15:16:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
15:16:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/02-css-irc
15:16:33 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:16:33 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 44 minutes
15:16:37 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:22:25 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #css
15:31:34 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #css
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15:53:03 <dael> dael has joined #css
15:57:32 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:57:39 <Zakim> +dael
15:57:51 <Zakim> +SGalineau
15:57:54 <dael> ScribeNick: dael
15:59:03 <Zakim> +??P16
15:59:08 <glazou> Zakim, ??P16 is me
15:59:08 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
15:59:47 <gregwhitworth> gregwhitworth has joined #css
15:59:57 <glenn> glenn has joined #css
16:00:33 <Zakim> + +1.858.354.aaaa
16:00:34 <Zakim> +??P21
16:00:44 <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P21 is me
16:01:02 <plinss> zakim, +1.858.354 is me
16:01:02 <SimonSapin> (probably)
16:01:02 <rhauck1> rhauck1 has joined #css
16:01:12 <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is plinss
16:01:23 <antonp> antonp has joined #css
16:01:25 <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
16:01:25 <Zakim> +plinss; got it
16:01:25 <Zakim> + +1.917.207.aabb
16:01:26 <Zakim> +glenn
16:01:28 <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
16:01:36 <dauwhe> Zakim, aabb is me
16:01:37 <Zakim> +dauwhe; got it
16:01:43 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:03:10 <gregwhitworth> Zakim, Microsoft has me
16:03:10 <Zakim> +gregwhitworth; got it
16:03:11 <Zakim> +fantasai
16:03:11 <Zakim> +rhauck
16:03:11 <Zakim> +Bert
16:03:11 <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aacc
16:03:11 <abinader> abinader has joined #css
16:03:18 <Zakim> + +37684aadd
16:03:19 <Zakim> +Plh
16:03:23 <antonp> Zakim, aadd is me
16:03:23 <Zakim> +antonp; got it
16:04:12 <dael> glazou: Let's start
16:04:25 <dael> glazou: First thing, any extra items?
16:04:27 <koji> koji has joined #css
16:04:40 <dael> SimonSapin: I'd like to talk about customidents
16:04:45 <dael> glazou: Anything else?
16:04:51 <dael> Topic: Publications requests
16:04:59 <glazou> http://tabatkins.github.io/specs/css-will-change/
16:05:02 <dael> glazou: First is will-change
16:05:04 <rhauck> rhauck has joined #css
16:05:08 <SimonSapin> s/customidents/<custom-ident>/
16:05:14 <dael> TabAtkins: We talked at last F2F.  It hasn't been published, it's just on my github.
16:05:25 <dael> ...: I'd like to publish it officially as a FPWD if possible
16:05:34 <Zakim> + +1.415.231.aaee
16:05:37 <Zakim> +??P58
16:05:55 <dael> TabAtkins: I'd prefer FP, but if I can't get that ED is fine, but I'd like to just publish if possible
16:05:58 <abinader> Zakim, ??P58 is me
16:05:58 <Zakim> +abinader; got it
16:06:00 <koji> zakim, +1.415.231.aaee is me
16:06:00 <Zakim> +koji; got it
16:06:04 <dael> glazou: What do people think?
16:06:18 <myakura> myakura has joined #css
16:06:23 <dael> ??: I still think it's strange and wonder if there's better, but no obj. It might help solve my issues
16:06:31 <fantasai> s/??/Bert/
16:06:44 <dael> glazou: I still think it's wierd, but I'm oky to pub.  I'd like to have this in the charter and reviewed, plh an updated?
16:07:00 <dael> plh: We're reordering the list in the chater, but we can add this
16:07:03 <gregwhitworth> LOL
16:07:08 <dael> glazou: Other opinions?
16:07:18 <Zakim> +dbaron
16:07:31 <dael> glazou: Microsoft, what fo you think?
16:07:44 <dael> glazou: Ah, dbaron joined.  We're discussing will-change from TabAtkins
16:07:48 <dael> dbaron: I'm in favor.
