16:00:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webapps
16:00:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-irc
16:00:58 <plh> zakim, this is WebApps
16:00:58 <Zakim> plh, I see IA_WebApps()12:00PM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be WebApps".
16:01:06 <ArtB> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
16:01:11 <plh> zakim, this will be WebApps
16:01:11 <Zakim> ok, plh; I see IA_WebApps()12:00PM scheduled to start now
16:01:25 <ArtB> Scribe: Art
16:01:30 <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
16:01:37 <arrrno> arrrno has joined #webapps
16:01:44 <plh> zakim, passcode?
16:01:44 <Zakim> the conference code is 9274 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), plh
16:02:01 <ArtB> Meeting: WebApps f2f Meeting (San Jose CA US)
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16:02:46 <Zakim> IA_WebApps()12:00PM has now started
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16:02:53 <Zakim> +[Paypal]
16:03:03 <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Robin_Berjon, Ryoskue_Niwa, Phillipe_LeHegaret
16:03:17 <dsr> dsr has joined #webapps
16:03:19 <adrianba> Present+ Adrian_Bateman
16:03:22 <ArtB> Present+ Mike_Smith
16:03:29 <plh> Present+Philippe_Le_Hegaret
16:03:30 <dsr> Present+ Dave_Raggett
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16:03:31 <Yves> Present+ Yves_Lafon
16:03:32 <BenjamP> Present+ Ben_Peters
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16:03:33 <alia> Present+ Ali_Alabbas
16:03:35 <aizu> Present+ Hiroyuki_Aizu
16:03:38 <ArtB> Present+ Glenn_Adams
16:03:39 <tyoshino> Present+ Takeshi_Yoshino
16:03:41 <israelh> Present+ Israel_Hilerio
16:03:42 <plh> Present+ Philippe_Le_Hegaret
16:03:44 <arrrno> Present+ Arnaud_Braud
16:03:46 <lgombos> Present+ Laszlo_Gombos
16:04:00 <darobin> Present+ Robin_Berjon
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16:04:26 <MikeSmith> Present+ MikeSmith
16:04:29 <mounir> Present+ Mounir_Lamouri
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16:05:05 <krisk> present+ krisk
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16:05:35 <jhazen> Present+ John_Hazen
16:05:39 <MikeSmith> Present- Mike_Smith
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16:05:56 <anssik> Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
16:06:07 <plh> rrsagent, generate minutes
16:06:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-minutes.html plh
16:06:35 <plh> rrsagent, make logs public-visible
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16:07:03 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:07:12 <plh> Chair: Art
16:07:23 <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
16:07:23 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
16:07:31 <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
16:07:31 <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
16:07:40 <zqzhang> Present+ Zhiqiang_Zhang
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16:08:11 <falken> Present+ Matt_Falkenhagen
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16:08:18 <Zakim> +Bryan_Sullivan
16:08:35 <dcooney> Present +Dominic_Cooney
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16:09:04 <chaals> Regrets+ Chaals
16:09:17 <jungkees> Present+ Jungkee_Song
16:09:53 <bryan> Present+ Bryan_Sullivan
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16:10:55 <bryan> on the bridge, Bryan Sullivan (AT&T)
16:11:03 <opoto> present+ opoto
16:11:04 <jmajnert> Present+ Janusz_Majnert
16:11:13 <wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
16:11:25 <dcooney> Present+ Dominic_Cooney
16:12:00 <xiaoqian> Present+ Xiaoqian, Jinsong, Zhiqiang, Baoping
16:12:39 <plh> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus#API_Specifications
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16:13:59 <plh> scribe: plh
16:14:00 <plh> Topic: PubStatus
16:14:08 <plh> Art: Clipboard API
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16:14:32 <plh> ... we have a status report as of April 8
16:14:42 <plh> ... the editor isn't around
16:15:25 <plh> Ryo: some discussions on how to spec the markup
16:15:36 <plh> ... this will take a couple of years to spec
16:15:45 <plh> ... seralize the DOM, including style, is complex
16:15:59 <plh> s/ize/izing/
16:15:59 <plh> ... I'll post more details on the list
16:16:04 <plh> ... but it will take a long time
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16:16:24 <plh> Art: if folks are interested in moving this spec forward, please step up as always
16:16:50 <plh> Art: DOM3 Events
16:16:57 <plh> ... we don't have the editors around either
16:17:04 <plh> ... will be a third LC
16:17:07 <plh> ... 12 bugs
16:17:17 <plh> ... some concerns since HTML5 has a normative ref for it
16:17:28 <plh> ... and would make life easier if DOM3 Events was a REC
16:17:36 <plh> ... since it's not going to happen anytime soon
16:17:47 <plh> ... I've been pushing this soec to go back to LC
16:17:49 <adrianba> q+
16:17:52 <plh> plh has left #webapps
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16:18:22 <plh> Marcos: what's the dependency?
16:18:32 <plh> Robin: it's about the event types
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16:19:13 <plh> Art: UIEvents is blocked on D3E
16:19:30 <plh> ... Pointer Events depends on UIEvents
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16:19:52 <plh> Art: Glenn expressed interest in moving forward D3E
16:20:43 <plh> ... plan is to split out features that would prevent it to move forward
16:20:57 <plh> Adrian: plan to split out key names/values
16:20:59 <smaug> rniwa: wrong port?
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16:21:11 <smaug> rniwa: should be 6665
16:21:17 <plh> ... and proceed
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16:21:46 <plh> ... primary reason is that changing will happen to those anyway
16:22:25 <plh> ... also want to review various mobile platforms and their keyboards
16:23:12 <adrianba> q-
16:23:15 <plh> Art: DOM P&S
16:23:23 <plh> ... pre-LC2 comment period
16:23:32 <plh> ... last set of bugs submitted by Anne
16:23:47 <plh> ... in the absence of issues in the next couple of days, we'll start LC2
16:24:26 <plh> Art: CfC to stop work on File API specs.
16:24:32 <plh> ... no one objected
16:25:13 <plh> Ryo: any test on DOM P&S
16:25:49 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow update testing info in PubStatus for DOM P&S spec
16:25:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-714 - Update testing info in pubstatus for dom p&s spec [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-04-17].
16:26:04 <plh> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/issues?labels=domparsing&page=1&state=open
16:26:26 <plh> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/493
16:27:19 <plh> Art: FullSccreen API
16:27:25 <plh> ... last update was 2 years ago
16:28:03 <plh> ... plan was to copy a somewhat stable version into W3C spec
16:28:20 <plh> ... whenever they think it's donish
16:28:50 <plh> Mike: zero bugs is the best you get from the WHATWG
16:29:06 <plh> ... I don't think it's being worked on actively
16:29:16 <Bin_Hu> Bin_Hu has joined #webapps
16:29:16 <plh> ... it's on a back burner
16:29:39 <plh> Art: any concerns?
16:30:14 <Hixie> could we not copy other groups' work, causing forked specs?
16:30:25 <plh> Glenn: is there a dependency from HTML 5.0
16:30:33 <plh> Robin: Fullscreen is non-normative
16:31:29 <plh> Art: [reading Hixie's comments from IRC]
16:31:34 <plh> queue=
16:31:44 <plh> Art: let's move that to an admin topic
16:31:59 <plh> ... (adding to the whiteboard)
16:32:11 <plh> Art: Gamepad
16:32:25 <plh> ... they have one bug left
16:32:29 <adrianba> q+
16:32:37 <plh> ... will enter LC in Q2
16:32:57 <plh> ack adr
16:33:09 <plh> Adrian: we're looking into this spec. filed a couple of bugs
16:33:11 <marcosc> marcosc has joined #webapps
16:33:12 <plh> ... so some discussion left
16:33:27 <smaug> (Gamepad will be most probably enabled in FF29)
16:33:31 <plh> Present+ Tantek
16:33:38 <plh> Present+ Ted
16:33:42 <plh> Present+ Brad
16:33:48 <plh> Present+ Jonas
16:34:01 <plh> Art: (going to back to fullscreen)
16:34:29 <plh> Tantek: status sounds reasonnable
16:34:36 <plh> ... Anne is doing most of the work there
16:34:46 <plh> ... it's waiting for more implementation feedback
16:35:12 <plh> Art: implementation status?
16:35:15 <plh> plh has left #webapps
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16:35:41 <plh> Marcos: status is pretty good
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16:36:03 <plh> ACTION: Art to follow with Tantek and Anne on next steps for fullscreen
16:36:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-715 - Follow with tantek and anne on next steps for fullscreen [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-04-17].
16:36:26 <plh> Adrian: everybody does it differently :(
16:36:36 <jsbell> jsbell has joined #webapps
16:36:37 <plh> ... body element fullscreen gets different resutls for example
16:37:02 <plh> Art: anybody to look into tests?
16:37:03 <krisk> I can push some tests into github for fullscreen
16:37:06 <plh> Kris: I can do it
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16:37:24 <krisk> ACTION: krisk push full screen api tests into github
16:37:24 <plh> ACTION: Kris to look at tests for Fullscreen
16:37:24 <trackbot> Created ACTION-716 - Push full screen api tests into github [on Kris Krueger - due 2014-04-17].
16:37:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-717 - Look at tests for fullscreen [on Kris Krueger - due 2014-04-17].
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16:37:59 <plh> Art: Aryeh did some good work
16:38:02 <plh> ... and Ryo did some work as well
16:38:10 <plh> ... should we find a timeslot for this?
