IRC log of ua on 2014-04-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:53:40 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-ua-irc
16:53:42 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:53:42 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:53:44 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:53:44 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
16:53:45 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:53:45 [trackbot]
Date: 10 April 2014
16:54:21 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:54:30 [jeanne]
rrsgent, make minutes
16:55:36 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
16:55:53 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
16:55:53 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
16:56:15 [jeanne]
s/rrsgent, make minutes//
16:56:21 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:56:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-ua-minutes.html jeanne
16:56:32 [kford]
agenda+ Finish Jan's OP06 comments
16:56:33 [kford]
we left off at 2.3.3
16:56:35 [kford]
agenda+ review comments
16:56:36 [kford]
comments document: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2014/LCcomments.html
16:56:38 [kford]
---
16:56:39 [kford]
Main Comment Gateway -
16:56:41 [kford]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-uaag2-comments/
16:56:58 [jeanne]
agenda+ Meeting at TPAC?
16:57:24 [kford]
agenda+ Would the group like to meet at TPAC2014 in SantaClara, CA 27-31 October 2014
16:57:34 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
16:57:34 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
16:57:35 [Zakim]
1. Finish Jan's OP06 comments [from kford]
16:57:35 [Zakim]
2. review comments [from kford]
16:57:35 [Zakim]
3. Meeting at TPAC? [from jeanne]
16:57:35 [Zakim]
4. Would the group like to meet at TPAC2014 in SantaClara, CA 27-31 October 2014 [from kford]
16:57:52 [kford]
zakim, delete agenda 4
16:57:52 [Zakim]
agendum 4, Would the group like to meet at TPAC2014 in SantaClara, CA 27-31 October 2014, dropped
16:58:04 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:58:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-ua-minutes.html kford
16:58:10 [kford]
regrets: Jim
17:00:37 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:00:44 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
17:01:09 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
17:01:11 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:01:29 [jeanne]
zakim, Microsoft is kford
17:01:29 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
17:02:03 [Zakim]
+Greg_Lowney
17:02:26 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
17:02:33 [Jan]
zakim, code?
17:02:33 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan
17:03:10 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
17:03:25 [Jan]
zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
17:03:25 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
17:06:05 [Zakim]
+Kim_Patch
17:06:42 [kford]
zakim, take up item 3
17:06:42 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Meeting at TPAC?" taken up [from jeanne]
17:06:43 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
17:07:51 [kford]
TPAC is OCT 27-31 in Santa Clara.
17:09:13 [jeanne]
We could request Monday - Tuesday
17:09:29 [kford]
Group saying we would like to meet 10/27-28. Will explore funding.
17:09:59 [kford]
zakim, close item 3
17:09:59 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Meeting at TPAC?, closed
17:10:00 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:10:00 [Zakim]
1. Finish Jan's OP06 comments [from kford]
17:10:29 [kford]
zakim, take up item 1
17:10:29 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Finish Jan's OP06 comments" taken up [from kford]
17:14:58 [Greg]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2014/LCcomments.html
17:15:09 [Jan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014JanMar/0046.html
17:17:55 [jeanne]
Minutes from 13 March -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014AprJun/0000.html
17:20:45 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
17:20:57 [Greg]
The latest draft wording on 13 March was:
17:20:59 [Greg]
Jan's update: 2.3.1 Allow Direct Navigation to Enabled Elements: The user can move keyboard focus directly to any enabled elements in the rendered content. (Level AA)
17:21:22 [Jan]
EDIT 2.3.1 Allow Direct Navigation to Enabled Elements: The user can move keyboard focus directly to any enabled elements in the rendered content. (Level AA)
17:21:51 [Jan]
EDIT 2.3.3 Allow Direct Activation of Enabled Elements: The user can perform an activation action on any enabled element in the rendered content. (Level A)
17:22:42 [Jan]
GL: Element->Elements: 2.3.3 Allow Direct Activation of Enabled Elements: The user can perform an activation action on any enabled elements in the rendered content. (Level A)
17:23:35 [Greg]
Actually I felt "element" should be singular in the SC (not title), as a command can't move focus to multiple elements at one time.
17:24:02 [Jan]
KP: But should move the focus as well
17:24:36 [Jan]
2.3.1 Allow Direct Navigation to Enabled Elements: The user can move keyboard focus directly to any enabled element in the rendered content. (Level A)
17:25:50 [Jan]
2.3.3 Allow Direct Activation of Enabled Elements: The user can, in a single action, move keyboard focus to any enabled element in the rendered content and perform an activation action on that element. (Level AA)
17:26:14 [Jan]
2.3.3 Allow Direct Activation of Enabled Elements: The user can, in a single action, move keyboard focus directly to any enabled element in the rendered content and perform an activation action on that element. (Level AA)
17:29:32 [Jan]
JR: Do people like wording (leaving aside level)?