16:07:56 <arybka> arybka has joined #css
16:07:57 <dael> glazou: Other browser vendors
16:08:15 <dael> ???: I'm not too keen, but go ahead and publish.  Will-change just tells the browswer what's coming, right?
16:08:26 <dael> TabAtkins: Yes, it tells the browser a layer will change.
16:08:36 <glazou> s/???/greg
16:08:37 <dael> gregwhitworth: Go ahead and publish and we can hash it out later.
16:08:58 <dael> ??: I think it's wierd, but go ahead.  People are doing things to activate the DPU and this is better than that
16:09:04 <BradK> BradK has joined #CSS
16:09:06 <glazou> s/??/sylvaing
16:09:07 <dael> glazou: It seems we agree on FPWD, yes?
16:09:16 <dbaron> s/DPU/GPU/
16:09:19 <dael> ???: Just a question, what does it require?
16:09:25 <glazou> s/???/SimonSapin
16:09:29 <Zakim> +BradK
16:09:30 <MaRakow> MaRakow has joined #CSS
16:09:37 <dael> TabAtkins: It'll sometimes create stacking, but any other action is UI's discression and purely a hint
16:09:43 <dael> glazou: Any objection?
16:09:44 <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: isn’t it a hint, rather than dictating anything?
16:09:50 <sylvaing> It seems odd right now but is really no weirder than setting translateZ to force elements into their own layer on some browsers
16:09:54 <dael> RESOLVED: FPWD for will-change
16:09:58 <gregwhitworth> yeah
16:10:02 <dael> action plh to add will-change to charter
16:10:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-623 - Add will-change to charter [on Philippe Le Hégaret - due 2014-04-09].
16:10:06 <dael> glazou: Next is scoping
16:10:17 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:10:27 <dael> TabAtkins: Same deal, krit requested an extra week before FPWD so we can get extra comments, haven't had any.
16:10:38 <dael> fantasai: Is plh on the call?
16:10:49 <dael> fantasai: plh can you approve css-scoping shortname?
16:10:58 <dael> glazou: plh? He's probably away
16:11:07 <dael> plh: Yes. yes I can.
16:11:19 <dael> fantasai: The goal is to pub tomorrow so I have to submit away
16:11:27 <dael> glazou: We have nothing from krit and we left a week.
16:11:28 <MaRakow> Zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
16:11:28 <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
16:11:34 <fantasai> RRSAgent: pointer
16:11:34 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2014/04/02-css-irc#T16-11-34
16:11:41 <dael> RESOLVED: FPWD for CSS-scoping with the short name Scoping
16:11:53 <dael> Topic: follow up on Namespace
16:12:19 <dael> glazou: www-style ended up discussing behavoiur of OM when we insert in a style sheet
16:12:39 <dael> ...: I understand about reparsing the whole thing.  I would have considered that a mistake 10 years ago, but didn't detect
16:12:50 <fantasai> RRSAgent, pointer
16:12:50 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2014/04/02-css-irc#T16-12-50
16:13:00 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0502.html
16:13:00 <dael> ...: I still think we can make an errata to allow name instertion b/c it'll be rare and won't impact rendering engine or webpages.
16:13:09 <BradK> Still static
16:13:15 <dael> glazou: I'd like to hear from other vendors and see if we can start an errata
16:13:24 <Zakim> -MaRakow
16:13:32 <dael> TabAtkins: I agree. we can change to not throw away and changing namespace just makes it not normal.
16:13:37 <dael> glazou: Others?
16:13:51 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:14:00 <dael> SimonSapin: I think this is fine because we have selector fixed in OM anyway so propbly need to start as text and that's easy to reparse
16:14:22 <dael> glazou: I'm not sure. Selector text is stored only in case of rule you reserved and you're not reserving a rule if prefix is unknown
16:14:27 <Zakim> -glazou
16:14:31 <dael> dbaron: So you're saying if prefix is changed, rule stays
16:14:34 <glazou> sorry
16:14:36 <glazou> coming back
16:14:39 <dael> glazou: Rule stays but selects nothing
16:14:46 <dbaron> s/changed/unknown/
16:14:48 <dael> TabAtkins: That single type selector selects nothing, not the whole thing.
