00:00:07 <krisk_> rrsagent, generate minutes
00:00:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html krisk_
00:00:23 <krisk_> rubys: meeting ar recess until tomorrow morning at 9am PST
00:01:11 <rubys> s/ar recess/at recess/
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00:03:13 <gitbot> [13syntax] 15sideshowbarker pushed 1 new commit to 06master: 02https://github.com/validator/syntax/commit/cb21b5354cc6fd939cf38e8221282c17b6f5e79d
00:03:13 <gitbot> 13syntax/06master 14cb21b53 15Michael[tm] Smith: Minor change.
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03:20:09 <gitbot> 13html/06html5_canvas_CR 14c209df3 15Jay Munro: Added clearHitRegion() and other edits...
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03:23:31 <gitbot> 13html/06html5_canvas_CR 14b17e400 15Jay Munro: added trace a path back...
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16:08:26 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-html-wg-irc
16:08:49 <joesteele> scribenick: joesteele
16:08:51 <joesteele> chair: paulc
16:09:15 <joesteele> Zakim, who is here?
16:09:15 <Zakim> sorry, joesteele, I don't know what conference this is
16:09:17 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, IanPouncey, adrianba, joesteele, rubys, ArtB, aizu, cyril, markw, plh, dsinger, paulc, glenn, acolwell, jernoble, tantek, darobin, anssik, Lachy,
16:09:17 <Zakim> ... krit, krijnhoetmer, arronei, jaymunro, denis, jgraham, wilhelm, tH, gavin, slightlyoff_, hober, cwilso__, paul___irish, decadance, tobie__, AAA_awright, gsnedders, heycam|away,
16:09:21 <Zakim> ... cabanier, johndrinkwater, Josh_Soref_, pdr, timeless_, mattur, jmb, MarkS, Philip, logbot, stryx`, Hixie, ed, MikeSmith, trackbot
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16:12:01 <plh> zakim, room for 10 for 120 minutes?
16:12:04 <Zakim> ok, plh; conference Team_(html-wg)16:12Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 120 minutes until 1812Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked
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16:12:11 <markw> .me conference bridge is still "restricted"
16:12:26 <plh> passcode is 26631
16:12:38 <plh> please use this when connecting on the bridge
16:12:42 <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)16:12Z has now started
16:12:50 <Zakim> +Aaron_Colwell
16:12:53 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:13:04 <Zakim> +[Paypal]
16:13:25 <markw> Zakim, [IPCaller] is me
16:13:25 <Zakim> +markw; got it
16:13:29 <joesteele> Zakim, who is here?
16:13:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see Aaron_Colwell, markw, [Paypal]
16:13:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see adrianba, edoyle, krisk, Arrrno, eliot, xiaoqian, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanPouncey, joesteele, rubys, ArtB, aizu, cyril, markw, plh, dsinger, paulc, glenn, acolwell,
16:13:30 <Zakim> ... jernoble, tantek, darobin, anssik, Lachy, krit, krijnhoetmer, arronei, jaymunro, denis, jgraham, wilhelm, tH, gavin, slightlyoff_, hober, cwilso__, paul___irish, decadance,
16:13:31 <paulc> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:13:32 <Zakim> ... tobie__, AAA_awright, gsnedders, heycam|away, cabanier, johndrinkwater, Josh_Soref_, pdr, timeless_, mattur, jmb, MarkS, Philip, logbot, stryx`, Hixie, ed, MikeSmith, trackbot
16:13:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see Aaron_Colwell, markw, [Paypal]
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16:13:40 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
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16:14:23 <joesteele> rrsagent, generate minutes
16:14:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html joesteele
16:14:29 <adrianba_> adrianba_ has joined #html-wg
16:14:45 <cyril> zakim, who is here ?
16:14:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see Aaron_Colwell, markw, [Paypal], [IPcaller]
16:14:46 <jdsmith> jdsmith has joined #html-wg
16:14:47 <Zakim> On IRC I see adrianba_, BobLund, adrianba, edoyle, krisk, Arrrno, eliot, xiaoqian, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanPouncey, joesteele, rubys, ArtB, aizu, cyril, markw, plh, dsinger, paulc,
16:14:47 <Zakim> ... glenn, acolwell, jernoble, tantek, darobin, anssik, Lachy, krit, krijnhoetmer, arronei, jaymunro, denis, jgraham, wilhelm, tH, gavin, slightlyoff_, hober, cwilso__,
16:14:51 <Zakim> ... paul___irish, decadance, tobie__, AAA_awright, gsnedders, heycam|away, cabanier, johndrinkwater, Josh_Soref_, pdr, timeless_, mattur, jmb, MarkS, Philip, logbot, stryx`, Hixie,
16:14:51 <Zakim> ... ed, MikeSmith
16:15:01 <joesteele> paulc: walking through the agenda first
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16:15:24 <cyril> zakim, [IPCaller] is me
16:15:24 <Zakim> +cyril; got it
16:15:52 <joesteele> paulc: this is the meila - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Apr/0058.html
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16:16:07 <joesteele> ... posted a link to the review of the pull request
16:16:20 <krisk> A number of issues are in the 'critic' tool - indeed some good tests that expose interop issues in IE and Chrome
16:16:20 <joesteele> ... some comments supplied by folks in the room
16:16:21 <krisk> https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/951
16:16:29 <Mick> Mick has joined #html-wg
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16:16:34 <joesteele> ... maybe Phillipe could give a review
16:16:47 <Mick> Mick has left #html-wg
16:16:54 <joesteele> phillipe: <discussing the review process>
16:17:12 <joesteele> ... fixed link in one of the test -- Simon saying it needs to be fixed
16:17:24 <joesteele> ... once it is addressed, people says whether is acceptable
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16:17:37 <joesteele> paulc: was Aaron notified of each of the comments?
16:17:40 <AAA_awright> AAA_awright has joined #html-wg
16:17:49 <joesteele> acolwell: hadn't been notified of some comments
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16:18:04 <joesteele> ... put saw when Kris posted to the pull request
16:18:48 <joesteele> paulc: next step is for Aaron to work with the critics and see what changes can be made
16:18:54 <joesteele> discussion of which email address should be used -- looks like Aaron was setup incorrectly
16:18:59 <joesteele> acolwell: ok -- did not know about the comments before
16:19:18 <joesteele> paulc: right -- I coped the folks sending comments and sent to you
16:19:27 <krisk> Until the critic email notification is fixed we can just make sure to make a comment in github when their is a status change
16:19:33 <joesteele> ... like to assign an action item to you for this
16:19:37 <joesteele> acolwell: ok
16:20:21 <joesteele> ACTION: acolwell to Review the comments on proposed MSE test suites in two weeks
16:20:21 <trackbot> Error finding 'acolwell'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/users>.
16:20:59 <joesteele> acolwell: resolution may take longer to figure out what the right behavior is
16:21:13 <joesteele> paulc: if you need help with github -- asl
16:21:19 <joesteele> s/asl/ask/
16:21:37 <joesteele> Topic: CR bug status of MSE
16:21:41 <joesteele> pauc: 5 of these bugs are fixed
16:21:54 <joesteele> s/pauc: /paulc: /
16:22:06 <joesteele> paulc: aaron sent out "cyril draft"
16:22:24 <joesteele> ... going to second link in the email
16:22:36 <joesteele> ... Aaron summarizes long thread about this problem
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16:22:48 <joesteele> ... some expressions of support for this direction
16:22:51 <joesteele> ... in email
16:23:37 <joesteele> acolwell: David Singers resposne talks about one of the requests
16:23:59 <joesteele> ... resolution for this I think is two remove some of the definitions MSE makes of language and tie on the track objects
16:24:10 <joesteele> s/and tie/and time/
16:24:26 <joesteele> paulc: MSE proposed to make language and time mutable -- ie change in full flight
16:24:32 <joesteele> ... lots of push back on this
16:24:48 <joesteele> ... general conclusion is that those should be fixed during the track and should not change
16:25:09 <joesteele> ... applies to audio, text, anything
16:25:25 <joesteele> ?1: user can elect to change
16:25:39 <joesteele> acolwell: proposed changes is to remove the definitions from MSE
16:25:54 <joesteele> ... MSE will conform to what HTML5 spec says does not add text for this
16:26:09 <joesteele> ... if time needs to change within a track follow HTML5 guideline
16:26:19 <joesteele> ... think that means removing the track and adding a new track
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16:26:52 <joesteele> ... second part -- one of orig. justifications is that time is not available in ISOBMFF file
16:28:16 <joesteele> ... third thing - MSE spec should be more clear around language and time
16:28:23 <joesteele> ... looking for input from David and others on how to change this MPEG spec
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16:29:39 <joesteele_> pal: one #2 have a question
16:29:51 <joesteele_> ... are you syaing this cannot be communicated via HTML5?
