14:55:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webizen
14:55:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webizen-irc
14:55:45 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webizen
14:56:04 <koalie> Zakim, this will be 93249
14:56:04 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, koalie
14:56:10 <koalie> Zakim, list conference
14:56:10 <Zakim> I don't understand 'list conference', koalie
14:56:19 <koalie> Zakim, help?
14:56:19 <Zakim> Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
14:56:21 <Zakim> Some of the commands I know are:
14:56:21 <Zakim>  xxx is yyy       - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
14:56:21 <Zakim>                     if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
14:56:21 <Zakim>  xxx may be yyy   - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
14:56:22 <Zakim>  I am xxx         - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
14:56:22 <Zakim>  xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
14:56:22 <Zakim>  xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
14:56:22 <Zakim>  who's here?      - lists the participants on the phone
14:56:23 <Zakim>  who's muted?     - lists the participants who are muted
14:56:23 <Zakim>  mute xxx         - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
14:56:23 <Zakim>  unmute xxx       - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
14:56:23 <Zakim>  is xxx here?     - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
14:56:23 <Zakim>  list conferences - reports the active conferences
14:56:24 <Zakim>  this is xxx      - associates this channel with conference xxx
14:56:24 <Zakim>  excuse us        - disconnects from the irc channel
14:56:24 <Zakim> I last learned something new on $Date: 2013-03-03 19:18:47 $
14:56:26 <koalie> Zakim, list conferences
14:56:26 <Zakim> I see MM_MMI(EMMA)10:00AM active
14:56:27 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM, SW_HCLS(TMO)11:00AM, WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM, Math_IG()10:00AM, SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM, XML_QueryWG(XSLT)11:00AM,
14:56:27 <Zakim> ... DIG_weekly()10:00AM, Team_Global(review)8:00AM, SW_HCLS()11:00AM, XML_XSLWG()11:00AM, UW_DAP()10:00AM, WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM
14:57:27 <koalie> Zakim, this will be Team_Jeff
14:57:27 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, koalie
14:58:16 <veronica> zakim, this will be webiz
14:58:16 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, veronica
14:58:48 <koalie> I just told Ralph on &sysreq
15:00:43 <jeff> jeff has joined #webizen
15:01:01 <AnnBassetti> AnnBassetti has joined #webizen
15:01:29 <koalie> Zakim, this will be Team_Jeff
15:01:29 <Zakim> ok, koalie, I see Team_JEFF(WEBIZEN)11:00AM already started
15:01:30 <jeff> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Webizen
15:01:52 <Zakim> +Veronica
15:02:27 <jeff> zakim --
15:02:29 <Zakim> +koalie
15:02:40 <Zakim> +Ann
15:02:55 <koalie> meeting: Webizen
15:03:38 <koalie> -> http://www.w3.org/2014/03/27-webizen-minutes.html Previous (2014-03-27)
15:05:05 <koalie> Jeff: [overview of https://www.w3.org/wiki/Webizen ]
15:05:17 <koalie> Jeff: Maybe we should modify the "background" section a little bit
15:05:52 <koalie> ... since it's been written we changed that we're going some benefits
15:06:04 <koalie> ... let's live change in the wiki ...
15:06:16 <jcverdie_> jcverdie_ has joined #webizen
15:07:38 <koalie> Jeff: reload to see proposed tweak
15:07:41 <Zakim> +Jean-Charles
15:08:04 <koalie> https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=Webizen&diff=72876&oldid=72873
15:08:47 <koalie> [proposed tweak: "The current proposal provides certain privileges for example participation (via representation) in the AC. "]
15:09:03 <koalie> Ann: For those already participating, the distinction might be too subtle
15:09:05 <koalie> Jeff: OK
15:09:59 <koalie> Ann: It needs to be clear (it's explained further down)
15:10:05 <koalie> Jeff: I have a new proposal
15:10:30 <koalie> Ann: I'm happy to come back to it later, let's keep going
15:10:43 <koalie> Jeff: OK, we can do it offline also
15:10:56 <koalie> [Jeff continues with overview of wiki content]
15:11:39 <veronica> q+
15:11:56 <jeff> Topic: Section on Concept
15:12:10 <jeff> Jeff: When do we work on the developing country piece?
15:12:16 <jeff> ... Can it wait until later
15:12:31 <jeff> Veronica: Confusing use of term Membership.