16:14:49 <Zakim> +??P16
16:15:02 <dael> ...: So you could use it in a not expression and it would become null?
16:15:12 <dael> SimonSapin: Ar eyou proposing it reads selectors in the OM?
16:15:34 <dael> glazou: Change the validity rule of selectors w/ unknow prefix.  They're currently invald, I say valid and selecting nothing.
16:15:42 <dael> SimonSapin: Oky
16:15:56 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
16:15:58 <dael> TabAtkins: So will the whole selector match nothing, or just that simple type selector
16:16:10 <dael> glazou: The case where one thing invalidates a whole group is for validity
16:16:11 <SimonSapin> s/it reads selectors/rules
16:16:17 <SimonSapin> s/it reads selectors/rules with invalid selectors show up/
16:16:27 <TabAtkins> :not(unknown|foo)
16:16:31 <dael> TabAtkins: What I mean is this (above)
16:16:51 <dael> TabAtkins: that should match nothing, but does that mean the whole selector matching nothing, or they type selector matches nothing?
16:17:08 <dael> glazou: It should be consistant.  So :not should select everything
16:17:14 <dael> TabAtkins: That's fine, I just wanted to be clear
16:17:24 <dael> ??: We just wanted it to be matches nothing at all
16:17:34 <dael> glazou: It seems there's agreement on what we want if we want something
16:17:47 <sylvaing> no objection
16:17:49 <dael> ...: Is there consensus about writing and errata, which I can do
16:17:52 <dael> ...: Any obj?
16:18:05 <dael> glazou: THen I will do it and we'll change the behaviour of unknown prefixes.
16:18:16 <dael> TabAtkins: I can make the edits to selectors and name space if needed.
16:18:22 <dael> ...: Well, whereever it is.
16:18:28 <dael> SimonSapin: I think it goes into selectors
16:18:31 <dael> glazou: Not only that.
16:18:41 <dael> SimonSapin: Namespace should be invalid for other specs
16:18:51 <SimonSapin> CSS qualified names can be used in (for example) selectors and property values as described in other modules. Those modules must define handling of namespace prefixes that have not been properly declared. Such handling should treat undeclared namespace prefixes as a parsing error that will cause the selector or declaration (etc.) to be considered invalid and, in CSS, ignored.
16:18:55 <dael> SimonSapin: Namespace spec says...(above)
16:19:08 <dael> SimonSapin: This bit talks about other specs and it has a should for the specs
16:19:11 <Zakim> +??P66
16:19:30 <dael> glazou: this is a hole in all the specs and everything deives from a 14 year old spec.  We'll have to mod in multiple locations.
16:19:33 <dael> SimonSapin: Okay.
16:19:42 <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: with updating both
16:19:55 <dael> RESOLVED: Modification of the validity of an unknown prefix in selectors and insertion of namespace rules
16:20:15 <dael> SimonSapin: You say insertion?
16:20:31 <dael> glazou: They're currently throwing an exception if there's anything beyond insertion point?
16:20:39 <Bogdan_Brinza> Bogdan_Brinza has joined #css
16:20:40 <dael> SimonSapin: So they're only allowed to insert where valid?
16:20:42 <dael> glazou: Yes yes.
16:20:52 <dael> glazou: We're not saying they're allowed anyhere
16:20:59 <dael> s/anyhere/anywhere
16:21:01 <dael> Topic: followup on subgrid
16:21:10 <dael> glazou: Anything to say?
16:21:19 <dael> TabAtkins: Is fantasai there?
16:21:21 <dael> fantasai: Yes.
16:21:37 <dael> glazou: And is she willing to discuss?
16:21:44 <dael> fantasai: I maintain position as started before.
16:21:48 <dael> glazou: So that was short
16:22:05 <dael> TabAtkins: We brought it up so we can resolve one way or another.  Subgrid in 1 or move to 2
16:22:14 <dael> fantasai: I'll obj if we punt
16:22:23 <dael> SimonSapin: Does it make sense to mark as at-risk?
16:22:31 <dael> fantasai: I'm not sure.  It's accessability, not something nice
16:22:39 <dael> SimonSapin: What do you mean accessability?