16:38:13 <plh> Adrian: +1
16:38:16 <dsr> dsr has joined #webapps
16:38:45 <plh> Art: ok, 10:30am then
16:39:01 <Yves> last &sysreq
16:39:08 <Yves> s/last &sysreq//
16:39:09 <plh> Art: IDB
16:39:12 <plh> ... CR for 9 months
16:39:30 <plh> ... draft implementation report
16:39:45 <plh> ... missing data for IE
16:40:01 <plh> Kris: I'll give results
16:40:11 <plh> Art: we're making progress there
16:40:37 <plh> ... between Josh and Jonas, various discussions on work on v2
16:40:47 <krisk> Yep we were talking at the HTML WG meeting about this and exchanged email
16:41:10 <plh> Israel: full text search capability
16:41:38 <plh> Josh: guidance on moving forward for v2?
16:41:50 <tantek> tantek has joined #webapps
16:42:07 <plh> Art: adding IDB at 4pm
16:42:39 <plh> Art: IME
16:43:11 <plh> Yoshi(?): one bug remaining
16:43:22 <slightlyoff> FYI, I'm going to be at the meeting later today and most of tomorrow so feel free to schedule SW discussion for any time after noon today
16:43:26 <plh> ... it's 2 documents now
16:43:33 <plh> ... first one is good enough to move forward
16:44:07 <plh> ... [offset clarification needed]
16:44:41 <plh> Adrian: we need to discuss that one, but we implemented it in IE11 and we were ok with the split
16:44:49 <plh> ... it's in good shape
16:45:09 <plh> Art: what about moz?
16:45:14 <plh> Jonas: dunno
16:45:29 <plh> Yoshi(?): didn't see interest outside MS and GOO
16:46:05 <plh> Art: test?
16:46:23 <plh> Mike: I can work woth Koshi
16:46:32 <plh> s/woth/with/
16:46:40 <falken> ^^^ (Takayoshi Kochi)
16:46:47 <plh> Art: Manifest is this afternoon
16:46:54 <plh> Art: Pointer Lock, we're in CR
16:46:59 <plh> s/Koshi/Kochi/
16:47:09 <plh> ... we have a few tests
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16:47:29 <plh> Art: Push API is this afternoon
16:47:59 <plh> Art: quote API. status report on April 9
16:48:09 <plh> Yves: TAG is working on review of this spec
16:48:13 <plh> ... about to be done
16:48:34 <plh> Art: any issue?
16:48:54 <plh> Yves: one issue on good understanding on type of storage (persistent, etc.)
16:49:29 <plh> Art: Screen Orientation?
16:49:40 <plh> Mounir: I sent an update to the list
16:49:46 <plh> ... so could address questions
16:50:20 <plh> ... made some changes, prefix impl from moz and ms, are they ok with them?
16:50:34 <plh> Jonas: let's allocate some time
16:50:52 <plh> Art: 4:30pm this afternoon
16:51:05 <plh> Art: Server-Sent Events
16:51:07 <plh> ... CR
16:51:10 <plh> ... draft impl report
16:51:36 <plh> ... looks like we're close to being done with this. just a few bugs
16:51:59 <plh> ... there is a PR for the timeout failure
16:52:11 <plh> Zhihang: can someone review it?
16:52:45 <plh> Art: and we have some failures
16:52:53 <plh> ... URL constructor failures
16:53:00 <plh> s/URL//
16:53:12 <plh> ... probably all the same error
16:53:28 <xiaoqian> s/Zhihang/zqzhang/
16:53:32 <plh> ... if someone could take a look at these 4 failures
16:53:48 <plh> ... from the chrome team
16:54:38 <tyoshino> tyoshino of Chrome team. going to take a look at SSE failure
16:54:40 <tyoshino> s
16:55:04 <plh> ACTION: tyoshino to look at the failures on Server-Sent Events
16:55:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-718 - Look at the failures on server-sent events [on Takeshi Yoshino - due 2014-04-17].
16:55:40 <plh> Art: ServiceWorker, we have time allocated
16:56:20 <plh> Art: Stream API
16:56:51 <plh> Feras: we have one common API between Node and the browsers for Stream API in WhATWG
16:56:58 <plh> ... it's pretty stable for the most part
16:57:05 <plh> ... but no really big change expected
16:57:13 <adrianba> q+
16:57:18 <plh> ... some cleaning and then integration back into W3c side
16:57:53 <plh> Marcos: we got agreement to move that spec into W3C proper at some point
16:58:12 <plh> ... while maintaining the CC0 aspect at the same time
16:58:22 <plh> ack ad
16:58:37 <adrianba> http://lanyrd.com/2014/extensible-web-summit/scyqth/
16:58:40 <plh> Adrian: the stream topic was discussed at the summit
16:58:49 <plh> ... (link to minutes above)
16:58:55 <plh> ... good discussion there
16:59:11 <plh> ... sense is that there are still some open questions for the design for the base spec
16:59:39 <plh> Art: captured in the github?
16:59:45 <plh> Marcos: yes, discussion on the way
17:00:00 <plh> Art: ok, looks like this is moving forward
17:00:12 <plh> Present+ Dimitry
17:00:20 <plh> Art: UIEvents
17:00:25 <plh> ... was mentioned earlier
17:00:32 <plh> ... priority is D3E
17:01:04 <krisk> I think their are tests for URL http://w3c-test.org/url/
17:01:16 <plh> Art: Web IDL
17:01:54 <adrianba> s/Web IDL/URL/
17:02:56 <plh> plh: [...]
17:03:50 <plh> ... plan is to work on it in webapps
17:04:27 <tantek> plan is for *who* to work on it in webapps?
17:04:48 <plh> Mike: I won't be able to be the test facilitator
17:04:54 <tantek> or is this just for testing the URL spec?
17:05:22 <plh> Mike: [some discussion on the test suite]
17:05:55 <plh> Glenn: is the plan to publish a W3C version of the spec?
17:05:57 <plh> Plh: yes
17:06:16 <horo> horo has joined #webapps
17:06:17 <plh> ... Dan AppelQuist will look into it
17:06:20 <richt> richt has joined #webapps
17:06:26 <plh> Art: Web IDL
17:06:35 <plh> ... Cameron sent tests
17:06:43 <plh> ... we came up with comments
17:06:51 <plh> ... yves has been looking to update the PR
17:07:24 <plh> ... for the PR, some things are not implemented at all, like ArrayClass
17:07:31 <plh> ... float has some issues
17:07:44 <plh> ... since some constructors are not allowed all values to be checked
17:07:49 <plh> plh has left #webapps
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17:08:13 <plh> Yves: two more weeks of work there
17:08:34 <plh> Art: plan is CR->LC
17:08:46 <plh> Yves: Cameron is pretty close to that
17:09:36 <plh> Art: Boris came on board to help. Anyone else willing to help?
17:10:20 <plh> ... WebIDL is used in a lot of specs
17:10:33 <plh> ... is Promises part of v1?
17:10:44 <plh> Yves: if publishing v1 takes too much time, then yes
17:11:00 <plh> ... as long as we have tests
17:11:16 <plh> Art: ok, work is progressing.
17:11:42 <plh> Art: Web Messaging
17:12:03 <plh> ... spec is in CR for 2 years
17:12:16 <plh> Kris: still lots of failures
17:13:07 <plh> Kris: I think the tests are accurate
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17:14:17 <plh> ACTION: Art to change WebMessaging test facilitator to Kris
17:14:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-719 - Change webmessaging test facilitator to kris [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-04-17].
17:14:50 <plh> Art: Web Sockets
17:14:58 <plh> ... CR in 2012
17:15:36 <plh> ... failures in the tests again
17:15:50 <plh> ... any test case issue?
17:16:18 <plh> Kris: similar to Web Messaging. bugs to be fixed.
17:16:43 <plh> Art: deployment status?
17:16:50 <plh> Robin: works pretty weel
17:16:54 <plh> s/weel/well/
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17:17:07 <plh> Robin: if you stick to the common core
17:17:46 <plh> Art: so many people should go fixing their implementations...
17:18:01 <plh> Art: Workers
17:18:24 <plh> ... similar again
17:19:21 <plh> ... James created an implementation report
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17:20:00 <plh> ACTION: Kris to provide test results for Web Workers
17:20:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-720 - Provide test results for web workers [on Kris Krueger - due 2014-04-17].
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17:20:44 <marcosc> argh
17:21:12 <plh> Art: last is XHR
17:21:32 <plh> Jungkee: not much to update
17:21:45 <plh> ... no particular issue. just working on testing side
17:21:59 <plh> ... test ratio increasing in blink and gecko
17:22:00 <plh> ... need some help from MS
17:22:39 <plh> ... impl report is up-to-date
17:23:44 <plh> ... around 10 to 20 tests are failing across all browsers
17:24:00 <plh> Art: probably more than 20
17:24:20 <plh> Art: back to potential topics
17:24:21 <israelh> israelh has joined #webapps
17:24:32 <plh> ... some admin related stuff
17:24:53 <chaals> ккыфпутеб вкфае ьштгеуы
17:25:08 <chaals> s/ккыфпутеб вкфае ьштгеуы//
17:25:14 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:25:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-minutes.html chaals
17:25:26 <plh> Yves: charter, packaging spec from the TAG
17:25:39 <plh> ... might want to work with webapps for that
17:26:26 <plh> Art: any news from the TAG f2f or summit?
17:26:32 <alia> alia has joined #webapps
17:27:01 <plh> Art: workvers v2?
17:27:03 <plh> plh has left #webapps
17:27:06 <Yves> http://w3ctag.github.io/packaging-on-the-web/
17:27:17 <plh> plh has joined #webapps
17:27:20 <plh> Jonas: sure
17:28:00 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #webapps
17:28:23 <plh> Art: Workers v2 at 5pm
17:29:05 <plh> Art: Admin copying specs at 5:30pm
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17:30:14 <plh> [break]
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18:03:09 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:03:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
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18:08:43 <adrianba> ScribeNick: adrianba
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18:09:04 <adrianba> rniwa: do people from msft have topics other than the two i listed?
