11:57:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #csvw
11:57:00 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-csvw-irc
11:57:02 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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11:57:04 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be CSVW
11:57:04 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
11:57:05 <trackbot> Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference
11:57:06 <trackbot> Date: 09 April 2014
11:57:51 <Zakim> DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has now started
11:57:58 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
11:57:59 <AndyS> zakim, IPcaller is me
11:57:59 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
11:58:00 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
11:58:21 <fresco> Zakim, IPcaller.a is me
11:58:21 <Zakim> +fresco; got it
11:59:06 <Zakim> + +1.937.207.aaaa
11:59:12 <phila> zakim, code?
11:59:12 <Zakim> the conference code is 2789 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), phila
11:59:26 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
11:59:31 <phila> zakim, ipcaller is me
11:59:31 <Zakim> +phila; got it
11:59:52 <phila> rrsagent, make logs public
12:00:34 <MathewT> zakim, 937.207.aaaa is me
12:00:34 <Zakim> sorry, MathewT, I do not recognize a party named '937.207.aaaa'
12:01:03 <JeniT> JeniT has joined #csvw
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12:01:31 <phila> phila has changed the topic to: Meeting agenda: http://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-04-09
12:01:56 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
12:02:00 <Zakim> +??P11
12:02:20 <DavideCeolin> zakim, ??P11 is me
12:02:20 <Zakim> +DavideCeolin; got it
12:04:12 <Zakim> +??P14
12:04:28 <AndyS> scribe: Andy Seaborne
12:04:35 <AndyS> scribenick: AndyS
12:04:45 <danbri> thanks AndyS!
12:04:52 <AndyS> AndyS: Regrets for next week.
12:05:17 <JeniT> JeniT: Regrets for next week
12:05:47 <JeniT> http://www.w3.org/2014/04/02-csvw-minutes.html
12:05:59 <danbri> looks good
12:06:23 <AndyS> AndyS: Not all actions recorded in the tracker
12:06:25 <danbri> 3 of them are for me; i'll make todos directly.
12:06:50 <AndyS> APPROVED: Minutes http://www.w3.org/2014/04/02-csvw-minutes.html
12:06:57 <AndyS> topic: UCR
12:07:05 <jtandy> jtandy has joined #csvw
12:07:18 <phila> q+
12:07:30 <AndyS> Davide: will sync with jeremy
12:07:42 <JeniT> ack phila
12:08:32 <AndyS> phila: making progress on my action for a UC
12:08:41 <phila> action: phila  to add use case linking from metadata to the data
12:08:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-12 -  to add use case linking from metadata to the data [on Phil Archer - due 2014-04-16].
12:08:49 <danbri> (phil's action was on me last week as "chase phila for his usecase in which a party provides metadata for another's csv"; I declare my work done)
12:08:54 <AndyS> topic: Conversion
12:09:04 <AndyS> http://w3c.github.io/csvw/csv2rdf/
12:09:13 <JeniT> AndyS: we had a telcon yesterday
12:09:30 <JeniT> ... including jtandy, Gregg, Juan
12:09:50 <Zakim> + +44.777.586.aabb
12:09:57 <JeniT> ... we're looking at processing from CSV to CSV to clean up the general data
12:10:04 <jtandy> zakim, aabb is me
12:10:04 <Zakim> +jtandy; got it
12:10:05 <JeniT> ... eg fixing up new lines, delimiters, date formats
12:10:23 <JeniT> ... thought better to do that as rewriting CSV
12:10:29 <JeniT> ... then convert clean CSV to RDF/JSON/XML
12:10:40 <JeniT> ... R2RML is the nuclear option for complicated transforms
12:10:53 <JeniT> ... we didn't push on the boundaries around that
12:11:01 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:11:01 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:11:09 <JeniT> ... similarly might want to do RDF-to-RDF or JSON-to-JSON transforms after conversion
12:11:22 <JeniT> ... we don't want to repeat work done elsewhere, or add more tools to end users' toolchain
12:11:31 <JeniT> ... we discussed on what's published
12:11:41 <JeniT> ... there's CSVs published as the outcome of a longer process
12:11:49 <JeniT> ... shared schemas, shared transformations, custom mappings