16:22:53 <SimonSapin> s/SimonSapin/sylvaing
16:23:00 <SimonSapin> (once)
16:23:10 <dael> fantasai: Let's say you have a form with grid layout and in order to use it you remove strutural elements to make a list, you've removed the structural stff and now people can't understand without the grid
16:23:21 <dael> ...: That stucture is gone and you had to remove it to use grid
16:23:27 <dael> SimonSapin: You don't need to do it for flex
16:23:31 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:23:41 <dael> fantasai: No.  You may need extra spans and divs, but that's adding extra not removing
16:23:42 <florian> florian has joined #css
16:23:55 <dael> SimonSapin: Yes, but that you need to alter your markup doesn't mean it doesn't have value
16:24:05 <SimonSapin> s/SimonSapin/sylvaing
16:24:08 <SimonSapin> (twice more)
16:24:17 <dael> fantasai: If we shift as-is people will strip their markup b/c they want grid, not caring about it working for non-visual consumers
16:24:29 <dael> SimonSapin: So you establish grid isn't super-cool, there's still value
16:24:50 <SimonSapin> (I give up :) )
16:24:52 <dael> fantasai: Even where you have something like a front-page, you'll still have problems.  I have examples listed and they're common cases.
16:25:09 <dael> fantasai: This will be worse than what we have today
16:25:20 <gregwhitworth> Can you link to the examples
16:25:23 <dael> ...: Today with the layout hacks it's bad, but they don't stip things
16:25:32 <dael> sylvaing: I'm not sure stripping stuff is the only way
16:25:36 <dael> ...: I've seem things added.
16:25:38 <gregwhitworth> Of the accessibility problems
16:25:39 <Bert> s/stip/strip/
16:25:56 <dael> TabAtkins: Point remians it's still complex and if we want to impl vefore shipping, it'll slow the feature
16:26:23 <dael> fantasai: But if you don't you'll have a whole class of webaouthors learn without subgrid and they'll jsut keep doing it.
16:26:38 <dael> TabAtkins: People will learn as time goes on and subgrid is easier so when it's there it'll be used
16:26:53 <dael> glazou: You guys are disagreeing and I don't think we'll solve it in next 25 min.
16:27:02 <dael> ...: I suggest we go to e-mail and we move-on.
16:27:27 <dael> sylvaing: I think we should stay on use-cases and the before and after.  WE shouldn't speculate on what people will do.  Early adoptor will adapt.
16:27:53 <dael> ...: If we fear people won't pick up a level 2 thing, we fear the benefits won't be obvious.  Let's not speculate, let's look at use cases
16:28:12 <dael> glazou: We have something from sylvaing on animations and one from SimonSapin
16:28:16 <dael> Topic: Animations
16:28:22 <dael> sylvaing: Let me pull them.
16:28:26 <sylvaing> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25107
16:28:29 <dael> sylvaing: This should be the easier
16:28:49 <dael> ...: So this one is about the format of the string arguement for findRule() and deleteRule()
16:29:02 <dael> ...: The spec said it's a # between 0 and 1, but that's only IE.
16:29:18 <dael> ...: Everyone else never did that. Geicko, webkit,blink uses percentage.
16:29:33 <dael> ...: That's consistant with how you write it and how it's in the OM so it's more usable
16:29:53 <dael> ...: So I think we should change to Geicko approach.  I think IE can keep it, but everynoe should support %
16:30:01 <dael> glazou: What about keywords from and to?
16:30:15 <Zakim> -glazou
16:30:19 <dael> sylvaing: They work.  I think they match their corrisponding values everywhere.
16:30:22 <glazou> GLARGL
16:30:24 <dael> glazou: I support change
16:30:42 <dael> dbaron: In geicko we use the same as appear on the stylesheet.
16:30:49 <Zakim> +??P16
16:30:54 <glazou> Zakim, ??P16 is me
16:30:54 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
16:30:55 <dbaron> s/same as/same parsing that we do when they/
16:30:55 <dael> sylvaing: So any concern from Microsoft?