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18:09:16 <adrianba> BenjamP: sounds good
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18:09:18 <ArtB> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/editing/raw-file/tip/editing.html -> Editing API
18:09:28 <adrianba> rniwa: on the status page it sounded like i was going to do the whole editing api
18:09:38 <kochi_w3c> kochi_w3c has joined #webapps
18:09:41 <adrianba> ... but i actually want to work on extracting selection and put it into its own spec
18:09:53 <ArtB> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014AprJun/0099.html -> Ryosuke's email re Editing topics
18:09:56 <adrianba> ... so we can unblock other work that is hand wavy about what selection does
18:10:06 <adrianba> ... so i think the priority is for us to work on selection api
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18:10:14 <adrianba> ... and then maybe do editing after
18:10:32 <adrianba> hober: at the html wg the consensus was splitting off selection and tackling that first is a really big win
18:10:46 <adrianba> ... having a well defined way to do multiple selection and bidi would be a good win
18:10:54 <horo> horo has joined #webapps
18:11:05 <adrianba> ... having a good understanding of selection would inform future editing work
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18:11:13 <adrianba> BenjamP: i agree as well
18:11:39 <adrianba> sicking: i haven't followed this - i'm very interested if someone figures out contenteditable we would implement
18:11:45 <adrianba> ... starting with selection sounds good
18:11:51 <adrianba> ... definitely tricky problems where
18:12:00 <adrianba> ... not sure how much it helps with contenteditable
18:12:10 <adrianba> rniwa: copy/paste and clipboard apis is another thing
18:12:26 <adrianba> ... there was a discussion of how to serialise styled DOM
18:12:37 <adrianba> ... i don't know what the dependency should be here
18:12:44 <adrianba> ... should the clipboard api be part of selection api
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18:12:59 <adrianba> ... it seems weird to specify clipboard in selection
18:13:12 <adrianba> BenjamP: maybe it is important for clipboard to understand range
18:13:17 <adrianba> ... knowing active range
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18:13:29 <adrianba> rniwa: are you saying define active selection in selection api
18:13:32 <adrianba> BenjamP: yes
18:13:39 <adrianba> rniwa: but that would block clipboard
18:13:48 <adrianba> hober: i think that's fine
18:13:59 <adrianba> darobin: it makes sense for clipboard to depend on selection
18:14:11 <adrianba> rniwa: copy/paste will be in clipboard api - is that the right approach
18:14:27 <adrianba> rniwa: is there anything else about the selection api split?
18:14:34 <adrianba> ArtB: you are intending to lead the editing?
18:14:38 <adrianba> rniwa: yes
18:14:44 <adrianba> ArtB: are you looking for assistance
18:15:26 <adrianba> darobin: maybe you can start the new spec in github somewhere and then people can do pull requests
18:15:52 <adrianba> rniwa: if someone from microsoft or mozilla or someone else wants to help that would be great
18:15:57 <adrianba> <crickets>
18:16:10 <adrianba> rniwa: i wanted to move on to discussing improving contenteditable
18:16:20 <adrianba> ... i read the spec and it is really hard to read
18:16:30 <adrianba> ... i understand others had problems - it's very algorithmic
18:16:57 <adrianba> ... it appears to me that because of historic divergence between browsers a lot of frameworks are depending on specific bugs in certain browsers
18:17:11 <slightlyoff_> (cwilso and I are waiting in the entry)
18:17:11 <Zakim> +arunranga
18:17:17 <adrianba> ... so i think it would be beneficial to talk about  a new editing api
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18:17:20 <arunranga> Zakim, mute me
18:17:20 <Zakim> arunranga should now be muted
18:17:22 <adrianba> darobin: we discussed this in html
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18:17:45 <adrianba> ... i've been talking to editing frameworks and msft has been talking to their teams
18:17:57 <adrianba> ... we came to the conclusion people want an  editing surface that does less
18:18:16 <adrianba> ... and the apps have to block all the capabilities
18:18:28 <adrianba> ... we were thinking about maybe a more minimal contenteditable
18:18:56 <adrianba> rniwa: the current editing spec has some proposals around new input events
18:19:09 <adrianba> ... and you get more information about key bindings
18:19:25 <adrianba> ... solving that is more important
18:19:37 <adrianba> darobin: wasn't someone working on a higher level event spec
18:19:42 <adrianba> adrianba: IndieUI?
18:19:57 <adrianba> hober: IndieUI would probably be downstream of this
18:20:03 <adrianba> ... it's mostly parallel
18:20:38 <adrianba> rniwa: some apps may already support some subset of events - you could imagine an attribute that allows some of those events to still fire
18:20:47 <adrianba> ... for example pressing delete could send the delete command
18:21:03 <adrianba> ... definitely see connection between IndieUI for a11y and what we need for editing
18:21:11 <adrianba> BenjamP: there is definitely a connection at some level
18:21:31 <adrianba> ... for example they have undo/redo which you would need
18:21:50 <adrianba> hober: if a new spec defined undo/redo as events in the platform then IndieUI would reference them
18:22:13 <adrianba> rniwa: input only fires on editable fields - perhaps we need it on some other things
18:22:33 <adrianba> darobin: one idea for contenteditable=basic is that it gives you a caret - if it was there then it would give those events
18:22:41 <adrianba> ... but maybe you'd need that elsewhere too
18:22:51 <adrianba> ... for example on svg not sure putting contenteditable would work
18:23:07 <adrianba> rniwa: maybe you need something to make an element caret navigateable
18:23:26 <adrianba> ... you don't want to use contenteditable basic but do want events
18:23:34 <adrianba> darobin: makes sense
18:23:46 <adrianba> BenjamP: agree with having basic editing as a long term goal
18:23:55 <adrianba> ... but difficult to do this without better selection first
18:24:03 <adrianba> darobin: we concluded this yesterday too
18:24:17 <adrianba> ... sounds like there will be 3 or 4 features here
18:24:33 <adrianba> dglazkov__: might be good to have a high level explainer first
18:24:45 <adrianba> darobin: like web components?
18:25:12 <adrianba> dglazkov__: i like the way the discussion is going - in webkit and blink editor is an actor on the outside of the DOM
18:25:29 <adrianba> ... the way you are describing it is to build small things to allow the possibility to build in javascript
18:25:38 <adrianba> darobin: and that is what libraries do
18:25:48 <adrianba> ... i'm happy to take an action to write an explainer
18:26:15 <adrianba> rniwa: can we invite people to tpac to discuss this - would be good to get web developers to comment
18:26:30 <adrianba> darobin: we can find a way
18:26:51 <adrianba> dglazkov__: doesn't even need to be at tpac - extensible web summit was awesome because real web developers came
18:26:57 <adrianba> darobin: we should do more of that
18:27:15 <darobin> ACTION: Robin to start writing a high level explainer about the pieces that are needed to put together editing
18:27:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-721 - Start writing a high level explainer about the pieces that are needed to put together editing [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-04-17].
18:27:17 <adrianba> ... bit early to discuss organising at tpac
18:27:20 <adrianba> ... will work on that
18:27:26 <adrianba> rniwa: anything else?
18:27:30 <adrianba> ... thank you
18:27:38 <arunranga> zakim, unmute me
18:27:38 <Zakim> arunranga should no longer be muted
18:28:21 <adrianba> TOPIC: File and Filesystem APIs
18:28:39 <adrianba> arunranga: we should start with File because it is easier
18:28:47 <adrianba> ... issues left that derailed it from LCWD
18:28:57 <ArtB> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/FileAPI/ -> File API spec
18:28:59 <adrianba> ... really problems with Blob
18:29:07 <adrianba> ... everyone wants stream but stream isn't coming yet
18:29:14 <ArtB> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=File%20API&resolution=--- -> File API bugs
18:29:15 <adrianba> ... problems with blob, neutering, and urls
18:29:21 <adrianba> ... believe can be fixed by next week
18:29:30 <adrianba> ... think we can resubmit it
18:29:45 <adrianba> ... not sure if the right people are in the room to sort out the sticky issue of origin of blob
18:29:55 <adrianba> ... we could fix by next week and CfC the week after
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18:30:06 <adrianba> ... any questions?
18:30:23 <adrianba> sicking: the one big issue other than the origin is how does close behave?
18:30:36 <adrianba> ... we have MSFT people here and they implemented close we should ask them
18:30:47 <adrianba> arunranga: there are a number of discussions about close
18:31:00 <adrianba> ... to me those seem solveable but nobody really implemented it yet
18:31:41 <adrianba> adrianba: can you summarise the bugs?