12:12:01 <JeniT> ... at scale & in volume; sharing parts of the files is beneficial
12:12:07 <JeniT> ... vs someone taking CSV from data.gov.uk
12:12:11 <JeniT> ... and adding their own transform
12:12:16 <JeniT> ... they need something more self-contained
12:12:25 <JeniT> ... a single file to control the transformation
12:12:42 <JeniT> ... also whether the CSV was created without the web in mind, or with the web in mind
12:12:49 <JeniT> ... particularly with spotting links & data formats
12:13:14 <JeniT> ... Gregg is going to look at pulling out his transform description to apply it independently of JSON-LD
12:14:07 <JeniT> ... we're hopeful that there will be commonality in conversion to JSON
12:14:21 <JeniT> ... which kind of depends on whether the conversion is to JSON-LD
12:14:47 <danbri> q+ to ask status of test case csvs for this exploration
12:15:36 <JeniT> ... had a good chat with Ivan when we met up
12:15:57 <jtandy> q+
12:16:09 <JeniT> ... comments on what's been written would be great
12:16:37 <JeniT> ... it's a bit scruffy, but the general approach is there
12:16:51 <JeniT> ... I'm using the term 'basic mapping' rather than 'direct mapping'
12:16:51 <danbri> 'simple mapping'?
12:17:04 <JeniT> ... there's a progression of complexity
12:17:07 <danbri> 'wishfulthinking mapping'
12:17:09 <JeniT> ack danbri
12:17:09 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask status of test case csvs for this exploration
12:17:41 <JeniT> danbri: are there test files?
12:17:47 <JeniT> AndyS: there's tests in the repo
12:17:56 <JeniT> danbri: are they mainstream examples or test cases?
12:18:27 <JeniT> AndyS: the test ones from gkellogg are focused
12:18:33 <JeniT> danbri: we'd like mainstream examples
12:18:41 <JeniT> AndyS: I've put some of those in the document
12:19:15 <JeniT> ... if you could work through one of the examples you want to put in, that would be great, like jtandy did
12:19:33 <danbri> q?
12:19:40 <JeniT> ack jtandy
12:19:47 <danbri> https://github.com/w3c/csvw/blob/gh-pages/examples/simple-weather-observation.md
12:19:52 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:19:52 <Zakim> jtandy was not muted, jtandy
12:20:23 <AndyS> JTandy: we also talked about was charter and metadata in RDF
12:20:44 <AndyS> ... may be distinct from the mapping framing (not in RDF)
12:21:00 <AndyS> ... want to test this with WG.
12:21:24 <JeniT> AndyS: yes, metadata about the CSV file may or may not be in RDF
12:21:35 <JeniT> ... it might be simpler to have one language that drives all the mappings
12:21:46 <JeniT> ... which might include provenance etc
12:21:51 <phila> from the charter "The vocabulary should be defined, or should have an encoding, in standard RDF and, wherever possible and appropriate, should refer to, and reuse, existing vocabularies developed elsewhere." - i.e. it doesn't have to *only* be in RDF
12:21:52 <JeniT> ... even in JSON-LD, the context part isn't RDF
12:22:18 <JeniT> jtandy: we talked about gkellogg pulling out the transformation stuff from JSON-LD to see if it could be expressed in Turtle
12:22:31 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:22:31 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:23:05 <AndyS> jeniT: easy to write might mean TTL
12:23:27 <AndyS> ... want to see the things it will say to guide the syntax choice.
12:23:48 <AndyS> ... separating CSV-specific xform from JSON-LD will be good.,
12:24:10 <AndyS> ... nudged Rufus and Ross Jones re JSON.
12:25:06 <JeniT> https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Conversions
12:25:08 <danbri> aside - another JSON-LD launch at google this week: https://devsite.googleplex.com/webmasters/business-location-pages/schema.org-examples (i.e. we like JSON-LD)
12:26:18 <AndyS> topic: Model for tabular data
12:26:46 <AndyS> jenit: e.g. import into relational DB
12:27:13 <AndyS> davide: may have some interesting data as example
12:27:20 <jtandy> danbri - that looks like an internal link (googleplex) ... just tried it :-)
12:28:06 <AndyS> subtopic: null fields
12:28:19 <JeniT> http://w3c.github.io/csvw/syntax/#core-tabular-data-model
12:28:20 <AndyS> jenit: "What is a null field" comment from D Booth
12:28:40 <AndyS> ... absent and empty : same? different?
