed_D, larsgk?, +1.405.708.aacc, bshambaugh, kawada_, larsgk, [IPcaller], tobie__, Bryan_Sullivan
15:04:23 <dom> Zakim, who's on the call?
15:04:24 <Zakim> apparently MWI_WBMB()10:00AM has ended, dom
15:04:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see bshambaugh, RRSAgent, Zakim, marcosc, dom, larsgk, schuki, sangwhan, trackbot, ernesto, tobie__, paul___irish
15:06:33 <marcosc> dom: yep
15:06:44 <marcosc> just setting up the repo for orientation first
15:18:59 <larsgk> all: sorry for the queue interruptions - I didn't know protocol - thanks for letting me contribute though :)
15:18:59 <marcosc> tobie__: can I add you to team orientation?
15:19:20 <tobie__> sure
15:19:24 <marcosc> larsgk: np! thanks again for joining
15:19:41 <larsgk> thanks for having me :) ttyl
15:31:24 <marcosc> RRSAgent, make minutes public
15:31:24 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', marcosc.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:32:12 <marcosc> RRSAgent, publish minutes
15:32:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/16-webmob-minutes.html marcosc
15:33:11 <marcosc> RRSAgent, set logs public
15:34:22 <marcosc> dom, sorry... I can't remember how ot (or don't have sufficient privileges) to make the minutes public?
15:34:31 <marcosc> I told "RRSAgent, set logs public"
15:34:48 <marcosc> but still getting "insufficient privileges"
15:35:32 <dom> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:35:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/16-webmob-minutes.html dom
15:35:42 <dom> should be good now
15:36:01 <marcosc> thanks!
17:08:24 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webmob
17:29:00 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #webmob
17:52:01 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #webmob
19:48:45 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #webmob