18:31:50 <adrianba> sicking: what happens to blob after you close
18:32:01 <adrianba> ... originally it was defined so that a lot of things would throw
18:32:23 <adrianba> ... now we've been moving in the direction of making fewer things throw
18:32:35 <adrianba> ... so if you try to read then it would give an error
18:32:48 <adrianba> ... the idea being that it creates fewer error conditions
18:32:52 <arunranga> adrianba, here are relevant bugs for you to study — https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25302, https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25241, https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25240
18:33:27 <arunranga> can someone minute adrianba? audio cuts out
18:35:03 <adrianba> adrianba: [summarise IE implementation - fail fast]
18:35:24 <adrianba> sicking: that was our original approach - but it gives more places for failure
18:36:01 <adrianba> arunranga: one of the current proposals was any time an async operation on a closed blob then you could work on a structured clone
18:36:31 <adrianba> ... the other thing is we wouldn't be throwing, we would just fail later as if the underlying file disappeared
18:36:41 <adrianba> ... so we would fail normally
18:36:54 <adrianba> sicking: would be great to get your attention on this
18:39:49 <adrianba> ... clarifies that cloning a closed blob would create another closed clone
18:40:02 <adrianba> adrianba: it sounds okay - it's not what we did but probably okay
18:40:16 <adrianba> arunranga: i will have fixes in place and commentary in the bugs
18:40:27 <adrianba> ... would be good if adrian looked at those bugs and spoke up
18:40:42 <adrianba> ... there are some bugs in File API that have dependencies on other things including WebIDL
18:40:58 <adrianba> ... maybe that is a caveat - agree with Art's plan
18:41:05 <adrianba> ... once that is in place can issue another CfC
18:41:17 <adrianba> ArtB: other than feedback from MSFT is there anything else you need?
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18:41:32 <adrianba> arunranga: jonas, is there anyone in the room to help with other issues?
18:41:45 <adrianba> sicking: for the origin we need adam barth and anne to help with that
18:41:54 <adrianba> arunranga: okay, then we should do FileSystem API
18:42:05 <ArtB> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24998 -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24998
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18:42:20 <adrianba> arunranga: if we switch gears and talk about filesystem api
18:42:22 <ArtB> http://w3c.github.io/filesystem-api/Overview.html -> Filesystem API
18:42:43 <adrianba> ... EricU from Google  - the Google API will be made into a Note
18:42:58 <adrianba> ... and we will work on FileSystem API as WebApps WG deliverable
18:43:13 <adrianba> ... then there would not be two API specs in group
18:43:31 <adrianba> ArtB: CfC to move the specs to WG Note ended and there were no objections - will publish this in the next week or two
18:43:53 <adrianba> arunranga: it would be nice to see if there is concrete implementer support for the FileSystem API outside Mozilla
18:44:00 <adrianba> ... including prioritisation of work
18:44:13 <adrianba> israelh: we're evaluating as part of planning for IE
18:44:22 <adrianba> ... wanted to get more information
18:44:39 <adrianba> ... i understood that Google was going to move to this
18:44:48 <adrianba> jsbell: we're looking at it
18:44:56 <jhazen> Speaker is Israel from MS
18:45:02 <adrianba> sicking: think Google didn't want to move until at least two other parties moving
18:45:35 <adrianba> hober: we have to look again - was based on a strawman from maciej - will need to do a more thorough review
18:45:54 <adrianba> ArtB: do we want to move towards FPWD or let it sit for a while?
18:46:09 <adrianba> israelh: you have an implementation don't you?
18:46:10 <hober> s/we have to look again/overall we generally like the look of it/
18:46:31 <adrianba> sicking: we have two half implementations - something that we use in Firefox OS for reading SD card
18:46:43 <adrianba> ... early version that fed into what is here and now we're updating
18:46:49 <adrianba> ... not the sandbox thing like this
18:46:56 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow update WebApp's Draft charter to reflect Eric's File specs are moving to WG Notes
18:46:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-722 - Update webapp's draft charter to reflect eric's file specs are moving to wg notes [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-04-17].
18:47:01 <adrianba> ... we are eventually going to do sandbox file system, but not started yet
18:47:06 <Zakim> -arunranga
18:47:20 <smaug> ArtB: ^
18:47:25 <adrianba> israelh: do we know how many sites use this based on Google's implementation?
18:47:36 <Zakim> +arunranga
18:47:59 <adrianba> AAA: google web sites use it
18:48:48 <adrianba> israelh: we're concerned about interop - is there enough usage to go back an implement the old one or are things converging on the new
18:48:55 <adrianba> ArtB: we agreed to stop working on the old one
18:49:09 <tyoshino> AAA = Taiju
18:49:16 <adrianba> israelh: how much continuing support will Google have for the old one
18:49:22 <adrianba> s/AAA:/Taiju:/
18:49:39 <adrianba> israelh: when will you have a more complete draft?
18:49:55 <adrianba> arunranga: i think i can probably do it in 2-3 weeks after finishing File API
18:50:08 <adrianba> ArtB: I like that priority
18:50:17 <adrianba> ... coming back to the editor's draft you do have out
18:50:34 <adrianba> ... are you expecting to add additional features?
18:50:41 <adrianba> ... looking for requests and requirements?
18:50:55 <adrianba> arunranga: no longer a question of features but of how spec'd features should work and how defined
18:51:10 <adrianba> ... if you look at the API from interface perspective then it gives good indication
18:51:14 <adrianba> ... raw API without prose
18:51:22 <adrianba> ... indication of shape but not detail
18:51:27 <adrianba> ... needs flesh on the skeleton
18:51:37 <adrianba> ArtB: includes use cases too which is handy for early review
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18:51:49 <adrianba> arunranga: use cases are similar or idential to the Google API use cases
18:51:54 <adrianba> ... it does very similar things
18:52:17 <adrianba> ... some things about Google API that we want to reverse engineer as part of this spec including, for example, file system url scheme
18:52:30 <adrianba> ... it is promises based instead of callback based system
18:52:48 <adrianba> ArtB: any other comments or questions?
18:53:04 <arunranga> cool :)
18:53:07 <adrianba> ArtB: looking forward to getting closure on the File API bugs
18:53:32 <adrianba> ... in the agenda we said we'd break for lunch at 12.30 but food is already available
18:54:02 <Zakim> -Bryan_Sullivan
18:54:02 <adrianba> ... resume at 1 - i'll adjust the schedule
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18:54:18 <arunranga> Present+ arunranga
18:54:37 <arunranga> oh hai cwilso__
18:55:22 <krisk> RRSAgent, generate minutes
18:55:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-minutes.html krisk
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19:01:47 <arunranga> exit
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19:02:01 <chaals> zakim, agenda?
19:02:01 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
19:02:25 <Zakim> -arunranga
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20:00:53 <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
20:00:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Paypal], Olli_Pettay
20:00:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see rniwa, BenjamP, opoto, bryan, skddc, kochi, jcraig, xiaoqian, paul___irish, hayato, krijnhoetmer, tobie__, morrita, slightlyoff_, dfreedm_, anssik, cwilso__,
20:00:55 <Zakim> ... timeless_, jungkees, scheib__, jsbell, dcooney, wonsuk, dglazkov, cabanier__, krit, tyoshino, hober, falken, Domenic_, pdr__, gavin, astearns, plh, israelh, dsr, Bin_Hu, tzik,
20:00:58 <Zakim> ... jmajnert, smaug, jhazen, darobin, arrrno, RRSAgent, Zakim, adrianba, aizu, ArtB, lmclister, chaals, shepazu, jgraham, decadance, gsnedders, heycam, schuki, mounir, logbot,
20:00:58 <Zakim> ... stryx`, Hixie
20:01:05 <Zakim> + +1.425.264.aaaa
20:01:28 <bryan> zakim, aaaa is bryan
20:01:28 <Zakim> +bryan; got it
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20:02:49 <krisk> krisk has joined #webapps
20:03:22 <krisk> scribe: krisk
20:03:38 <krisk> TOPIC: Service Workers
20:03:43 <zqzhang> zqzhang has joined #webapps
20:03:51 <nhiroki> nhiroki has joined #webapps
20:03:56 <jungkees> http://slightlyoff.github.io/ServiceWorker/spec/service_worker/
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20:04:10 <jungkees> Working repo: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker
20:04:12 <ArtB> http://rawgithub.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/master/spec/service_worker/index.html -> Service Workers
20:04:20 <krisk> group looking at spec posted above...
20:05:15 <krisk> a draft of service workers exist and we are hoping to have this a webapp working group project
20:05:30 <falken> better formatting: http://slightlyoff.github.io/ServiceWorker/spec/service_worker/index.html
20:05:35 <krisk> ..since a number of people can participate more in this group than when just on github
20:06:06 <krisk> israelh: We have concerns about perf, additonal requests for example
20:06:29 <jinsong> jinsong has joined #webapps
20:06:30 <krisk> alex: one pattern we have observed is that webdevs try to preempty this issue
20:06:36 <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
20:06:43 <genelian_> genelian_ has joined #webapps
20:07:13 <krisk> alex: we are aware and want to get feedback from webdevs and have a number of google props that value performance
20:07:31 <krisk> ..it's a choice of the userAgent to use a service work or not
20:07:35 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:07:44 <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
20:07:44 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
20:07:54 <krisk> ..so a useragent can choose not to use a service worker (under memory pressure)
20:08:01 <krisk> ..and it's all async
20:08:24 <tantek> tantek has joined #webapps
20:08:25 <krisk> ..so once the intial event is fired it can't block since it's async
20:08:39 <krisk> ..so that background processing can do the work
20:08:40 <alia> alia has joined #webapps
20:08:57 <krisk> ..we have removed all sync apis - xhr, indexeddb
20:09:37 <krisk> ..you can send work to the service worker to help
20:09:52 <krisk> ..you can warm up dns w/o a service worker
20:09:56 <horo> horo has joined #webapps
20:10:19 <krisk> ..we think we have done a good first pass on perf and want to get good data from real systems and then do another pass
20:10:28 <krisk> ..we have options but need more use cases
20:10:50 <krisk> ...For example a lifetime header you could help
20:11:44 <krisk> ..Further we have discussed creating a map or longer term cache, but are not planning for this api in V1
20:12:18 <krisk> ..we can imagine a few scenarios, ask for online then upon fail use offline..
20:12:39 <krisk> ..but we have at google incountered that http status codes didn't help make this call
20:13:06 <krisk> israelh: Where are you keeping this possible plans for the future?