12:28:42 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:28:42 <Zakim> jtandy should no longer be muted
12:28:45 <jtandy> q+
12:28:52 <JeniT> ack jtandy
12:29:20 <AndyS> jtandy: in the discussion, defaults value need to be handled.
12:29:24 <danbri> lost audio
12:30:44 <AndyS> ... empty field returned.  Have a explicit "null" marker (999, whatever)
12:30:59 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:30:59 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:31:09 <AndyS> subtopic: packaging
12:31:11 <JeniT> http://w3ctag.github.io/packaging-on-the-web/
12:31:31 <AndyS> jenit: TAG work
12:31:40 <jtandy> the "999" marker would be declared in the metadata annotation as a token indicating a "null field" / missing field
12:32:00 <AndyS> ... need arises in various places
12:32:15 <AndyS> ... general need for web development
12:32:35 <AndyS> ... we need to do similar - CSV(s) and metadata
12:32:49 <JeniT> http://w3ctag.github.io/packaging-on-the-web/#downloading-data-for-local-processing
12:32:59 <AndyS> ... link to draft of the TAG direction with a specific example for this WG
12:33:17 <AndyS> ... individual file are still on the web
12:33:45 <AndyS> ... but that a "package fetch" pulls them all at once.
12:34:01 <AndyS> ... individual files LInk back to their metadata
12:34:25 <AndyS> ... streamable proposed based on multi-part
12:34:31 <AndyS> ... comments invited
12:34:43 <jtandy> ok - packaging stuff looks interesting
12:34:51 <phila> no questions but it's interesting, thank you
12:35:17 <AndyS> danbri: Other groups feedback?
12:35:35 <AndyS> jenit: no HTTP changes
12:35:52 <AndyS> danbri: what about HTTP layer optimizations? e.g. caching
12:36:08 <AndyS> jenit: overlap with HTTP/2
12:36:50 <AndyS> ... would need packaging aware caching to cache sub parts but format allows cache header per part
12:37:07 <AndyS> ... will write to the list
12:37:18 <AndyS> subtopic: metadata packaging
12:37:27 <AndyS> subtopic: metadata format
12:37:47 <jtandy> q+
12:37:48 <AndyS> jenit: hold back until we know what's in it
12:37:49 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:37:49 <Zakim> jtandy should no longer be muted
12:38:22 <AndyS> jtandy: been looking at "Simple Data Packaging" (now renamed) looks very close
12:38:30 <AndyS> ... start from that?
12:39:01 <AndyS> jenit:  Would be good to start from there - except it assumes JSON.
12:39:09 <danbri> q+ to say start from SDP as a *vocabulary* is fine, but something that fits with RDF is also important
12:39:16 <AndyS> ack jtandy
12:39:18 <JeniT> ack jtandy
12:39:27 <phila> q+
12:39:43 <AndyS> jtandy: start with the JSON assumption and see how it is received on WD
12:39:49 <JeniT> ack danbri
12:39:49 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to say start from SDP as a *vocabulary* is fine, but something that fits with RDF is also important
12:40:01 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:40:01 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:40:20 <jtandy> q+
12:40:22 <jtandy> zakim, unmute me
12:40:22 <Zakim> jtandy should no longer be muted
12:40:36 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:40:36 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:40:45 <AndyS> danbri: schema.org ==> vocabulary start good, but syntax of JSON only might be a barrier.
12:40:47 <AndyS> q+
12:40:55 <JeniT> ack phila
12:40:58 <phila> ack me
12:41:09 <jtandy> +1 to taking SDP metadata and expressing in RDF over JSON-LD
12:41:18 <jtandy> q-
12:41:43 <AndyS> phila: Uncomfortable if excludes the dataprotocols work when it need not.
12:42:01 <AndyS> ... significant community
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12:42:13 <JeniT> q?