16:30:02 <cyril> q+
16:30:11 <joesteele_> acolwell: no - saying we would defined boxes saying what the time attributes could be -- not communicated today
16:30:18 <markw> q+
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16:30:48 <joesteele_> pal: this might exist outside the ISOBMFF package?
16:30:57 <joesteele_> acolwell: if so then the app has to deal with it
16:31:16 <joesteele_> pal: then you  are proposing to duplicate this rather than using it where is is today?
16:31:48 <joesteele_> pal: is there another way of communicating that information so it can be reflect back to the HTML attributes?
16:32:05 <joesteele_> acolwell: could probably define special docs? to do this
16:32:16 <joesteele_> paulc: pierre is looking for an API solution
16:32:24 <joesteele_> pal: trying to avoid having these boxes be a requirement
16:32:44 <joesteele_> acolwell: making time immutable seems to be most natural - but that creates a problem
16:33:01 <joesteele_> pal: would like to explore ways of doing this that do not require a new required box
16:33:17 <joesteele_> q?
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16:33:30 <BobLund> q+
16:33:30 <joesteele_> ack cyril
16:34:06 <joesteele_> cyril: I proposed with CableLabs some extensions to the DASH manifest for new roles values that would map to HTML time
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16:34:26 <joesteele_> ... I think would be a good idea to carry the time in the MP4 format for WebVTT for example
16:34:48 <joesteele_> ... I also agree with Pierre - maybe an API to set the time and language in some sort of constructor
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16:34:59 <joesteele_> ... not at just any time -- would be useful
16:35:05 <joesteele_> ack markw
16:35:18 <joesteele_> markw: the time needs to be in the manifest whatever manifest we use
16:35:28 <joesteele_> ... needs to know when it is downloaded
16:35:37 <joesteele_> ... could also be in the MP4 file but must be in the manifest
16:35:52 <joesteele_> ... also agree that there is not need to change it after construction
16:36:04 <joesteele_> ack BobLund
16:36:15 <markw> s/time needs to be/kind needs to be/
16:36:23 <joesteele_> BobLund: agree it should be in the manifest and should not be mutable
16:36:34 <joesteele_> ... but not all media formats include thi sin-band
16:36:44 <markw> s/needs to know when/application needs to know before/
16:36:49 <joesteele_> glenn: if we add something to ISOBMFF need to add for other formats
16:36:58 <joesteele_> ... seems to have been added by WebVTT folks
16:37:31 <joesteele_> cyril: need to make my contribution public and then will send to the list
16:37:44 <joesteele_> paulc: sounds like this was made to imply it is mutable at any time
16:37:54 <joesteele_> ... but having a constructor to set this would be a good idea
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16:38:16 <joesteele_> markw: have a chicken and egg problem - no point at which you can intercept construction of the track
16:38:32 <joesteele_> cyril: but when your source buffer is single track this is possible?
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16:39:00 <joesteele_> aaron: not sure what that buys us though
16:39:19 <joesteele_> s/markw: have a /acolwell: have a /
16:39:29 <joesteele_> s/aaron: /acolwell: /
16:39:38 <joesteele_> paulc: sounds like we have concensus for #1
16:39:53 <joesteele_> pal: #2 is not sufficient
16:40:17 <joesteele_> paulc: #3 we need to get these changes made to HTML5 - and what she should do about it is the next step there
16:40:28 <joesteele_> ... pal - you need to respond to this and continue the dialogue
16:40:29 <acolwell> q+
16:40:37 <joesteele_> ... we can get #1 and #3 started
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16:40:51 <joesteele_> ... Aaron think that is enough for today
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16:41:15 <joesteele_> acolwell: think we have concensus for #1 - is there an alternate proposed or should I just remove language?
16:41:33 <joesteele_> paulc: I am ok with leaving the bug open with note about waiting for concensus
16:41:49 <joesteele_> acolwell: since we are removing mutable language -- process issues?
16:41:57 <joesteele_> paulc: worry about that later
16:42:13 <joesteele_> .. .may be first of several items
16:42:36 <joesteele_> ACTION: paulc to make sure HTML5 bugs filed for item #3
16:42:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-243 - Make sure html5 bugs filed for item #3 [on Paul Cotton - due 2014-04-16].
16:42:53 <joesteele_> Topic: Last two items
16:43:11 <joesteele_> paulc: Aaron publishers an editors draft that resolve 3 of the bugs  - cyril should review
16:43:22 <joesteele_> s/publishers/published/
16:43:27 <joesteele_> cyril: will review
16:43:40 <joesteele_> Topic: Audio bytestream format
16:43:53 <joesteele_> paulc: Aaron posted this in his email -- seemed to be some support
16:44:06 <joesteele_> cyril: yes I was about to submit something for that also
16:44:25 <joesteele_> s/Last two items/Editors draft/
16:44:47 <joesteele_> cyril: question about byte range format - would work as expecte din sequence mode but not in segment mode - correct?
16:44:59 <joesteele_> acolwell: would act very similar
16:45:15 <joesteele_> s/expect din/expected in/
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16:45:24 <joesteele_> cyril: will look more carefully then
16:45:56 <joesteele_> paulc: if Aaron posts the link in that email you can contiue to provide comments
16:46:09 <joesteele_> ... Aaron more to talk about?
16:46:30 <joesteele_> acolwell: are people ok with me putting the spec in the registry?
16:46:39 <joesteele_> paulc: any objections or more time needed?
16:46:49 <joesteele_> ?2: would like to review
16:47:02 <joesteele_> paulc: please add this to email
16:47:12 <joesteele_> s/?2/jdsmith/
16:47:18 <joesteele_> s/?2: /jdsmith: /
16:47:55 <joesteele_> pal: question about Aarons concern - is the concern that when you do addsourcebuffer, you don't know how many tracks will be created?
16:48:16 <joesteele_> acolwell: application has not information to uniquely identify tracks, so would be hard for application to target tracks
16:48:20 <joesteele_> pal: go it
16:48:45 <joesteele_> paulc: reviewing email again --
16:49:04 <joesteele_> ... Aaron will hold of on making changes until more dialog about API possibilities
16:49:17 <joesteele_> ... box format will wait for more feedback from David Singer
16:49:31 <joesteele_> ... Cyril will review spec updates
16:49:41 <joesteele_> ... Jerry will take time to review audio formats
16:50:23 <joesteele_> Topic: EME discussion
16:51:22 <krisk> scribe: krisk
16:52:18 <plh> rrsagent, generate minutes
16:52:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html plh
16:52:46 <plh> Meeting: HTML Working Group face-to-face
16:53:01 <plh> Regrets: Travis
16:53:09 <krisk> We are going to be going through a number of EME Bugs
16:53:23 <MarkVickers> MarkVickers has joined #html-wg
16:53:25 <krisk> See -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Apr/0051.html
16:53:30 <paulc> q?
16:53:33 <paulc> ack ac
16:53:41 <krisk> First bug is https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25199
16:53:55 <krisk> EME should use promises
16:54:33 <krisk> TOPIC: EME Should use Promises
16:54:46 <krisk> Bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25199
16:55:06 <plh> Present: Mike, Eliot, PAL, adrian, Erika, MarkS, Jay, Bob, Kris, Robin, Jerry, Arnaud, Zhihang, Cindy, Neils, Cynthia, Glenn, plh, Sam, Paul, Tantek, Ted, Jer, David, Aaron, MarkW, Cyril, MarkV
16:55:13 <plh> Present+ Joe
16:55:25 <krisk> Which Blocks: 17750 21798 24081 24216 24771.
16:55:28 <Arrrno> Present+ Arnaud_Braud
16:56:00 <plh> plh has changed the topic to: HTML Working Group Face-to-face: passcode 26631
16:56:32 <MikeSmith> excellemente
16:56:45 <krisk> All the bugs deal with async and promises are mechanism for async
16:57:10 <krisk> At the last meeting April 1st people needed more time to think about using promises for this purpose
16:57:16 <plh> rrsagent, generate minutes
16:57:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html plh
16:57:32 <krisk> The main bug has the proposed IDL change
16:57:52 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg
16:57:54 <krisk> Any feedback?
16:58:07 <Zakim> -cyril
16:58:14 <krisk> joesteele: This is a good change and in the direction of the W3C tag
16:58:32 <krisk> ...are other changes like this going to be made in HTML5?  Or will it wait until 5.1?
16:58:56 <krisk> darobin: New apis are expected to use promises
16:59:29 <krisk> paulc: Others have been changed in last call/WD status even before promises moved out of DOM4 and into ECMA script
16:59:41 <adrianba> q+
16:59:43 <krisk> paulc: any objections?