20:13:29 <krisk> alex: The spec text is mostly normative, maybe a seperate doc in github
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20:13:42 <krisk> israel: how does this work with appcache?
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20:14:11 <krisk> alex: We don't know what will have as service work gains adoption and appcache remains flat
20:14:27 <krisk> ..one could be that no app cache if service work
20:14:42 <krisk> ..another could be that app cache gets first access
20:15:07 <krisk> israel: I was wondering about how other eventing could plug in?
20:15:38 <krisk> alex: I want to be very clear that the service worker will have normative requirement about the events
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20:15:55 <krisk> ..web sites should work with or without a service work
20:16:15 <krisk> ..we hope that others can write mixins
20:16:28 <krisk> ..we have a bug that will explain how to add a no-opt event
20:16:52 <krisk> ..we think this would be an attractive spot for other specs that would want to do background work
20:17:04 <krisk> ..for v1 we expect to move others out (fetch)
20:17:16 <krisk> alex: any other qs?
20:17:29 <krisk> israel: when is the right time to get plugged in?
20:17:44 <krisk> alex: we have list of issues, but we are not blocked on anything
20:18:02 <krisk> ..once the wg declares this is a formal activity we can start talking
20:18:17 <krisk> hober: what about fixme?
20:18:24 <krisk> alex: I think we are in good shape..
20:18:59 <krisk> artb: We think that this is part of app cache and is in scope and will be expanded in the next charter
20:19:11 <krisk> ..so that we could indeed publish a FPWD in webapps
20:19:23 <krisk> artb: any disagreement?
20:19:45 <krisk> artb: If anyone objects to doing this publish?
20:20:03 <krisk> ACTION: artb CFC for FPWD for service workers
20:20:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-723 - Cfc for fpwd for service workers [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-04-17].
20:20:09 <krisk> ..no one objects
20:20:23 <krisk> israel: what about media ones?
20:20:39 <krisk> alex: we have a few ones (rtc, websocket)...
20:21:06 <krisk> ..we have a design challenge here to handle this types..
20:21:27 <krisk> ..hopefully as the stream apis expand they could be used in another manner
20:22:22 <krisk> ..we fought really hard about promises at tc39, whatwg and this took much longer and am happy to let someone else fight this battle
20:22:38 <krisk> artb: any more comments of questions about service workers?
20:23:12 <krisk> israel: Are you sharing code with Moz?
20:23:20 <krisk> alex: no only working on the design
20:23:39 <krisk> artb: if nothing else on service workers let's move on..
20:23:44 <krisk> TOPIC: PUSH API
20:24:21 <Ferasm> Ferasm has joined #webapps
20:24:21 <ArtB> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/push/raw-file/tip/index.html -> Push API
20:24:33 <sicking> sicking has joined #webapps
20:25:06 <krisk> bryan: The current editor draft...
20:25:06 <adrianba> zakim, code?
20:25:06 <Zakim> the conference code is 9274 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), adrianba
20:25:21 <mounir> mounir has changed the topic to: the conference code is 9274
20:25:51 <krisk> * zakim be nice to bryan...
20:25:51 <Zakim> +Bryan_Sullivan
20:26:01 <Zakim> -bryan
20:26:01 <krisk> * thank you zakim..
20:26:22 <krisk> bryan: Their are a number of changes that I listed in the email
20:26:45 <ArtB> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014AprJun/0108.html -> Bryan's Push API status
20:26:47 <krisk> Some of the discussion were offline with moz, google
20:27:01 <krisk> ..some are old from last tpac
20:27:15 <krisk> ..in the mean time we have shelved some items..
20:27:26 <krisk> ..add message body
20:27:50 <krisk> ..discussion about supporting other systems but not change the api
20:28:21 <krisk> ..I can go over the changes or introduce them right now
20:28:31 <ArtB> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=Push%20API&resolution=--- -> Bugs for Push API
20:29:09 <krisk> sicking: I think we should talk about issue with the spec, since walking through each item would take a long time
20:29:32 <krisk> bryan: I have started to add service work useage
20:29:50 <krisk> ..I added persistance to registration from TAG feedback
20:30:27 <krisk> ..and some other TAG feedback (express permission)
20:30:48 <krisk> ..does anyone have any comments on this draft spec?
20:30:50 <sicking> q+
20:31:10 <krisk> israel: Can you explain how push api uses/relates to service worker
20:31:32 <krisk> alex: We don't want a page to live longer that the page is visible
20:31:48 <krisk> ..push should only run when browser is shutdown
20:32:00 <krisk> ..when we surface a push to a tab
20:32:05 <mounir> q+ to point that registerOptions should be defined
20:32:30 <krisk> ..the service work allows use to support both scenarios
20:32:53 <krisk> ..for example should an IFRAME be able to reg for push events?
20:33:12 <krisk> ..this is a good question that I don't think we'll figureout today
20:33:49 <krisk> israel: From what I was reading, when the app is not running, page loaded the service work acts as a proxy and does the work and waits until UI
20:34:26 <MikeSmith> q?
20:34:43 <MikeSmith> ArtB, queue
20:34:48 <krisk> alex: you could image that you could provide an alert then possibly open/launch the app
20:34:57 <krisk> alex: this should be ua dependent
20:35:09 <sicking> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014JanMar/0712.html
20:35:12 <krisk> ack sicking
20:35:21 <krisk> sicking: I just sent to the list (week ago)
20:35:38 <krisk> ..on the topic of passing additonal things to the service call
20:35:48 <krisk> ..we have concerns with this..
20:36:38 <krisk> ..we have a client side api that we are working on standardized an the server side stopped.
20:37:04 <krisk> ..later we had not use a standard for client side api
20:37:23 <krisk> ...so it seem that this is not really getting standardized
20:37:55 <krisk> alex: Some push api's require meta data to not get overloaded
20:38:09 <bryan> I would not say that we have given up on standardizing the Push Server API, the message I got from discussions is that this does not seem a short-term opportunity for some operators of Push services.
20:38:09 <krisk> ..how is moz going to deal with this?
20:38:28 <krisk> sicking: I can comment on how this would work on android
20:38:39 <mounir> q- mounir
20:38:39 <hober> s/can comment/can't comment/
20:39:26 <krisk> sicking: the current solution is not a standard, apis are diff and a dev has to use different apis for different devices
20:40:01 <krisk> alex: chrome for iOS will use an apple environment, but on android it will be differenet
20:40:21 <krisk> sicking: I don't see how this is a standard solution
20:40:29 <krisk> alex: sure it is
20:40:30 <bryan> q+ to ask jonas, by "different APIs", I guess you mean different end-to-end system designs, not the API exposed in the browser, correct?
20:41:22 <krisk> sicking: it doesn't seem we are creating a standard that is actually a standard
20:42:10 <krisk> alex: the registration call is optional and ua dependant
20:43:10 <bryan> IMO the detailed variance in the configuration parameters of different systems is analogous to the codec issue in HTML5 video or WebRTC - the API is a mechanism to expose a particular media, in this case a delivery system, that may differ in details opaque to the API, and do in fact require different app/content designs per browser - that is not a show stopper for HTML5, why should it be for
20:43:10 <bryan> this API?
20:43:25 <krisk> alex: I'd like to hear how you are doing this on android
20:43:41 <krisk> sicking: I'll have someone follow back with this feedback, the person was not able to attend
20:43:54 <sicking> q+
20:43:55 <krisk> ack mounir
20:44:00 <krisk> ack bryan
20:44:00 <Zakim> bryan, you wanted to ask jonas, by "different APIs", I guess you mean different end-to-end system designs, not the API exposed in the browser, correct?
20:44:12 <krisk> bryan: what do you mean by different apis?
20:44:22 <krisk> ..see my comment in IRC above..
20:44:44 <krisk> ..the systems in place won't get changed right away
20:45:05 <krisk> ..we have apis' that are standardized an will require devs to adopt and change
20:45:30 <krisk> ..html5 video is a good example that we should follow
20:45:41 <krisk> sicking: I'm not just talking about northbound api
20:45:48 <krisk> ..I'm taking about southbound apis
20:45:57 <skddc_> skddc_ has joined #webapps
20:46:03 <krisk> ..since they now also have to have different apis
20:46:11 <krisk> bryan: in the browser
20:46:13 <krisk> sicking: yes
20:46:20 <krisk> alex: are you proposing something?
20:46:34 <krisk> sicking: we had a proposal and it got shot down.
20:47:02 <krisk> ..we decided to start with the client side (browser) to start and then it got worse and required this to be changed again
20:47:28 <krisk> ..which is sad because client side javascript apis have to be different code
20:47:37 <krisk> alex: to be clear this in on different systems
20:48:03 <krisk> bryan: how do you see that these are different
20:48:34 <krisk> alex: we have a number of these
20:49:07 <krisk> ..systems
20:49:46 <krisk> sicking: how does this new stuff add value as what we had in the past
20:50:24 <krisk> sicking: different ua's need different stuff to be passed in and required argument is need and will be different
20:50:47 <krisk> alex: maybe we can have something off navigator
20:51:02 <krisk> sicking: you'll still end up with differences..
20:51:25 <krisk> alex: having a standard that covers a large portion in mostly the same way has alot of value
20:51:52 <krisk> mounir: we are looking to not having to call register
20:52:16 <krisk> sicking: at least then we would accomplish something
20:52:20 <mounir> s/to call register/to pass a sender id/
20:52:29 <krisk> alex: if we all agree that what you propose then great
20:52:39 <smaug> (html5 video is bad example to follow. It has been a great mess.)