12:42:15 <AndyS> ... at least add conversions to/from.
12:42:16 <JeniT> ack AndyS
12:42:46 <JeniT> AndyS: I think there was something that said the data package might become JSON-LD
12:42:47 <danbri> i can't find a good link for SDF, was it renamed?
12:42:58 <JeniT> ... I'd like to get a sense of how successful that format has been
12:43:05 <JeniT> ... and if there are any others
12:43:06 <danbri> http://dataprotocols.org/tabular-data-package/
12:43:23 <JeniT> ... I thought it was a good starting point, but I realised I didn't know what the reception had been
12:43:44 <AndyS> jenai: DSPL alternative
12:43:49 <AndyS> jenit: DSPL alternative
12:44:02 <danbri> DSPL is https://developers.google.com/public-data/ ; Omar I mentioned earlier was working to migrate this to schema.org / RDF / JSON world
12:44:11 <danbri> -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebSchemas/LookInside
12:44:20 <AndyS> ... used the format in our (ODI) tools
12:44:34 <AndyS> .. and providing feedback (ldodds)
12:45:00 <AndyS> ... would they contrib a draft?
12:45:36 <AndyS> phila: Rufus is IE in this WG because it helps align the work.
12:46:27 <AndyS> ... this WG will likely go beyond that work as extensions.  Maybe WG NOTE for existing work.
12:46:41 <danbri> I'd suggest we take it as expressivity requirements and we 'should' at least have a clear mapping
12:46:48 <AndyS> jenit: will contact Rufus
12:48:02 <AndyS> jenit: can we take into account data package work?
12:48:26 <JeniT> ... in the conversions
12:51:17 <JeniT> http://w3c.github.io/csvw/syntax/#package
12:51:41 <JeniT> q?
12:51:55 <AndyS> jenit: AOB?
12:51:56 <jtandy> q+
12:52:01 <JeniT> ack jtandy
12:52:17 <AndyS> jtandy: timescales?
12:52:36 <AndyS> ... next publication esp UCR doc?
12:52:58 <AndyS> phila: no lower limit on repub cycle
12:53:13 <AndyS> jtandy: Happen to move forward in May
12:53:32 <jtandy> s /Happen/Happy/
12:53:52 <AndyS> jenit: UCR will remain "open" to capture new discoveries.
12:54:21 <AndyS> jtandy: requirements are placeholders, more categorization and "accept" requirements
12:54:37 <AndyS> jenit: aim of mid May with more UCs.
12:54:42 <AndyS> ... ??
12:55:13 <jtandy> zakim, mute me
12:55:13 <Zakim> jtandy should now be muted
12:55:37 <AndyS> jenit: after Easter , process to accept requirements.
12:55:45 <danbri> zakim, who is on the phone?
12:55:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see fresco, AndyS, MathewT, phila, JeniT, DavideCeolin, danbri, jtandy (muted)
12:55:58 <AndyS> danbri: propose skip next week
12:56:06 <jtandy> +1 to skip
12:56:29 <AndyS> danbri to chair next time, 2 weeks time.  Wed after Easter.
12:56:34 <AndyS> ADJOURNED
12:56:34 <phila> DNM 23 April
12:56:36 <Zakim> -fresco
12:56:37 <Zakim> -JeniT
12:56:39 <Zakim> -danbri
12:56:40 <Zakim> -jtandy
12:56:40 <Zakim> -AndyS
12:56:41 <Zakim> -MathewT
12:56:42 <Zakim> -DavideCeolin
12:56:46 <Zakim> -phila
12:56:48 <Zakim> DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has ended
12:56:48 <Zakim> Attendees were AndyS, fresco, +1.937.207.aaaa, phila, JeniT, MathewT, DavideCeolin, danbri, +44.777.586.aabb, jtandy
12:56:53 <fresco> fresco has left #csvw
12:57:02 <phila> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:57:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-csvw-minutes.html phila
12:57:27 <phila> rrsagent, generate minutes
12:57:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/04/09-csvw-minutes.html phila
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13:02:47 <yakovsh> i am getting a message from the phone bridge that "this conference is restricted"
13:05:43 <yakovsh> got it, i am 1 hour early
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