17:29:34 [Jan]
KP: Yes
17:29:48 [Jan]
GL: Tiny bit of ambiguity, but good enough
17:30:27 [jeanne_]
jeanne_ has joined #ua
17:30:45 [kford]
I lost all my connectivity about 10 minutes ago.
17:31:10 [kford]
are you still on the phone?
17:31:14 [Jan]
JR: We should wait for the chair....
17:31:19 [kford]
Now when I dial in, thereis no answer
17:31:23 [Jan]
Yes we are all on the phone
17:32:19 [kford]
I keep trying and have been for like 10 minutes
17:33:04 [Jan]
Now we've lost Kelly from IRC
17:33:41 [Greg_]
Greg_ has joined #ua
17:34:35 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
17:35:12 [Jan]
Can I call you on Skype?
17:35:48 [Jan]
I'm calling you on Skype...but the call failed
17:36:42 [Jan]
Kelly, do you agree with the following wording:
17:36:48 [Jan]
2.3.1 Allow Direct Navigation to Enabled Elements: The user can move keyboard focus directly to any enabled element in the rendered content.
17:36:54 [Jan]
2.3.3 Allow Direct Activation of Enabled Elements: The user can, in a single action, move keyboard focus directly to any enabled element in the rendered content and perform an activation action on that element.
17:37:38 [Jan]
zakim, Jan has Kelly
17:37:38 [Zakim]
+Kelly; got it
17:38:27 [Jan]
KF: OK
17:38:38 [Jan]
KF: OK with new 2.3.1 and 2.3.3 wording
17:39:07 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to update document with new 2.3.1 and 2.3.3 wording above.
17:39:07 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-963 - Update document with new 2.3.1 and 2.3.3 wording above. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-04-17].
17:42:08 [Jan]
KP: From speech point of view, nav+activation is more important
17:42:32 [Jan]
KP: It would be more rare to do nav alone
17:43:16 [Jan]
JS: Classic example is screen reader user trying to nav a list but it activates items as you try to navigate the list
17:43:41 [Jan]
JS: I like AA for both
17:43:46 [Jan]
JR: I could live with that
17:44:11 [Jan]
KP: I can live with AA for both
17:44:47 [Jan]
GL: I can live with AA...but making me think about lengthy doc navigation
17:45:21 [Jan]
GL: Could use structured nav?
17:45:31 [Jan]
GL Maybe page-down
17:46:28 [Jan]
JS: When deciding levels... we said A would be solved an absolute barrier, was easy to implement, helped many people
17:46:50 [Jan]
KF: OK with Level AA
17:47:08 [Jan]
Resolution: All agree on: 2.3.1 Allow Direct Navigation to Enabled Elements: The user can move keyboard focus directly to any enabled element in the rendered content. (Level AA)
17:47:44 [Jan]
Resolution: All agree on 2.3.3 Allow Direct Activation of Enabled Elements: The user can, in a single action, move keyboard focus directly to any enabled element in the rendered content and perform an activation action on that element. (Level AA)
17:49:16 [kford]
yes I'm fine with this
17:49:46 [Jan]
Resolution: When re-numbering, put 2.3.1 followed immediately by the 2.3.3
17:49:55 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to renumber in this order: 2.3.1, 2.3.3, 2.3.2
17:49:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-964 - Renumber in this order: 2.3.1, 2.3.3, 2.3.2 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-04-17].
17:50:07 [Jan]
Topic: EDIT (to match 1.9.1) 2.5.2 Provide Structural Navigation
17:52:20 [Jan]
JR: Only change is more general handle and added "content sections"
17:52:27 [Jan]
GL: Should we add recognized?
17:54:02 [Jan]
2.5.2 Provide Structural Navigation: The user agent provides at least the following types of structural navigation, where the recognized structure types are present: (Level AA) - By heading - By content sections - Within tables
17:54:51 [Jan]
2.5.2 Provide Structural Navigation: The user agent provides at least the following types of structural navigation, where the following structure types are recognized: (Level AA) - By heading - By content sections - Within tables
17:55:14 [Jan]
2.5.2 Provide Structural Navigation: The user agent provides at least the following types of structural navigation, where the structure types are recognized: (Level AA) - By heading - By content sections - Within tables
17:55:24 [Jan]
GL: Looks good
17:55:27 [Jan]
JR: +1
17:55:34 [Jan]
KP: Good
17:55:38 [jeanne]
+1
17:55:40 [Jan]
JS: Good
17:55:45 [Jan]
KF: Fine
17:56:02 [Jan]
Resolution: All agree to: 2.5.2 Provide Structural Navigation: The user agent provides at least the following types of structural navigation, where the structure types are recognized: (Level AA) - By heading - By content sections - Within tables
17:56:14 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to update 2.5.2 with new wording: 2.5.2 Provide Structural Navigation: The user agent provides at least the following types of structural navigation, where the structure types are recognized: (Level AA) - By heading - By content sections - Within tables
17:56:14 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-965 - Update 2.5.2 with new wording: 2.5.2 provide structural navigation: the user agent provides at least the following types of structural navigation, where the structure types are recognized: (level aa) - by heading - by content sections - within tables [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-04-17].