20:52:56 <krisk> sicking: we are building something that is not a standard and will have to have a big case statement
20:53:17 <krisk> alex: I agree though in the short term this is a good start
20:53:38 <krisk> hober: He is asking how this improves over the status quo
20:54:19 <Hixie> smaug++
20:54:35 <Hixie> smaug: (side note: please tell the <picture> guys that!)
20:54:44 <bryan> q+ to ask Jonas again, to enumerate what will be the big differences in how developers will need to use the API, that would prevent it from being viewed as a "standard"
20:54:59 <krisk> how would one right tests if test has to support different calls for each browser
20:55:44 <krisk> alex: it's about a better future direction which would at some point require no need to call register
20:56:14 <krisk> israel: It sounds like you have figure out who and what is supported and then make the calls.
20:57:01 <krisk> sicking: It seem that this has no value and we should just tell webdev everyone is differend and to expect to use diff calls
20:58:05 <krisk> hober: what I hear sicking saying is that it seems that we don't need to standardized this small bit given all the other parts are not standardized
20:59:19 <krisk> bryan: I disagree, we do this in other parts...
20:59:47 <krisk> sicking: this api has three parts most complex is the server side
20:59:53 <krisk> ..next is the registration part..
21:00:05 <krisk> we are giving up on standardizing these two..
21:00:31 <krisk> ..and now that we are giving up the last one..
21:00:44 <krisk> sicking: I agree that this is alot like html video
21:01:20 <krisk> ..but it's not working in practice and it's resulting in no video, less video or webdevs resorting to using flash
21:01:27 <ArtB> q+ re time check
21:01:51 <krisk> sicking: But in the video spec the api is quite large and works across various browser
21:02:18 <wjs> wjs has joined #webapps
21:02:48 <krisk> sicking: if it was truely optional and would work then I would be OK
21:03:07 <krisk> sicking: To be clear it needs to work
21:03:20 <krisk> alex: well you can call it but it will fail
21:03:28 <krisk> people laugh..
21:03:41 <krisk> sicking: the registration calls are a problem
21:03:58 <krisk> artb: we have exceed the time for this topic so lets wrap it up...
21:04:25 <krisk> sicking: you have 30 seconds, alex 30 seconds..
21:04:41 <krisk> artb: thanks and continue on mail list and bugzilla
21:05:16 <krisk> rrsagent, generate minutes
21:05:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-minutes.html krisk
21:05:41 <bryan> The registerOptions and body are both optional in the current draft - they are intended to be truly that and if there is any reason this optionality is suspect or a problem for developers, let's clarify how. At this point I see little if any problem with the variance in systems between browsers.
21:06:13 <ArtB> http://w3c.github.io/manifest/ -> Manifest spec
21:06:20 <krisk> TOPIC: Manifest For Web Apps
21:06:46 <krisk> marcos: I wanted to open this up for questions
21:07:06 <krisk> ..we are looking at this as an enhancment for webapps
21:07:35 <krisk> ..basically give you base metadata for the app (icons, pin to screen)
21:07:45 <krisk> Looking at example 1
21:08:14 <krisk> marcos: it has icons, start url, display (fullscreen)
21:08:19 <krisk> ..it's just json
21:08:28 <Zakim> -Bryan_Sullivan
21:08:28 <krisk> ..this is where we are at right now..
21:08:32 <Zakim> +bryan
21:08:53 <Zakim> + +1.650.946.aabb
21:08:56 <krisk> ..the idea of progressing this and open to new asks
21:09:07 <Bin_Hu> zakim, aabb is me
21:09:07 <Zakim> +Bin_Hu; got it
21:09:24 <krisk> ..we have tried to keep this simple and it's about as simple as possile
21:09:32 <krisk> s/possile/possible/
21:09:50 <krisk> ..builds upon metatags from Opera/IE
21:10:04 <krisk> ..also provides fall back to legacy items..
21:11:16 <krisk> jhazen: Microsoft/IE is indeed looking at this and we are intrested in these scenarios and more (pinning)
21:11:35 <krisk> ...but also for packaged webapp from the Store on Windows
21:11:54 <krisk> ..at first I think oh yeah and could see adding more items
21:11:57 <tantek> just added rel=manifest as defined in w3c.github.io/manifest section 5.12 to the HTML rel registry: http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values#HTML5_link_type_extensions
21:12:07 <genelian_> link: http://w3c.github.io/manifest/
21:12:12 <krisk> ..I think we need to get agreement on some more items that would be needed
21:12:23 <sicking> q+
21:12:35 <krisk> israel: do you expect other extensions to be listed?
21:12:42 <krisk> marcos: yes
21:13:23 <mounir> q+ to say that Google has plans to implement manifest in Blink
21:13:42 <bryan> q-
21:13:51 <KenjiBX> KenjiBX has joined #webapps
21:14:32 <krisk> marcos: I think we need to cover sync - store manifest vs site manifest
21:15:23 <krisk> jhazen: we would rather have this be on the website and have the 'store' suck in this information
21:15:38 <ArtB> q-
21:15:46 <krisk> ..not sure how the 'store' platforms work but this seems like the best approach
21:16:27 <chaals> [chaals wonders why we need to handle the store/live content synching, rather than let that be an implementation detail for stores]
21:16:41 <krisk> benjamp: It seem that if it's in both then it's going to get messy
21:16:53 <krisk> marcos: that is why we want to work together
21:16:58 <krisk> ack sicking
21:17:07 <krisk> sicking: I wanted to share our plans for this manifest
21:17:31 <krisk> ..we have a store with a manifest version and will update our store with this format
21:17:41 <krisk> ..you need to send our store your manifest
21:18:04 <krisk> ..I'm not sure when/how we re-download this manifest
21:18:19 <krisk> ..but we want to have out package apps to have the same manifests
21:18:19 <chaals> [Sure it gets messy in principle, but that's the store's problem as a trade-off for collecting and reproducing information in the first place (assuming that the store does some kind of checking, and only reflects checked content).]
21:18:57 <krisk> ..we tried in sysapps to standardize the full end to end scenarion and it became to complex so are starting from a smaller use case
21:19:13 <krisk> jhazen: that is our plan
21:19:36 <krisk> sicking: indeed this is not fully enough but is a good start
21:19:39 <sicking> q-
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21:19:48 <krisk> ack mounir
21:19:48 <Zakim> mounir, you wanted to say that Google has plans to implement manifest in Blink
21:20:05 <krisk> marcos: see the readme it has the v2 goals
21:20:37 <krisk> artb: one question - the editor doesn't have a link on where to participate?
21:20:39 <chaals> [The widget update spec essentially dealt with this problem, too. Maybe you could copy/paste that for JSON, and then the store's synch becomes a case of what to do with changes and how often to poll (which are implementation decisions, although the latter is presumably related to normal cache management…)]
21:20:44 <krisk> marcos: github?
21:20:57 <krisk> sicking: public-webapps would be fine
21:21:05 <krisk> marcos: sure I'll update this..
21:21:24 <ArtB> q?
21:21:30 <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
21:21:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Paypal], Olli_Pettay, bryan, Bin_Hu
21:21:30 <krisk> artb: seems like we have alot of excitement about this stuff!
21:21:32 <Zakim> On IRC I see KenjiBX_, wjs, skddc, sicking, Ferasm, horo, alia, tantek, genelian_, kochi_w3c, nhiroki, zqzhang, krisk, lgombos, rniwa, BenjamP, opoto, bryan, kochi, jcraig,
21:21:32 <Zakim> ... xiaoqian, paul___irish, hayato, krijnhoetmer, tobie__, morrita, slightlyoff, dfreedm_, anssik, cwilso__, timeless_, jungkees, scheib__, jsbell, dcooney, wonsuk, dglazkov,
21:21:36 <Zakim> ... cabanier__, krit, tyoshino, hober, falken, Domenic_, pdr__, gavin, astearns, plh, israelh, dsr, Bin_Hu, tzik, jmajnert, smaug, jhazen, darobin, arrrno, RRSAgent, Zakim,
21:21:36 <Zakim> ... adrianba, aizu, ArtB
21:22:09 <krisk> artb: looks like we are all done with this topic for the day..
21:22:29 <krisk> we'll have coffe now until 3pm
21:22:46 <krisk> zakim, generate minutes
21:22:46 <Zakim> I don't understand 'generate minutes', krisk
21:22:47 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
21:22:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-minutes.html chaals
21:23:03 <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
21:23:04 <krisk> * thanks chaals - doah!
21:23:08 <Zakim> -Bin_Hu
21:23:35 <Zakim> -bryan
21:27:35 <ArtB> Present+ Chris_Wilson, Alex_Russell, Chaals_Neville(remote), Joshua_Bell, Ted_OConnor
21:33:00 <darobin> rniwa: for calendaring reference, this is fun :) http://www.amazon.com/Calendrical-Calculations-Nachum-Dershowitz-ebook/dp/B00GA22KBE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1397165334&sr=8-1&keywords=calendar+algorithms
21:40:38 <arunranga> arunranga has joined #webapps
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21:56:22 <horo> horo has joined #webapps
21:58:07 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
21:58:23 <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
21:58:23 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
22:00:26 <Zakim> +bryan
22:00:51 <jsbell> Handy IndexedDB "v2" links:
22:01:18 <jsbell> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/IndexedDatabaseFeatures
22:01:18 <jsbell> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?bug_status=RESOLVED&component=Indexed%20Database%20API&list_id=34841&product=WebAppsWG&query_format=advanced&resolution=LATER
22:06:12 <cwilso> zakim, choose a victim
22:06:12 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose bryan
22:06:25 <cwilso> zakim, choose a victim
22:06:25 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose bryan
22:06:53 <lgombos> lgombos has joined #webapps
22:06:55 <krisk> krisk has joined #webapps
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22:07:33 <jinsong> jinsong has joined #webapps
22:07:33 <cwilso> scribenick: cwilso
22:08:01 <ArtB> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/IndexedDatabaseFeatures -> IDB v.Next Features
22:08:03 <cwilso> jsbell: dropped links (above) on iDB v2
22:08:06 <alia> alia has joined #webapps
22:08:30 <cwilso> ...not comprehensive, but between buglist and wiki, pretty good.