16:59:52 <krisk> ack adrianba
16:59:53 <paulc> ack adrian
17:00:18 <krisk> adrianba: This is a good direction and change to make, but I have some detail questions
17:00:36 <krisk> ..for example I'm not sure how the promise works with the release method
17:00:45 <krisk> ..it's not clear when the promise completes
17:01:08 <krisk> ..The best approach maybe to make this change and then itterate on the details that comeout
17:01:31 <krisk> ddorwin: Yes I added a comment in the bug about this.
17:01:37 <krisk> paulc: Room agrees
17:01:38 <plh> Present+ Prabhakar_Goyal
17:01:45 <JohnJansen> Present+ JohnJansen
17:01:56 <plh> Present+ Sean_Snider
17:01:58 <krisk> paulc: I'm concerned about not discussing the other bugs that are blocked
17:02:02 <krisk> * Hi johnjan!
17:02:47 <krisk> jdsmith: We have all replied back to these bugs
17:03:18 <krisk> paulc: What I am asking for when is the next meeting and with enough next steps to know the overall status of the next meeting
17:03:45 <krisk> paulc: Maybe these 'blocked' bugs can be addressed or have progress on once the main bug is addressed (25199)
17:03:46 <joesteele_> q+
17:04:00 <krisk> ddorwin: Some of these may just be fixed or need minor changes
17:04:35 <krisk> paulc: Once the root bug is fixed can you send something to the TF on what needs to be done with the other bugs (maybe close/duped by the root bug)
17:04:48 <krisk> Action: ddorwin
17:04:54 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #html-wg
17:05:41 <krisk> Action: ddorwin to fix the main bug and propose a direction for the other 5 blocker bugs
17:05:41 <trackbot> Error finding 'ddorwin'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/users>.
17:05:48 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:06:05 <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
17:06:05 <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
17:06:29 <krisk> joesteele: Some of the bugs may not be fixed...
17:06:54 <krisk> Bug 17750, Bug 24216
17:07:31 <krisk> paulc: The right think to do is send an email that even with the async change these bugs won't be addressed
17:08:03 <krisk> joesteele: OK
17:08:53 <krisk> adrianba: I wonder if we can have this discussion now about these bugs
17:08:58 <krisk> joesteele Sure
17:09:26 <krisk> joesteele: Let discuss and email on the list
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17:09:55 <joesteele_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Apr/0004.html
17:10:30 <krisk> joesteele: The issue I'm trying to raise here - a session is composed of licenses and keys
17:10:46 <krisk> ..Load session and release assume a single content key
17:11:11 <krisk> joesteele: You can deliver keys at a higher level that a specific content stream
17:11:38 <krisk> ..if you impl release/session on a lower level it can impact a higher level
17:11:55 <joesteele_> https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/128iTMqVgI3gCPo7q1mB2RIq-iCV3og0FMfVlY0mRWOg/edit?usp=sharing
17:12:09 <joesteele_> this is the diagram I was talking about
17:12:45 <krisk> joesteele: This is from a number of DRMs
17:13:08 <krisk> joesteele: It more complex - device, player, content and wrapper keys
17:13:26 <krisk> ...The spec needs to allow the CDN manage these keys
17:13:40 <krisk> The app need to just know about two keys
17:14:14 <pal> pal has joined #html-wg
17:14:16 <krisk> ...Mark has talked about an app releasing a specific key - so that a movie can then be played on another device
17:14:40 <krisk> paulc: These are really about the API and not about the async
17:15:05 <krisk> joesteele: Yes this orthogonal to the async bug
17:15:20 <krisk> paulc: do we have a specific bug that covers supported a differenet model
17:15:39 <krisk> ddorwin: I'm not aware of such a bug
17:15:57 <joesteele_> This is the bug -- https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25218
17:15:58 <krisk> joesteele: Bug 25218 is close but nor complete
17:16:09 <krisk> s/nor/not/
17:16:34 <krisk> paulc: Is this email linked to bug #25218
17:17:03 <krisk> ddorwin: The goal is to make various systems interoperable
17:17:07 <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25218
17:17:16 <krisk> ...alot of other ways exist
17:17:28 <krisk> ..but EME is generic and simple
17:17:37 <krisk> ..the model is session based
17:18:08 <krisk> ..What happens if you load a key from another sessions, you should not do this...
17:18:22 <krisk> ..I understand the domain thing, but I don't think it's interoperable
17:18:49 <krisk> ..Likewise if it's built to support a specific device it won't work on other devices
17:19:01 <niels_t> q+
17:19:05 <krisk> ..I'm worried that do this change will cause more interop issues
17:19:11 <glenn> q+
17:19:23 <krisk> ..We should fix the common case and then move to some other complex cases
17:19:36 <krisk> ..For example web crypto..
17:19:46 <paulc> ack joe
17:19:54 <pal> q+
17:19:56 <krisk> niels_t: We do see limits in EME
17:20:08 <joesteele_> +q
17:20:13 <krisk> ..allowing the CDM to contact the license server directly
17:20:19 <krisk> ..intitlal for legacy
17:20:30 <krisk> ..but now we see additional use cases (init)
17:20:39 <krisk> ..could be allowed by this change
17:20:54 <ddorwin> q+
17:20:54 <krisk> ..it could be more of a conceptual change in the abstract
17:21:01 <markw> q+
17:21:03 <paulc> ack niels
17:21:15 <paulc> ack glenn
17:21:29 <krisk> glenn: To the comments about supporting exist solutions
17:21:42 <BobLund> q+
17:21:47 <krisk> ..EME came about to support existing systems is an implicit goals
17:22:24 <krisk> ..from cox's perspect we do have intrest in various legacy systems (adobe, microsoft, etc.) would be a major issue for adopting EME
17:22:27 <paulc> ack pal
17:22:54 <krisk> pal: At a very high level, encrypted media comes in, but I have a CDM
17:23:04 <krisk> ..I get a key and decrypt
17:23:20 <krisk> ..or a few others, so I create a connection to the CDM
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17:23:43 <krisk> ..CDM can make a call to get the right keys to the client
17:24:07 <krisk> ..This part doesn't really matter - how the keys get created by the CDM
17:24:20 <krisk> ..I don't understand how this impacts apps
17:25:26 <krisk> ddorwin: It comes down to wanting to release a single key driven by the app and impact the whole session
17:25:43 <krisk> pal: doesn't the api support this?
17:25:56 <krisk> joesteele: But this starts all over
17:26:02 <niels_t> q+
17:26:28 <krisk> ..I'm done releaseing the license for a movie the only way is to release them all
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17:27:28 <krisk> ddorwin: joe wants to release some but not all keys
17:27:47 <krisk> joesteel: The CDM can tell the app to release specific keys
17:28:06 <krisk> ..The spec says to release all keys
17:28:15 <krisk> pal: I'm just trying to understand
17:28:28 <krisk> ddorwin: I don't think the spec states this..
17:28:34 <krisk> others agree in the room
17:28:53 <krisk> glenn: But the app has no 'hints'
17:29:04 <krisk> pal: The current spec doesn't block this..
17:29:43 <krisk> pal: are we missing arguments in the release call itself?
17:30:13 <krisk> boblund: If the you want to persist some information then the CDM needs some information
17:30:44 <krisk> ddorwin: Their is ambiguity in this and they exploit this ambigutiy we have interop issues
17:31:08 <krisk> ..We are seeing this in real places that breaks interop
17:31:34 <krisk> ..This is even using the simple model that makes a Chrome, Microsoft and Adobe app not work when they should
17:31:36 <glenn> q+
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17:31:47 <pal> q+
17:31:50 <joesteele_> ack joesteele_
17:31:59 <paulc> ack dd
17:32:16 <krisk> ddorwin: I want to point out that it's not just about API compliance, it's about the behaviour you get
17:32:38 <krisk> ..So we need to not have this ambiguity
17:33:03 <joesteele_> +q
17:33:11 <krisk> ..I have seen in production this breaks interop and solve behaviour compliance and not just the API compliance
17:33:17 <paulc> ack markw
17:33:43 <krisk> markw: I think that ddorwin if correct that adding complexity is the way to go
17:33:56 <krisk> s/adding/removing/
17:34:04 <joesteele_> my goal is to *hide* the complexity not to expose it
17:34:51 <krisk> markw: The whole point about EME was to make this easy and simple which will address interop on various devices
17:35:08 <ddorwin> I agree with what Mark said above.
17:35:30 <paulc> ack bob
17:35:47 <krisk> boblund: I agree with markw that EME should make things as simple as possible
17:36:09 <krisk> boblund: But if we don't suport uses cases that are used today we are not going to get broad adoption
17:36:13 <paulc> ack niel
17:36:46 <krisk> niels_t: from my analysis side channel communication will help interop and enable broad adoption
17:37:37 <krisk> ..I don't know the limits where a specific interop issue will arise with side channel
17:38:07 <krisk> ddorwin: This won't work with current EME and impacts privacy and security (CORS)
17:39:16 <krisk> ddorwin: part of the spec process is to respect normal web security and privacy
17:39:18 <paulc> ack glenn
17:39:40 <krisk> glenn: On a release issue - release is only advisory issue, correct?