15:12:52 <koalie> Jeff: The only terminology we have thus far is "webizen"
15:13:05 <koalie> Ann: In the intro, it says "individual membership" several times
15:13:20 <koalie> JEff: Maybe we should make clear over there that we're not going individual membership.
15:13:23 <koalie> Ann: Yes
15:13:26 <koalie> Veronica: Yes
15:13:51 <koalie> Ann: "affiliation"?
15:13:54 <koalie> Jeff: I like
15:13:55 <veronica> +1 affiliation
15:14:00 <koalie> veronica: I like it too
15:15:45 <koalie> Ann: Let's get to concept and clean up later if there is redundancy
15:16:37 <koalie> Ann: re: developing countries, I don't want this to appear demeaning
15:16:51 <koalie> ... I want to be sensitive about it
15:17:46 <koalie> Ann: I don't want to give different benefits to different people.
15:17:58 <koalie> Jeff: We can't afford to lose money on it.
15:18:10 <koalie> Ann: I understand, but let's figure out a way to avoid this.
15:18:19 <jeff> http://www.ieee.org/membership_services/membership/join/join_dues.html
15:18:20 <koalie> Jeff: I did study IEEE
15:18:25 <koalie> ... over there ^^,
15:18:37 <koalie> ... they have developing nation e-membership
15:18:50 <koalie> ... you have a choice to pay the full or the e-membership
15:19:17 <koalie> ... maybe you don't get their publications with the latter, I don't know.
15:19:32 <koalie> Ann: Maybe we should revisit the foundational goals?
15:19:41 <koalie> ... and aim toward whatever that goal is.
15:19:44 <koalie> Jeff: good point
15:19:51 <koalie> [+1 from Coralie]
15:20:03 <koalie> Jeff: Maybe we need a section
15:20:19 <koalie> s/a section/a section call "Goals"/
15:20:22 <koalie> Ann: Good idea
15:20:24 <koalie> +1
15:20:31 <jcverdie_> +1 to that
15:20:46 <koalie> Jeff: Let's just create a bullet list
15:20:52 <koalie> ... anyone wants to suggest some goals?
15:21:09 <koalie> Ann: One of the most important things is we need more participation in the technical work,
15:21:18 <koalie> ... although I'm not sure this is the goal of webizen
15:21:30 <koalie> Jeff: How about increase the general public review?
15:21:38 <koalie> [Jeff writing in the wiki, live]
15:25:12 <koalie> Jeff: "closer linkage between W3C spec writer and that ecosystem that relies on W3C recommendations"?
15:25:28 <koalie> Jeff: Reload the wiki
15:25:43 <koalie> -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Webizen#Goals Goals section
15:26:39 <koalie> Ann: "reports" not the technology in general?
15:26:50 <koalie> ... "increase affilisation" is the top one in my mind
15:27:23 <koalie> Jeff: Thank you. [minor editing and reorganisation in wiki]
15:27:30 <jeff> q?
15:27:35 <jeff> ack vero
15:27:38 <koalie> -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Webizen#Package_of_benefits Package of Benefits
15:28:30 <veronica> costless except for chckis
15:29:59 <koalie> Ann: add "outsource, contest" next to item "Annual Webizen T-shirt. " ?
15:30:03 <koalie> Coralie: Good idea
15:30:34 <koalie> Ann: Some in the list will appeal more to some than others
15:30:56 <koalie> Jeff: Do we think this is a sufficient set to start with?
15:31:03 <jcverdie_> q+
15:31:04 <koalie> Ann: Yes, it's a good list.
15:31:06 <koalie> ack jc
15:31:16 <koalie> JC: I think it's a good list
15:31:21 <koalie> ... I'll question the organisation of the list
15:31:32 <koalie> ... t-shirt much less important than having a voice
15:31:40 <veronica> q+
15:31:47 <koalie> [the list is currently not ordered by importance]
15:32:17 <koalie> Jeff: OK, it's been changed
15:33:34 <koalie> Jeff: Shall we remove the developing countries section since it's already mentioed before and since it's demeaning?
15:33:37 <koalie> Ann: Yes!