22:09:12 <cwilso> ...lots of ideas for things that will require more discussion - full text indexing, etc.  We want to write these down in "iDBv2".
22:09:18 <genelian_> genelian_ has joined #webapps
22:09:18 <cwilso> (general agreement)
22:09:39 <cwilso> jsbell: volunteers as editor, looks for co-editor: ali raises hand
22:10:13 <cwilso> jsbell: if there's anything other features you want to see in there, please contribute.
22:10:26 <ArtB> q+
22:11:10 <cwilso> art: this could be the first time we've start v2 work, so a couple of questions
22:11:20 <cwilso> ...1) should we issue a call for feature requests?
22:11:33 <cwilso> ...2) we have a relatively large list here, should we prioritize?
22:11:56 <zqzhang> zqzhang has joined #webapps
22:12:07 <cwilso> ...3) in terms of the spec itself, do you intend to incorporate v1, or have a delta spec?
22:12:26 <cwilso> jsbell: I agree with your questions.  On 3, I'd welcome feedback.
22:12:35 <sicking> sicking has joined #webapps
22:12:38 <sicking> q+
22:12:44 <mounir> ack ArtB
22:13:06 <cwilso> art: if we did a copy, we might be duplicating bugs that need to be fixed (in v1 and v2), but would like to hear if anyone has experience doing these.
22:13:20 <cwilso> s/these/deltas vs incorporating
22:13:21 <tantek> Zakim, what's the topic?
22:13:21 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, tantek.
22:13:35 <cwilso> topic: indexedDB v2
22:14:09 <cwilso> ade: how extensive is what needs to be done?  If it's mostly additive, an extension spec would make sense.
22:14:27 <cwilso> jsbell: the v1 spec doesn't really specify extension hooks, unfortunately.
22:14:41 <cwilso> ade: that was my question: if it's changing algorithms...
22:15:03 <cwilso> jsbell: more like inserting steps [in extant algorithms].
22:15:59 <cwilso> jonas: from a spec-writing point of view, since we'd be inserting additional steps, that might be messy.  We could try that way and back away if it's too messy.
22:16:18 <cwilso> art: all for letting jsbell and ali experiment.
22:16:22 <xiaoqian> ack sicking
22:16:23 <cwilso> (general agreement)
22:16:52 <cwilso> sicking: when it comes to features, I'd like to see us add features when multiple people agree on the feature.
22:17:05 <cwilso> marcos: is there a feature list?  (yes)
22:17:27 <cwilso> jsbell: art is proposing we broadcast that we're starting on the list, ask for prioritization and other features.
22:17:30 <cwilso> art: yes.
22:18:18 <cwilso> action: jsbell to broadcast to the list with alia that we're starting on iDB2, ask for prioritization and feature suggestions.
22:18:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-724 - Broadcast to the list with alia that we're starting on idb2, ask for prioritization and feature suggestions. [on Joshua Bell - due 2014-04-17].
22:19:14 <cwilso> israelh: what about Promise compatibility?
22:19:47 <cwilso> jsbell: current model is pretty tied to event model.  It may be fairly extensive changes, although there is the desire to do it.  We don't have an answer yet.
22:20:42 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #webapps
22:20:59 <cwilso> israelh: we've talked about iDB as the API to be used for caching (e.g. offline).  Have you seen adoption of this pattern?  The Outlook Web Access uses ??? to cache.  Have you seen similar patterns?
22:21:12 <cwilso> jsbell: Google Docs uses it to cache for offline and editing.
22:21:48 <cwilso> marcos: met with a team who had problems because they couldn't batch the way they wanted to, so it was too slow.
22:22:28 <cwilso> jsbell: jonas and I were having a conversation about this before - promises might naively push people into this .then().then().then() pattern...
22:22:51 <cwilso> ...but promises.all would enable this.  We should have this on the list - batching.
22:23:04 <cwilso> action on jsbell to add batching to the wiki list.
22:23:04 <trackbot> Error finding 'on'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users>.
22:23:13 <cwilso> action jsbell to add batching to the wiki list.
22:23:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-725 - Add batching to the wiki list. [on Joshua Bell - due 2014-04-17].
22:24:04 <cwilso> israelh: when we set out to do indexeddb, we expected that libraries would be built on top of idb primitives as abstractions.  Curious if that's happened.
22:24:34 <cwilso> jsbell: should have a good answer to this, but don't right now.  No one super-successful library that I know of.
22:25:24 <cwilso> sicking: WRT the main things we've seen requests for: getting change notifications, mostly small things like opening a key cursor on an object store and performance.
22:25:34 <cwilso> s/change/update
22:26:27 <cwilso> jsbell: also, the fact that clear browsing data wipes iDB has forced some other notifications we've done, want to get those documented.
22:26:42 <cwilso> israelh: one more last question: how are you thinking about max limits?
22:27:56 <cwilso> sicking: what matters is the usage, we don't want to limit rows per store, but we do need to limit total store size, cache size,.... unified quota.
22:28:12 <opoto> opoto has joined #webapps
22:28:28 <cwilso> slightlyoff: would like to see an API that lets us see how much quota you're "paying" for.
22:29:02 <cwilso> jsbell: should be able to prioritize frequently visited sites, etc., too.
22:29:17 <mounir> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/screen-orientation/raw-file/tip/Overview.html -> Screen Orientation API
22:29:24 <cwilso> topic: screen orientation
22:29:37 <mounir> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&component=Screen%20Orientation&list_id=34844&product=WebAppsWG -> open bugs for screen orientation
22:30:24 <ArtB> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014AprJun/0038.html -> Mounir's Screen Orientation status
22:30:26 <cwilso> mounir: last week I updated the specs to reflect requests (e.g. from Mozilla)
22:30:43 <cwilso> mounir: if you have any questions or implementation feedback, please speak up
22:31:04 <cwilso> sicking: test suite?
22:31:10 <cwilso> marcos: I'm working on that.
22:31:19 <cwilso> sicking: I'd be excited to remove our prefix.
22:31:49 <cwilso> israelh: I think we're in the same boat as Mozilla WRT locking.
22:32:08 <cwilso> mounir: now you can lock to any of four angles; not arbitrary angle.
22:33:04 <cwilso> sicking: other feedback I don't feel quite as strongly about: some websites assume angle=0 means portrait.  On many tablets, zero is actually landscape; so implementation may force you to hold device in the wrong angle.
22:33:07 <mounir> s/any of four angles/any of four types/
22:34:25 <tantek> q+ to respond to sicking's example
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22:34:30 <cwilso> sicking: my understanding is the use case for the angle is to add that to device orientation events, so you get an orientation relative to the device not the screen (?)
22:35:02 <cwilso> mounir: not sure how to respond to that feedback.
22:35:14 <cwilso> sicking: don't call it orientation, call it something else
22:35:30 <cwilso> sicking: but don't break back compat.
22:35:32 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
22:35:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
22:35:44 <cwilso> marcos: I believe this is possible
22:36:01 <cwilso> mounir: <expresses skepticism at the size of the necessary monkeypatch> :)
22:37:03 <cwilso> tantek: what's the use case driving this feedback?
22:37:26 <adrianba> q?
22:37:52 <cwilso> mounir: I get many small use cases for angle: only real strong use case was device orientation will give you angle to the screen, but if your screen is in a different mode "up" means something else. (?)
22:38:08 <cwilso> tantek: if so, expose the lock state.
22:38:19 <cwilso> mounir: no, you want to expose the angle the screen's currently on
22:40:17 <cwilso> sicking: the use case here is if you have a racing game where you tilt the screen; if the screen is unlocked, if the user holds the device one way you'll get orientation events one way you get events in the range 85-95, flipped the other way 265-275
22:40:35 <cwilso> sicking: now that it's been shipping for a few years we can't change it.
22:41:09 <cwilso> mounir: do we expose an angle that lets developers correct for it, or do we expose a new set of events that works the right way?
22:41:14 <cwilso> mounir: maybe we should do both.
22:41:31 <cwilso> ...in case there's something else they want to do with the angle.
22:41:41 <cwilso> sicking: except people will do silly things with it.
22:41:57 <cwilso> mounir: you're concerned people will read angle instead of type
22:42:10 <cwilso> ...? they do that today because they don't have an option.
22:42:18 <cwilso> sicking: I don't share your optimism.
22:42:57 <cwilso> sicking: we should definitely give enough rope for people to hang themselves, unless we're only giving them the rope in order TO hang themselves.
22:43:36 <cwilso> sicking: unless we have a strong use case, we should just do both events and figure people who would need this use case can subtract angles.
22:43:42 <mounir> q+
22:43:46 <mounir> q- tantek
22:43:54 <sicking> q-
22:44:10 <cwilso> israelh: seems like people would want to see the native orientation of the screen.
22:44:21 <cwilso> mounir: you can get this from type and angle.
22:45:13 <cwilso> mounir: not sure what the purpose is; this is pretty easy to determine.
22:46:09 <cwilso> israelh: just seems like most APIs that do this expose the native orientation.
22:46:24 <cwilso> marcos: cheap and easy!  Instant win!