17:39:47 <krisk> ddorwin: correct
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17:39:51 <gitbot> [13html] 15darobin pushed 1 new commit to 06CR: 02https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/043fcbf6006a8c540aedd8dad0a6cf57408bab07
17:39:51 <gitbot> 13html/06CR 14043fcbf 15Robin Berjon: trailing comma in enum SelectionMode...
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17:40:11 <krisk> glenn: So adding a hint doesn't seem to increase ambiguity
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17:40:14 <gitbot> [13html] 15darobin pushed 1 new commit to 06master: 02https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/6af16dbb6b11ba3ba71a8696707ae78eaff62726
17:40:14 <gitbot> 13html/06master 146af16db 15Robin Berjon: trailing comma in enum SelectionMode
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17:40:38 <krisk> glenn: since we have not speced the UA to CDM nothing is preventing the UA to create issues
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17:40:47 <krisk> ..maybe it's not a problem between CDM and UAs
17:40:54 <paulc> q?
17:40:56 <krisk> ..I think their are options here
17:41:14 <krisk> pal: I'm trying get to the actual spec, let's talk about release
17:41:24 <krisk> ..is their a problem with release as spec'd
17:41:49 <krisk> joesteele: Yes it needs to be more specific
17:41:56 <krisk> pal: It's spec'd as a hint...
17:42:22 <krisk> joesteele: I have seem that this has become more than a hit and impacts a CDM
17:42:30 <paulc> ack joe
17:42:31 <krisk> s/hit/hint/
17:42:43 <paulc> ack pal
17:43:01 <krisk> joesteele: The last thing I wanted to point out was that adding support for domains increase complexity
17:43:40 <krisk> joesteele: We just need text in the spec that either says this is OK or gets specific
17:43:51 <krisk> ..leaving this in the domain in the CDM
17:44:26 <krisk> paulc: are their any specific bugs to change the release method?
17:44:35 <krisk> ..Because I don't see them..
17:44:48 <krisk> joesteele: Not in the bug just in the email
17:45:45 <krisk> paulc: Let's try to continue on the agenda and assume when we get to the related bug later to skip over since we had a good discussion about this issue
17:45:55 <krisk> rrsagent, generate minutes
17:45:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html krisk
18:00:12 <Mick_Hakobyan> Mick_Hakobyan has joined #html-wg
18:01:02 <joesteele_> q:
18:01:05 <joesteele_> q?
18:04:03 <krisk> TOPIC: Bug 25267 - Remove ability for in-memory sessions to be re-used
18:04:10 <krisk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25267
18:04:34 <krisk> paulc: are the dependancies correct?
18:05:09 <krisk> ddorwin: It's to deal with interop issues
18:05:23 <krisk> dorwin: I think we need to have more consistent behaviour
18:05:46 <krisk> ..when doing adaptive streaming you can get the same keys, over and over
18:05:53 <krisk> ..which will create new media sessions
18:06:12 <krisk> ..So this text was added to just re-use an existing session
18:06:32 <krisk> Paulc: is related to 25268?
18:07:05 <krisk> ddorwin: I'd like to find a new way other than this bug..basically if we fix bug 25268 it should resolve this issue
18:07:40 <krisk> pal: can we bring up the text?
18:08:13 <ddorwin> ddorwin has joined #html-wg
18:08:34 <ddorwin> 25267 is referring to the Otherwise branch of step 10 of https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/default/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#dom-createsession
18:09:20 <krisk> ddrobin: basically remove all of the checks...
18:09:35 <krisk> ..or maybe refered to in the normative note
18:10:19 <krisk> adrianba: I think it's section 6.2
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18:11:25 <joesteele_> q+
18:11:50 <paulc> ack joe
18:11:55 <krisk> ddorwin: I agree with adrianba (other than what we discussed earlier)
18:12:11 <krisk> joesteele: I need more clarity
18:12:23 <krisk> ddorwin: You would always expect a message to be fired
18:12:35 <krisk> pal: TO understand the specific
18:12:45 <krisk> ..step 10 would be changed?
18:13:11 <krisk> paulc: no in step 6 is where it will get done
18:13:28 <joesteele_> q+
18:13:47 <krisk> adrianba: yes, at the end in step 10 you can move to ready
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18:13:58 <krisk> ..basically you don't need to fire a message
18:14:19 <krisk> ..so step 6 part 2 make this required
18:14:37 <krisk> pal: request variable, what is the variable type?
18:14:51 <krisk> adrianba: the message attribute has this information
18:15:09 <krisk> pal: the proposal is to always fire the message, but could be null
18:15:39 <krisk> adrianba: could be an empty array
18:16:55 <krisk> adrianba: I think having empty messages could cause more interop issues
18:17:09 <krisk> ddorwin: I agree with adrianba
18:17:20 <krisk> joesteele: I don't here is whay..
18:17:24 <krisk> s/whay/why/
18:17:40 <krisk> one case is that the device has the key and not need to make a request
18:18:20 <krisk> ddorwin: This is not interoperable
18:18:40 <krisk> joesteele: I like the way the spec is today..
18:18:51 <krisk> paulc: what should we do with these bugs?
18:19:43 <krisk> ddorwin: I know what I'd like to do with these bugs...
18:19:58 <krisk> ...not take this change and accept 25268
18:20:25 <krisk> adrianba: I don't understand why making firing the event optional makes writitng apps harder
18:20:34 <krisk> ddorwin: This came from app devs...
18:20:55 <krisk> ddorwin: I'd like to solve the overall problem and then this goes away
18:21:24 <krisk> pal: Do we have specifics from an app dev why making this change makes it easier
18:21:59 <krisk> ddorwin: putting the app in control - maybe they want a new session is lost with this change
18:22:20 <krisk> paulc: so their is no symetry
18:22:40 <krisk> adrianba: why would you want this??
18:23:44 <krisk> pal: is it that the app started a new session and didn't get a new key from the cdm
18:23:51 <krisk> ..on the new session?
18:24:03 <krisk> ddorwin: yes that is what was presented to me
18:24:05 <adrianba> q?
18:24:33 <krisk> ddorwin: it's really up to the CDM
18:24:52 <krisk> joesteele: It really is that the CDM may or maynot provide a key
18:25:16 <krisk> ..maybe add another flag?
18:25:30 <krisk> ddorwin: I'd rather move to the next bug which will fix this issue
18:25:59 <krisk> paulc: will the editors take on these bugs?
18:26:12 <krisk> adrianba: we have not reached concensus on 25267
18:26:26 <krisk> ..and have not discussed 25268 to set the scene
18:26:49 <krisk> with 25268 ddorwin is describing a problem we have discussed a few times
18:27:05 <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25268
18:27:06 <krisk> ..basically you end up with multiple net requests...
18:27:32 <krisk> ..it doesn't sound like this woudl be a complete fix
18:27:56 <krisk> ddorwin: 25268 is the biggest issue for EME app devs..
18:28:13 <krisk> Bug 25268 - Reduce the burden on applications to dedupe initData from
18:28:37 <krisk> ddorwin: what is an app to do?  simplest is to ignore but is key system specific
18:28:49 <krisk> ..the goal is to allow the app to know what to do...
18:29:04 <krisk> ..The previous misses some cases
18:29:15 <krisk> ...It pretty complex for an app to deal with..
18:29:24 <krisk> ..and might break down with key rotation
18:29:52 <krisk> ..even in the previous bug you'll end up with hundreds of sessions which is not good
18:30:14 <paulc> Review previous bugs related to this: (bug 16553, bug 19208, bug 21855)
18:30:20 <krisk> paulc: Please review the old bugs listed in 25268
18:30:44 <krisk> TOPIC: Bug 25269 - Add a container-independent initialization data type for
18:30:54 <krisk> see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25269
18:31:22 <krisk> ddorwin: nothing fundemental says that the keys must come from the media
18:31:54 <krisk> ..basically it's container independent structure for keys or psh systems
18:32:18 <krisk> ..the license request should not be restricted by a container format
18:32:20 <joesteele_> q+
18:32:36 <krisk> ..simple just need to make it accessible via javascript
18:33:01 <krisk> ..herry was asking why psh's are even needed?
18:33:24 <paulc> See historical email about PSSHs: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013May/0018.html
18:33:29 <plh> rrsagent, generate minutes
18:33:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html plh
18:33:44 <krisk> ...but this is ortho to this issue
18:33:50 <paulc> ack joe
18:34:01 <krisk> joesteele: The reason I brought this up - not that this is a bad idea
18:34:24 <krisk> joesteele: How would one support this for content that exists
18:34:43 <adrianba> q+
18:35:05 <krisk> ..the only mechansim for how I would support tihs would be to make a new request and I would get the actual psh
18:35:21 <krisk> ..which leads to what is in the session, since thie psh is now part of the session
18:35:46 <krisk> ..It's not a bad idea but I don't see how this would work for DRM's that use pshs
18:36:02 <krisk> ddorwin: This is part of accepting using EME
18:36:16 <krisk> joesteele: This is fundemental to how DRM exists today
18:36:43 <krisk> ddorwin: If an app wants to do this then their key systems needs to support this but it's not required.
