We tabled the first agenda item, the discussion of the HTML5 Images resource page, until Mark could join, later in the meeting. Next on the agenda was consideration of the Easy Checks disclaimer. Discussion resolved with approval of the shaded box for the text but a decision to place the disclaimer in just one location on the page, right before the Expand All option. Otherwise the feeling was that it creates to much visual noise and distraction if placed in front of each and every check. There followed discussion of wiki Eval tool comments regarding the title of the Tool Developer Guide. EO felt that the title had been significantly improved to be "Developer [or Developer's or Developers']Guide to Features of Web Accessibility Evaluation Tools" and left the final grammatical decision to Shadi's WG to decide. Also approved the acronym "WAET Guide." Next up was a discussion of the Tutorials cover page and a recap of Tutorials Concept work done at CSUN F2F. Eric appreicated the wiki input and asked for everyone to continue adding thoughts and comments. Discussion followed about the additions and final disposition of the Procurement Resources on the EO wiki. While the intent is to polish the page a bit more and add to the WAI-Engage wiki, questions arose about how to promote wider participation. Citing lack of response to past efforts to engage people through WAI-Engage, a need was expressed to develop a more active outreach effort if we try this again. Sharron and Wayne will reach out to people they know with procurement responsibility to try to get their commitment of active engagement before we post the resource to WAI-Engage. In the meantime EO participants are encouraged to continue to post resources.
Mark joined the call and thanked EO for the wiki comments. He debriefed the group on the background of the HTML5 Images guide and the group expressed their appreciation of the document. Suggestions were made including: consider expanding the topics that are covered by this type of resource; if so, provide an additional folder with a common root; consider if there is a relationship to yourWAI; if so consider page type more closely related to Tutorials or WAI. Mark said there was little chance that other topics could be included at this time since HTML5 is progressing rapidly but will take suggestions for future consideration.
The meeting closed with a discussion of the new EO wiki structure, specifically the consolidation of meeting agendas, minute summaries and action items. While this is generally acceptable and even preferable for most participants, some expressed a preference for having at least some brief info about meetings on the EO home page. Additional discussion of the wiki in general surfaced problems with way-finding - what is supposed be commented upon and where to comment? - as well as the fact that pages grow to unwieldy lengths and become hard to navigate. Wayne reminded the group that he was entirely unable to navigate or use the wiki and felt that he missed a great deal of interaction - comments and responses - by being unable to use the wiki platform. Sharron will take these matters up with Shawn and welcomes further input about how to manage participation.<Sharron> http://www.w3.org/WAI/alt/
<yatil> WIKI: https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Alt_guidance
<Sharron> Background: https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Alt_guidance
<Sharron> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_Meetings#4_April_2014
<Sharron> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/eval/checks#domore
shadi: Mark said he could join toward the end of our meeting, he has a conflict for this time.
sharron: OK, we will table this topic until Mark can join.
sharron: based on feedback from CSUN, the disclaimer was felt to be needed to avoid people thinking that once they have completed the EasyChecks they are done, and in conformance.
<Denis> Counter proposal: These checks are not definitive and only cover some of the most basic accessibility issues.
<Wayne> +1
Sharron: feedback on Dennis' counter proposal
Wayne: likes Denis' counter-prop better
<Vicki> +1
+1 to Denis' counter proposal
<dboudreau> This check is not definitive and only covers some of the most basic accessibility issues.
Sharron: the proposal is to place the statement in each and every check, all the way down the page...what do folks think of that idea?
Denis: if putting on every check, statement should be singular "this check"
<dboudreau> This check is not definitive and only covers one of the most basic accessibility issue.
Sharron: Might people not then think that if they do all the checks, then they are being definitive?
<Andrew> what about positioning it just at the end of the list of checks before the 'expand all sections'?
Sharron: any more comments on the statement?
Andrew: could we just put it up in one place that is very obvious?
I would prefer to have it just once too - Howard
<Andrew> the yellow box is disruptive visually if it was in every section
Denis: also thinks it's disruptive
<dboudreau> +1
<yatil> +1 to Howard
<Vicki> +1
<Andrew> +1 to just onces
<Wayne> +1
<Helle> +1 to just once
Eric: also agrees that it's disruptive
Shadi: am concerned that easy checks would be seen as definitive but agrees with the problem that this (statement on every check) could be too disruptive.
<Bim> +1 to a single well-positioned instance - this is more obvious than it has been before
<Wayne> +1 single disclaimer or none
<Sharron> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Evaluation_tool_guidance
Sharron: in particular, want us to discuss the new title, which is ...
<shadi> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Evaluation_tool_guidance#previous
<shadi> "Developer Guide to Features of Web Accessibility Evaluation Tools"
Shadi: based on feedback from the working group, their preference is "Developer Guide to Features of Web Accessibility Evaluation Tools"
<Sharron> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Evaluation_tool_guidance#Title
Sharron: what did you want from EO today on this issue?