15:33:49 <jcverdie_> +1
15:33:52 <koalie> +1
15:34:21 <koalie> -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Webizen#Participation_Benefits_and_Non_Benefits Participation Benefits and Non Benefits
15:34:29 <koalie> Jeff: This section describes the electoral college
15:34:38 <koalie> ... this is the most controversial part of the proposal
15:34:59 <koalie> ... I felt an obligation to surface it to the W3C Advisory Board that we're having next monday
15:35:22 <koalie> ... I value on this call the input from two people who are on the AB (Ann and JC) and others on this call
15:35:46 <koalie> ... and look fwd to your support on monday if grouchy AB members grouch
15:36:05 <koalie> Ann: I like the concept of limited electoral college
15:37:52 <koalie> JC: I support this proposal
15:38:12 <koalie> q?
15:38:18 <veronica> q-
15:38:29 <jcverdie_> q+
15:38:42 <koalie> Jeff: Let's go back to the discounts in the package of benefits
15:39:06 <koalie> JC: question on college --
15:39:20 <koalie> ... would the privileges extend to running to AB or TAG?
15:39:26 <koalie> JEff: see paragraph 5
15:40:04 <koalie> ... "The reps would have some, but not all rights of an AC Member. They review Charters and REC track deliverables, participate in ac-forum discussions, may attend AC meetings, may nominate for the TAG and AB, and vote in TAG and AB elections. "
15:40:17 <koalie> ... and " They may accept Member confidential information, but may not distribute Member confidential information within their companies (since their companies are not Members) or among Webizens (because re-distribution to all Webizens means it is no longer in Member space). They cannot nominate themselves or anyone else to participate in Working Groups. "
15:40:22 <koalie> JC: thanks
15:40:30 <koalie> JEff: Veronica, discounts?
15:41:02 <koalie> veronica: I initially proposed to offer 20% discounts on Validator Suite, W3C Training and W3Conf
15:41:22 <koalie> ... MCf and Bernard feel that's a bit too generous
15:41:40 <koalie> ... and recommended we don't give a bigger discount than that we offer to w3c members
15:41:47 <koalie> ... they offered 10% for training and VS
15:42:15 <koalie> ... for w3conf, I had suggested 15% and Doug Schepers thought it wasn't generous
15:42:28 <koalie> ... now 20% for w3conf
15:42:59 <koalie> Ann: Would a chart of member benefits and Invited Experts and webizen and other participation categories, be helpful?
15:43:42 <koalie> [feeling in the "room" is that 10% is a little low]
15:44:10 <koalie> Ann: I understand the concern that we don't want to lose money; perhaps the table of comparisons would help?
15:44:19 <jcverdie_> q+
15:44:23 <jeff> s/a little/very/
15:44:28 <koalie> veronica: We want people to join; there is perceived benefit and tangible and intangible
15:44:39 <koalie> ack jc
15:44:53 <koalie> JC: I expect and hope that 10% is not the margin cap of these services
15:44:58 <koalie> ... otherwise we're in trouble
15:45:52 <koalie> ... @@@
15:46:42 <koalie> Jeff: in the entries of that table, you can put "TBD"
15:46:45 <koalie> Veronica: Yes
15:46:51 <jeff> q?
15:47:00 <jcverdie_> s/@@@/Our goal is to bring new people who do not have enough money to become full members, so discounting 10% won't change anything. On the other hand allowing these people to use such tools will bring new exposure to them. As long as we don't lose money I don't mind paying more than people who can't afford
15:47:11 <koalie> -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Webizen#Webizen_voting_for_the_AC Webizen voting for the AC
15:47:21 <koalie> Jeff: I propose we tackle that one last
15:47:30 <AnnBassetti> +1
15:47:32 <koalie> ... it's a hope we can possibly never escape from...
15:47:35 <koalie> Ann: Yes!
15:47:58 <koalie> Jeff: I'll edit the "goal" section to make clear one thing...