18:36:56 <krisk> ..We are not replacing PSHs
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18:37:22 <krisk> ..adrianba has a nice change in the spe
18:37:24 <ddorwin> initDataType registry: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/default/encrypted-media/initdata-format-registry.html
18:37:26 <krisk> s/spec/spec/
18:38:08 <krisk> We would add a new item but all of these are optional, just like webm or cenc
18:38:22 <krisk> paulc: any more need to discuss
18:38:28 <adrianba> q?
18:38:41 <krisk> joesteele: doesn't seem to do damage but doesn't seem to support my DRM system
18:38:48 <krisk> joesteele: what is missing?
18:39:12 <krisk> ..we would need to have more information in the session
18:39:23 <krisk> ddorwin: you can do this today
18:39:49 <paulc> q?
18:39:51 <paulc> ack ad
18:40:06 <krisk> adrianba: The one question I had was the for the other intitData types, we talk about how they get called
18:40:22 <krisk> ..is this just for call createsession with?
18:40:51 <niels_t> q+
18:40:53 <krisk> adrianba: it sounds like a good solution when you get keys from a manifest
18:40:59 <krisk> ..so it seems reasonable
18:41:10 <krisk> ddorwin: only need to figureout the best format
18:41:15 <paulc> ack niels
18:41:18 <krisk> neils
18:41:50 <krisk> neils: To support joe's view we have simalar need to persist the pshs
18:42:14 <jaymunro> s/PSHs/PSSHs
18:42:14 <krisk> TOPIC: Bug 25092 - Need a way to inform script that resolution restrictions
18:42:26 <krisk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25092
18:42:33 <krisk> Looks like Mark responded
18:42:43 <krisk> paulc: what is the next step here
18:42:53 <krisk> ddorwin: We don't have a good use case for this issue
18:43:07 <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25092#c8
18:43:11 <paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25092#c9
18:43:17 <pal> q+
18:43:51 <krisk> markw: I'm looking right now..
18:44:11 <krisk> pal: we discussed this in the past that was simalar
18:44:30 <krisk> ..for example some css transformation may not be available
18:44:52 <krisk> ..seems like we don't have a way to inform the app what is available, permitted or not permitted
18:45:36 <krisk> glenn: no real way to do this in general - some terrible poor hueristics
18:46:05 <krisk> markw: the multiple key thinks looks like a hack
18:46:26 <ddorwin> s/We don't have a good use case for this issue/We don't have an agreed upon solution for this issue/
18:47:39 <krisk> paulc: we'll just continue the dialog in the bug, please add your comments to the bug
18:47:54 <krisk> TOPIC: Bug 25200 - Add optional "licenseType" parameter to createSession()
18:48:07 <krisk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25200
18:48:12 <paulc> See clarification in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25200#c6
18:48:36 <krisk> ddorwin: I was going for the normal streaming case as well as persisted (offline on a plane)
18:49:01 <joesteele_> q+
18:49:13 <krisk> ddorwin: app needs to tell drm what it wants - save to play later (offline) for example
18:49:31 <krisk> ddorwin: The others are TBD or other session types...
18:49:59 <krisk> paulc: we have a long email thread, is the related?
18:50:26 <markw> q+
18:50:29 <krisk> ddorwin: I tried to clarify that I am trying to solve the offline case, though other cases are being discussed
18:50:56 <krisk> ..I'm trying to get back to the main use case and then from their we could potentially build on the enum
18:51:05 <krisk> ..to support other use cases
18:51:12 <adrianba> q+
18:51:18 <paulc> ack pal
18:51:20 <paulc> ack joe
18:51:30 <paulc> ack markw
18:51:44 <paulc> ack ad
18:51:53 <joesteele_> q+
18:52:04 <markw> q+
18:52:41 <krisk> adrianba: The message signature - I'd like a dictionary, since I'm worried we need to add another para later
18:52:54 <krisk> s/para/param/
18:53:22 <krisk> ddorwin: the point of this is to make it obvious so as long as the dictionary is specific
18:53:25 <paulc> ack joe
18:53:54 <pal> q+
18:54:00 <krisk> joesteele: I wanted to add one more, I'm more conserned about persistance to not keep request access
18:54:20 <krisk> ..but I do support the dictionary proposal from adrianba
18:54:48 <paulc> ack mark
18:55:16 <krisk> ddorwin: The type may have more information if it's persisted or no (flags)
18:55:37 <krisk> markw: will the server need do anything differenent?
18:55:46 <krisk> ddorwin: I'm aware of two cases...
18:56:12 <krisk> joesteele: if it's an open device (kiosk) the app may want to NOT persist stuff
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18:56:37 <krisk> joesteele: it's really about providing a hint
18:57:03 <krisk> ddorwin: the goal is to allow an app to make a specific request
18:57:17 <krisk> ddorwin: multiple systems have this in the request today
18:57:26 <adrianba> q+
18:58:18 <krisk> Markw: asking question...
18:59:11 <krisk> markw: I don't disgree with the proposal, but I don't think in your case we want to use the persistance
18:59:36 <krisk> markw: it might be temporary so you can actually persist this information
18:59:39 <krisk> ddorwin: yes
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19:00:45 <markw> s/so you can actually persist this information/but you my still have a persistent session even though the license and keys were temporary/
19:01:23 <krisk> paulc: Lets' see if we can talk about content editable during the IAB talk from 14:00 -> 15:00
19:05:09 <krisk> paulc: We need to discuss when EME TF wants to meet - maybe next tuesday
19:05:26 <krisk> dorwin: we need people to respond first to make session
19:05:46 <krisk> paulc: maybe the EME folks can meet today and work on these issues working F2F
19:06:50 <krisk> room agrees to take advantage of F2F to discuss more about these EME issues and make more progress
19:07:09 <krisk> paulc: It would be great to take simple notes and send to the group
19:07:36 <krisk> We are now breaking for lunch and will meet back at 13:00 (DOM4 stuff)
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19:08:52 <gitbot> [13validator] 15sideshowbarker pushed 2 new commits to 06master: 02https://github.com/validator/validator/compare/6d683741370f...ce09a2bf571e
19:08:52 <gitbot> 13validator/06master 144bf9182 15Michael[tm] Smith: Simplify the default version string for the CLI.
19:08:52 <gitbot> 13validator/06master 14ce09a2b 15Michael[tm] Smith: For warnings, "Bad value"⇒ "Potentially bad value"
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19:11:02 <adrianba> q?
19:11:06 <adrianba> queue=
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20:01:46 <cyns> scribe: cyns
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20:02:25 <darobin> https://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/HTML5.0AtRiskFeatures#DOM4_Features_at_Risk
20:03:11 <cyns> TOPIC: DOM 4 test results and features at risk
20:03:44 <darobin>     Elements interface (whole section), query/queryAll
20:03:44 <darobin>     ArrayClass extended attribute
20:03:44 <darobin>     append/prepend
20:03:46 <darobin>     before/after/replace
20:03:48 <darobin>     MutationObservers
20:04:07 <cyns> robin: we have a small set of features at risk.
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20:05:12 <cyns> robin: I"m not sure that these aren't supported, but I'm sure that we don't have enough tests to prove it
20:05:21 <cyns> robin: the first 2 are known failures
20:05:30 <cyns> robin: the last 3 are new things where we don't have enough tests
20:05:38 <paulc> Based on analysis of: http://w3c.github.io/dom/test-results/less-than-2.html
20:05:48 <paulc> Test files with failures: 43; Subtests with fewer than 2 passes: 1719; Failure level: 1719/47132 (3.65%)
20:06:33 <cyns> robin: I tried to err on teh side of including things in the at-risk list, so we are as safe as possible.
20:06:41 <darobin> http://w3c.github.io/dom/test-results/less-than-2.html#test-file-36
20:06:47 <cyns> robin: if we test and they pass, we just keep them
20:07:02 <cyns> robin: less than 2 list has not changed since yesterday.
20:07:16 <cyns> robin: most are idl, many others are corner cases.
20:07:29 <paulc> Majority of failures are IDL failures whch we need to filter out to explain.