Shadi: there was a question of grammar - i.e. developer guide vs. developer's guide ...
Andrew: should be developers' guide
<shadi> "Developer Guide"
<shadi> "Developers' Guide"
Shadi: researched the term "developer guide" - seems a well known term ...
<shadi> "Developer's Guide"
also seen other variants (in irc above)
<LiamM> Usage - Developer Guide wins (http://www.google.co.uk/trends/explore#q=developer%20guide%2C%20developer's%20guide)... but I vote for the good grammar...
<Helle> I abstain
Shadi: Anna Belle - voted for "developer's" as best style
<dboudreau> there's slightly more results for "developer's guide" (650k) than "developers' guide" (500k)... but far more for "developer guide" (26.5M)
<dboudreau> according to MY google results ;p
<LiamM> (Pedants' Corner in Private Eye eventually compromised to 'Pedantry corner'... So... 'Developry Guide').
Wayne: if doesn't have an article "a" in front, should be plural - i.e. developers' guide
<Andrew> Use the apostrophe to show possession. Place the apostrophe before the s to show singular possession. - www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/apostro.asp
<yatil> Development Guide!
<LiamM> http://www.w3.org/2001/06/manual/
<Andrew> To show plural possession, make the noun plural first. Then immediately use the apostrophe - http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/apostro.asp
<Andrew> e.g. the Sanchezes' artwork
<Wayne> All references to "Hitchikers Guide" are listed "The Hitchiker's Guide" correct english
Shadi: to move forward will take back to the working group; would prefer not to have an apostrophe...
Shadi: is it a guide "on" features or "to" features?
<Andrew> to features
<Sharron> +1
Sharron: "to"
Shadi: regarding short name - looked for acronym - WAET guide
Sharron: "WAET" is pronounced "what" by JAWS
Shadi: seemed to be consensus on acronym within the working group...
... thought that they could have a short title with a long subtitle but couldn't come up with a combination that was clear enough
<Sylvie> no thoughts on title
<Andrew> gotta use good grammer!
Shadi: still not completely decided on the apostrophe
Sharron: This title is a big improvement over previous, the details can now be happily left to the discretion of the working group.
<Sharron> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Tutorials#Cover_page
Sharron: Eric, what would you like from us in terms of feedback?
Eric: wants opinion from group of different comments - not sure of preference at this point
Sharron: discussion of fact that people might need more background - especially if you land on the page without going through the cover page
... to Eric, is there anything that needs clarification or resolution; should we just keep commenting on the wiki?
Eric: cover page is open to changes - just keep comments coming on wiki.
... He will look through the comments and come up with some changes
<Sharron> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Tutorial_Concepts
Sharron: this is meant to be a debrief from the face to face - with Eric providing feedback on what was discussed and the work he did with Denis and Wayne.
Eric: discussed options of accordions vs. other widgets
<Andrew> with keyboard access also need to consider mobile platforms with no keyboard
Eric: got into discussion of keyboard access. Talked about having more principle tutorials such as "document outline" ...
... or topics such as keyboard navigation
... had some brainstorming on modaldialogues - screenreader problems related to this.
... with Wayne, we thought about another type of page that could show people other issues
... basic concepts that should be considered but not having tutorials on these topics.
... need to reorder the "tables tutorial" so that it fits together better conceptually.
<Andrew> +1 to tables starting with more conceptual things
Sharron: any additional comments?
Denis: What are our next steps to keep this moving forward?
Eric: I should have something ready regarding adjustment to table section by next week
... first thing he will do is taking tables and forms tutorial and getting them to start with a conceptual orientation.
Wayne: I am wondering about an EO procedural issue
... couldn't each section be approved as it's done rather than waiting for all the Tutorials before "publication?"
<Andrew> and take an iterative approach to enhancing them too?
Shadi: decision on landing page needs to be worked on before there is an approval or release of even this one tutorial.
Wayne: that makes sense.
Sharron: any other comments/questions?
<Andrew> concepts work is great
<Sharron> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Procurement_Resources#Accessible_Procurement_Resources
Sharron: haven't had much participation in WAI-ENGAGE wiki and this gathering or resources is thought to be an opportunity to get it started again.
<Andrew> I added several resources earlier today (and did some restructuring)
Sharron: In the past, we have attempted to get input by placing several resources into WAI-Engage.
... So I am interested in making a plan and thinking about how we invite participation from the larger community?
... Wondering if this will engage a larger audience than we have in the past? What will make people start to participate?
... maybe if we got some projects started on WAI-ENGAGE that would get folks paying attention and participating.
... I would like to develop an outreach plan to go with the placement of the resource on the wiki. Maybe at AccessCamps etc.
Andrew: This is a needed resource - I do think folks will pay attention to ENGAGE page and add comments.
Sharron: how will this happen?
... how will they even know that page is there to engage?
Denis: we can promote the page, could be a session at training camps.
... finds people who are interested but they don't know enough about participating.
Sharron: maybe we can all contact people who have procurement responsibilities.