16:30:58 <TabAtkins> s/geicko/gecko/g
16:31:01 <dael> gregwhitworth: Sounds reasonable.
16:31:20 <dael> sylvaing: Anyone using IE needs to patch in the numbers, so as long as you guys support both it'll work
16:31:31 <dael> ...: I think you want to keep the old one and add support
16:31:48 <MaRakow> s/gregwhitworth/MaRakow/
16:31:52 <dael> RESOLVED: Use percentage values for findRule() and deleteRule()
16:31:56 <dael> sylvaing: That's one.
16:32:19 <sylvaing> RESOLVED: use percentage values for key arguments and map from/to keywords to 0% and 100% respectively
16:32:34 <dael> sylvaing: Next one.
16:32:39 <sylvaing> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0497.html
16:32:57 <dael> sylvaing: This was also one of glazou issues.  Clarifys keyframe rules when they get keys
16:33:11 <dael> ...: Spec says if multi keyframe rules have same keyvalue the last one is accepted.
16:33:29 <dael> ...: In the e-mail what we expect from the prose and the bwoswers is what the text says.
16:33:44 <dael> ...: Gecko is doing interesting cascading in the rule.  It's doing on a property basis.
16:34:05 <dael> dbaron: I feel what gecko is doing is correct.  We discussed this a few years ago and maybe res.
16:34:16 <dael> sylvaing: I tried to look, but don't remember.  Can you elaborate?
16:34:27 <dael> dbaron: It's hard for me to switch this into my head
16:35:06 <dael> TabAtkins: One ex as to why it's better, if you're doing several loosly related animations and want to do all width at one point and backgrounda t a different and they land on same keyframe, it's nice to keep sep
16:35:19 <dael> sylvaing: If you want to change the width on the keyframe and you don't lose the rest, though
16:35:29 <dael> glazou:  udnerstand usecase, but we have problem with object model.
16:35:38 <dael> ...: When you find something from keyframe, you get one rule only
16:36:05 <dael> sylvaing: That's another issue.  Some of you questions, you cannot expect the OM to give you everything.  When you look at browser you get a bunch of text you edit
16:36:15 <dael> ...: We can talk about that with findRule() question
16:36:25 <dael> glazou: I mentioned it since whatever you pick there's an OM change
16:36:33 <dael> sylvaing: Maybe, but there might be other reasons to change
16:36:52 <dael> ...: So only Gecko does thing right now.  Sounds good to me, but it's a significant change and I'd like to hear from other vendors
16:37:03 <dael> TabAtkins: I can ask about compt athoughs.  I'm fine.
16:37:13 <dael> glazou: Anyone from apple on call?  I'd like to hear from them.
16:37:18 <dael> sylvaing: IE too
16:37:28 <dael> ??: For the OM question, I'd like to think about that more
16:38:03 <dael> sylvaing: I'm less concerned about OM since there's so much compat issues.  It's more that we're changing the concept so something may break.  BUt there's a lot of breakage so we could talk to firefox
16:38:13 <dael> glazou: Okay, so do you want an action to investage?
16:38:27 <dael> action sylvaing investigate the opinons of other browsers
16:38:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-624 - Investigate the opinons of other browsers [on Sylvain Galineau - due 2014-04-09].
16:38:55 <dael> sylvaing: I have one question for webkit and blink engines, everyone agrees about appendRule, but they still have insertRule for legacy reasons
16:39:05 <dael> ...: If they can fix it, that's awesome.
16:39:10 <dael> TabAtkins: I'll ask about compat.
16:39:18 <dael> sylvaing: You could add append to the old one
16:39:27 <dael> TabAtkins: We can add.  There's nothing wrong with that
16:39:34 <dael> sylvaing: It's more supporting both
16:39:37 <sylvaing> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25035
16:39:38 <dael> sylvaing: Next one.