22:46:34 <cwilso> mounir: it's ONE LINE, dude!
22:47:13 <cwilso> sicking: it's not even a new event, it's one property.  It's wafer-thin.
22:47:16 <ArtB> q?
22:47:22 <ArtB> ack mounir
22:47:34 <mounir> q+
22:47:49 <cwilso> mounir: <you have failed to beat me into submission yet>
22:48:08 <cwilso> sicking: it should be easier to do the right thing.
22:48:26 <cwilso> mounir: I would prefer if we consider these issues as orthogonal.
22:48:47 <mounir> q?
22:50:08 <mounir> ack mounir
22:50:13 <cwilso> mounir: most systems can't tell what the default orientation is, particularly when locked.  that's why I shied away from exposing here.
22:50:48 <cwilso> art: were there other points to raise, other questions?  Only other thing I had was a message from Lars...
22:50:50 <ArtB> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014AprJun/0057.html -> Lars
22:51:12 <cwilso> art: someone from the group should reply to Lars.  Marcos, did you agree to reply?
22:51:29 <cwilso> marcos: I think I told him before the core IG would take that up, because I think that is quite vital.
22:51:38 <cwilso> action: marcos to reply to Lars
22:51:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-726 - Reply to lars [on Marcos Caceres - due 2014-04-17].
22:52:34 <cwilso> art: I think we're done with this topic, then.
22:52:52 <cwilso> topic: web workers v2
22:53:10 <hober> Hixie: ^^
22:54:49 <ArtB> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014JanMar/0442.html -> Discusion on p-webapps
22:55:28 <adrianba> q+
22:55:33 <cwilso> art: there was some discussion in Shenzhen about WWv2; Travis agreed to take up the action, but nothing much occurred.
22:55:43 <cwilso> art: don't know what the priority of this would be.
22:56:14 <cwilso> ack adrianba
22:57:11 <cwilso> adrianba: I think the concern at SZ was that we were getting blocked on shared workers, so wanted to crack that out; but that seems to have unblocked.
22:57:29 <cwilso> sicking: we don't have event source at all; somewhat behind on shared workers
22:57:43 <smaug> s/at all/at all in workers/
22:57:48 <cwilso> art: what should we talk about?  you guys wanted to add this.
22:58:10 <cwilso> sicking: interested in blob: situation, don't know if that needs v2 or just clarification.
22:58:47 <cwilso> sicking: interested in synchronous message passing for dedicated workers; don't need if that needs further discussion, since we are the only ones that have committed to implement.
22:58:47 <ArtB> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=Web%20Workers%20%28editor%3A%20Ian%20Hickson%29&list_id=34849&product=WebAppsWG&resolution=--- -> Web Workers bug
22:59:36 <cwilso> sicking: maybe it's too early to start a v2 at this point, just need to clarify the blob: url conversation.
22:59:51 <cwilso> art: sounds like we're done with this topic, then.
23:00:21 <cwilso> art: only other topic for today was administrative stuff:
23:01:06 <cwilso> robin: I volunteer to scribe tomorrow morning.
23:01:15 <cwilso> scribenick: mounir
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23:02:29 <mounir> Topic: friday agenda
23:02:40 <mounir> ArtB: I don't think there is anything else than Web Components... anything else?
23:02:46 <mounir> (... silence...)
23:02:56 <mounir> ArtB: ok, lets do Web Components tomorrow
23:03:01 <mounir> Topic: Admin - copying specs
23:03:13 <mounir> marcos: there are a bunch of spec copying from another standards
23:03:26 <mounir> ... organization to this organization and they fall out of date
23:03:39 <mounir> ... anything people search for stuff they end up looking
23:03:43 <mounir> ... at the wrong specification
23:03:52 <mounir> ... the idea is to have "one spec to rule them all"
23:03:57 <mounir> ArtB: is it a webapp specific issue?
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23:04:05 <mounir> marcos: yes, because webapps in the worse offender
23:04:10 <mounir> ArtB: can we quantify that?
23:04:25 <mounir> marcos: I would like people to voice their concerns
23:04:32 <mounir> darobin: I agree it is a problem
23:05:05 <mounir> Yves: is it a problem because specs are no longer up to date?
23:05:25 <mounir> marcos: the spec on TR is from 2012 but was updated a lot
23:05:37 <mounir> ... since then and its hard to know if its up to date or not
23:05:41 <mounir> ... generally speaking
23:05:58 <mounir> ArtB: I agree that it's not really... there is a general problem
23:06:08 <mounir> ... we might want to have a rule that say that we should not
23:06:15 <mounir> ... do this anymore in webapps unless someone commit to
23:06:19 <mounir> ... keep it out of date
23:06:23 <mounir> tantek: it's a waste of time
23:06:34 <mounir> ArtB: maybe we could say in the header that we would never
23:06:52 <mounir> ... publish this thing ever again until the spec is updated?
23:07:11 <mounir> darobin: I agree it's probably the best we can do at the
23:07:20 <mounir> ... webapps level but we could do better at the w3c level
23:07:29 <mounir> ... if you are interested, feel free to contact me or tantek
23:07:35 <mounir> ... we are looking for input and suggestions
23:07:54 <mounir> tantek: marcos, we should list the different issues to find
23:08:00 <mounir> ... solutions because some might be easy and some hard
23:08:08 <mounir> ... for example, changing google search results
23:08:21 <mounir> marcos: we had issues with specs being rejected because they
23:08:29 <mounir> ... were referring whatwg specs
23:08:36 <mounir> tantek: I believe we work on that at a AB level
23:09:07 <mounir> ... for example, if there is a reference in mounir's spec
23:09:17 <mounir> ... to an old spec, we should fix that
23:09:45 <mounir> tantek: I think that we should not find an editor just for
23:09:55 <mounir> ... copying whatwg specs, it's a waste of time
23:10:06 <mounir> ArtB: I haven't said it's a good option, but that it is an option
23:10:22 <mounir> tantek: this said, it's worth noting that having WD
23:10:35 <mounir> ... helps with IP stuff so we might want that
23:10:45 <mounir> .. I don't know of any other steps?
23:10:50 <mounir> s/.. I/... I/
23:10:59 <mounir> Adrian: recommendation
23:11:09 <mounir> phl: it's actually when most of the IPR happens
23:11:28 <Zakim> -bryan
23:11:32 <mounir> ArtB: something we could do is having something in the spec
23:11:43 <mounir> ... saying "we are only publishing this for attorneys, if you
23:11:53 <mounir> ... are not an attorney, look at this instead"
23:12:04 <mounir> ... I'm not saying it's a good option but it's a solution
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23:13:08 <mounir> ryosuke: linking to the latest spec isn't always the right
23:13:21 <mounir> ... thing because sometimes you want to link to something
23:13:29 <mounir> ... that are also two years old
23:13:46 <mounir> marcos: as an editor, it's your responsibility to check
23:13:55 <mounir> ... for reference changes
23:14:30 <mounir> marcos: the entire points to version thing is not a good idea
23:15:12 <mounir> ArtB: any other comments about that particular topic?
23:15:17 <mounir> ArtB: any other admin stuff?
23:15:54 <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
23:15:59 <mounir> ArtB: that will be it for today, thanks everyone
23:17:04 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
23:17:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
23:17:29 <Zakim> -[Paypal]
23:17:30 <Zakim> IA_WebApps()12:00PM has ended
23:17:30 <Zakim> Attendees were [Paypal], Olli_Pettay, Bryan_Sullivan, arunranga, +1.425.264.aaaa, bryan, +1.650.946.aabb, Bin_Hu
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03:28:29 <ArtB> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/April2014Meeting
03:28:36 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
03:28:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
03:29:10 <ArtB> zakim, bye
03:29:10 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webapps
03:31:52 <ArtB> Scribe: Art, Philippe, KrisK, ChrisW, Robin, Adrian, Mounir
03:31:58 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
03:31:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
03:47:33 <ArtB> rrsagent, bye
03:47:33 <RRSAgent> I see 12 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-actions.rdf :
03:47:33 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow update testing info in PubStatus for DOM P&S spec [1]
03:47:33 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-irc#T16-25-49
03:47:33 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Art to follow with Tantek and Anne on next steps for fullscreen [2]
03:47:33 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-irc#T16-36-03
03:47:33 <RRSAgent> ACTION: krisk push full screen api tests into github [3]
03:47:33 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-irc#T16-37-24
03:47:33 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Kris to look at tests for Fullscreen [4]
03:47:33 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-irc#T16-37-24-1
03:47:33 <RRSAgent> ACTION: tyoshino to look at the failures on Server-Sent Events [5]
03:47:33 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-irc#T16-55-04
03:47:33 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Art to change WebMessaging test facilitator to Kris [6]
03:47:33 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-irc#T17-14-17
03:47:33 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Kris to provide test results for Web Workers [7]
03:47:33 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-irc#T17-20-00
03:47:33 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Robin to start writing a high level explainer about the pieces that are needed to put together editing [8]
03:47:33 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-irc#T18-27-15
03:47:33 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow update WebApp's Draft charter to reflect Eric's File specs are moving to WG Notes [9]
03:47:33 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-irc#T18-46-56
03:47:33 <RRSAgent> ACTION: artb CFC for FPWD for service workers [10]
03:47:33 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-irc#T20-20-03
03:47:33 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jsbell to broadcast to the list with alia that we're starting on iDB2, ask for prioritization and feature suggestions. [11]
03:47:33 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-irc#T22-18-18
03:47:33 <RRSAgent> ACTION: marcos to reply to Lars [12]
03:47:33 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-webapps-irc#T22-51-38