17:56:18 [Jan]
Topic: REMOVE 2.5.3 Allow Elements to be Configured for Structural Navigation
17:56:40 [Jan]
2.5.3 Allow Elements to be Configured for Structural Navigation: The user can configure a set of important elements (including element type) for structured navigation and hierarchical/outline view. (Level AAA)
17:57:26 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2014/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20140410/#sc_253
17:59:38 [Jan]
KF: I think lots of users would use this
17:59:52 [Jan]
KF: I go to lots of web pages regularly
18:00:04 [Jan]
s/KF/KP
18:00:29 [Jan]
KP: People do same things over and over....and ineffecient
18:02:22 [Jan]
2.5.3 Allow Elements to be Configured for Structural Navigation: The user can configure which elements are used for structural navigation and outline views. (Level AAA)
18:02:42 [Jan]
1.9.1 Outline View: Users can view a navigable outline of rendered content composed of labels for important elements, and can move focus efficiently to these elements in the main viewport. (Level AA)
18:02:44 [Jan]
- Note: The important elements depend on the web content technology, but may include headings, table captions, and content sections.
18:03:08 [Jan]
That was current wording...
18:03:14 [Jan]
1.9.1 Outline View: Users can view a navigable outline of the rendered content that allows focus to be moved to the corresponding element in the main viewport. (Level AA) - Note: The elements reflected in the outline view will depend on the web content technology and may include: headings, table captions, and content sections.
18:05:11 [Greg]
Note: It is recommended that the user agent allow users to customize which elements are included in the outline view.
18:05:22 [Jan]
GL: Another approach would be to add a note to 1.9.1 saying it is recommended that users be able to customize which elements to include
18:07:16 [Jan]
2.5.3 Allow Elements to be Configured for Structural Navigation: The user can configure which elements are used for structural navigation and outline views. (Level AAA)
18:07:34 [Jan]
GL: 1.91. and 2.5.3 etc. should point to this
18:08:07 [Jan]
2.5.3 Configurable Structural Navigation...
18:08:12 [Greg]
"Configuring Structural Navigation and Views"?
18:08:35 [Greg]
"Configure Structural Navigation and Outline View"?
18:08:49 [Jan]
2.5.3 Configuring Structural Navigation and Views: The user can configure which elements are used for structural navigation and outline views. (Level AAA)
18:09:17 [Jan]
JR: KP, JS...handle?
18:10:11 [Jan]
2.5.3 Configure Elements for Structural Navigation and Views: The user can configure which elements are used for structural navigation and outline views. (Level AAA)
18:11:04 [Jan]
2.5.3 Configure Navigation and Views: The user can configure which elements are used for structural navigation and outline views. (Level AAA)
18:11:06 [Greg]
My pref would be the shorter "2.5.3 Configure Structural Navigation and Views", but can live with it long.
18:11:33 [Jan]
2.5.3 Configure Structural Navigation and Views: The user can configure which elements are used for structural navigation and outline views. (Level AAA)
18:11:46 [Jan]
JR:+1
18:11:52 [Jan]
KP:+1
18:11:58 [jeanne]
+1 to Greg's
18:12:07 [Jan]
GL:+1
18:12:07 [Greg]
GL +1
18:12:20 [Jan]
KF: +1
18:12:50 [Jan]
Resolution: All agree with: 2.5.3 Configure Structural Navigation and Views: The user can configure which elements are used for structural navigation and outline views. (Level AAA)
18:13:03 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to reword 2.5.3 Configure Structural Navigation and Views:
18:13:03 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-966 - Reword 2.5.3 configure structural navigation and views: [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-04-17].
18:13:05 [Jan]
Topic: REMOVE: GLOSSARY: important elements
18:13:23 [Jan]
JR: Agree to remove
18:13:29 [Jan]
KP: +1
18:13:52 [Jan]
GL: We will need to remove from summary of 1.9, 2.3
18:14:52 [Jan]
Resolution: All agree to remove "GLOSSARY: important elements" and mention of import elements from summaries (1.9 and 2.3)
18:15:51 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to remove definition of "important elements" and remove mention in the summaries of 1.9 and 2.3
18:15:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-967 - Remove definition of "important elements" and remove mention in the summaries of 1.9 and 2.3 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-04-17].