... ask them that if we put in public space, will they contribute and participate?
Denis: folks always say they're interested when but they may feel intimidated to actually participate.
<Andrew> I have Denis' problem with getting people to engage too - interested, but don't participate
<Andrew> even outspoken people - end up being too busy
Sharron: should have more of a plan for promoting participation before we park the procurement information out on the wiki.
Denis: thinks it's a good idea to conduct training at accessibility camps.
... not a difficult session to put together.
Sharron: agrees that it shouldn't be difficult to put together.
... did one at CSUN when first started WAI-ENGAGE.
... please your ideas about "procurement resources" and how to get folks tied into WAI-ENGAGE.
<Sharron> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Alt_guidance#Draft_page
<Sharron> http://www.w3.org/WAI/alt/
Sharron: Welcome Mark, thanks for joining us. I have put links in IRC to the comments in wiki page and the draft resource page. How can we help?
Mark: looking at group's comments in wiki.
<Andrew> mark referes to http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
Mark: Synopsis of why page exists - to counter some of the stuff
... that had originally been put in the the html5 specification.
<Andrew> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/CR/embedded-content-0.html#alt
Mark: concern that once html5 becomes a recommendation, what if things change. How do we change things?
... decided they would link to resources on creating good alt text.
... want to structure this resource page so that it serves all the audiences. Feels they have resources for all audiences.
... would like to hear feedback on this entire approach. Will go through comments left on the wiki.
Denis: My only comment is that I like the idea of linking to these resources and creating this source location.
Mark: feedback already provided on wiki has been helpful.
Andrew: wonders if we should be doing this for other topics.
... for example, things like semantic structure and tables get a lot of debate.
... would be helpful to have resources in this area.
Mark: would be difficult to get links to resources in html5 document at this point because it's too close to moving to recommendation.
... but perhaps for html5.1, links to resources could be incorporated.
... may get feedback from html5 group that tutorials are not stable enough but he has responses prepared.
... for example, the images tutorial looks very good.
... Wants to make sure they have correct resources there.
... What's cool is that they can change the document - they have control over it.
Wayne: thinks this is a great resource - had wondered at value at first...done just right for developers. Glad its included.
Denis: another question - if adding more resources, shouldn't they all be in the same folder.
... would be nice to have pointers to other areas.
<Andrew> http://www.w3.org/WAI/Resources/ is a current page already
<Andrew> +1 to Denis
Denis: thinks perhaps folks should be pointed to a url that indexes help in a variety of areas.
Mark: Shawn originally didn't want folks to find this resource page except through html5 document.
Shadi: think the page is looking quite promising.
<Andrew> I think it is more valuable than just being available via HTML5
Shadi: this might be something for "your wai", a resource we have for finding right resources.
<Sharron> http://www.w3.org/WAI/yourWAI
Shadi: this version better explains which audience it is for but could be clarified more.
... wasn't clear which resource was for who.
... for example, the ePub group might benefit from this being right in html5.
... html5 spec - has many more examples that are not necessarily meant to be educational but to showcase different examples.
... Have you (Mark) discussed with Judy/Shawn about visual styling.
... where do we want to place this resource. Should it be part of WAI home page or is this a one-off?
... if is part of WAI home page, some placement within WAI home page would be useful.
Mark: quite a bit of discussion on visual look. Having the TR look came out of it being linked to through html5 recommendation.
... that was of concern to html5 WG.
... however, we do have option to change the page down the road.
... something to consider in the future. The input EO provided thus far has been very helpful.
Sharron: Thanks Mark for your time and let us know if we can help in the future.
<Sharron> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Main_Page#Main_Things
Sharron: any questions on how agenda is now in the wiki (example above)
... everything now arranged by topic.
... Go to action items and put some type of comment if it says "anyone else: everyone," even if it's to just say "abstain."
<Vicki> very helpful
Sharron: meant to be a way for folks to see what to do and what's current.
Helle: But now there is too little information about meetings on EO home page.
Sharron: Do you want more info back on the home page?
<dboudreau> this would be announced here, right? https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_Meetings
Helle: maybe just to see whether there's a meeting or not on a specific date.
<Andrew> forthcoming meeting dates on main page?
Helle: maybe a keyword, a short synopsis of agenda.
Andrew: maybe a link from the eo home page to the agenda. Move link to the front.
<yatil> I like it in the wiki.
Andrew: likes having history of agenda's in the wiki and not having to look for it in the minutes.
Helle: don't mind if we have the next month on the home page. If not sure if having a meeting, saying that on the home page.
Sylvie: And about the wiki, pages are very long, I am not always clear on where to comment and what still needs comments.
Sharron: agrees
<Helle> +1 to Sylvie's remarks
Eric: should think about moving more things out to other pages.
Sharron: we should archive segments that are no longer active. Not sure how to manage that however.
... for example, who decides when a section should be archived.
... will talk to Shawn about this. In the meantime, thanks everyone and have agood weekend.