16:39:47 <MaRakow> s/??/MaRakow
16:39:51 <dael> sylvaing: keytext prop again.  It's handling values in the spec
16:40:11 <dael> ...: It's also not compat.  You have keytext for the rule and when you put something invalid Gecko doesn't do anything
16:40:19 <dael> ...: Blink and IE throw and do no update
16:40:24 <dael> ...: Webkit just applies it
16:40:36 <dael> sylvaing: So we have three possibility and they're all out there
16:40:51 <dael> ...: Honestly, I don't have a strong opinion.  Webkit seems silly, but I understand it.
16:41:08 <dael> glazou: I ended up doing the same tst and from editor view I'd prefer throwing
16:41:17 <dael> TabAtkins: So this interacts with two issues back
16:41:25 <dael> glazou: Yes, you can set invalid and something existing
16:41:26 <TabAtkins> s/TabAtkins/dbaron/
16:41:40 <dael> dbaron: So sylvaing e-mail is about the invalid?
16:41:56 <dael> sylvaing: Let's keep the issues sep.  So bogus values first.
16:42:08 <dael> ...: What do we do if you put foobar as a keytext valid
16:42:24 <dael> ...: I'm okay with antyhing, but Gecko doing nothing seems the worse since you don't know what happens
16:42:36 <dael> dbaron: I didn't throw since the spec didn't say it, but it's a one line change
16:42:47 <dael> TabAtkins: related, but should I make counterstyle rules throw?
16:42:53 <dael> glazou: For consistancy, yes.
16:43:07 <dael> glazou: So does anyone obj to throwing an error when keytext is invalid?
16:43:10 <dbaron> throwing sounds fine as long as you say what exception to throw :-)
16:43:15 <dael> sylvaing: That's the most common
16:43:29 <dael> RESOLVED: Keytext on setting invalid value should throw
16:43:41 <dael> sylvaing: You set a keytext to avalid value that already exists in rule
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16:43:53 <dael> ...: What I've seen in browsers is that the rule is updated in place.
16:44:05 <dael> ...: Order is what's specificed and not effect.
16:44:23 <dael> ...: I guess I want to know what we would do...It's easier if you're not on Gecko model and you're not cascading
16:44:32 <dael> glazou: I think we have to solve the older issue before that one
16:44:41 <dael> sylvaing: That okay.  Sounds like a good F2F topic
16:44:44 <dael> ...: Okay.
16:44:49 <dael> glazou: Anything else on animations?
16:44:52 <dael> sylvaing: Let me see
16:44:58 <dael> sylvaing: One more.
16:45:00 <sylvaing> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25034
16:45:16 <dael> sylvaing: This one about which rule gets found when you have duplicate keys.
16:45:28 <dael> ..: You have 3 20% rules, so which do you pick.
16:45:35 <rhauck> rhauck has joined #css
16:45:43 <dael> ...: No compat.  IE removes the one that applies
16:45:56 <dael> ... Blinka nd Webkit do the first one first so they endup backwards.
16:46:03 <dael> ...: Gecko is complex from cascade
16:46:15 <dael> glazou: This also depend on order.  We need a model before instructing the API
16:46:25 <dael> sylvaing: I have one more, but it'll also depend on the discussion.
16:46:42 <dael> sylvaing: I'll start a new thread on the ML and ask for specific compat feedback from rowser
16:46:51 <dael> Topic: <custom-ident>
16:47:02 <dael> SimonSapin: A few weeks ago we discussed a change to the values in the spec
16:47:13 <dael> ...: We made a change and people disagreed on what the change should end up being
16:47:25 <dael> ...: This is about what keyword should be disallowed to be custom-idents
16:47:42 <dael> ...: Right now CSS-wide keywords are defaults for disallowed.
16:47:53 <dael> ...: In addition anything that might be ambigous is disallowed
16:48:17 <dael> ...: After I discussed with fantasai we thought it might be good to have the same rule for all custom-ident
16:48:32 <dael> ...: It seems we don't have consensus on what behaviour should be
16:49:09 <dael> fantasai: Makes sense to exclude global keywords.  For other case such as grdlines where in the definition they're unabm. but in use they're amb. I think the spec will have to call out explicitly
16:49:39 <dael> fantasai: I don't think we can make a universal rule.  If there's a more indirect connection between ambigous and invalid such as with grid, I think that will need to say so
16:50:00 <dael> ...: We may want a note in one spec that other specs should consider those for invalid.  One thing I'm not sure of is shorthands
16:50:13 <dael> ...: It could be one thing is unamb in longhand, but amb in shorthand
16:50:31 <dael> TabAtkins: We can't do much generally anyway b/c we occationally make longhands into a shorthand
16:50:48 <dael> ...: So if we make something that will automatically walk up the tree it might not work
16:51:05 <dael> ...: If you use in longhand vs using in short hand, different values might be exluded.