20:07:58 <cyns> robin: overall test results are pretty good
20:08:26 <cyns> pc: keeping track of our 10 different documents that express status
20:08:37 <krisk> MutationObservers is implemented in all browsers
20:08:38 <krisk> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/MutationObserver?redirectlocale=en-US&redirectslug=DOM%2FMutationObserver
20:09:03 <krisk> Unlike the prepend and append https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/ParentNode
20:09:04 <cyns> pc: robin was to prepare a candidate cr, with changes to red text.  we didn't set a date for that
20:09:19 <krisk> q+
20:09:24 <cyns> pc: we proposed a min length of 30 days for cr.  we also identified 5 items at risk
20:10:03 <cyns> pc: we also need to have a meeting with the director.  when do we want to do that, and do we want to do them together?
20:10:27 <cyns> robin: don't think we need to coordinate publications, but a single meeting would be ok.
20:10:38 <cyns> pc:  a phone call with Ralph may be enough
20:11:11 <cyns> pc: I will also send an announcement to the chairs list
20:12:20 <cyns> pc: will you do a page, like we have for canvas, that explains the bad results?
20:12:41 <cyns> robin: yes
20:12:48 <darobin> ACTION: Robin to draft a page explaining the failures in the DOM test suite
20:12:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-244 - Draft a page explaining the failures in the dom test suite [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-04-16].
20:13:19 <cyns> kris: the features at risk, mutation observers are in a different class than append and prepend
20:13:26 <cyns> plh: class?
20:14:01 <cyns> kris: I don't think any browsers support append/prepend.  we have some tests for mutation observers, and mozilla has an implementation
20:14:26 <cyns> kris: if you write a test for mutation observers, you may find it exists.  not so for append/prepend
20:15:11 <cyns> ACTION: krisk to submit mutation observer tests to webplatform
20:15:11 <trackbot> Error finding 'krisk'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/users>.
20:15:58 <plh> trackbot, list users
20:15:58 <trackbot> Sorry, plh, I don't understand 'trackbot, list users'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
20:16:31 <cyns> pc: when can you give us the draft document
20:16:35 <cyns> robin: in a couple weeks
20:16:46 <plh> ACTION: kris to submit mutation observer tests to webplatform
20:16:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-245 - Submit mutation observer tests to webplatform [on Kris Krueger - due 2014-04-16].
20:17:42 <jaymunro> TOPIC: content editable
20:17:50 <adrianba> scribe:jaymunro
20:18:20 <adrianba> http://oksoclap.com/p/extensible_content_editing
20:18:55 <jaymunro> adrianb  at the extnesible web summit break out session
20:18:59 <jaymunro> editing in general
20:19:14 <jaymunro> what'll improve operablity. high level point of view
20:19:36 <jaymunro> content edited should be done in detail, so all browser could do it the same
20:19:56 <jaymunro> other - not necessary to do the same results in all browsers
20:20:25 <jaymunro> Doesn't think that kind of precision is necessary
20:21:04 <jaymunro> because of bugs in browsers, differences, there isn't good interop here. Most editing libs try to override all the browser does for you.
20:21:14 <jaymunro> editors do it themselves.
20:21:22 <JohnJansen> s/operablity/interoperability
20:21:24 <paulc> rrsagent, generate minutes
20:21:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html paulc
20:21:30 <cyns> q+
20:21:37 <jaymunro> some wanted rich html, some wanted different styles, etc...
20:21:49 <jaymunro> discussed creating a new content editable.
20:21:55 <jaymunro> very basic
20:22:32 <jaymunro> last thing, had a good discussion about improving selection api. Robin mentioned overlap with webaps
20:22:43 <jaymunro> Microsoft thinks it's key to the browser.
20:22:53 <jaymunro> bi directional, consistent selection
20:23:02 <jaymunro> like to focus on the selection API.
20:23:18 <jaymunro> robin: the selection API is in web apps
20:23:25 <jaymunro> the content editable cojuld go in HTML
20:23:45 <jaymunro> ade: the editing command would work better on a range.
20:23:52 <krisk> s/cojuld/could/
20:24:05 <jaymunro> robin; contentent edita ble = basic, would this work better.
20:24:07 <jaymunro> ade:
20:24:15 <jaymunro> we didn't spend time drilling down
20:24:34 <jaymunro> from my perseptive the more basic ediable, it disables the intgeraction peices.
20:25:00 <jaymunro> s/intgeration/interaction
20:25:27 <jaymunro> discussion of whether pressing enter, what does it do.
20:25:49 <rubys> s/contentent edita ble/content editable
20:25:55 <jaymunro> what should hitting enter i- n a time element.
20:26:38 <jaymunro> robin: web frameworks, feedback went 90%. composing characters can be wrong, customers just says give us events.
20:27:17 <jaymunro> cyn: some people want full rich editor to do everything. people just want a tag for a rich editor
20:27:41 <jaymunro> confusion on what basic means
20:28:07 <cyns> ack me
20:28:26 <krisk> ack krisk
20:28:37 <jaymunro> pc: are we talking about having work split between working groups
20:28:56 <jaymunro> robin: how much work is needed, how much work is needed for content editable
20:29:23 <jaymunro> ade: feels to me that we should serialize the work. solving for selection api, will give us the frame work for how to change editing
20:29:37 <cyns> my point was more about a simple rich text editor that covers the simple cases, like blog posts and comments, that web authors could just drop in with an element, and not have to code.
20:30:06 <cyns> and that such and element would be wired up to accessibility api, and also create clean markup
20:30:12 <jaymunro> pc: do we need a report back for webaps?
20:30:22 <jaymunro> robin: no, we don't need extra coordination.
20:30:30 <jaymunro> doing them one after the other is good
20:30:44 <jaymunro> we don't need to do anything on the HTML front yet
20:30:56 <jaymunro> cyn: is there any support in 5.1 and later ?
20:31:31 <jaymunro> ted: a lot of the content editable, they want the controls fit in with the adds. there's a challenge to design the controls.
20:31:36 <jaymunro> we did ok for video controls.
20:32:17 <jaymunro> ade: almost everybody has diff requirements, like blog comments, what styles, use css, etc?
20:32:28 <jaymunro> even for similar cases they have diff req..
20:32:59 <jaymunro> ted: it worth considering that platform feature set, where content editing gets used heavily,
20:33:25 <jaymunro> cyn: what Im thinkinmg about is not fancy, for the people who don't need to go searching for controls.
20:33:53 <jaymunro> robin: it would be good to have a rich text area, like text area,
20:34:53 <jaymunro> robin: even for trivial cases, like linking - a lot of small subtlities. need someone comes to ta ble with a good description
20:35:21 <jaymunro> ade: we need a web component for this, if it satisfied it requirements, then we'll see if it goes into the platform.
20:35:56 <jaymunro> ted: I'd extend my worry to the basic set, we don't want to make authors redo stuff.
20:36:55 <jaymunro> mark: i could see dev doinig a markdown for a user.
20:37:12 <paulc> rrsagent, generate minutes
20:37:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html paulc
20:38:02 <jaymunro> robin: the advangtage over the min model over current model,-
20:38:20 <jaymunro> some users using the json model to create markup
20:39:28 <plh> Topic: HTML5 Features at risk
20:39:32 <plh> scribe: plh
20:39:34 <darobin> robin: the substance.io people use a nicer MVC approach that doesn't mix editing the view with editing the model
20:39:41 <plh> Paul: appcache, we keep
20:40:00 <plh> ... dialog, details, sumary, not decided
20:40:13 <plh> ... color, keep
20:40:22 <plh> ... we're on datetime ow
20:40:27 <plh> s/ow/now/
20:40:35 <darobin> https://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/HTML5.0AtRiskFeatures#HTML_5.0_Features_at_Risk
20:41:37 <plh> Robin: I have a proposal
20:41:54 <plh> ... things to remove, things to keep at risk
20:42:43 <plh> ... DataCue, we don't have tests
20:42:55 <plh> Glenn: it's not in webkit or blink
20:43:05 <plh> ... I'd prefer it to be at risk
20:43:47 <plh> Mike: it's likely that DataCue will change
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20:44:37 <plh> Glenn: some features from texttrackcue attribute
20:45:49 <plh> ... were removed and, in response, datacue was added
20:46:14 <plh> Robin: the feature can be removed easily
20:46:41 <plh> Ted: i'll write a proposal to modify datacue
20:47:07 <plh> Robin: details and summary should be killed
20:47:19 <plh> Sam: Steve Faulkner that implementation don't match the spec anyway
20:47:28 <plh> Robin: dialog?
20:47:41 <plh> ... it's in a semi disrepaired state
20:47:59 <plh> Mike: they're still working on it
20:48:14 <plh> Ted: lots of questions around it, like focus management
20:48:39 <plh> Robin: we don't have implementation at all for it
20:49:19 <plh> ... ok dialog will be removed
20:49:34 <tantek> also: dialog should go into an extension spec rather than 5.1
20:49:40 <plh> Robin: :die, :invalid, :valid
20:49:48 <plh> s/die/dir/
20:50:30 <plh> Robin: firefox does valid and invalid
20:50:39 <plh> ... no one does :dir
20:50:57 <darobin> http://www.w3c-test.org/html/semantics/selectors/pseudo-classes/valid-invalid.html
20:51:56 <plh> Robin: let's drop :dir, and keep :valid, :invalid for the moment
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20:52:15 <krisk> MDN has a nice example that seems to work fine in a few browsers
20:52:15 <krisk> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/:invalid
20:52:16 <hober> e.g. the WebKit bug is marked RESO FIXED https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=27357
20:52:20 <plh> Tantek: I thought we had interop on valid and invalid btw
20:52:45 <plh> Robin: iframe/seamless
20:52:48 <krisk> I agree with tantek...