15:48:12 <jcverdie_> s/new people who do not have enough money to become full members/a new class of people
15:48:40 <koalie> RRSagent, make minutes
15:48:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webizen-minutes.html koalie
15:49:08 <koalie> Jeff: The Goals section, which was missing thus far, I'd appreciate if people could review it
15:49:30 <koalie> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Webizen#Low-key_launch
15:49:33 <jeff> Topic: Low-key launch
15:49:59 <jeff> Koalie: We don't know how big, so we won't invest too much
15:50:01 <jeff> ... Here's the proposa;
15:50:05 <jeff> s/;/l/
15:50:09 <jeff> ... Landing page
15:50:24 <jeff> ... Pointers to landing page from select pages
15:50:34 <jeff> ... Bonus for early adopters
15:50:45 <jeff> ... posts, blogs, tweets, emails
15:50:56 <jeff> ... mail to people in WGs
15:50:57 <jeff> q+
15:51:07 <jeff> ... lots of tweets and retweets
15:51:22 <jeff> ... e.g. from Tim
15:51:33 <jeff> ... ISOC/IETF/web platform
15:51:40 <jeff> ... of course W3C Memes
15:51:46 <jeff> q+ jj to discuss ISOC
15:51:53 <jeff> ... Alex Russell
15:52:00 <jeff> ... media guys (Shankland)
15:52:13 <jeff> ... Tim O'Reilly
15:52:56 <jeff> ... Target audiences: WG people, validator users, alumni
15:53:04 <jeff> ... No spam
15:53:23 <jeff> ... and of course huge twitter influencers like JC Verdie
15:53:41 <koalie> Ann: great list
15:53:55 <koalie> ... Add tweeter: whiteafrican
15:53:59 <jeff> Ann: Add Eric Hurzman
15:54:11 <jeff> q?
15:54:11 <koalie> ... he's followed by thousands of geeks in Africa
15:54:29 <AnnBassetti> s/Eric Hurzman/Erik Hersmann/
15:54:33 <koalie> ack jeff
15:55:18 <koalie> Jeff: We should reach out to those in Work group who are not affiliated already with us through W3C Members
15:55:32 <koalie> ... -1 on reaching out to sister orgs like ISOC and IETF
15:55:48 <koalie> ... it can be awkward for a variety of reasons
15:55:49 <AnnBassetti> s/Hersmann/Hersman/
15:55:53 <AnnBassetti> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Hersman
15:55:57 <koalie> ... we should try to do it ourselves
15:56:31 <koalie> Coralie: OK, makes sense
15:57:19 <koalie> Jeff: about pitch
15:57:35 <koalie> Jeff: characterizing as an obligation might not work
15:57:40 <koalie> ... doesn't match all the goals
15:58:01 <koalie> ... one of the goals is to give the world an opportunity to give back, you can say that
15:58:22 <koalie> ... action item for someone to align the goals with pitch
15:58:47 <koalie> Ann: I'm interested for somebody to get back with Alex Russell what he thinks about that
15:58:58 <koalie> Jeff: I did offer him the opportunity to participate in this TF
15:59:12 <koalie> ... he said he'd love to but has this project that takes 100% of his time
15:59:27 <koalie> ... I could send him the current wiki and ask if he has any thought on it
15:59:54 <koalie> Ann: Anne van Kesteren tweeted something negative a while ago; I replied he should contribute; he didn't reply
16:00:08 <koalie> ... Maybe other geeks who aren't participating
16:00:24 <koalie> https://twitter.com/koalie/status/451680917564968960
16:01:56 <koalie> Jeff: I reached out and Anne replied
16:02:10 <koalie> ... I don't know if he's satisfied with the current proposal
16:02:40 <koalie> Ann: It might be useful to put "draft" on the wiki
16:02:43 <koalie> Jeff: Yes
16:03:01 <koalie> Ann: "draft" or "help us out!"
16:03:30 <darobin> darobin has joined #webizen
16:03:53 <koalie> Jeff: Veronica needs to update the wiki with discounts proposal
16:04:16 <koalie> Jeff: Any other business that we should be idscussing?
16:04:31 <koalie> ... Electoral college voting technic
16:04:34 <koalie> s/ids/dis/
16:04:50 <koalie> Ann: Special category is required, for those who want to discuss voting :)
16:07:03 <koalie> Ann: Who do we think are our webizens?
16:07:30 <koalie> Jeff: Some of them are those we like to complain about W3C (because they care)
16:08:08 <koalie> Jeff: Next meeting?
16:08:23 <koalie> ... AB discussion next Monday
16:08:36 <koalie> ... this is in TF mode until June AC meeting
16:08:50 <koalie> ... at the AC meeting we'll discuss this, not sure in main tent for breakout session
16:09:02 <koalie> ... then July woods meeting, where W3M decides to approve it or not
16:09:12 <koalie> ... we need to get something out within the next 2 months
16:09:40 <koalie> action: koalie to align pitch phrases with goals as stated in section created today
16:09:54 <koalie> Ann: I'm not a good judge of what would be a compelling benefit
16:10:08 <koalie> ... I'd like to float them with someone
16:10:29 <koalie> ... could people in the Offices identify likely candidates and see what the reactions are?