16:51:13 <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0582.html
16:51:14 <Zakim> -glenn
16:51:28 <dael> ...: It might be okay to define a counter style in one place but not somewhere since it conflicts witht he keyowrd
16:51:58 <Zakim> +glenn
16:51:59 <dael> fantasai: Alternatively, we could have a rule where the shorthand unless otherwise said you parse from start to end and try your best so you would prioritize keyword over custom-ident
16:52:17 <dael> ...: so style is found first and than we looka t custome-ident
16:52:29 <dael> dbaron: There's a bunch with parsing issues like this that we've solved.
16:52:38 <dael> ...: One is list style shorthand where two prop take a none value
16:53:06 <dael> ...: So we have to allow two none.  If you're parsing you can't find a none and decide.  You find a none, count the number, and see if you have more nones than props that can take nones
16:53:16 <dael> ...: Similar for animations and transitions except worse.
16:53:49 <dael> ...: Transition and animation accept arbitarty things and in Gecko we attempt to parse the other things first.  Only if they haven't already been found
16:53:59 <dael> ...: I think you can see animation easein easein
16:54:12 <glazou> s/easein/ease-in
16:54:14 <dael> ...: The first is timing, second is name and that makes dynamic changes messy.
16:54:33 <dael> ...: And I dont know how interop that is, thought the list-style thing it interop
16:54:56 <dael> TabAtkins: Do we just conclude exclude global keywords and discuss more about ambiguities on the list?
16:55:06 <dael> glazou: I think that's a fair conclusion to the discussion
16:55:17 <sylvaing> what happens with new global keywords?
16:55:21 <dael> SimonSapin: If we can come up with a general rule, we can decide about line names
16:55:22 <dbaron> s/than props that/than unspecified props that/
16:55:29 <dael> TabAtkins: WE can do that on the ML, that's fine.
16:55:40 <dael> glazou: So we'll continue discussing this
16:55:46 <dael> glazou: Anything else on this SimonSapin?
16:55:54 <dael> glazou: So wwe have 4 minutes.  Anything to discuss?
16:56:00 <dael> fantasai: The que unit?
16:56:00 <SimonSapin> s/If we can come up/If we can’t come up/
16:56:07 <TabAtkins> q unit
16:56:22 <dael> fantasai: There's a proposal on the ML about adding a que unit since that's common in japanse, but it didn't go anywhere
16:56:39 <dael> ...: Since we have to pass through lc for values and units, so we want to add it?
16:56:53 <dael> sylvaing: I don't htink there were any major obj except the usual suspects
16:57:02 <dael> fantasai: So any opinions?  I can just add it in
16:57:06 <dael> TabAtkins: I'm fine with adding it
16:57:14 <dael> SimonSapin: I'm fine with adding.
16:57:20 <dael> glazou: Okay.  Anything else?
16:57:20 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Nov/0302.html
16:57:37 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-values/issues-cr-2013
16:57:52 <dael> fantasai: We should publish new for values once we resolve the issues.
16:58:08 <dael> glazou: I suggest we close for now.  I'll miss the next call, but I'll talk to you next time.