20:53:21 <plh> Sean: it's tough to implement. I would move it out of 5.0
20:53:29 <plh> ... it needs more work and use cases
20:53:36 <adrianba> here is our valid/invalid test drive; http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/HTML5/Forms/ - click on New PseudoClasses tab
20:53:42 <plh> ... I don't see how we can use this effectively
20:53:54 <plh> Robin: Chrome removed it
20:53:58 <tantek> Gecko bug for iframe seamless: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=631218
20:54:31 <plh> Ted: safari supports it
20:54:38 <JohnJansen> no one minuted paul?
20:55:01 <plh> Mike: the other feedback is that it doesn't match the needs fro the devs
20:55:13 <plh> Tantek: candidate for extension spec
20:55:16 <plh> Sean: agree
20:55:43 <plh> Robin: I'm ok for extension spec, but someone needs to pick it up
20:56:22 <plh> iframe/seamless is out
20:56:43 <hober> re: :invalid and :valid pseudoclasses, they seem to work fine for me in Safari 7: http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/LayoutTests/fast/css/pseudo-invalid-001.html?format=raw
20:56:48 <plh> Robin: isContentHandlerRegistered/isProtocolHandlerRegistered aren't implemented
20:57:16 <plh> ... ok removed
20:57:27 <plh> Robin: input times+
20:57:38 <plh> Tantek: date ok?
20:57:42 <plh> Robin: yes
20:58:12 <adrianba> hober, that works in IE11 too
20:58:28 <plh> Tantek: don't understand why datetime doesn't have interop
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20:59:13 <plh> Robin: we could put it at risk and keep time only
21:00:08 <tantek> plh no I said don't understand why *time* doesn't have interop
21:00:20 <plh> s/datetime/time/
21:01:22 <plh> [short interrupt]
21:01:31 <tantek> tantek: it's also useful to keep input type=time as that then provides developers with a building block, along with input type=date, to build their own composite datetime UIs
21:02:46 <jaymunro> scribe:jaymunro
21:03:08 <jaymunro> TOPIC: IAB
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21:03:47 <jaymunro> presenting: chris mejia IAB, sean snider yahoo, prabhakar goyal, microsoft.
21:03:57 <paulc> See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2014Apr/att-0036/IAB_HTML5_Security_Extension_Proposal.pdf
21:04:13 <jaymunro> chrisM: here with sean and prabhaker.
21:04:29 <jaymunro> brief intro what IAB isd
21:04:34 <jaymunro> s/isd/is
21:05:01 <jaymunro> agenda: intro, use case, safeframe over view, html5 sandbox/csp, next steps
21:05:33 <jaymunro> Interactive Advertising bureau
21:05:47 <jaymunro> membership of online media companies
21:06:02 <jaymunro> only ad  group just digital
21:06:07 <jaymunro> over 600 members
21:06:24 <jaymunro> 86% of ads in us are on IAB membersites
21:06:59 <jaymunro> our interests - we develop digital ad standards
21:07:22 <jaymunro> IAB recently part of W3C
21:07:39 <jaymunro> ad content served from 3rd parties in real time
21:07:48 <jaymunro> concerned with site and user security
21:07:51 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #html-wg
21:08:16 <jaymunro> most web content is paid ads, they belive in the free web (ad paid)
21:08:40 <jaymunro> Prab: use case real time content serving
21:08:45 <jaymunro> showing a diagram,
21:09:09 <jaymunro> common case : goes to ad serverf
21:09:22 <jaymunro> s/serverf/server
21:10:09 <jaymunro> browser calls exchange, calls ad server, if no ad, returns. if ad served, advertiser are sent to be bid on, highest bidder wins
21:10:31 <jaymunro> the publisher doesn't know what ad content is
21:10:54 <jaymunro> you can't use a black or white list to control content.
21:11:02 <jaymunro> publisher areas of concern:
21:11:20 <jaymunro> isolation, separation between publsher and 3rd party
21:11:49 <jaymunro>   ad tag is usually a script. always done that way, sometimes an iframe
21:12:07 <jaymunro> (intro into SafeFrame)
21:12:16 <jaymunro> no way to monitor scripts in real time.
21:12:41 <jaymunro> looking to control data leakage, content, cookies, data
21:12:48 <jaymunro> prevent js and css collision
21:13:09 <jaymunro> but allow rich interactions with out providing full access (covered by safeframe + iframe
21:13:25 <jaymunro> controls auto play, restricts certain media types
21:13:38 <jaymunro> allows rich interaction without full access.
21:13:59 <jaymunro> Ability to control other attack surface areas - prefent downloads
21:14:39 <jaymunro> sean: use case - Safe frame - a cross domain iframe
21:15:12 <jaymunro> where we stick the content, but wrap it with a javascript library, each frame defines a lib the content can talk to
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21:15:37 <jaymunro> host decides whether actions are takein when iframe request info.
21:15:55 <jaymunro> agnostic domain - hosts a base level doc.
21:16:37 <jaymunro> some data sharing - events from browser , we send msgs to iframe -
21:17:17 <jaymunro> SafeFrame APIs - agnostic origin, every safe fram e is in the same origin, talk to each other, but not top level
21:17:38 <jaymunro> display ads are snippets of html, freeform js and html.
21:17:47 <jaymunro> alwyas delivered with script or iframe.
21:18:00 <jaymunro> s/alwyas/always
21:18:32 <jaymunro> safeframe will let them show a display ad, it just works, doesn't need changes.
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21:19:14 <jaymunro> host creates an safeframe iframe, handles interaction between host and server.
21:19:36 <jaymunro> HTML5 sandbox - similar to safeframe.
21:20:07 <jaymunro> sanbox attributes are too coarse grain, additional areas of control that publishers want
21:20:38 <jaymunro> IAB wants enhancements to allow finer controls, ie ability to restrict
21:21:38 <jaymunro> safe frame sets up xdomain plus csp- can't whitelist individual content, but can restict certain plug ins, or downloads (eg)
21:22:40 <jaymunro> showed a list comparing safeframe, sandbox, and csp
21:24:00 <jaymunro> things like allow/block plugins, plugin types, media types, require user interactions.
21:24:13 <jaymunro> one thing to controls that's desiared is autoplay.
21:24:26 <jaymunro> s/desiared/desired
21:24:52 <jaymunro> problem with nested scripts/iframes
21:25:05 <jaymunro> very challenging
21:25:22 <jaymunro> chris; trying to protect user and advertiser.
21:26:03 <jaymunro> as publisher, they're always under attack by nefarious
21:26:12 <jaymunro> persons
21:26:30 <jaymunro> sean: we're trying to give more control
21:26:44 <jaymunro> showing more features
21:27:17 <jaymunro> that's our presentation in a nutshell - questions
21:27:34 <jaymunro> greg: to what extent does tech rely on extensions addons.
21:28:14 <jaymunro> sean: pure HTML, no plugins. one hack. undlying doc is cachable so you don't have a separate request for every piece of content
21:28:35 <jaymunro> greg: the original site/webpage right,
21:29:15 <jaymunro> sean: Yes. they way we set up the spec, there are rules where you can't embed this in other iframe or host in "evil.com"
21:30:14 <jaymunro> chris: google is releasing safeframe in one area end of summer (DFP)
21:30:29 <jaymunro> sean: because now you have a clear box, you have more options.
21:30:59 <jaymunro> you couldn't do that before.
21:31:05 <jaymunro> you have much more control.
21:31:46 <jaymunro> chris: thank you for your time. we've talked with philip and others. Trying to find positive things to work on, and bridge the groups.
21:31:59 <jaymunro> we should be not doing everything on our own.
21:32:35 <jaymunro> we'd like to get your input.
21:32:37 <adrianba> q+
21:32:43 <jaymunro> questions?
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21:33:05 <jaymunro> robin: uses cases make sense. most of what you want are extension to sandbox?
21:33:35 <jaymunro> sean: sandbox is too course, we need more fine grain.
21:34:17 <jaymunro> csp - content security policy
21:34:29 <jaymunro> csp is in w3 on rec track
21:35:05 <jaymunro> white listing at a feature level might work.
21:35:17 <jaymunro> but not at content level
21:36:14 <jaymunro> robin: no rule of thumb of where this concept will live, sandbox or csp.