16:10:32 <koalie> Jeff: Great idea
16:10:46 <koalie> ... and how they would be able to socialise it.
16:11:20 <koalie> Jeff: That's principally comm related; Coralie, action to get this on the Offices calendar?
16:11:24 <koalie> Coralie: yes
16:12:02 <koalie> action: koalie to get W3C Offices to identify likely candidates and seek their reactions
16:12:21 <veronica> May 1
16:12:33 <koalie> Jeff: re: next meeting: I propose in two weeks
16:13:47 <veronica> how about an 'intro' club - starters to help 'develop' the webizen pool
16:13:58 <veronica> May Day!
16:14:03 <darobin> [I reckon that people on the Responsive Images CG could be a good part of an intro club]
16:14:23 <darobin> [I'm happy to reach out to a few of them]
16:15:06 <koalie> Jeff: Monday May 5th?
16:15:20 <koalie> s/th?/th/
16:15:32 <koalie> Jeff: Thanks all for good suggestions today
16:15:38 <veronica> bye
16:15:41 <Zakim> -Veronica
16:15:42 <Zakim> -Jean-Charles
16:15:43 <Zakim> -Ann
16:15:45 <Zakim> -Jeff
16:15:47 <Zakim> -koalie
16:15:47 <Zakim> Team_JEFF(WEBIZEN)11:00AM has ended
16:15:47 <Zakim> Attendees were Jeff, Veronica, koalie, Ann, Jean-Charles
16:15:51 <koalie> [adjourned]
16:15:56 <koalie> Zakim, list attendees
16:15:56 <Zakim> sorry, koalie, I don't know what conference this is
16:16:12 <AnnBassetti> add DAROBIN as semi-participant
16:16:18 <AnnBassetti> (so to speak)
16:17:13 <koalie> RRSagent, make minutes
16:17:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webizen-minutes.html koalie
16:17:58 <koalie> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:18:22 <koalie> chair: Jeff
16:18:38 <koalie> s/<koalie> ->/<koaliie> ->/G
16:18:39 <koalie> RRSagent, make minutes
16:18:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webizen-minutes.html koalie
16:19:12 <koalie> i|I just|scribenick: koalie|
16:19:33 <koalie> i|Jeff: When do we|scribenick: jeff|
16:19:49 <koalie> i|Jeff: The only term|scribenick: koalie|
16:20:05 <koalie> i|Koalie: We don't|scribenick: jeff|
16:20:22 <koalie> i|Ann: great list|scribenick: koalie|
16:21:33 <koalie> RRSagent, make minutes
16:21:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webizen-minutes.html koalie
16:23:08 <koalie> present+ Robin[viaIRC]
16:23:52 <koalie> i|Jeff: [ov]Topic: Section on Background|
16:25:01 <koalie> i|Jeff: Maybe we need|Topic: Create section on Goals|
16:26:00 <koalie> i|costless|Topic: Section on Package of Benefits|
16:26:22 <koalie> i|Jeff: This section describes|Topic: Section on Participation Benefits and Non Benefits|
16:26:56 <koalie> i|Jeff: Let's go back to|Topic: Discounts in the package of benefits|
16:27:46 <koalie> s/hope we can/hole we can/
16:28:56 <koalie> s/No spam/No spam, prefer customer-relation approach/
16:29:54 <koalie> s/technic/technique/
16:30:57 <koalie> i|Ann Special|Topic: Who do we think are our Webizens?|
16:31:35 <koalie> i|Jeff: Monday May|Topic: Next meeting|
16:31:39 <koalie> RRSagent, make minutes
16:31:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webizen-minutes.html koalie
16:36:04 <koalie> i|Jeff: [ov]|Topic: Section on Background|
16:36:20 <koalie> i|Ann: Special|Topic: Who do we think are our Webizens?|
16:36:22 <koalie> RRSagent, make minutes
16:36:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webizen-minutes.html koalie
16:37:03 <koalie> RRSAgent, bye
16:37:03 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webizen-actions.rdf :
16:37:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: koalie to align pitch phrases with goals as stated in section created today [1]
16:37:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webizen-irc#T16-09-40
16:37:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: koalie to get W3C Offices to identify likely candidates and seek their reactions [2]
16:37:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webizen-irc#T16-12-02
16:37:07 <koalie> Zakim, bye
16:37:07 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webizen