16:58:08 <Zakim> -SGalineau
16:58:10 <Zakim> -dbaron
16:58:11 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:58:12 <Zakim> -glenn
16:58:12 <Zakim> -Bert
16:58:13 <Zakim> -dauwhe
16:58:14 <Zakim> -BradK
16:58:15 <Zakim> - +1.281.305.aacc
16:58:15 <Zakim> -antonp
16:58:16 <Zakim> -glazou
16:58:16 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
16:58:17 <Zakim> -dael
16:58:36 <Zakim> -abinader
16:58:40 <Zakim> -??P66
16:58:46 <Zakim> -SteveZ
16:58:58 <Zakim> -koji
16:59:04 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Add q unit to Values and Units
16:59:13 <fantasai> (consensus declared by plinss)
16:59:14 <Zakim> -Plh
16:59:17 <Zakim> -SimonSapin
16:59:20 <Zakim> -fantasai
16:59:24 <Zakim> -rhauck
16:59:26 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
16:59:26 <Zakim> Attendees were dael, SGalineau, glazou, +1.858.354.aaaa, SimonSapin, plinss, +1.917.207.aabb, glenn, dauwhe, gregwhitworth, fantasai, rhauck, Bert, +1.281.305.aacc, +37684aadd,
16:59:26 <Zakim> ... Plh, antonp, abinader, koji, dbaron, BradK, [Microsoft], MaRakow, SteveZ
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17:31:35 <tantek> sorry to miss today! belated regrets - I'm at the W3C Web #Annotation workshop (yes that's the IRC channel for it)
17:31:50 <tantek> (assuming IRC channels are case-insensitive)
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21:20:23 <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: Bikeshed auto-generates the property index table at the end of specs, right? Could it link back to the property definitions?
21:20:46 <TabAtkins> Does it not?
21:20:52 <TabAtkins> If so, definitely.  File an issue for me?
21:21:11 <SimonSapin> is Writing Modes or Grid on Bikeshed?
21:21:25 <TabAtkins> Grid is.  I dont' think WM is yet, but it might be.
21:21:28 <TabAtkins> I forget if I've converted it yet.
21:21:40 <TabAtkins> Yeah, it is.
21:21:49 <TabAtkins> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-writing-modes/Overview.bs
21:22:43 <SimonSapin> filed
21:23:16 <TabAtkins> Me and Shane are collaborating on some Bikeshed upgrades right now.  krit will be happy to hear we're adding more markdown features ^_^
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21:57:40 <SimonSapin> Emergency Bikeshedding as a service
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21:58:36 <hober> SimonSapin: with Uber-like surge pricing every Wednesday at 9 AM PT
22:00:21 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: I'll do it for you if you want.
22:01:00 <sylvaing> TabAtkins: that's very kind but this is my first chance to really take it through its paces so I'll go for it. I'll probably have questions though.
22:01:06 <TabAtkins> kk
22:01:20 <TabAtkins> But I can normalize your text formatting at the same time?
22:01:26 <TabAtkins> That was supposed to be !.
22:02:21 <sylvaing> TabAtkins: I mean, you already re-formatted the whole thing once.
22:02:33 <TabAtkins> That was a public service to the *world*.
22:02:40 <TabAtkins> That shit was an *abomination*.
22:02:46 <sylvaing> TabAtkins: given standard interest rates, multiple scotches are already owed on this one
22:02:56 <sylvaing> TabAtkins: it was horrendous
22:03:11 <TabAtkins> It's almost as if some people don't break out in hives if the source code is formatted badly. Weird.
22:03:26 <sylvaing> TabAtkins: only someone who also dealt with MSDN could have put up with it *cough*
22:03:28 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: I'll take delivery of any decent bourbon.
22:03:45 <TabAtkins> If you need suggestions, Blantons is nice.
22:03:54 <sylvaing> TabAtkins: shit, I don't know Blantons.
22:04:57 <sylvaing> TabAtkins: latest awesome I've had was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_McKenna
22:05:12 <sylvaing> TabAtkins: hell to find, however
22:05:59 <TabAtkins> Ooh, sounds nice.
22:06:17 <sylvaing> it's quite amazing
22:06:35 <sylvaing> I've been more of a Japanese whiskey person lately but this stuff is quite magical
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23:39:05 <TabAtkins> fantasai: You're in control of the current-work page, right?  Can you add MQ4 to it?
23:39:13 <TabAtkins> It's currently -, planned to be WD.
23:39:24 <TabAtkins> (I have a resolution to publish it from Seattle, but haven't finished edits yet.)
23:41:52 <fantasai> OK
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