21:36:26 <jaymunro> sandbox easier to implement for users.
21:36:31 <jaymunro> maybe merge both
21:36:42 <jaymunro> you don't need to block on where to solve thse things.
21:37:03 <jaymunro> it's not a big deal to move features between the two (csp/sandbox)
21:37:21 <jaymunro> at some point we'll figure the best way.
21:37:39 <plh> ack adrianba
21:38:23 <jaymunro> ade: there definitly needs to be coordination with web app security. the best way to get it goiong is to write a spec
21:38:53 <jaymunro> pc: do you guys understand what an extension spec. just need to write it and post it to get discussion on the html-wg
21:39:11 <jaymunro> robin: if it needs to move, we can do it later.
21:39:28 <jaymunro> pc: the chairs and the team are very willing to work with you.
21:39:43 <jaymunro> the web consortium encourages modularity
21:40:03 <jaymunro> if it grows, we can give it a bugzilla component.
21:40:30 <jaymunro> sean: if you have an origin in a sandbox, how does iframe know it's been sandboxed.
21:40:38 <jaymunro> robin: don't believe it does.
21:41:01 <jaymunro> ade: expectation is that these things are coordinated.
21:41:45 <jaymunro> sean: a simpler case is a service provider spawns an iframe, - I don't know if they coordinate for a sandbox.
21:43:49 <jaymunro> chris: you may have read about this recently, its estimated that ad insustry is being defrauded in 1-6 billion dollars. follow the money back to sophisticated crime blocks.
21:44:08 <jaymunro> mostly eastern block with engineers that can't get legit work.
21:45:00 <jaymunro> told story about callcenter of malicious ad center
21:45:38 <jaymunro> bad guys using ads to launder money. biggest thing is using bots. best way to deliver a bot is thorugh ads.
21:45:50 <jaymunro> s/thorugh/through
21:46:54 <jaymunro> talked about bogus ads
21:47:17 <jaymunro> sean: is it possible to know if it's in a browser and not a programmable user agent.
21:47:46 <jaymunro> someone loads pages and fake clicks through.
21:48:03 <jaymunro> robin: the only way is to put DRM on the browser engines.
21:48:18 <jaymunro> Michel: is that a bad thing robin?
21:48:28 <plh> s/Michel/Mike/
21:48:56 <jaymunro> robin: the browser needs to be on a secure elementl.
21:49:03 <jaymunro> s/elementl/element
21:50:05 <jaymunro> sean: there are a lot of good uses for scripting access, but it also is used for bad things.
21:50:15 <wwu> wwu has joined #html-wg
21:50:20 <jaymunro> prak: it's a problem that is getting bigger.
21:50:28 <dsinger_> dsinger_ has joined #html-wg
21:50:37 <jaymunro> robin: first thing is to ask webapps if it's in their scope.
21:50:46 <jaymunro> then I'd go to the websecrity IG,
21:51:02 <jaymunro> no promise for solution.
21:51:32 <jaymunro> chris: is this a security issue or a fraud issue. usually to do the fraud, there's a securty issue.
21:51:47 <jaymunro> s/securty/security
21:52:41 <jaymunro> problem is that there's a symbiotic relationships in the industry, there's consequences .
21:52:51 <jaymunro> greed rules, companies looking the other way.
21:53:49 <jaymunro> sean: loading javascript into webpages can be really evil. but some are making money.
21:54:35 <jaymunro> chris: these issues are being discussed at all levels, law inforcement, etc... if there are technical ways to work on this it would be good.
21:55:27 <jaymunro> pc: interviews with michael lewis, about trapdoor in trading markets where the margin costs went down.
21:55:58 <jaymunro> the fact that the stockmarkets sell their trading stream, they can take advantage.
21:57:21 <jaymunro> chris: when we first talked about this, one of the sec firms told us where they follwed money to banks. they're all connected to ad networks
21:57:50 <jaymunro> pc: although michael lewis makes money on the book, the iax exchange has passed on 800 tips to the FBI
21:58:02 <jaymunro> the general point, the more public it is, the better it could be.
21:59:39 <jaymunro> rrsagent,generate minutes
21:59:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html jaymunro
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22:14:26 <plh> rrsagent, generate minutes
22:14:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html plh
22:17:36 <plh> Topici: back to HTML5 features at risk
22:18:22 <plh> Topic: back to HTML5 features at risk
22:18:26 <plh> scribe: plh
22:18:49 <plh> Robin: reportValidaty fails everywhere
22:18:58 <plh> ... ok removed
22:19:06 <krisk> krisk has joined #html-wg
22:19:11 <plh> ... <style scoped
22:19:15 <plh> ... anyone supports it?
22:19:40 <plh> Ted: depends on work in the css wg. not ready.
22:19:46 <plh> Robin: ok removed
22:19:54 <plh> ... XMLDocument.load
22:19:57 <plh> ... firefox removed it
22:20:53 <plh> .... ok removed
22:21:09 <plh> plh: editors might want to remove from HTML 5.1
22:21:19 <plh> ... (for XMLDocument.load)
22:21:26 <plh> Robin: other bucket
22:21:40 <plh> ... New Ruby Model
22:21:49 <plh> .... webkit started work on it
22:22:03 <plh> ... lots of failures on HTMLMediaElement.addTextTrack
22:22:07 <plh> ... mostly failing at the moment
22:22:50 <plh> Paul: time should be input/time in the wiki
22:23:06 <plh> ... also we have a couple of items missing:
22:23:21 <plh> ... output and outline algorithm
22:23:53 <plh> Robin: I thought we discussed. sorry. output element seems to interop
22:23:58 <plh> ... so no reason to remove
22:24:25 <plh> .., outline algo is supported by outside tools, so no good reason to drop it
22:24:46 <plh> [Paul goes through the full list to double check]
22:25:29 <rubys> q+
22:25:30 <rubys> http://blog.paciellogroup.com/2013/10/html5-document-outline/
22:25:57 <plh> ack rubys
22:26:16 <plh> Sam: Steve Faulkner thinks outline should be removed...
22:26:22 <plh> ... can we close the loop with him?
22:26:27 <plh> Ted & Mike: sure
22:27:06 <plh> Paul: we should update the bug with the list btw, to make sure people see this
22:28:20 <plh> [side discussion to make sure the wiki gets updated]
22:29:21 <plh> Paul: how much to remove before the next heartbeat and how much for the LC?
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22:30:24 <plh> Robin: I'll start removing thigs sooner rather than later. we can bring this back easily if needed
22:30:39 <plh> ... so the heartbeat will have the stuff removed
22:32:02 <darobin> ACTION: Robin to produce a heartbeat with feature removals and at risk items taken into account
22:32:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-246 - Produce a heartbeat with feature removals and at risk items taken into account [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-04-16].
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22:32:27 <plh> Paul: where do we stand on the test results?
22:32:55 <plh> Robin: still the same
22:33:05 <darobin> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tests-cr-exit/
22:33:10 <plh> ... testing coverage ...
22:34:07 <plh> Robin: we might need to revisit the cr page
22:34:50 <plh> Paul: if we don't test them, only two ways to move forward: passive permissive, drop the feature, or tell the director to hold his nose
22:35:01 <plh> Robin: section 5 is important
22:36:02 <MarkS> s/source/fund
22:36:44 <plh> Robin: I'm worried about section 5
22:37:14 <plh> ... it's quite possible that some of those subsections are not testable.
22:37:38 <plh> ACTION: Robin to go through section 5 to check which section is testable or not
22:37:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-247 - Go through section 5 to check which section is testable or not [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-04-16].
22:38:26 <plh> Kris: it will be difficult to test section 5
22:39:06 <plh> ACTION: Kris to triage section 5 into hard and easy tests
22:39:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-248 - Triage section 5 into hard and easy tests [on Kris Krueger - due 2014-04-16].
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22:39:12 <plh> close action-247
22:39:12 <trackbot> Closed action-247.
22:40:01 <plh> Kris: I'll come back with the list in 2 weeks
22:41:53 <krisk> * thanks johnjan
22:42:37 <JohnJansen> plh, did you just ask me something on the phone? my reception is not great...
22:43:10 <plh> Plh: are we missing anything in our list of features at risk?
22:44:07 <plh> [none heard]
22:45:05 <plh> Paul: would be useful to have a plan for a plan in 10 days
22:46:48 <plh> [...]
22:47:10 <plh> Paul: are we done for today?
22:47:16 <plh> ... looks like it
22:48:02 <plh> ... we'll be back in Santa Clara in November again
22:48:19 <plh> ... we'll put the new work mode in actio right away
22:48:27 <plh> s/actio/action/
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23:19:21 <plh> rrsagent, generate minutes
23:19:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-html-wg-minutes.html plh
23:19:29 <darobin> MarkS: the test is in html/semantics/embedded-content/media-elements/interfaces/TextTrack/oncuechange.html
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