18:16:54 [Jan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014AprJun/0004.html
18:17:08 [Jan]
Scribe: Jan
18:17:28 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2014/LCcomments.html
18:18:28 [Jan]
JS: All of that "Important elements" stuff was related to comment MSO9
18:20:52 [Jan]
GL: Actually we ere on OP06
18:20:58 [Jan]
GL: An opera comment
18:21:04 [Jan]
GL: That was the last Opera comment
18:21:21 [Jan]
JR: So what's next?
18:22:42 [Jan]
JS: Maybe James Craig....AP01
18:24:44 [Jan]
JS: The working group agrees that many items in UAAG 2.0 are relatively easy to acheive with CSS and scripts bu the onus should be on user agents developers rather than users in the general public to implement these.
18:25:49 [jeanne_]
UAWG agrees that many items in UAAG2 are relatively easy to achieve with user style sheets and user scripts, but the onus for developing the style sheets and scripts should be on user agent developers rather than users.
18:26:49 [Greg]
I'm thinking that to claim compliance, the claimant needs to demonstrate compliance, which may be done with existing user style sheets and scripts. However, it is insufficient to claim that those could *in theory* be written, if none can be demonstrated.
18:28:58 [jeanne_]
UAWG agrees that many items in UAAG2 are relatively easy to achieve with user style sheets and user scripts, but the onus for developing the style sheets and scripts should be on user agent developers rather than users. To claim compliance, there must be a solution for the non-expert, not a sample of what could be done.
18:29:09 [Greg]
In order to claim compliance, the claimant must demonstrate that solutions, and any required additional components, are available to non-expert users. Enabling the creation of such solutions is not by itself sufficient.
18:29:29 [jeanne_]
UAWG agrees that many items in UAAG2 are relatively easy to achieve with user style sheets and user scripts, but the onus for developing the style sheets and scripts should be on user agent developers rather than users. To claim compliance, there must be a practical solution for the non-expert user, not just a sample of what could be done.
18:30:34 [jeanne_]
UAWG agrees that many items in UAAG2 are relatively easy to achieve with user style sheets and user scripts, but the onus for developing the style sheets and scripts should be on user agent developers rather than users. In order to claim compliance, the claimant must demonstrate that solutions, and any required additional components, are available to non-expert users. Enabling the creation of such solutions is not by itself sufficient.
18:31:03 [Jan]
Resolution: UAWG agrees that many items in UAAG2 are relatively easy to achieve with user style sheets and user scripts, but the onus for developing the style sheets and scripts should be on user agent developers rather than users. In order to claim compliance, the claimant must demonstrate that solutions, and any required additional components, are available to non-expert users. Enabling...
18:31:04 [Jan]
...the creation of such solutions is not by itself sufficient.
18:31:29 [jeanne]
Next Week: Start with AP02
18:31:35 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:31:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-ua-minutes.html jeanne
18:31:43 [Zakim]
-Greg_Lowney
18:31:47 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
18:31:49 [Zakim]
-Jan
18:32:56 [jeanne]
zakim, bye
18:32:56 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jeanne, kford, Greg_Lowney, Kim_Patch, Kelly
18:32:56 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:33:51 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes'
18:33:51 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes'', jeanne. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:34:08 [jeanne]
s/rrsagent, make minutes'//
18:34:16 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:34:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-ua-minutes.html jeanne
18:34:42 [jeanne]
regrets+ Eric
18:34:47 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:34:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-ua-minutes.html jeanne
18:35:10 [jeanne]
chair: Kelly, Jan
18:35:20 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:35:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-ua-minutes.html jeanne
18:56:08 [jeanne]
rrsagent, bye
18:56:08 [RRSAgent]
I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-ua-actions.rdf :
18:56:08 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to update document with new 2.3.1 and 2.3.3 wording above. [1]
18:56:08 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-ua-irc#T17-39-07
18:56:08 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to renumber in this order: 2.3.1, 2.3.3, 2.3.2 [2]
18:56:08 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-ua-irc#T17-49-55
18:56:08 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to update 2.5.2 with new wording: 2.5.2 Provide Structural Navigation: The user agent provides at least the following types of structural navigation, where the structure types are recognized: (Level AA) - By heading - By content sections - Within tables [3]
18:56:08 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-ua-irc#T17-56-14
18:56:08 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to reword 2.5.3 Configure Structural Navigation and Views: [4]
18:56:08 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-ua-irc#T18-13-03
18:56:08 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to remove definition of "important elements" and remove mention in the summaries of 1.9 and 2.3 [5]
18:56:08 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/04/10-ua-irc#T18-15-51